55 réponses à ce sujet

[MisterJB]

And how can templars trust the mages to hold up their end of the compromise after their story?
Because both sides, mundanes and mages, have done horrible things to each other. But just like not every mage is a magister, not every templar is Meredith.

[Ausstig]

Maybe after a Mage passes their tests they get given a choice, join the Wardens or stay in the tower and only got out with groups of Templars to heal people. Also give the Circles a garden, and an actors guild something to do all day other then study, also allow SOME visits. I know the Fereldan Circle did have daily exercises before Anders escaped and ruined it for everyone.

[LolaLei]

Yeah, I mean, if there gonna lock them up then at least give them somewhere bigger with a decent amount of land to run around in.

[dragonflight288]

Hmm. How about this.

A circle is set up in an area with a relatively small hamlet nearby. A small garrison of templars is placed there, the Knight-Commander and only enough templars to guard the Circle itself from the villagers or raiders are at the tower itself. The rest, when they aren't on duty, are helping train the town guard in templar abilities. The town guard does not answer to the Chantry, but to the bann or arl of the area. Should anything happen with the mages, you'll have not only the templars, but a perhaps a small regiment of soldiers who may not have the equipment, but they do have all the abilities of the templars, and are fully prepared to respond.

This will gradually move the templar order outside of the Chantry, open the common man's perceptions on magic as they'll have to deal with it, and the mages get to be more autonomous and have more freedoms than the current exploded system had.

Thoughts?

[dragonflight288]

MisterJB wrote...

And how can templars trust the mages to hold up their end of the compromise after their story?
Because both sides, mundanes and mages, have done horrible things to each other. But just like not every mage is a magister, not every templar is Meredith.

I agree. Both sides have guilty parties. Both sides have committed their own atrocities. If any sort of compromise would work at all, both sides have to be willing to give and take a little trust. Maybe take it in increasing intervals of time? See how it works for a week, then a month, then a year, and regroup and adapt when things go wrong.

[dragonflight288]

Ausstig wrote...

Maybe after a Mage passes their tests they get given a choice, join the Wardens or stay in the tower and only got out with groups of Templars to heal people. Also give the Circles a garden, and an actors guild something to do all day other then study, also allow SOME visits. I know the Fereldan Circle did have daily exercises before Anders escaped and ruined it for everyone.

Darn triple post, but here I go.

But what if the mage in question wished to serve in the King's army? Say Ferelden ends up in a war with Orlais, would the mages of Orlais and Ferelden have the right to serve their country and be rewarded for their service? (Wilhelm did this and was allowed to live outside the Circle, marry and have his son Mathias because of it....very rare for a mage.)

[nightscrawl]

--- Asunder SPOILER warning ---

dragonflight288 wrote...

Take me. I'm a mage supporter. I feel the Templars recruitment methods need to change, and I want the established lore on lyrium to made clear. Gaider said that templars require lyrium, but Alistair says otherwise and he hadn't taken any lyrium while training because he hadn't made his vows. I know it's kind of expected that we ignore that scene...but I can't. It's in the game, so it's an established part of the lore. It's right there for new players as well. They come in, hear that and are all 'Yeah, okay, the Chantry keeps its templars addicted, power-hungry-hypocrites...' but are told in the novels and the lead writer that lyrium is required. Do we ignore the game and a person who was there, training for it? And if we do, what's to stop Gaider or the other writer's from forgetting about another piece of lore and they write something that contradicts something that was also already established?

I'm not disagreeing here about clarifying some of these templar abilities in the lore, but in general this is a problem with lore vs gameplay mechanic issues. If you have a warrior who at level 7 learns the templar specialization, does he go from using stamina to mana, and start chugging lyrium like your mage does? Templars aren't the only ones this applies to. It's suggested that mages need lyrium too, but you don't have  to use it while you're playing, it's not a requirement to cast spells -- in DA2 on casual mode and DAO on easy it's entirely possible to go through most of the game without using a lyrium potion, perhaps only on certain boss fights.

In general I think it's bad form to deliberately write something that you can't support with your game mechanics. =/ I think it's an issue that needs to be addressed in some form or other.

That said, the mages, templars, and the Chantry don't know everything, as was shown in Asunder by revelaing the mage who had been restored (or "come back," however you want to term it) after tranquility, and partially illustrated when Karl briefly returns to normal after Justice appears. I think this gives them tremendous leeway in coming up with whatever solution they want. I just would like a resolution to the gameplay vs dialogue conflicts regarding this.

