55 réponses à ce sujet

[dragonflight288]

This thread is a twist on the standard "let's repeat our arguments in favor of templars or mages." This thread is not meant to discuss the evils of the abuse of power by the Chantry or by Tevinter mages and the chance another one may rise, etc.

Instead, I'd like to focus on the virtues and strengths of both sides, and see what the supporters of each group were to have a blank slate on building a system on how to treat mages and others.

Example: Instead of focusing on how a mage cannot drop his/her magical power like a soldier can drop a sword, so they are always dangerous, but instead focus on how the mage drop the power to heal others and treat diseases and injuries while a hospital may run out of medical supplies.

Example: Instead of talking of templars as abusive jailors who take advantage of their power over mages, discuss how the individual templar out on patrol may use their power to help someone from a rogue abomination or mage criminal, or even fighting darkspawn emissaries during blights.

The negatives of each side has been repeated countless times, so I'd like a thread  focus on the positives and come up with various compromises that we, the players who support these groups, may be willing to see happen.

What is a templar supporter willing to give up with their templars if they insist on mages being locked in a Circle all the time due to the danger? Would they be willing to let mages govern themselves but stay locked up? Shift mages around to keep the veil from thinning too much over time? Have a garrison in the nearest town so the mages can contact them easily should rogue mages pop up?

What is the mage supporter willing to give up should the templars allow them to leave the Circles? Would they be willing to live in small communities? Have mandatory military service before freedom? Would the Harrowing be kept to appease the templars and a mage not be allowed to leave until the Harrowing is passed? Should the Rite of Tranquility be a punishment for extreme crimes, like using blood magic to make someone do something against their will, or rape/murder? (crimes that can be worth the death penalty, but keep the mage alive and have them be useful instead of just a corpse?)

Please try and stay positive. We all know about tevinter blood mages and abusive templars like Alrik and Kerras (and that one templar in Awakening who decided her own authority superceded the King or Queen's and the Grey Warden's right to conscript anyone.) Since we know about them, we don't need to bring them up all the time.

What do the templars demand to keep? What are they willing to lose to keep it? Same thing to the mages.

I recognize that the negatives will be brought up because they are so prevalent, but please try to offshoot it with something positive about them as well.

[nightscrawl]

dragonflight288 wrote...

This thread is a twist on the standard "let's repeat our arguments in favor of templars or mages." This thread is not meant to discuss the evils of the abuse of power by the Chantry or by Tevinter mages and the chance another one may rise, etc.

Instead, I'd like to focus on the virtues and strengths of both sides, and see what the supporters of each group were to have a blank slate on building a system on how to treat mages and others.

I've mentioned this in several threads and I'll mention it in this one. Separate the templars from the Chantry. That's it, that's my only solution. I think that templars are needed, but not if they can't look beyond mages/magic as a curse or a sin in religious terms. Being the army of a religious organization means they cannot do their jobs objectively.

And they do have important jobs because there are crazy, power-hungry mages. Their skills are needed. They're needed in the same way that we need the police to catch criminals or stop violent confrontations (man I'd love to see templars responding to a domestic involving a mage husband and wife), saving innocent bystanders as well as the individuals involved.

[LobselVith8]

The Hero of Ferelden can ask for precisely that, Nizaris1 - the Magi boon is from Origins is about granting the Circle of Ferelden autonomy from the Chantry of Andraste and the Order of Templars. The developers changed the outcome of this boon for Awakening, Witch Hunt, and Dragon Age II, but the intent was about allowing mages to govern themselves. Queen Anora and King Alistair will publicly agree that mages have earned the right to govern themselves. I imagine some mages desire this outcome, which could make a compromise with templars unfeasible.

I think the concept of a realistic compromise is difficult to envision, because mages and templars want the exact opposite of the other. I think other people would be better suited to imagining what mages and templars could concede to achieve a lasting peace.

[Insaner Robot]

Governance of both the circle mages and the templars by someone other than the chantry would be required. With the templars there to guard the mages from themselves just as much as anybody else. And both groups answerable to the same degree to the same authority, so that mages could complain about templar corruption and templars could make complaints about blood magic corruption.

But mages need somewhere like the circle to teach them control of their power and how to protect themselves from demons.
A good example is Meredith, her hatred of mages came from her sister. She had the 'gift' of magic and the family feared losing her so they hid her, she became an abomination because she had no control and couldn't guard against demons. This resulted in the slaughter of her family leaving Meredith the only survivor.

The secret could be in moderation, not removing all of a mages freedom, allowing contoct with family. And as they advance in their skills and show that they can protect themselves from demons allow more and more autonomy.

Modifié par Insaner Robot, 12 août 2012 - 07:20 .

[dragonflight288]

Insaner Robot wrote...

Governance of both the circle mages and the templars by someone other than the chantry would be required. With the templars there to guard the mages from themselves just as much as anybody else. And both groups answerable to the same degree to the same authority, so that mages could complain about templar corruption and templars could make complaints about blood magic corruption.

