215 réponses à ce sujet

[Squatting Monk]

Thanks for getting the thread back on track, Laz.

Here's a question for consideration: what made NWN1 as successful as it was? Is it just that it enabled you to create your own modules or custom content? Is it that the developer kept up with it over the years? Is it that it appealed to a niche market? Whatever it was, can we expect a game that does the same to be as successful as (or even more so than) NWN? Was NWN's success inevitable, or more the product of chance, where the right company produced the right game at the right time that got picked up by the right people who ended up building a community that did the right things to keep the game alive?

And for perspective, what other successful games can we learn from? (And before people get their britches in knots, remember that not every successful game is good and not every good game is successful.) What did they do right? And what about those good games that weren't successful? What did they do wrong? How much of games' success or failure is the product of the strengths of the game itself, how much is the product of the publisher, developer, and players? How much is the product of random chance?

I think these questions are worth considering, because just because NWN was successful doesn't necessarily mean that a New And Improved ™ NWN would be. Having a financial incentive for a developer to make the game would be great. But if it's a bomb, it's not really going to do us much good. So would NWN with an updated engine and graphics necessarily be successful (either in the long or short term)?

And FWIW, I have no answers or opinions on these questions. Just putting them out there in hopes they're helpful and productive.

[MagicalMaster]

Squatting Monk wrote...

Thanks for getting the thread back on track, Laz.

Web and I are done, we promise.

Squatting Monk wrote...

Is it just that it enabled you to create your own modules or custom content?  Is it that the developer kept up with it over the years? Is it that it appealed to a niche market?

Yes, no, no.  As mentioned, the engine itself is lacking in cases and trying to do a DnD 3rd conversion caused a bunch of problems (like Discipline).  But the ability to make custom campaigns and PWs is what made it different from other RPGs.

The developer didn't keep up with it all that much as far as I can tell (beyond the expansions you pay for) and I don't think RPGs are really a nice market.

Squatting Monk wrote...

Whatever it was, can we expect a game that does the same to be as successful as (or even more so than) NWN? Was NWN's success inevitable, or more the product of chance, where the right company produced the right game at the right time that got picked up by the right people who ended up building a community that did the right things to keep the game alive?

It succeeded for the same reason WoW succeeded, I think.  It was the only game in its category with a decent quality at the time.  Maybe I just don't play enough games, but I don't know of any other RPG with a NWN style toolset that is even close to being as good as NWN.

But its success wasn't inevitable or chance.  Just a product of the environment.

Squatting Monk wrote...

And for perspective, what other successful games can we learn from? (And before people get their britches in knots, remember that not every successful game is good and not every good game is successful.) What did they do right? And what about those good games that weren't successful? What did they do wrong? How much of games' success or failure is the product of the strengths of the game itself, how much is the product of the publisher, developer, and players? How much is the product of random chance?

Get a better combat engine.  The inability for melee to attack while moving is bad, for example.

A lot of a game's success is marketing, which wasn't done enough for NWN, I think.  Like I said above, NWN didn't succeed because "OMG THIS GAME IS AMAZING" it succeeded because no other game offered a good RPG with a good toolset (that I know of).  Plus, it came after Baldur's Gate which quite helped, I imagine.

Squatting Monk wrote...

I think these questions are worth considering, because just because NWN was successful doesn't necessarily mean that a New And Improved ™ NWN would be. Having a financial incentive for a developer to make the game would be great. But if it's a bomb, it's not really going to do us much good. So would NWN with an updated engine and graphics necessarily be successful (either in the long or short term)?

Yes, I think so.  Look at Starcraft II, which is basically updated engine and graphics for Starcraft.  People like being able to make custom content if the toolset is easy enough to work with.

[leo_x]

Lazarus Magni wrote...

Well… this thread has evolved into having many topics, but I think we have fleshed out the differences between WOW and NWN1 ad nauseam.

