215 réponses à ce sujet

[Urk]

Yeah... I'm not reading that.

MM: Where did you get the stats on this "average gamer" you keep citing? I tried to Google the figures and couldn't find any actual research on the subject. Personally I don't know anyone that spends that much money on new games, but I'm old. Most of my friends wait until the game is down to 20 bucks before buying, and then we play it for a few months before we get bored and move on to something else.

Except NWN of course. I'll be playing that until I die.

I will concede that such players exist, however, and I DO see a HUGE difference between people who overspend on new titles and people who flush their money down the MMO toilet.

The difference is that each game offers new assets, new art, a new experience, and employs a different team of designers and merchants. Each game offers VALUE.

WebShaman wrote...

That said, I am still boggling at the amount of revenue that WoW is sucking in. It is a huge amount for a game, occuring on a regular basis. I still cannot fathom how anyone can claim that they are anywhere near getting back in value for pay-to-play in comparison to the play-for-free model.

Actually I think you'll find an increasing number of P2P MMO players would agree with that.

MMOs are particularly pernicious in that most people aren't paying for the value of the game, they are playing for the value of the time they've invested in playing it. After spending months or years grinding on and developing a toon the time invested takes on a value of it's own. You don't want to give up your character and "possetions" because you worked so hard to get them.

That's the true genius of P2P. They have actually found a way to get people to pay them to add value to the game for them.

[MagicalMaster]

SuperFly_2000 wrote...

Oh, please edit your
post....its ridiculusly long and I think we will still get it if you
remove most of that mastodont quote....no one is saying that WoW players
are dumb....at least I am not....I would just like a more NWN1 looking
game more...

Actually, Lazarus said

"I would be shocked if building (and playing) a WOW toon were nearly as complex as building and playing a NWN 1 toon."

So...yeah.  But I removed it.

SuperFly_2000 wrote...

1) Game is designed to be viewed from different camera angles and distances than WoW. Giving strategical overview in combat, more of a pen and paper feeling when moving around...versus WoW which gives more a first person shooter feeling.
2) It uses the superior D&D system almost to full extent. Combat is more slow paced and strategical.
3) ...and maybe most importantly....the game is designed around roleplaying in a way WoW isn't. Like I said...its more slow paced and playing as a team is usually very important...especially in low levels .... very unlike WoW...where level 1's are mindless bots that never communicate...anyway....you have to rest to replenish spells also and usually have more business back to town than in WoW where you usually meet the other players and so on....

1. Er, I play scrolled further out in WoW than I do in NWN.  Where are you getting the impression WoW is like a first person shooter instead of strategic/tactical?

2. This video doesn't look strategical?  What exactly do you mean by strategical?  And I am seriously curious, why do you consider D&D combat mechanics to be superior?

3. Playing as a team is essential in any of the serious end game content (raids, arenas, rated battlegrounds, or dungeons).  Why do you think it's important that the first few levels in an online game are very tedious and slow?  I mean, if the *entire* game is supposed to be that slow-paced, sure, but otherwise shouldn't the first few levels be easier and introduce the player to the game and controls?   But no, the game isn't designed around roleplaying.

Urk wrote...

MM: Where did you get the stats on this "average gamer" you keep citing? I tried to Google the figures and couldn't find any actual research on the subject. Personally I don't know anyone that spends that much money on new games, but I'm old. Most of my friends wait until the game is down to 20 bucks before buying, and then we play it for a few months before we get bored and move on to something else.

Assuming you're talking about spending habits and not the age thing, right?

Trying to find something more than random anecdotes currently, but here's a figure you might find interesting.

Americans spent $3.8 billion on MMOs during 2009.

Meanwhile, the total amount spent on video games overall by Americans?  $25.3 billion.

Anf if you look at this handy chart...



You'll notice that MMO's only comprise about 8% of total revenue.  Obviously 8% of $25.3 billion is $2.02 billion and not $3.8 billion, but both figures indicate MMOs are a small segment of the overall video game market.  And especially for console gamers, who spent roughly four times more than PC games.

In short, you could make every MMO simply vanish, including WoW, and it would barely scratch the video game revenue of the USA.

Urk wrote...

The difference is that each game offers new assets, new art, a new experience, and employs a different team of designers and merchants. Each game offers VALUE.

Each patch in WoW offers new assets, new art, and a new experience.  Doubly so for expansions.  I find that offers value, and I've yet to see another game that has high end PvE content like WoW.  Do you know of another game that has solid raiding?  Because NWN certainly doesn't, and both SWTOR and Rift has terrible knock-offs of WoW raiding, basically where WoW was years ago.

And even if I liked SWTOR and Rift's raiding, both require a subscription as far as I'm aware, so it's not like I'm suddenly saving a ton of money.

In short, WoW is unique in that it offers me what I want, and I'm willing to pay for it.

Urk wrote...

MMOs are particularly pernicious in that most people aren't paying for the value of the game, they are playing for the value of the time they've invested in playing it. After spending months or years grinding on and developing a toon the time invested takes on a value of it's own. You don't want to give up your character and "possetions" because you worked so hard to get them.

That's the true genius of P2P. They have actually found a way to get people to pay them to add value to the game for them.

Isn't that true of any MMO or PW, regardless of the payment model?

Modifié par MagicalMaster, 30 août 2012 - 07:26 .

[Lazarus Magni]

Ok, my bad MM, you got me. Basically WOW is a NWN knock off, with less diversity and modability, and yet pay to play, and even worse pay to win.

You have 9 classes, we have 22. You can specialize, we can multiclass.

In effect WOW, has half of the capability of NWN, and was a beautiful knock off, and yet 10x the earning potential, mostly because of it’s marketing, and P2P and pay to win (and get paid to play) dynamics.

Tell me? Can you make a mod on WOW where assassins use intelligence for AB and AC? We can. Can you make a mod where people need to get food and water to survive? We can. Can you do a 1000 other amazing things modders of NWN 1 have been able to do, and share it in a multiplayer format? We can. Can you create an environment that is completely to your own liking, and what you would like to see in such a game? We can.

It’s true, I am no WOW expert, but I do know one thing for damn sure. WOW is no NWN 1, and NWN 1 is no WOW. Thank goodness for that.

My only hope, in this regard, is we might see a modern day equivalent of NWN 1. What is your hope?

[WebShaman]

MM said :

WoW gives quite a few types of entertainment.

1, leveling, which many people find fun in and of itself. As I said, it can easily take 100+ hours to level a character, and then you can start another.
2, dungeons, which are 5 man PvE content designed to be done in 30-60 minutes
3, raids, which are 10-25 player PvE content that is designed to be completed over the course of months with difficult bosses and the best rewards. This is what I play the game for
4. Looking for Raid, an automated and drastically easier version of raids with worse rewards to let bad players or players with chaotic schedules see the lore of the raids
5. Battlegrounds, both just random PvP or in rated and ranked teams (10-40 person content) which is focused on objectives
6. Arenas, which is either 2v2, 3v3, or 5v5 deathmatch PvP
7. Social experience. Many people like WoW just because they interact with people, they like being in an online world
8. Vanity/cosmetic items, such as pets, mounts, banners, and such which can be earned
9. Reputation and daily questing, working your way into the graces of various factions and helping change the world
10. Achievements, which can give you nerd points for doing other stuff in specific ways

And scenarios, which are 3 person very obective focused PvE content, are going to be released soon as well. No traditional tank or healer required for these, very dynamic.