Modifié par nightscrawl, 13 août 2012 - 07:31 .

[Ausstig]

dragonflight288 wrote...

Ausstig wrote...

Maybe after a Mage passes their tests they get given a choice, join the Wardens or stay in the tower and only got out with groups of Templars to heal people. Also give the Circles a garden, and an actors guild something to do all day other then study, also allow SOME visits. I know the Fereldan Circle did have daily exercises before Anders escaped and ruined it for everyone.

Darn triple post, but here I go.

But what if the mage in question wished to serve in the King's army? Say Ferelden ends up in a war with Orlais, would the mages of Orlais and Ferelden have the right to serve their country and be rewarded for their service? (Wilhelm did this and was allowed to live outside the Circle, marry and have his son Mathias because of it....very rare for a mage.)

No. 

A mage must forgo links to their nation, they shall have no sons and own no land, they act for the good of all (except for people under the Qun) Thedas or not at all. They fight Darkspawn and outside threats, but not internal matters. 

[EricHVela]

Even mages need mundane assistance now and then (and not as slaves or sacrifices). Magic doesn't provide a solution for everything. The Templars' conditioning also provides a particular asset to helping the mages.

Even powerful mages have difficulty fighting Blood Magic and Abominations. According to Alistair, Templars are supposed to have some immunity to magic and are supposed to be good at stopping Abominations. They could be a valuable ally for mages to "police themselves". It would be unwise to turn away such an ally. (Though, I have yet to see Templars exhibit those talents.)

Modifié par ReggarBlane, 13 août 2012 - 01:52 .

[dragonflight288]

Ausstig wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

Ausstig wrote...

Maybe after a Mage passes their tests they get given a choice, join the Wardens or stay in the tower and only got out with groups of Templars to heal people. Also give the Circles a garden, and an actors guild something to do all day other then study, also allow SOME visits. I know the Fereldan Circle did have daily exercises before Anders escaped and ruined it for everyone.

Darn triple post, but here I go.

But what if the mage in question wished to serve in the King's army? Say Ferelden ends up in a war with Orlais, would the mages of Orlais and Ferelden have the right to serve their country and be rewarded for their service? (Wilhelm did this and was allowed to live outside the Circle, marry and have his son Mathias because of it....very rare for a mage.)

No. 

A mage must forgo links to their nation, they shall have no sons and own no land, they act for the good of all (except for people under the Qun) Thedas or not at all. They fight Darkspawn and outside threats, but not internal matters. 

Okay, so does that mean that the templars, or the templar equivalents must also do the same?

[General User]

dragonflight288 wrote...

What is a templar supporter willing to give up with their templars if they insist on mages being locked in a Circle all the time due to the danger? Would they be willing to let mages govern themselves but stay locked up?

Why should mages be "locked up" at all?  As long the mages in question are trained in their magic and no undue danger to the public that is.

dragonflight288 wrote...

Shift mages around to keep the veil from thinning too much over time?

Now... I was under the impresssion that suffering and cruelty were the sort of things that "thinned" the Veil, not neccessarily the mere use of magic.

dragonflight288 wrote...

Have a garrison in the nearest town so the mages can contact them easily should rogue mages pop up?

That sounds like a sensible precaution.

dragonflight288 wrote...

Would they be willing to live in small communities?

Small, medium, large... as long as long the mages in question are trained in their magic and no undue danger to the public, I don't see any reason to limit where they personally choose to live. The local communites will, of course, have their own opinions on the matter, and the mages in question should, of course, have to defer to the collective wishes of any community they seek to join.

dragonflight288 wrote...

Have mandatory military service before freedom?

Thedas is (for all intents and purposes) a feudal society.  Military service is more or less mandatory for everyone.  That's actually something that (hithertofore) set mages above non-mages.  For mages, when the local potentate put out the call, there was a chance the mages might not have to answer.

dragonflight288 wrote...

Would the Harrowing be kept to appease the templars and a mage not be allowed to leave until the Harrowing is passed?

The Harrowing is the best test I've yet seen of a mage's ability to resist possession.  Until someone comes up with something better, I say keep it.

dragonflight288 wrote...

Should the Rite of Tranquility be a punishment for extreme crimes, like using blood magic to make someone do something against their will, or rape/murder? (crimes that can be worth the death penalty, but keep the mage alive and have them be useful instead of just a corpse?)