I still however don’t think some of the main points of this thread have been adequately discussed, specifically:

1) What is the future of on line multiplayer games?
2) And what I am more interested in is, can we think of ideas that would give a game developer incentive to produce a modern day equivalent to NWN 1?

I wasn't paying attention at the time, but I wonder if the original game + expansion + premium module model to fund development could have continued if not for Bioware's desire to create an in-house IP, Atari's financial difficulties, and their wanting to push NWN2.

In any case, it seems like a lot of things could work given some studios can fund sustained development just by selling virtual goods like hats and mounts (eg, Guildwars 2, Team Fortress2, and Mass Effect 3 even).  I could see a publisher/developer in the model of Paradox able to sustain development if a solid community formed around it.  It would probably take someone that had little interest in pushing AAA games.

Squatting Monk wrote...
Here's a question for consideration: what made NWN1 as successful as it was? Is it just that it enabled you to create your own modules or custom content? Is it that the developer kept up with it over the years? Is it that it appealed to a niche market? Whatever it was, can we expect a game that does the same to be as successful as (or even more so than) NWN? Was NWN's success inevitable, or more the product of chance, where the right company produced the right game at the right time that got picked up by the right people who ended up building a community that did the right things to keep the game alive? 

These are all great questions.  I wonder if there wasn't some serendipty in the timing.  That when it was released and even for a number of years after it presented a kind of optimum for technology and accessibilty.  Maybe that's still true today, the only reason I'd say not (I run a PW, etc) is because the technology is now so out of date.  Aurora is like lincoln logs compared to other toolsets, but people are undoubtedly able to create great, unique, things with it.  Even those without much technical/artistic background.  Then being a Bioware game actually having enough players to care about and explore those creations helped a great deal too I'd say.

Modifié par pope_leo, 16 septembre 2012 - 11:58 .

[WebShaman]

pope_leo said:

but I wonder if the original game + expansion + premium module model to fund development could have continued if not for Bioware's desire to create an in-house IP, Atari's financial difficulties, and their wanting to push NWN2.

^ This.

It was working. Peeps were purchasing the premium Mods and it was bringing in revenue. I firmly believe that it panicked Atari (who was looking to end NWN development in order to "move" the Community over to NWN2 at the time) and they moved to kill it off.

And then effectively killed off the same proceedure for NWN2 with the MoW DRM fiasco.

It seems that this sort of "model" was killed off. I do not know why, really. It looked like it was proving to be a good one, at least one that was sustainable. The Premium Mod project brought a lot of great content to NWN (implemented in a later patch).

We see this sort of behavior now as "dlc for pay" in many games, especially DA, DA2, ME, etc. But I would not label it exactly the same here, as the Premium Mods were created by OUTSIDE groups (who got paid for their work...). And the Mods are stand-alones, meaning they are not part of the official OCs (unlike most DLC these days).

I firmly believe that the Premium Mod project would have kept development for NWN alive, at least for patching and improving on the game, as well as empowering various groups financially for an indefinite time.

[PlasmaJohn]

WebShaman wrote...

It was working. Peeps were purchasing the premium Mods and it was bringing in revenue. I firmly believe that it panicked Atari (who was looking to end NWN development in order to "move" the Community over to NWN2 at the time) and they moved to kill it off.

No such thing.  Infogrames (aka Atari) and Hasbro had a big fight and the former legally had to stop distributing D&D licensed products.  They eventually did settle, but the damage was done and NWN and NWN2 were end-of-life'd

I firmly believe that the Premium Mod project would have kept development for NWN alive, at least for patching and improving on the game, as well as empowering various groups financially for an indefinite time.

I remember hearing that the Premium Mod program was making enough money for Bioware to fund one or more developers.  Alas the Infogrames/Atari dust-up and the acquisition of Bioware by EA made reinstatement pretty much impossible.

Modifié par PlasmaJohn, 18 septembre 2012 - 04:17 .