Saying these are all the same thing is like saying watching TV is watching TV. They appeal to very different audiences.

No, what you are describing is what one gets for *one* subscribed channel - various different shows all based on the same *theme*.

You are not getting different MMOs based on different themes (like WoW, Rifts, Warhammer, etc all in one).

The biggest difference between WoW MMO style and NWN IMHO (apart from the RP aspect) is that I can add content to NWN at my fancy. Thus, when including, say, the PRC, my choice of classes, Races, etc increase exponentially - something one cannot do with WoW MMO style games.

I can even set up my PW like this - as long as my Players have access to the content needed to play.

This ability to "tailor-make" NWN to one's own preference, is, IMHO, the biggest difference there is between the two styles. And it is free-to-play.

Urk said :

MMOs are particularly pernicious in that most people aren't paying for the value of the game, they are playing for the value of the time they've invested in playing it. After spending months or years grinding on and developing a toon the time invested takes on a value of it's own. You don't want to give up your character and "possetions" because you worked so hard to get them.

That's the true genius of P2P. They have actually found a way to get people to pay them to add value to the game for them.

Ahhh...now we are starting to get somewhere! Now this bit of text describes exactly what I have been hearing from "burn-out" suffering ex-WoWers. Especially the bit of text from MM describing typical hardcore Clan/Guild behavior and expectations.

You have high pressure from peers to play, and the "value factor" that keeps building up the longer you play, that keeps you from being able to quit.

Interesting.

I am now beginning to understand the references used to "crack" here, used by some who have quit WoW.

So why would anyone want to do this to themselves?

Play NWN, where you have a .bic of your online Character that you can play offline with when you get fed up (or whatever) playing online. Granted, you will probably not be able to take that Character to another PW - but you could try to recreate it (assuming it is possible).

One thing I do wish to discuss a bit here with MM - you say you can reach max level in, what, 100+ hours of play in WoW??!!

That is pretty quick!

So...that is obviously under a month ala $15. So what do you do with your...time after that? Items gathering? Or are the raids really made for those who have maxed? And I suppose the only feeling of accomplishment is "beating" the raid-made boss, right (besides whatever item(s) one receives)?

[MagicalMaster]

Lazarus Magni wrote...

Ok, my bad MM, you got me. Basically WOW is a NWN knock off, with less diversity and modability, and yet pay to play, and even worse pay to win.

What?  The whole point of the P2P is that it is NOT P2W.  Where in the world are you getting that?  There is ZERO money you can spend to give you an advantage in-game.

Lazarus Magni wrote...

You have 9 classes, we have 22. You can specialize, we can multiclass.

There is more difference between the three specializations of Warrior in WoW than between  Fighter, Barbarian, Weapon Master, and Dwarven Defender.  It would practically be apt to say "WoW has 34 classes, NWN has 22 classes and can multiclass."

Lazarus Magni wrote...

Tell me? Can you make a mod on WOW where assassins use intelligence for AB and AC? We can. Can you make a mod where people need to get food and water to survive? We can. Can you do a 1000 other amazing things modders of NWN 1 have been able to do, and share it in a multiplayer format? We can. Can you create an environment that is completely to your own liking, and what you would like to see in such a game? We can.

It’s true, I am no WOW expert, but I do know one thing for damn sure. WOW is no NWN 1, and NWN 1 is no WOW. Thank goodness for that.

My only hope, in this regard, is we might see a modern day equivalent of NWN 1. What is your hope?

No, the only thing you can customize in WoW is your user interface (which you can completely change, unlike NWN).  WoW is like an extremely high quality NWN PW with a specific ruleset.  If you want a different ruleset, you need to find a different game.

In regards to your last question, I'm pretty sure I'm on record multiple times as saying I would absolutely love to get a game with the toolset of NWN that has a decent combat engine.  That would be amazing.  The best combat engine I know of currently in WoW, but if they come up with something better I'd be all ears.

So yes, a modern day equivalent of NWN 1 would be amazing.

WebShaman wrote...

No, what you are describing is what one gets for *one* subscribed channel - various different shows all based on the same *theme*.

Eh, not really.  You have...

1. History Channel (lore and archaeology style things)
2. Discovery Channel (exploration and questing)
3. Sports Channel (PvP, including BGs, Rated BGs, and Arenas)
4. Team Obstacle Courses (PvE, including Dungeons and Raids)
5. Reality shows (social playing and guild drama and such)

Etc.  They're all based in WoW, sure, but the shows would be from different channels.

WebShaman wrote...

The biggest difference between WoW MMO style and NWN IMHO (apart from the RP aspect) is that I can add content to NWN at my fancy. Thus, when including, say, the PRC, my choice of classes, Races, etc increase exponentially - something one cannot do with WoW MMO style games.

I can even set up my PW like this - as long as my Players have access to the content needed to play.

This ability to "tailor-make" NWN to one's own preference, is, IMHO, the biggest difference there is between the two styles. And it is free-to-play.

Oh, absolutely.  And it's why I still play and build in NWN.

WebShaman wrote...

So why would anyone want to do this to themselves?

Play NWN, where you have a .bic of your online Character that you can play offline with when you get fed up (or whatever) playing online. Granted, you will probably not be able to take that Character to another PW - but you could try to recreate it (assuming it is possible).

Why would anyone join a competitive team that has regularly scheduled practices and games?  If you want to be an important part of a team you need to be reliable.

If you just want to fiddle around on your own or do shorter dungeons (which even have an automated tool for making groups easier to find for casual players), you're free to do so!  Never have to join a raiding or PvP guild with attendance expectations.

But if you want the social and competitive team environment?  You have to commit.

WebShaman wrote...

One thing I do wish to discuss a bit here with MM - you say you can reach max level in, what, 100+ hours of play in WoW??!!

That is pretty quick!

I admit I find this amusing.

The original campaign was touted as, what, like 40 hours?  And SoU and HoT as 20 hours each?  Mass Effect 2 and 3 probably average about 30 hours per playthrough if you do everything and Mass Effect 1 was a bit longer.

So, just as a basis of comparison, we're saying $60 for a 30 hour game is worth it but 100+ hours a month for $15 is a terrible deal.  And this is ignoring the fact most people probably take longer to level and the "serious" game doesn't even start until maximum level.  Unlike DnD, which, as I understand, generally doesn't revolve around max level players.

WebShaman wrote...

So...that is obviously under a month ala $15. So what do you do with your...time after that? Items gathering? Or are the raids really made for those who have maxed? And I suppose the only feeling of accomplishment is "beating" the raid-made boss, right (besides whatever item(s) one receives)?

If it takes 120 hours to level (semi-randomly picking number that probably is reasonably accurate for a decent but not amazing player, so they aren't being perfectly efficient or anything), that would require 30 hours a week to reach max level in a month.  If you're new to the game, I'd expect closer to 200 hours since you're figuring everything out and probably are "wasting" a lot of time exploring and just looking at things.  So if you play one hour a day on average, you're looking at about seven months for your first character to hit max level.  If you play two hours a day (14 hours a week on average), that would be three to four months.