Off the top of my head, I cannot think of any crimes serious enough to deserve Tranquility for which death would not also be a just punishment, and way easier to carry out the sentence.  I think the Rite of Tranquility should be used much like modern medicine uses lobotomization, as a last resort for those who truely cannot be helped by any other means (for mages in Thedas that would mean being unable to resist demons).

Modifié par General User, 13 août 2012 - 05:52 .

[Big I]

Mages should be integrated into wider society if for no other reason than the good they can do. Mages make the best exorcists because they can sense where the Veil is thin. Mages can communicate with each other over huge distances, especially useful when everyone else has only medieval communications. In a society without doctors, vaccines or anti-biotics mages are the only credible source of healthcare. Basically having mage services available for purchase is the best thing for society.


On another note, the Harrowing is ridiculous. They toss children and the unprepared to demons, and whoever's lucky enough to survive is allowed to live. To compound the hypocrisy they STILL don't trust mages, even if they've been Harrowed. It's not even necessary; the Hawkes and the Dalish Keepers don't need it, and based on all the possessions in Kirkwall it's efficacy is highly questionable.

[dragonflight288]

[quote]General User wrote...

[quote]dragonflight288 wrote...

What is a templar supporter willing to give up with their templars if they insist on mages being locked in a Circle all the time due to the danger? Would they be willing to let mages govern themselves but stay locked up? [/quote]Why should mages be "locked up" at all?  As long the mages in question are trained in their magic and no undue danger to the public that is.[/quote]

Take that up with the templars. I have no problems with mages having a mandatory learning period and test to prove they can defend themselves, and then letting them free. Templars however.....

[quote][quote]dragonflight288 wrote...

Shift mages around to keep the veil from thinning too much over time? [/quote]Now... I was under the impresssion that suffering and cruelty were the sort of things that "thinned" the Veil, not neccessarily the mere use of magic.[/quote]

Suffering does thin the veil, but so too does concentrated magic. Anywhere where mages gather and practice magic consistently, the veil also weakens. Violence can tear the veil in wars, such as the Brecilian Forest. And where the veil is thin, so too come the demons.

[quote][quote]dragonflight288 wrote...

Have a garrison in the nearest town so the mages can contact them easily should rogue mages pop up?[/quote]That sounds like a sensible precaution.[/quote]

I thought so.

[quote][quote]dragonflight288 wrote...

Would they be willing to live in small communities? [/quote]Small, medium, large... as long as long the mages in question are trained in their magic and no undue danger to the public, I don't see any reason to limit where they personally choose to live. The local communites will, of course, have their own opinions on the matter, and the mages in question should, of course, have to defer to the collective wishes of any community they seek to join.[/quote]

Again...the templars take issue with mages living anywhere near people, irregardless of population size. They generally only allow mages to leave the tower on official business, or the tranquil to settle in towns as merchants and enchanters as a way to provide the Circle its funds.

[quote][quote]dragonflight288 wrote...

Have mandatory military service before freedom? [/quote]Thedas is (for all intents and purposes) a feudal society.  Military service is more or less mandatory for everyone.  That's actually something that (hithertofore) set mages above non-mages.  For mages, when the local potentate put out the call, there was a chance the mages might not have to answer.[/quote]

Or in the case of the magi origin story, a chance where the mages would be denied the opportunity to serve, or even enlist. Gregoire was against sending seven mages to war. Seven for an entire army....I'm with Duncan there. I'd like to see at least two mages for every contingent of soldiers. Most simply aren't allowed to go.

[quote][quote]dragonflight288 wrote...

Would the Harrowing be kept to appease the templars and a mage not be allowed to leave until the Harrowing is passed? [/quote]The Harrowing is the best test I've yet seen of a mage's ability to resist possession.  Until someone comes up with something better, I say keep it.[/quote]

Best you've seen? While this is a subjective statement (meaning if I disagree, we are both completely right...but only to the individual, unlike objective statements where the facts say this statement is 100% accurate and it cannot be disputed) but having only played in Ferelden, the most liberal of all Circle's, and Kirkwall, all I can say is that it's the only method seen. We don't know what the mages of the Chasind or the Rivaini seers do. We know Rivaini seers allow themselves to be possessed by spirits (could be demons or situations like Anders, spirits of some virtue or another), and that the populace would rather die than let the Chantry or the Qun take them away.