But mages need somewhere like the circle to teach them control of their power and how to protect themselves from demons.
A good example is Meredith, her hatred of mages came from her sister. She had the 'gift' of magic and the family feared losing her so they hid her, she became an abomination because she had no control and couldn't guard against demons. This resulted in the slaughter of her family leaving Meredith the only survivor.

The secret could be in moderation, not removing all of a mages freedom, allowing contoct with family. And as they advance in their skills and show that they can protect themselves from demons allow more and more autonomy.

Could be. But there are some templar supporters who are absolutely adamant that a mage must stay in the Circle their entire lives as the potential danger of them being free is too great. Many templars in Thedas absolutely refuse to accept anything else.

Should a compromise arise from that, that the mages need to stay in their towers, what then, should the templars lose to allow the mages to be more autonomous and independent? Would the templars simply not live in the tower and have a nearby garrison and do weekly inspections of the apprentices, monthly inspections of the Enchanters? Would phylacteries still be around?

[Insaner Robot]

I think phylacteries could still be useful for the purposes of law enforcement, someone other than the templars or the mages would retain them releasing if needed to hunt a maleficarum or abomination who has fled or gone into hiding. Even then apprehension not execution should be the objective, unless 100% certain it is an abomination.

I like the idea of a garrison either adjacent to or within a short march of a tower, but perhaps with an officer and a small group housed within the tower mainly for the security of the mages, protecting the tower rather than keeping the mages like jailers. with regular perhaps daily communication (runners or ravens) with with action being taken by the templars either at a request of tower officials/ guard captain or at a loss of communication.

But would it really be a loss, the templars duty guard against mage corruption and the dangers of demon possessed mages wouldn't actually change perhaps even the harrowing would ramain as the final exam. Though possibly with a second experienced mage journeying into the fade without the mage being tested knowing to step in should failure look likely, with the templars being a final solution should that fail.
Surely it would only require compromise on both parts with mages accepting the necessity of the templars duty amd their place alongside them. And templars accepting that the mages are infact people not monsters and cutting back some of the more extreme precautions.

[dragonflight288]

Possible ideas. Like I said, this thread is to try and challenge us to look at the positives of both sides, and hopefully find something there that we all like or at the very least, can respect.

[LolaLei]

dragonflight288 wrote...

Possible ideas. Like I said, this thread is to try and challenge us to look at the positives of both sides, and hopefully find something there that we all like or at the very least, can respect.

Lol good luck with that!

[dragonflight288]

LolaLei wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

Possible ideas. Like I said, this thread is to try and challenge us to look at the positives of both sides, and hopefully find something there that we all like or at the very least, can respect.

Lol good luck with that!

Can't blame a bloke for trying. I still expect this'll turn into another calling both sides out for all their negatives by the middle of page 2, but it's still worth a shot to try and focus on the positives.

Take me. I'm a mage supporter. I feel the Templars recruitment methods need to change, and I want the established lore on lyrium to made clear. Gaider said that templars require lyrium, but Alistair says otherwise and he hadn't taken any lyrium while training because he hadn't made his vows. I know it's kind of expected that we ignore that scene...but I can't. It's in the game, so it's an established part of the lore. It's right there for new players as well. They come in, hear that and are all 'Yeah, okay, the Chantry keeps its templars addicted, power-hungry-hypocrites...' but are told in the novels and the lead writer that lyrium is required. Do we ignore the game and a person who was there, training for it? And if we do, what's to stop Gaider or the other writer's from forgetting about another piece of lore and they write something that contradicts something that was also already established?

BUT, I do respect the templars in what they stand for. Protecting mages from the world, as Wynne says, angry mobs do kill mage children as they're discovered and blame them for things going wrong that the child in question had possibly no connection too. And to also protect the world from rogue mages and abominations.

A mage criminal is just as accountable for their own actions as a regular bandit is. I feel a mage, due to having all that extra power, should be held to a higher standard or have more consequences to magical crimes (like using blood magic to forcibly remove the free-will of someone else.) A trained templar unit is better equipped to fight a rogue mage than a town guard.

Also, there are good, decent templars who fight to defend people because they feel it's right. Bryant stayed behind in Lothering to defend the refugees, and he likely was killed by the Darkspawn because of it (not that I know that for a fact.) Otto volunteered to investigate the alienage despite being blind, because he felt the need to do his duty to help others. He didn't know it was a magical event with the violence at the orphanage tearing the veil and allowing demons to come through.

Gregoire is often seen as a good Knight-Commander because of his willingness to work with Irving, even if the two are at each other's throats. Add in that he was willing to take a mages word over the blood magic problems over Cullen's, one of his own templars, because he respected Irving. (minus him being opposed to sending more than seven mages to Ostagar, actually thinking seven was too much.)

Kerran was more than willing to abandon the templar order in DA2 and become a mercenary because his consciouse wouldn't allow him continue serving Meredith, or engage in kidnapping under Thrask.

Thrask went mage to mage, templar to templar, teaching them that they don't have to fear or hate each other, and for the first time that I know of in Thedas history, had templars and mages working together for a common goal, the removal of Meredith...granted his biggest mistake was recruiting Grace.