I just went ahead and looked at a character I leveled up this expansion.  I wasn't trying to powerlevel, but I went reasonably quickly and had an experience bonus that you can earn for alternate characters when you're maximum level.  It took me 102 hours.  So yeah, 200+ hours for a newer player would probably be accurate.

Yes, the raids are really made for those at maximum level, you can't even enter the current raids if you aren't at the current level cap.  People do a lot of things at maximum level (many of which do involve getting more powerful items in some fashion):

1. Battlegrounds
2. Rated Battlegrounds/Arena (Competitive PvP)
3. Dungeons/LFR
4. Raids (Competivie PvE)
5. Daily Quests and Reputation
6. Achievement hunting (ranging from exploration to collecting mounts/pets to participating in World Events)

I love raiding.  It's why I play.  We have our own guild site here, but there's a lot more to it than that.  For example, there's a site called WoWProgress which tracks raiding guilds world-wide, and there's a lot of prestige to being highly ranked.  Our page is here, which shows that during this last set of raid bosses we finished about 700th in the entire world while playing two nights a week.  There are over 60,000 raiding guilds in the world, and those guilds still only comprise at most like 20-30% of the playerbase.

Each time a new set of bosses comes out we compete for rankings.  On the previous set, for example, we were closer to 500th world (we fell behind another two night a week guild by two weeks, and they were ranked 300th...that two week period is the jump from 300th to 700th).  Higher rankings, especially compared to the few other stellar two night a week guilds, help us find the recruits we need to maintain our roster.

And the content itself is very difficult.  We've tried bosses over 150 times before finally beating them.  The video I linked earlier is from the top guild in the world at the time, and they had over 500 attempts before winning.  Yes, the best guild in the world still took over 500 tries before the guild won a single time.

And it's not fake difficulty, like "Oh, you didn't have X item which gives 100% fire immunity and thus you instantly die."  It's execution, coordination, maximizing DPS and minimizing damage taken, communication, and so much more.  It's what I love about WoW.

Modifié par MagicalMaster, 30 août 2012 - 06:20 .

[Shadooow]

Lazarus Magni wrote...

Ok, my bad MM, you got me. Basically WOW is a NWN knock off, with less diversity and modability, and yet pay to play, and even worse pay to win.

You have 9 classes, we have 22. You can specialize, we can multiclass.

In effect WOW, has half of the capability of NWN, and was a beautiful knock off, and yet 10x the earning potential, mostly because of it’s marketing, and P2P and pay to win (and get paid to play) dynamics.

Tell me? Can you make a mod on WOW where assassins use intelligence for AB and AC? We can. Can you make a mod where people need to get food and water to survive? We can. Can you do a 1000 other amazing things modders of NWN 1 have been able to do, and share it in a multiplayer format? We can. Can you create an environment that is completely to your own liking, and what you would like to see in such a game? We can.

It’s true, I am no WOW expert, but I do know one thing for damn sure. WOW is no NWN 1, and NWN 1 is no WOW. Thank goodness for that.

My only hope, in this regard, is we might see a modern day equivalent of NWN 1. What is your hope?

What are yo utrying to prove Lazarus? That NWN is better than WoW or that players playing WoW are stupid than those playing NWN?

This is bs. There are valid reason to play each game, it does not make the player any dumb to play that. Same debate could be started over playing roleplaying NWN servers and action-based NWN servers.

It looks to me as the usual preconceptions about peoples playing computer games at all.

[Lazarus Magni]

LOL why does everybody get so riled up over me having an opinion. Yes I think NWN 1 is better than WOW, and yes I think it is stupid to pay to play a game you paid to buy, and further more supporting/encourging that does us the consumers no good. And trying to prove? Or the point of all this? I think I have made that clear multiple times, what my intensions are.

MM, wow, I can't believe you actually agreed with me on something. However aside from that it is worth noting, 3x9= 27, but regardless, that is still nothing compared to the diversity of builds you can achieve with NWN 1. Back in the day I was part of a character build group, and there are literally 100's of builds. And that doesn't even include the expansion on that from community contributed classes as Web Shaman mentioned. Now multiply that by the fact that many PWs are highly customized, in many regards, including how classes are handled. So a build that might work well on one world might not on another. It adds a whole other dimension of challange to the player, not only to learn how to make a good build, but also how to adapt it to the world you are playing on. As I said playing a nwn 1 character, is a whole lot more challanging than playing a WOW toon.

Modifié par Lazarus Magni, 30 août 2012 - 08:47 .

[MagicalMaster]

Lazarus Magni wrote...

MM, wow, I can't believe you actually agreed with me on something.

Despite what you and Urk may think (or maybe not, I'd hate to put words in your mouth), I'm not disagreeing for the sake of disagreeing and I'm not here to troll people.  I still like playing NWN, which is why I read and post on this forum.

Lazarus Magni wrote...

However aside from that it is worth noting, 3x9= 27

There were 9 classes at launch in WoW.  There were no prestige classes in the original NWN.

At this point, there are 11 classes (counting Monks in one month) with 34 specialization (Druids have four specializations) in WoW.  And there are prestige classes in NWN.

Lazarus Magni wrote...

but regardless, that is still nothing compared to the diversity of builds you can achieve with NWN 1. Back in the day I was part of a character build group, and there are literally 100's of builds. And that doesn't even include the expansion on that from community contributed classes as Web Shaman mentioned.

There may be hundreds of possible builds, but the vast majority of them are either virtually identical or mechanically inferior.  Whether you go 12 Fighter/25 WM/3 Rogue or 10 Fighter/28 WM/2 Rogue or something similar is a matter of optimization, not valid choice.  And while it's certainly possible to play an inferior build, Blizzard doesn't think new players should be lured into a trap like that and have decided to focus on a "smaller " number (read: 34 very distinct "builds) and make them all equally valid (or at least as much as they can, which is usually within a few percent).

Lazarus Magni wrote...

Now multiply that by the fact that many PWs are highly customized, in many regards, including how classes are handled. So a build that might work well on one world might not on another. It adds a whole other dimension of challange to the player, not only to learn how to make a good build, but also how to adapt it to the world you are playing on. As I said playing a nwn 1 character, is a whole lot more challanging than playing a WOW toon.

I'd agree with all but the last statement.  And the thing is, all of those take place before making the character (or should).  So you could argue that *building* a NWN character for a specific environment and having to know all sorts of stuff to even start playing is harder, sure.  But in terms of optimizing at max level?  Actually gearing correctly, worrying about the half dozen different stats (and stuff like haste plateaus and hit caps), and executing the playstyle is *far* harder than NWN.  That part isn't even close.

I'd certainly agree it's harder to get started in NWN.  And having to know all sorts of stuff ahead of time to effectively build the character.  Whether that's good or bad is a matter of opinion.  But in terms of mechanically executing and playing correctly once the character is built?  WoW is harder.  Optimizing gear and talents (feats)?  WoW is harder.

Modifié par MagicalMaster, 30 août 2012 - 11:12 .

[Lazarus Magni]

Well on that MM we may have to agree, to disagree.