[WebShaman]

PJ said :

Infogrames (aka Atari) and Hasbro had a big fight and the former legally had to stop distributing D&D licensed products. They eventually did settle, but the damage was done and NWN and NWN2 were end-of-life'd

I don't think you are considering the time-line here. You will, of course, have knowledge that MoW was released as a Premium Mod for NWN2, by the same group that tried (and failed) to have a Premium Mod released for NWN (though DoD was released as a Mod by that group).

Bioware fought viciously to get DLA's WCoC released as a Premium Mod (and it squeaked by, apparently).  My guess is that ridable horses, cloaks, etc really put Atari under pressure (and Obsidian, though rideable horses was supposed to be "in" for NWN2, before officially landing on the cutting room floor).

Fact is, that the quality of the Premium Mods was getting better and better (PotSC, WCoC, DoD).  I think this alarmed Atari, as they really did expect the NWN Community to "move over" to NWN2 and embrace it.

Apparently, Atari killed off the Premium Mod program for NWN and it was continued for NWN2 (see MoW). So that obviously had nothing to do with the Atari/Hasbro fight.

We also have to take into consideration that Atari was at that time financially practically bankrupt and was desperately looking for lots of cash, quickly.  The Premium Mods for NWN were good for NWN and could enable Bioware (at the time) to continue to patch NWN - but the revenue for Atari was not nearly anywhere near what they needed, especially as they were rushing NWN2 out the door.

The enormous amount of time lost for NWN2 Premium Mods was due to the DRM fiasco, that took over a year to get straightened out. By then, the Atari/Hasbro fight was full in bloom, ending any and all hope for more Premium Mods (and patches, btw).

Modifié par WebShaman, 20 septembre 2012 - 12:07 .

[comeandsee]

I got this game back when it first came out back in 02-03 and it's one of those few games that have left a lasting impression on me over the years. Hell, I still have the original CDs!!

The fact that you could create your own content and host your own servers was the biggest plus factor regarding this game. MMOs have really failed to catch on to this because they believe being a developer gives them God-mentality. NWN you can create your own game and change the flow whenever and however you want. I hosted a server with my friend in 04-05 and we had almost 30 people on all the time and it was a challenge to keep them all entertained, but the players entertained themselves by roleplaying amongst each other.

MMOs are getting stagnant because they're basically just copying off each other to the point it's just like "Korean WoW, "Space WoW", etc.

NWN2 failed to take off because the game engine ran like complete ASS. I bought it when it came out and I had a reasonably powerful computer for the time period and this thing brought my PC to a crawl. I tried it a few years on my 1st gen i7 computer and it still ran like garbage.

I mean, I was really surprised when my friend told me people were still playing this games multiplayer. I can just imagine how far this game has gone since my teenage haydays.

Also, the #1 thing I still dislike about NWN1 is the fact you need 5-8 different expansions just to log on the server. I don't even know if I have the serial keys anymore. Also, the combat system and classes has always been confusing. Basically Dragon Age came in and dumbed it down.

Modifié par comeandsee, 20 septembre 2012 - 12:53 .

[Aelis Eine]

Looks like I'm late to the party

I'd say to make a modern NWN-style game, developers will have to look outside the game industry for ideas, and see what's happening on the web. Prosumers and community-created content are on the rise.

Look at places like Second Life, Youtube, the smartphone app stores and Windows/Xbox Live Marketplace. They adopt a very ground-up approach - the owners do very little development other than back end work.

The bulk of the content is made by the community, and the community is incentivized to make content because they can make money from it - as a Youtube Partner, a Second Life store owner, an Android app developer or what have you. That's on top of the possible recognition and celebrity status they can get.

Suppose this concept were to be applied to an RPG maker. At its heart would be an isometric engine like NWN to be bandwidth-friendly by avoiding the walkmesh nightmare that was NWN2. Combat and classes will be an empty slate - have some basic support for targeting, melee attacks, ranged attacks, point blank AoEs, targeted AoEs, moving attacks, cooldowns etc, but largely remain ruleset-neutral. Let modders handle the intricacies of emulating actual systems like say, D&D. As far as licenses like OGL will allow anyway.