If we had more templars like these ones, I suspect most of the problems with the Circle would be resolved in some fashion, if not perfectly (nothing in life is perfect.)

[Insaner Robot]

Double post

Modifié par Insaner Robot, 13 août 2012 - 12:56 .

[Melca36]

If a mage is willing to turn and/or possibly kill any mages who abuse their power for their own personal gain...they should be free or at least have some increased freedoms.

Modifié par Melca36, 13 août 2012 - 12:54 .

[Insaner Robot]

Insaner Robot wrote...

Possible ideas. Like I said, this thread is to try and challenge us to look at the positives of both sides, and hopefully find something there that we all like or at the very least, can respect.

A noble sentiment.

If only more people, in reality and in game, wanted to try and find a middle ground that everybody can live with.


As an aside I always worked with the mages in both games.

(oops, hit quote instead of edit, sorry. But it's late and I'm tired)

Modifié par Insaner Robot, 13 août 2012 - 12:56 .

[dragonflight288]

Insaner Robot wrote...

Insaner Robot wrote...

Possible ideas. Like I said, this thread is to try and challenge us to look at the positives of both sides, and hopefully find something there that we all like or at the very least, can respect.

A noble sentiment.

If only more people, in reality and in game, wanted to try and find a middle ground that everybody can live with.


As an aside I always worked with the mages in both games.

(oops, hit quote instead of edit, sorry. But it's late and I'm tired)

That's cool.

One good quote I heard about compromises, I thought was pretty funny, but also pretty true.

"A good compromise is one where all the parties feel cheated."

[LolaLei]

I agree OP.

I think somewhere along the way the Templars (or the Chantry that controls them) lost their way. The problem is that things have gone on like this for so long that we have a catch 22 situation. I feel like it will take something catastrophic (and possibly un-Templar/Mage related) for the whole system to be torn down to start afresh.

All I know for sure is that the current system is heavily flawed and is detrimental to both Mages and Templars alike. The fact that according to the DA2 codex Templars like to recruit zealots is a bad thing, especially now they've broken away from the Chantry and gone rogue, however that could be a good thing since there's bound to be a few good sympathetic Templars left that didn't flow the flock, who can maybe form a new Order, one that will work together with Mages to work out what's best for everyone... Hey, a girl can dream LOL!

[Xilizhra]

I'm sorry, but I don't believe there can be any compromise with the Templar Order as it exists now. The very most I'm willing to allow is converts away from it to join the new order if they weren't involved in any atrocities. The Order itself must be cast into oblivion for eternity.

The concept of nonmagical soldiers who can defend against demonic incursions is a good one, but I'll not discuss it with any hint of the Chantry left on it. Is this acceptable?

[LolaLei]

Xilizhra wrote...

I'm sorry, but I don't believe there can be any compromise with the Templar Order as it exists now. The very most I'm willing to allow is converts away from it to join the new order if they weren't involved in any atrocities. The Order itself must be cast into oblivion for eternity.

The concept of nonmagical soldiers who can defend against demonic incursions is a good one, but I'll not discuss it with any hint of the Chantry left on it. Is this acceptable?

Works for me!

[Xilizhra]

Very well. I made a thread about my idea for forming towns around the Circles to better allow the mages to acclimatize to mundanes, as well as not letting sentinels inside the towers. Additionally, the sentinels would have a stronger vote in matters to do with mundane interactions, but the mages would have total control over purely magical matters.

BUT, I do respect the templars in what they stand for. Protecting mages from the world, as Wynne says, angry mobs do kill mage children as they're discovered and blame them for things going wrong that the child in question had possibly no connection too. And to also protect the world from rogue mages and abominations.

I do not. I consider the Order inherently tainted and in need of destruction. My purpose for the sentinels is to fundamentally be an arm of the Circle of Magi that serves to defend it from otherworldly threats, with a sort of bonus duty of magical law enforcement when the mages can't deal with that themselves.

[MisterJB]

Asking for the complete destruction of the Templar Order is just as extremist as claiming that this entire generation of mages is lost and should all be slaugthered.
As a Pro-Templar, I tought the purpose of this thread was to reach a compromise between both sides. The obliteration of the one we disagree with is not a compromise.

The disassociation with the Chantry is a different issue. I disagree that it should happen but it should be open to discussion.

[Xilizhra]

Allow me to remind you that it's the Order that needs to be destroyed, not that every single templar needs to be killed. The two things are different.

[MisterJB]

It's still against the point of this thread which is to consider possible compromises between templars and mages.
You are just calling for the destruction of the side you disagree with.

[Xilizhra]

What else can I do? Deprogram and rename everyone in the Order? How could I trust them to hold up their end of any compromise after their history?

[LolaLei]

I wouldn't say "destruction", just dismantled and a different plan put into place, one that can be beneficial to everyone.

... Except the rapey, torturey ones. We can kill those.

Modifié par LolaLei, 13 août 2012 - 02:01 .