I have to say though, although I have made my intentions perfectly clear (trying to spark a discussion about how we could have a next gen game akin to NWN 1, and how to preserve what is good about NWN 1, and yet provide a developer with incentive for producing such a game.) It’s those who are in opposition to this idea who have not made their intentions clear.

Sure you may have been offended by some of my opinions, and remarks, but the ideas I presented are the heart of the message I was trying to get across. I apologize if I have offended anyone, but my opinions remain the same, as do the ideas I tried to spark a discussion about.

So if everybody is done having their feelings hurt, how bout some people actually coming forward (as a few already have), and contribute something meaningful to this brainstorming session (as some already have), rather than wallow in the pettiness? So far we have 2 or 3 pages of meaningful discussion, and 4 or 5 of, as you so rightly put it Shadooow B.S. (of which I am a guilty contributor as well.)

[Magical Master]

Lazarus Magni wrote...

I have to say though, although I have made my intentions perfectly clear (trying to spark a discussion about how we could have a next gen game akin to NWN 1, and how to preserve what is good about NWN 1, and yet provide a developer with incentive for producing such a game.) It’s those who are in opposition to this idea who have not made their intentions clear.

Who's in opposition to the idea?  I guess SuperFly_200?

"Just want to clear up some misconceptions here. It looks like many people think that ALL people think that an NWN1-like game HAS to have private servers. Here is where I don't agree and hopefully some others with me. What I am really waiting for is a NWN1 like game with one or a couple of company owned "large PW's" (or what to call them)."

Don't think anyone else wouldn't want a second NWN1 with updated mechanics and combat engine.

Lazarus Magni wrote...

Well on that MM we may have to agree, to disagree.

Why?

I mean, if you said "Red is a better color than blue" we could certainly disagree, but that's because it's entirely subjective.

How is the question of whether the countless NWN builds are mostly either insignificant differences or flat out inferior such a subjective question?  Surely you're not going to claim that 10 F/28 WM/2 Rogue versus 12 F/25 WM/3 Rogue play differently?  One of the two is going to be superior in an environment and both play identically regardless (assuming they're both strength builds or something, there's obviously other factors, but again you can figure out the optimal build).  Isn't that a question that definitely has a right or wrong answer?

Same thing with the question of which is harder to play.  Isn't there a objective answer about whether it's harder to play a NWN character or a WoW character?  I'm sure you'd agree that it's far harder to play a spellcaster under default rules than a fighter-type, for example, right?  If we can break that down and analyze it, why can't we do the same thing across two games?

Modifié par Magical Master, 31 août 2012 - 12:17 .

[Squatting Monk]

Since the discussion has started drifting into whether the D&D ruleset is superior to WoW's...

IMO, the hardcoding of the ruleset is one of the biggest shortcomings of NWN. If we were to see a new NWN-like game, I'd actually rather see it un-tethered from the D&D rules. It'd be nice to mod it to run any way you like, and it would allow it to appeal to a larger audience, too. Want an MMO-style combat system? You can do it. Want something similar to Diablo? You can do it. Prefer D&D 4e, 3.5, or even earlier? You can do it.

It would be a great way to get sub-communities going, too. Competition and collaboration to meet the desires of the larger community? That sounds like something everyone could get behind.

[Lazarus Magni]

Magical Master wrote...

Who's in opposition to the idea?  I guess SuperFly_200?

Actually, no Superfly has made some thoughtful, and on topic contributions to this discussion, regardless of whether or not he agrees with my own particular idea. I respect him for actually having something meaningful to contribute. Nice try trying to start some beef though. It's people who only want to foccus on the bickering and the negatives, and those who constantly want to derail the core of the topic that I don't see as being constructive participants in this dialog, and question their intensions.

Magical Master wrote...

Lazarus Magni wrote...

Well on that MM we may have to agree, to disagree.

Why?

Because I don't feel like perpetuating this endless argument with you, of which obviously neither of us is going to be persuaded by. If you think there are 100's of nwn 1 builds, and they are not that different from each other (which is true in some cases, but not the majority as you are trying to make it seem), than you don't know much about character building in NWN 1.

Now if you have something actually constructive to contribute to the heart of this topic, that I would be interested to hear. And thanks to everyone else who have voiced their constructive input.

Modifié par Lazarus Magni, 31 août 2012 - 05:57 .

[Lazarus Magni]

Squatting Monk wrote...

Since the discussion has started drifting into whether the D&D ruleset is superior to WoW's...

IMO, the hardcoding of the ruleset is one of the biggest shortcomings of NWN. If we were to see a new NWN-like game, I'd actually rather see it un-tethered from the D&D rules. It'd be nice to mod it to run any way you like, and it would allow it to appeal to a larger audience, too. Want an MMO-style combat system? You can do it. Want something similar to Diablo? You can do it. Prefer D&D 4e, 3.5, or even earlier? You can do it.

It would be a great way to get sub-communities going, too. Competition and collaboration to meet the desires of the larger community? That sounds like something everyone could get behind.

I like the D&D ruleset (for the most part), but your right a more open, and dynamic one would be much more flexable. A brilliant idea.

[Squatting Monk]

Lazarus Magni wrote...

If you think there are 100's of nwn 1 builds, and they are not that different from each other (which is true in some cases, but not the majority as you are trying to make it seem), than you don't know much about character building in NWN 1.

That's rather uncharitable, considering your shaky knowledge of WoW classes and mechanics.

One of the things to remember is that the D&D ruleset and that of WoW and most other MMOs have completely different aims. D&D aims for flavor and to allow the building of particular archetypes. There is a lot of overlap between builds, but that's a feature, not a bug. Multiclassing allows one to pick up characteristics of a different archetype. The more you invest in Rogue, the more rogue-ish you are. The more you invest in Fighter, the more fighter-ish you are. A Rogue 18/Fighter22 is not going to be much different from a Rogue 22/Fighter 18. Each build will be more capable of some things than the other. However, a Rogue 36/Fighter 4 is going to be much different than a Rogue 4/Fighter 36 because they are more invested in their respective archetypes.

You could imagine any given class combination as lying somewhere on a sliding scale between the archetypes. Slide in direction A, get more A-ish. Slide in direction B, get more B-ish.

An MMO-style system is typically aimed at optimizing for a particular in-game role. You decide what role you want to play (typically, Tank, DPS, or healer, though there are other possibilities) and choose your class and specs according to that role. You may choose to diversify your build, allowing you to fulfill multiple roles, or you may decide to focus on doing one thing really well. The mechanics are typically set up to allow for active, fast-paced combat. Player skill is typically tied to learning optimum specs, equipment sets, and combat rotations, as well as decreasing reaction time and (most important for high-level play) learning to work well with others.

Some MMO systems (Guild Wars was a good example) straddle the line between archetype and game role.

So the NWN system and the WoW system have different goals, and, I think, they achieve those goals very well (though that's not to say either is perfect, of course; there's always room for improvement). I think it's silly to argue which one is better, per se. However, it's perfectly reasonable to say, "System X matches the way I enjoy playing more than System Y does."

Modifié par Squatting Monk, 31 août 2012 - 04:39 .

[Lazarus Magni]

I never claimed to be a perfect person.