And then have some stock monsters, character appearances, tilesets etc. But the bulk of the content will come from the content toolset and content store, where modders can make and sell content like tilesets, armors, monsters, scripts etc. These will be bought by builders to use in their mods.

After that, have a builder toolset for builders to put these things together, add quests, dialogs etc in to make a PW. Basic hosting is provided by the publisher for free, but only up to X number of players, like say, 6. Any higher, the builder has to pay, but the builder is also given the tools to manage an in-game cash shop in their mod so that players can help them raise the funds. All transactions are done via the developer's own currency.

So the publisher stands to make money at 4 points: They get a lump sum when people buy the game's currency. They can take a cut from transactions in the content store. They can also take a cut from transactions in the builder's cash shop. Finally, when builders or custom content creators cash out their earnings as real money, they can take a cut as well.

The main problem I forsee with such a model is IP rights management. People are very likely going to copy content from other games or other modders, and because money is involved, they publisher is going to have a rough time preventing copyright infringement to avoid lawsuits.

I'm pretty sure something like this is going to come sooner or later, because this is the direction the web is moving towards in general. I don't think Bioware/EA will be the ones doing this though - their loss, but they're not known for taking risks. In all likelihood I'd expect a Korean studio to do this, then have it translated into English.

Modifié par Aelis Eine, 21 septembre 2012 - 02:06 .

[Lazarus Magni]

I agree, I think premium modules could definitely be a contributing factor for sustainability.

Selling virtual goodies walks a fine line between free to play (F2P), and pay to win (P2W), but if it was handled properly it would not have to compromise the F2P ideal.

Aelis, you have an interesting concept, and I think you’re on to something, that being sustainability would be the product of multiple facets.

[PlasmaJohn]

There have been several examples of virtual world toolkits with developer supplied hosting.  The problem with them has been that every last one have adopted the games publisher/record company attitude of demanding an exorbitant amount of any gross revenues.  Multiverse (http://www.multiverse.net) found out the hard way that this attitude doesn't work in the long run.  In some cases they expect the worlds to be charging players $15/month or more (2nd Life private islands, ActiveWorlds)

Another pitfall to be wary of is system reputation.  Second Life is viewed by many as a red-light district.

When a single entity has all of the profit motive, then they act to maximize thier own benefit.  So you get stuff like percentage of revenue fees or periodic fees way out of touch with reality.  Or worse, you get usage restrictions (thouh shalt only run on our hosting, thou shalt be family friendly, etc.). 

Don't get me wrong, I'm not against anybody making a profit.  Quite the opposite in fact.  I just want to see the profit motive work for me.  I want to see a system that allows for multiple independent content and hosting providers.  This lets everybody focus on their core competency and are motivated to do their best work instead of working to lock people in.

The game client and server are more infrastructure products.  These are ripe for an Open Source effort akin to the Apache web server.  Maybe the independent suppliers can collaborate on or subsidize its development.

Modifié par PlasmaJohn, 21 septembre 2012 - 02:21 .

[SuperFly_2000]

How about a premium module for Persistent World gaming....

[Aelis Eine]

PlasmaJohn wrote...

There have been several examples of virtual world toolkits with developer supplied hosting.  The problem with them has been that every last one have adopted the games publisher/record company attitude of demanding an exorbitant amount of any gross revenues.  Multiverse (http://www.multiverse.net) found out the hard way that this attitude doesn't work in the long run.  In some cases they expect the worlds to be charging players $15/month or more (2nd Life private islands, ActiveWorlds)

Another pitfall to be wary of is system reputation.  Second Life is viewed by many as a red-light district.