"I'm no heroine" - Ani Difranco

Oh and to the toon hacker who visited my PW tonight... "I am not a pretty girl" -also by Ani Difranco

Gotta love it when people hate on you for just speaking your mind, or from your heart.

System X matches the way I enjoy playing more than System Y does.

Modifié par Lazarus Magni, 31 août 2012 - 05:07 .

[Squatting Monk]

Lazarus Magni wrote...

I never claimed to be a perfect person.

No one's saying you should be perfect. We're just saying it's unkind to call us names because we have different opinions and interests than you do, and that we'd prefer you didn't do that.

Modifié par Squatting Monk, 31 août 2012 - 05:30 .

[Lazarus Magni]

Saying I think someone who pays to play a video game they already paid to buy is a sucker, is not exactly calling someone names. I am not saying you are a *****, or a *******, or a *******. I guess that's a difference in our vanacular. As Urk, more eloquently put it, perhaps I should have substituted sucker for mark. Would that be more acceptable to all of you I have mortally offended? I am not calling anyone a name by voicing this opinion. I am mearly voicing my opinion which is I think that gaming model is a scam. And those that buy into it are marks (aka suckers), and sheep (aka, following the "popular" crowd, regardless of the true merits (or lack there of) of the endevor.) And more importantly, my plea for game developers to offer us something better, and for the gaming community to demand it.

P.S. Again, this is foccusing on the negatives of this thread, rather than actually adding constructive ideas towards the heart of the topic. AKA THE FUTURE OF MMO games. Apparently the future is bleak.

Modifié par Lazarus Magni, 31 août 2012 - 05:56 .

[Lazarus Magni]

Lazarus Magni wrote...

Oh and to the toon hacker who visited my PW tonight...

The more I think about this the more this is starting to ****** me off...


Oh. btw… I think I may have mentioned something in this thread about how bioware totally screwed us over by abandoning the master server?
 
And I think I mentioned how it was great and all the community came up with a work around, which didn’t actually fix the problem, but did stop the bleeding?
 
Some people said, oh, this hardly crippled the community. I suppose that is true if you have a super genius scripter. Luckily we have one of those working with us. However here is another not so small example about how this loss totally screwed the community.
 
I have had some idiots logging on to my PW with hacked toons. I can ban them, but they can just use a CD key generator, and a proxy server to relog with in minutes. So ok, my validator (no not a bioware provided one, but rather one from the community) catches these ****s, but they can keep doing it.  And what about the 100’s of other servers that aren’t blessed with as gifted of scripters and community support as I have been?
 
In short the loss of the master server has completely opened up all PWs (except those of the most sophisticated nature, with state of the art, damn near professional level community contributed security systems), to being vulnerable.
 
Someone said something about how the loss of the master server was not a crippling effect on the NWN 1 community? That someone is either involved in one of the PWs with the capacity to actually thwart it on their own (aka with no help from bioware), or interested in perpetuating that myth for some other agenda.
 
As much as I can be a total jerk, IMO defending such an outcome, and trying to pass it off as no big deal, is the serious violation.
 
Now as mentioned, I guess I can’t really blame bioware. They have no real incentive for supporting the game. Which is kinda the purpose of this whole thread. The community can solve a lot of problems. But apparently they can’t (or are unwilling to) solve this one simple one. Not for bioware, retroactively, nor presently, nor for the future, nor for the NWN 1 on line community at large, nor for any other game modeled after the precedent NWN 1 set.

As I said, apparently the future is bleak.

Modifié par Lazarus Magni, 31 août 2012 - 08:01 .

[Squatting Monk]

 

Lazarus Magni wrote...

Saying I think someone who pays to play a video game they already paid to buy is a sucker, is not exactly calling someone names.

 
In what weird alternate universe is calling someone a sucker not calling them names?

The reason this thread got so negative is that it started out that way. Before you started asking for people's opinions on how online RPGs could be improved, you spent a coupla posts taking potshots at MMOs and the people who play them. You could've done this in a non-negative way, stating your opinion without making digs at people.

For instance, you could've said, "I don't care for the trends I see in MMOs. I think WoW and other MMOs focus too much on commercialization and not enough on building communities and getting people to create. I would prefer to see a model more like NWN, but perhaps where the developer could extend the life of the game by, say, offering paid hosting. I think that would be more fun and better for the continuing health of the online gaming community. Are there other ways online RPGs could be improved? Are they commercially viable? How can we encourage developers to adopt these strategies?" I don't think anyone would've been upset if you'd said something like that, and most of us (even the WoWers) would have enthusiastically agreed. Instead, you quickly made this into a "hate on MMOs" thread, then got mad when people objected to your statements.

Pro tip: think carefully about how people will interpret your posts or, failing that, don't get mad if people get upset.

Lazarus Magni wrote...

Someone said something about how the loss of the master server was not a crippling effect on the NWN 1 community? That someone is either involved in one of the PWs with the capacity to actually thwart it on their own (aka with no help from bioware), or interested in perpetuating that myth for some other agenda.

 
If you recall, I said the reason it wasn't crippling is that there were workarounds even when the Master Server was online. Servers are very vulnerable right now, yes, but they were very vulnerable back then, too. It's just that now everyone knows how vulnerable they are. Yes, the Master Server being down removes a first line of defense, but it also forces server admins to pay attention to security where they were complacent before. All things being equal, I'd prefer to have the Master server and have server admins implement tight security practices, but we're stuck with just the latter. People need to get used to it.

Lazarus Magni wrote...

The community can solve a lot of problems. But apparently they can’t (or are unwilling to) solve this one simple one. Not for bioware, retroactively, nor presently, nor for the future, nor for the NWN 1 on line community at large, nor for any other game modeled after the precedent NWN 1 set.

As I said, apparently the future is bleak.

What, exactly, did you expect the community to do, besides kicking around "wouldn't it be nice if..." ideas and hoping a big company think it's worth sinking millions of dollars into?

Modifié par Squatting Monk, 31 août 2012 - 08:37 .

[WebShaman]

This is rather...bothersome

MM said :

Eh, not really. You have...

1. History Channel (lore and archaeology style things)
2. Discovery Channel (exploration and questing)
3. Sports Channel (PvP, including BGs, Rated BGs, and Arenas)
4. Team Obstacle Courses (PvE, including Dungeons and Raids)
5. Reality shows (social playing and guild drama and such)

Etc. They're all based in WoW, sure, but the shows would be from different channels.

No, you are not listening or reasoning well here. You have a channel (WoW). It offers you different programs to "watch", if you will, but they are all based on one theme (WoW)!

The comparison is normally broken down like this :

TV = Computer (makes sense, right? One device = one device).

You could compare the Internet with your Cable programming (many, many different channels to choose from, etc, etc).

WoW is one form (one channel) of entertainment (much like NWN is). You have different shows, sure. But it is only one channel, among many, to choose from.

As for character developement, yadda yadda yadda. WoW doesn't come close to scratching the barrel that is NWN in complexity! When I include all the Community made content (ala PRC, for example), WoW is...what? Oh yeah, simple, really.

Just examine your Epic Character Builds. Lots of interesting things there, mostly just with the "standard" stuff. And yes, I can use custom content in this comparison, because we are comparing the complete game here.

As for...difficulty. I will not get into this type of debate, because I simply do not have the necessary info here. We would need someone like FunkySwerve here (or someone from another high level server - avlis 3, perhaps?) to do some comparisons.

I find it funny that you mention that one does not need certain things to accomplish certain tasks in WoW. I suspect this is not true because I hear the opposite from those I know who regularly play WoW. Without certain items, levels, builds, etc, it is not possible to do certain raids (so I have been told).

The fact that you say that the No. 1 Clan took 500 tries to defeat X Raid says volumes. Now, I understand DPS, the main "roles", etc because Dragon's Age went this route (and I play that). Basically, Dragon's Age "copied" WoW IMHO. I like DAs graphics, and the story - but to be honest, the combat system sucks so major ****s, it is not funny (my opinion, obviously. YMMV). I also dislike WoWs combat system for the same reasons.

I prefer D&D, yup. Nothing bothers me more than the WoW (DA) style magic systems all based on blah! Total blah for me.

As for the future of MMOs? Apparently, there isn't one. There is just WoW, and all those "wannabes". Who (or what) is going to be able to lure away those who have poured major financial investment into their toon, their Clan involvement, ratings, items, etc?

So far, despite some of the most brilliant Dev minds in the business, nobody has come up with the answer. WoW will be around, I suspect, until VR comes to MMOs.

I am really starting to think that NWN (it came out before the WoW MMO) was a once-in-a-lifetime thing - sort of like BG was. We most likely will not see anything like it again.

Now, there is a chance (it is pretty slight, but it is there) that we might see something like it. If the Dev team that is doing BGee does well (meaning, they don't go down in financial flames), it could show the way for others in the business who are really fed up with current "choices" to do something different. Keep in mind that the Dev team doing BGee involve a lot of ex-Bioware employees (the Bioware that exists now is really not the Bioware we knew).

I personally think that the old Bioware company (really made up of employees, etc) were on to something, something really big - unfortunately, a few things conspired to change the course of the company.

First, you had the Hasbro disaster - you know, 4ed. Basically killed off any chance of NWN3 (ala Bioware) IMHO. Then you had the sell-off to EA (or buy-out, whatever). I think that basically killed what was originally planned with DA. If DA had just...man, too many have already done the text walls on that topic to post such here.

But perhaps...maybe there is a glimmer of hope in that team doing BGee. Do I need BGee? No, not really. But I think that playing it will be fun. And supporting this Dev team financially may get me what I truly want (NWNee, anyone?). Yeah.

[Lazarus Magni]

Squatting Monk wrote...

 If you recall, I said the reason it wasn't crippling is that there were workarounds even when the Master Server was online. Servers are very vulnerable right now, yes, but they were very vulnerable back then, too. It's just that now everyone knows how vulnerable they are. Yes, the Master Server being down removes a first line of defense, but it also forces server admins to pay attention to security where they were complacent before. All things being equal, I'd prefer to have the Master server and have server admins implement tight security practices, but we're stuck with just the latter. People need to get used to it.

Lazarus Magni wrote...

The community can solve a lot of problems. But apparently they can’t (or are unwilling to) solve this one simple one. Not for bioware, retroactively, nor presently, nor for the future, nor for the NWN 1 on line community at large, nor for any other game modeled after the precedent NWN 1 set.

As I said, apparently the future is bleak.

What, exactly, did you expect the community to do, besides kicking around "wouldn't it be nice if..." ideas and hoping a big company think it's worth sinking millions of dollars into?

Let's take this to a more appropiate thread shall we?

http://social.biowar...index/8398695/8

[MagicalMaster]

[quote]Lazarus Magni wrote...

Actually, no Superfly has made some thoughtful, and on topic contributions to this discussion, regardless of whether or not he agrees with my own particular idea. I respect him for actually having something meaningful to contribute. Nice try trying to start some beef though. It's people who only want to foccus on the bickering and the negatives, and those who constantly want to derail the core of the topic that I don't see as being constructive participants in this dialog, and question their intensions.[/quote]

Regardless of how thoughtful and on topic Superfly's responses were, he is the only one that I can find who is opposed to the idea of being able to create custom campaigns and servers.

You said:

'I have to say though, although I have made my intentions perfectly clear (trying to spark a discussion about how we could have a next gen game akin to NWN 1, and how to preserve what is good about NWN 1, and yet provide a developer with incentive for producing such a game.) It’s those who are in opposition to this idea who have not made their intentions clear."

Superfly's comment that I mentioned is the antithesis of "preserving what is good about NWN 1" as far as I can tell, which is the ability to create custom content, right?

[quote]Lazarus Magni wrote...

Because I don't feel like perpetuating this endless argument with you, of which obviously neither of us is going to be persuaded by. If you think there are 100's of nwn 1 builds, and they are not that different from each other (which is true in some cases, but not the majority as you are trying to make it seem), than you don't know much about character building in NWN 1.[/quote]

I'm open to being persuaded.  I'm just looking for some evidence.  I presented you with that guide to playing a Marksmanship Hunter in WoW and I have *never* seen anything remotely *close* to that in NWN.  If you have, by all means please enlighten me, I'd be very interested in seeing it.


[quote]Squatting Monk wrote...

You could imagine any given class combination as lying somewhere on a sliding scale between the archetypes. Slide in direction A, get more A-ish. Slide in direction B, get more B-ish.

An MMO-style system is typically aimed at optimizing for a particular in-game role.[/quote]

Indeed.  And the harsh truth is that you can calculate what combination of fighter and rogue levels is optimal for a desired role in NWN.  In addition, WoW picks points on the spectrum and saves "THIS will be a specialization."  So the equivalent of a fighter/rogue mix that is dexterity based and dual-wielding in light-armor is very similar to the Combat specialization of a Rogue in NWN.

In addition, it is far easier to create hybrid Physical/Spellcasting characters because Blizzard can control *exactly* what tools the class has access to.  A fighter 20/wizard 20 is generally a suboptimal spellcaster and subpar fighter.  An Enhancement Shaman is a hybrid of spells and melee and is perfectly optimal.

[quote]Lazarus Magni wrote...

I am not calling anyone a name by voicing this opinion. I am mearly voicing my opinion which is I think that gaming model is a scam. And those that buy into it are marks (aka suckers), and sheep (aka, following the "popular" crowd, regardless of the true merits (or lack there of) of the endevor.)

P.S. Again, this is foccusing on the negatives of this thread, rather than actually adding constructive ideas towards the heart of the topic. AKA THE FUTURE OF MMO games. Apparently the future is bleak.[/quote]

Yes, you are calling people a name when you call them a mark or a sucker.  That's true whether you actually believe what you're saying or not.

P.S. The whole thread started off as being derogatory, so why are you surprised some of us are annoyed that you couldn't on positives and instead decided to insulted people when you don't even know jack about WoW?

[quote]Squatting Monk wrote...

The reason this thread got so negative is that it started out that way.  Before you started asking for people's opinions on how online RPGs could be improved, you spent a coupla posts taking potshots at MMOs and the people who play them. You could've done this in a non-negative way, stating your opinion without making digs at people.