When a single entity has all of the profit motive, then they act to maximize thier own benefit.  So you get stuff like percentage of revenue fees or periodic fees way out of touch with reality.  Or worse, you get usage restrictions (thouh shalt only run on our hosting, thou shalt be family friendly, etc.). 

Don't get me wrong, I'm not against anybody making a profit.  Quite the opposite in fact.  I just want to see the profit motive work for me.  I want to see a system that allows for multiple independent content and hosting providers.  This lets everybody focus on their core competency and are motivated to do their best work instead of working to lock people in.

The game client and server are more infrastructure products.  These are ripe for an Open Source effort akin to the Apache web server.  Maybe the independent suppliers can collaborate on or subsidize its development.

Looking at Multiverse, I think the root of the problem is not the pricing, but the barrier to entry. Multiverse is not positioned towards the masses. Quoting from their website, it requires "a basic knowledge of Python, Java and XML", and while I won't say their website is riddled with jargon, there's enough technical terms in there to give the impression that it's oriented towards technical people rather than the masses.

The trouble with that approach is economies of scale - if you fish in a smaller pond, you catch less fish, so you hope you can catch bigger fish. From what I'm reading though, they only asked for a 10% cut. In comparison, Steam takes a 30% cut, and I think iTunes also takes 30%, so it might be that the small margins coupled with small client base that did Multiverse in.

The thing about NWN and a hypothetical NWN successor though, NWN PWs are similar to MMOs, but they are not MMOs. The average PW would have maybe 30 concurrent players, while the top PWs have maybe 80. The average MMO would see concurrent players number in the thousands.

So as far as needs of a Module/PW maker vs an indie MMO maker go, there are some major differences between the two. PW solutions are smaller scale and don't need to give the builder quite as much power, but need to be more user-friendly and more polished and visually appealing out of the box.

That's why I think a walled garden approach has advantages over open source for PW devs. It allows the publisher to control some of the more technical aspects of PWs. If hosting was done on the publisher's side, server setup can be integrated into the UI as a few simple buttons. The builder would not have to worry about port forwarding, finding their IP address, wondering why their server doesn't show up on the server list etc.

It goes both ways though - if the publisher wants to host on their side and expect users to pay, this is the minimum level of service I would expect, otherwise I agree open source/open hosting would be better.

[Bannor Bloodfist]

In my humble opinion, no NWN MMO style game will ever be created.

"Why?" you ask? The answer is WoW. Indies like Bioware was originally, will not/can not get financial backing unless they can PROVE that they will make as much money as was/is being made by WoW.

You can NOT give the community the power to create their own things without being liable for all of the IP copyright issues that absolutely WILL occur. Here in NWN land, there is a huge amount of copyrighted materials, creatures. weapons etc that have been directly stolen from other games. In a MMO style environment, the lawsuits would be flying left and right.... here in a "dead" game that is no longer supported, the only folks that could get sued would be the folks that directly copied the materials, and lawyers won't bother since they know it would cost more in legal/court fees than could ever be confiscated from Billy Joe Bob, 17 year old that broke the law. They can't sue Bioware since Bioware no longer provides support, same with suing Atari, can't do that since they are also disconnected from the game.

So, since idies can't get financial backing without having that proof that there will be hundreds of millions in profits, well, the games can't get created. It all boils down to completely unfounded greed. Bio had a chance to continue with NWN dev work, but Atari and WotC said no. End of story. No one can step up to the plate and offer competition since WotC want's way too much money to make the possible sales work and still have enough to pay the employees of any potential company, much less the so-called financial backers.

The stock market demands that your IPO will make millions in profits, way above and beyond a safe margin. It used to be that the word "profit" meant that all your bills were paid, all your employees were paid, and you had "extra" money left over. Might only be 1-5% but it was a "profit" and was accepted as such. Now, well, now that word "profit" means a return on investment of well over 500%. invest $10, incur an additional $10 in expenses, so a total of $20 of real world expense, and the banks want your return to be $100, not $25.