For instance, you could've said, "I don't care for the trends I see in MMOs. I think WoW and other MMOs focus too much on commercialization and not enough on building communities and getting people to create. I would prefer to see a model more like NWN, but perhaps where the developer could extend the life of the game by, say, offering paid hosting. I think that would be more fun and better for the continuing health of the online gaming community. Are there other ways online RPGs could be improved? Are they commercially viable? How can we encourage developers to adopt these strategies?" I don't think anyone would've been upset if you'd said something like that, and most of us (even the WoWers) would have enthusiastically agreed. Instead, you quickly made this into a "hate on MMOs" thread, then got mad when people objected to your statements.[/quote]

This.  Exactly this.

[quote]WebShaman wrote...

No, you are not listening or reasoning well here. You have a channel (WoW). It offers you different programs to "watch", if you will, but they are all based on one theme (WoW)!

The comparison is normally broken down like this :

TV = Computer (makes sense, right? One device = one device).

You could compare the Internet with your Cable programming (many, many different channels to choose from, etc, etc).

WoW is one form (one channel) of entertainment (much like NWN is). You have different shows, sure. But it is only one channel, among many, to choose from.[/quote]

Let's talk themes outside of video games, then.

Is War a theme?  If that's too broad, how about World War II?

Is Politics a theme?  If that's too broad, how about White House Elections?

Is Medicine a theme?  If that's too broad, how about the Emergency Room?

Do you consider any of those a theme?  If not, what sort of thing would you consider to be a theme?  Note: I don't care what you *think* about any of those topics (or rather, I do, but I'm not trying to turn this into a debate on them), I just care if you consider them a theme.

[quote]WebShaman wrote...

As for character developement, yadda yadda yadda. WoW doesn't come close to scratching the barrel that is NWN in complexity! When I include all the Community made content (ala PRC, for example), WoW is...what? Oh yeah, simple, really.

Just examine your Epic Character Builds. Lots of interesting things there, mostly just with the "standard" stuff. And yes, I can use custom content in this comparison, because we are comparing the complete game here.[/quote]

In terms of character creation, WoW is certainly simple, because all you can choose at the start is your race, class, gender, and appearance.  All of the important choices come much later and you can always undo a mistake relatively easily.  I personally think that's better than having to have your entire build planned out from the get-go and you're screwed otherwise, but I can understand the latter is enjoyable to people.  However, it seems more of a trap for new players than anything else (or a test to see if people can Google "What are the optimal starting stats/feats/etc for <class>?"

This is a worthwhile article: Complexity versus Depth.  Especially...

"Complexity can also be increased by adding choices.  However, be careful when doing this, and do it slowly, as adding a choice can often invalidate others, leaving your game with less depth, but more complexity, than it previously had.

In some cases, you can increase complexity by removing choices.  If a particular strategy dominates two others, then removing that one strategy can increase depth while simultaneously reducing complexity!  In most cases, that’s a win-win."

In other words, if...

class A > class B
class B = class C

in terms of performance, you might as well not have class B and class C.  Everyone will pick A, because it's simply better.  Unless you want something sub-optimal for role-playing reasons or something, I guess.

Likewise, if you remove class A, you suddenly have TWO viable choices instead of just ONE.

WoW has 34 valid choices (or will, within a month when the 11th class is added).  These things are within a percentage of two of each other, because otherwise people who care will always go with a certain choice.  I would be very surprised if NWN, including as much custom content as you wanted, had 34 valid combinations.

My guess is that it would boil down to about at most a dozen builds which are clearly superior and everything else is inferior.  Now, in NWN it is often viewed as acceptable to play something inferior, and if that's something you're content with and you would rather have more  diversity at the cost of balance and valid end-game choices (and personally I think 34 choices is a hell of a lot), then yes, NWN's system is more complex and you'd enjoy it more.

[quote]WebShaman wrote...

As for...difficulty. I will not get into this type of debate, because I simply do not have the necessary info here. We would need someone like FunkySwerve here (or someone from another high level server - avlis 3, perhaps?) to do some comparisons.

I find it funny that you mention that one does not need certain things to accomplish certain tasks in WoW. I suspect this is not true because I hear the opposite from those I know who regularly play WoW. Without certain items, levels, builds, etc, it is not possible to do certain raids (so I have been told). [/quote]

You absolutely need to be at max level, sure, for the actual raids.  And you shouldn't expect to hit max level and immediately be ready to go toe to toe with the hardest boss in the game.  But if you reasonably progress through content, get quest rewards, and do each dungeon a few times, you'll have the gear you need to continue forward.  For example, when you first hit level 85 you should be able to do about 9k DPS.  After getting some quest rewards and doing some dungeons, you'll be able to do like 11-12k.  After doing the harder dungeons and getting your gear prepared (such as permanent enchants and gems), you'd be able to do 13-14k or so.  So the difference between being a fresh 85 and one who is ready for raids is roughly 50% more DPS.

And no specific item is needed.  Just some better items in general.  You could raid without wearing a chestpiece if the rest of your gear was decent and gear is fairly interchangeable.  Furthermore, if the rest of your players were good and had gear from the raid, the new 85 would be able to walk in and contribute if he knew what he was doing.  He'd be doing 2/3 of the damage of other people (assuming equal skill), but he'd be a valuable contribution.  He'd never be unable to hurt the boss because he didn't have certain gear or die instantly because he didn't have a certain item.

The reverse is true on Higher Ground, since you mentioned it.  On Higher Ground, gear is far more important than anything else.  Doing 2/3 of the proper damage doesn't matter, but not having a ring to give you 75% or more cold immunity (or a different damage type as needed) is essential.  Otherwise, you literally just keep dying and cannot contribute, there's no skill involved if you don't have the gear.  I found the whole thing very amusing because I've heard people complain that WoW is so gear-focused, while Higher Ground is far, far worse in that regard.  In some of the runs I went on, I might as well not have been there or I simply had to stand back and do nothing but spam healing potions or I'd die.  Other times I would literally be unable to do anything to the boss (or even minions) and again, I might as well have just gone AFK.  If we aren't geared enough for a gear check boss in WoW, we die at like 5-10% of the boss's health or something.  Not at 75% or more.

And I get that some people like being completely gear checked, having to have a bunch of different sets of gear, and playing ability mattering very little in comparison.  Plenty of people enjoy Higher Ground.  I didn't, and it helped reinforce that the importance of gear in WoW is usually grossly overestimated.

Side note: why do you think we'd need a high level server to compare it to?  You can easily compare WoW to a level 10, 20, 30, 40, whatever server.  There's nothing inherently special about WoW's level 85, in fact WoW level 60 is equivalent to DnD level 10 at most, I'd guess.  Level 60s aren't kings or mighty archmages, they're regular or perhaps elite adventurers.

[quote]WebShaman wrote...

The fact that you say that the No. 1 Clan took 500 tries to defeat X Raid says volumes.[/quote]

If you mean it says how difficult WoW at the upper echelons of the game, yes.  If you think it means something about gear, then no.

It didn't take them over 500 tries to beat a raid.  It took them over 500 tries to beat *ONE BOSS.*  In fact, the fight had a berserk (aka the boss says "GAME OVER" and kills you) at the 15:00 mark, but the top world guild was running into it.  This was occurring because they were progressing through the bosses so rapidly that they had basically gotten no gear from them.  Remember that raids are meant to be progressed through over the course of months and in that time you'll kill the easier bosses many times.  In this case, they had killed the previous bosses only a handful of times,so if Blizzard expected them to do a minimum of 30k DPS, they could only do 28-29k.

So what did Blizzard do?  They EXTENDED the timer to 18:00.  They didn't say "Oh, well, you clearly need more gear."  They said "Look, this is about skill, and you guys are so amazing that you're defying our projections.  We'll give you a ton of extra time on the boss fight, and if you somehow manage to pull it off and win despite being undergeared, major props to you."

When most guilds killed the boss, they got there able to do 33-35k DPS and had a much easier time.  They never would have ran into the berserk, because it was never intended that ANYONE run into the berserk unless something went terribly wrong.

Heroic Ragnaros (the boss) was difficult because it was difficult.  It required a ton of coordination and movement, careful planning and strategy, timing, and tremendous execution in an incredibly chaotic environment.  Not because people didn't have a certain item and thus the boss was impossible.

[quote]WebShaman wrote...

I prefer D&D, yup. Nothing bothers me more than the WoW (DA) style magic systems all based on blah! Total blah for me.[/quote]

Why is that, if I might ask?

[quote]WebShaman wrote...

First, you had the Hasbro disaster - you know, 4ed.[/quote]

Again, why is that, if I might ask?  I've never played "actual" DnD so I don't know the differences between editions (I do know NWN was based on 3rd edition).  A few sentence summary would be wonderful (though if you feel like ranting about it, by all means go ahead).

Modifié par MagicalMaster, 31 août 2012 - 10:08 .

[Lazarus Magni]

Master Manipulator,
Despite your best efforts to bait me into actually calling you a name (I can think of quite a few that would apply), I have read the ToS so I am not going to do that. Nice try though.

Me saying I think (an opinion) WoWers are suckers, is me saying I think they have been suckered, scammed, bamboozeled, duped, tricked, fooled, cheated, hoodwinked, ect… That’s my opinion, and there is nothing wrong with me stating it. Yes I could have been nicer about it, but I wasn’t… get over it. I have already apologized for offending anyone, I am not going to grovel and beg forgivness.

As far as character building… Ok so you stated there are 33 different builds in WoW? So you and a million other people have probably built the exact same toon. Yeah… that’s diverse. There literally are hundreds of builds on NWN 1, they are distinct, and that it multiplied exponentially by the diversity of game worlds, and how they handle them each. There is really no comparison here. I can’t believe I am even indulging you by repeating myself on this. You really get off on arguing don’t you? No thanks… I have had enough of that crap.
Laz

Modifié par Lazarus Magni, 31 août 2012 - 10:32 .

[Pstemarie]

I'm so confused...

You guys have been going back and forth so much its really unclear to see what the whole point of this conversation has become. Therefore, I went back to the OP...

Lazarus Magni wrote...

I gotta admit WOW and similar games have always tickled me. Not only are those people limited in terms of their gaming potential (unlike nwn1 which is nearly open source hence it allows for basically anything in terms of game play), but they are also limited by the fact that is it pay to play... Sorry, but if I already bought the game, I shouldn't have to pay to play it. And IMHO anyone who does is a sucker. That is the biggest scam in gaming ever.... Perhaps that is the reason "MMO are dying"

If a game dev actually learned a lesson from the last decade, it would be that players like open source games like this, and further more, if they want it to be profitable in the long run they would provide a top notch hosting service for PWs run off it's open source engine. PW owners pay for hosting anyways, if game developers want to continue to profit from supporting a game, rather than the pay to play (aka wow) scam, how bout giving us a MMORPG, that is as open source as nwn 1 (if not more so), or oblivion, or Fo3, and yet fully supported on the hosting end by the game devs?

It's not complicated really, in fact rather a gem... Give the players what they want, and provide a hosting service which PWs pay for already (externally) anyways, but through you we can recieve the best support, and you can continue to profit [aka have a reason for doing so] from the game for years {or as in the case of NWN 1 over a decade} with out the pay to play crap...

Did I just say that?

 

I hear where you're coming from, but I can't say I entirely agree anymore. Since this topic began - and MM got me thinking about things - I decided to try out a few of these MMORPG games. I wasn't too fond of WoW - too much repetition and a lot of repeat traveling across areas just to complete simple quests (something I really HATE about most of the NWN modules I've played).

Then I gave Everquest II a spin and was quite surprised that I actually enjoyed it as much as NWN. The graphics are pretty decent and the interface is fairly easy to use and is like NWN in a lot of ways. However, it is a pay-to-play game but I wouldn't call it a "pay-to-win" game. Oddly enough I found myself not too distraught over its pay-to-play format. Unlike WoW, EQ2 doesn't have a monthly subscription. You pay a nominal fee or extra content - e.g. DLC (class packs, gear, race packs) that is unlocked when you buy it. There were also a couple of expansions listed in there as well. 

Overall the format used by EQ2 is more digestable to me than a monthly fee to play a game. I can't really say why I find it more agreeable, but I do. Maybe its because the money I put out is up to me and when I do put out money I get something tangible (at least IMO) to me.

Modifié par Pstemarie, 31 août 2012 - 11:06 .

[Squatting Monk]

MagicalMaster wrote...

WoW has 34 valid choices (or will, within a month when the 11th class is added).  These things are within a percentage of two of each other, because otherwise people who care will always go with a certain choice.  I would be very surprised if NWN, including as much custom content as you wanted, had 34 valid combinations.

With the PRC, yeah, it easily has more than WoW. I count 44 Base classes. With PrCs, it's even more.

EDIT: The PRC ups the number of prestige classes to 168. 

Again, why is that, if I might ask?  I've never played "actual" DnD so I don't know the differences between editions (I do know NWN was based on 3rd edition).  A few sentence summary would be wonderful (though if you feel like ranting about it, by all means go ahead).

I know you're asking him and not me, but I thought I'd take a little stab at it.

Many people feel that 4e is "dumbed down." They've simplified many of the mechanics. For example, in 3e, some attacks might have a roll to hit vs. AC and then require the target to make a save versus some other effect. In 4e, saves are treated as another form of AC: the attacker rolls to hit versus the save. It means one less roll, which speeds up gameplay.

Another major difference is that 3e focused on abilities with a limited number of uses per day. 4e has three basic types of abilities: at-will (use them as often as you want), encounter (once-per encounter), and dailies. This actually made playing fighters and other non-spellcasters more fun, since it made combat a more active process.

Spellcasters, however, suffered a great reduction in variety. In 3e, they had a large spellbook which made them adaptable to any situation. In 4e, all spellcasters play like 3e sorcerers, but with even fewer options. Also, it was difficult for the designers to give each ability clear advantages and disadvantages. Some attacks are must-haves and some are turds. Everyone wants the good ones and no one wants the bad ones. This means if you want a new and original build, it's likely to be made of suck. 

I think 4e would translate amazingly well into online gameplay, but I'd rather not lose the depth of options that 3e allowed casters.

Modifié par Squatting Monk, 01 septembre 2012 - 12:09 .