The world can not work that way. We have proved that beyond a shadow of a doubt here in USA and all across Europe. The world can NOT live on credit when the interest rates are 28%. You can never pay that debt down.

Ahh well, back to working on stuff for a "dead" game, that might get used by a few hundred folks, and do it out of love of the game and the opportunity to be able to create. I don't need 100 million folks to pat me on the back, or to pay $1 each for the privs of using what I may or may not create. It would be nice of course, but in the real world, it is just not going to happen. There are no more premium module teams for NWN that I can help as I did with Wyvern Crown, since all development was stopped by infrogrames(atari) and WotC. Thank you WotC for your thick-headedness and infrogrames for your financial stupidity.

Modifié par Bannor Bloodfist, 22 septembre 2012 - 09:48 .

[kamal_]

Well, there was the open source reimplementation of NWN1, and the project person had already done work like getting maps to load and some other functionality.

[PlasmaJohn]

Bannor Bloodfist wrote...

...

You can NOT give the community the power to create their own things without being liable for all of the IP copyright issues that absolutely WILL occur. Here in NWN land, there is a huge amount of copyrighted materials, creatures. weapons etc that have been directly stolen from other games. In a MMO style environment, the lawsuits would be flying left and right.... here in a "dead" game that is no longer supported, the only folks that could get sued would be the folks that directly copied the materials, and lawyers won't bother since they know it would cost more in legal/court fees than could ever be confiscated from Billy Joe Bob, 17 year old that broke the law. They can't sue Bioware since Bioware no longer provides support, same with suing Atari, can't do that since they are also disconnected from the game.

...

I think you're conflating a couple things here.  (ObIANAL)

Even if NWN were still supported and wildly profitable today, just becase Billy Joe Bob created a Sonic the Hedgehog server doesn't mean Sega (IIRC) could reasonably expect to win a lawsuit against Bioware for the same reasons that it would be futile to sue the Apache Foundation over a Sonic fansite because they use the Apache webserver.  Like the webserver software, the NWN server is just a tool and the entity liable for infringement is Billy Joe Bob and not Bioware.

Now Sega could go to BJB's ISP and slap them with a DMCA notice if BJB lived and/or hosted in the USA.  I think outside of the US it takes an actual lawsuit and injunction to accomplish the same, but worry not, WIPO is busily crafting DMCA-like legislation for everyone!  Regardless, still not Bioware.

The only situation where Bioware would be directly liable is if they were using somebody else's work without permission (that's infringement, btw, not theft).  In fact this happened: http://www.gamefront.com/fans-upset-over-stock-photo-in-mass-effect-3-pic/

Not sure how many MMO's allow player provided content.  I know that Second Life does and I'm sure they have policies that deal with infringment.  I expect it to be at least a violation of their Terms of Service making one subject to account termination and deletion.  Not really a product killing drama.

Sure, there's a bit of a chicken-and-egg problem here.  Frankly I'm rather amazed that NWN pretty much stands alone.  Partly because of that, the people with money see the concept as either very risky or one that leaves money on the table (lack of lock-in, lack of mandatory fees, lack of selling user data, etc.).

I don't buy into the common wisdom that it requires millions of dollars to develop a game.  I think what fuels this perception is the need for the latest eye-candy and AAA/AAAA level art.  Sure, they make a game pretty but they do nothing to make them fun.  "Pretty" is an investor feature because it drives short-term sales.  "Fun" is a gamer feature that can drive long-term sales if nurtured correctly. 

IMO the Games industry has forgotten that they're about "fun".  Sooner or later somebody will figure this out.

Modifié par PlasmaJohn, 24 septembre 2012 - 09:27 .

[WebShaman]

PJ said :

IMO the Games industry has forgotten that they're about "fun". Sooner or later somebody will figure this out.

I would add "again" at the end of this, as NWN and I would also add in Tactics Ogre : LUCT to that list as well definitely are good examples of the fun part.