[quote][quote]dragonflight288 wrote...

Should the Rite of Tranquility be a punishment for extreme crimes, like using blood magic to make someone do something against their will, or rape/murder? (crimes that can be worth the death penalty, but keep the mage alive and have them be useful instead of just a corpse?)[/quote] Off the top of my head, I cannot think of any crimes serious enough to deserve Tranquility for which death would not also be a just punishment, and way easier to carry out the sentence.  I think the Rite of Tranquility should be used much like modern medicine uses lobotomization, as a last resort for those who truely cannot be helped by any other means (for mages in Thedas that would mean being unable to resist demons).
[/quote][/quote]

And that's a perfectly fair belief. I was simply raising possibilities.

[General User]

dragonflight288 wrote...

Take that up with the templars. I have no problems with mages having a
mandatory learning period and test to prove they can defend themselves,
and then letting them free. Templars however.....

I favor a probation-like system, where mages who have proven themselves trustworthy and able to resist demons would be allowed to settle where they please (provided that "where they please" they choose will have them of course) so long as they stay registered with a "probation officer."

dragonflight288 wrote...

Suffering does thin the veil, but so too does concentrated magic.
Anywhere where mages gather and practice magic consistently, the veil
also weakens. Violence can tear the veil in wars, such as the Brecilian
Forest. And where the veil is thin, so too come the demons.

Can the Veil also be mended?  I mean, if violence and suffering and concentrated magic can thin the Veil, can kindess and, umm... sunshine and puppies (and stuff) or maybe other types of magic mend or thicken the Veil?  That might be a public service mages could perform: exorcism and Veil thickening.

dragonflight288 wrote...

Again...the templars take issue with mages living anywhere near people,
irregardless of population size. They generally only allow mages to
leave the tower on official business, or the tranquil to settle in towns
as merchants and enchanters as a way to provide the Circle its funds.

To be honest, I think the Templar Order really stabbed itself in the foot when it went rogue.  I mean, they've shown them selves to be faithless.  Unless the Mage Rebellion turns out to be full of a bunch of Anders-level nutjobs, who would even think to sit down across a negotiating table from the rogue Templar Order? 

dragonflight288 wrote...

Or in the case of the magi origin story, a chance where the mages would
be denied the opportunity to serve, or even enlist. Gregoire was against
sending seven mages to war. Seven for an entire army....I'm with Duncan
there. I'd like to see at least two mages for every contingent of
soldiers. Most simply aren't allowed to go.

I can't imagine that was particularly popular with anyone.  Nobles resenting that their armies are denied magic, commoners resenting that they have to go fight but mages don't, mages resenting that they don't have the opportunity to do their part for King and Country.

dragonflight288 wrote...

Best you've seen? While this is a subjective statement (meaning if I
disagree, we are both completely right...but only to the individual,
unlike objective statements where the facts say this statement is 100%
accurate and it cannot be disputed) but having only played in Ferelden, the most liberal of all Circle's,
and Kirkwall, all I can say is that it's the only method seen. We don't
know what the mages of the Chasind or the Rivaini seers do. We know
Rivaini seers allow themselves to be possessed by spirits (could be
demons or situations like Anders, spirits of some virtue or another),
and that the populace would rather die than let the Chantry or the Qun
take them away.

Well, we've seen the Qunari who seem to assign a chap to watch each individual mage and kill them should they show signs of possession.  Very manpower intensive.

In principle, I like the idea of giving mages tests to determine how far they can be trusted.  And as unfortunate as it may be when a mages fails The Harrowing, the test itself really is a fair one for determining a mages ability to resist demons.

[Xilizhra]

Can the Veil also be mended? I mean, if violence and suffering and concentrated magic can thin the Veil, can kindess and, umm... sunshine and puppies (and stuff) or maybe other types of magic mend or thicken the Veil? That might be a public service mages could perform: exorcism and Veil thickening.

It can be, but it seems to also require blood magic. Or at least, the only mage whom we see can do this is the remarkably experienced blood mage Avernus.

In principle, I like the idea of giving mages tests to determine how far they can be trusted. And as unfortunate as it may be when a mages fails The Harrowing, the test itself really is a fair one for determining a mages ability to resist demons.

It's also evil. There needs to be a safety net of some kind.

[General User]

Xilizhra wrote...

In principle, I like the idea of giving mages tests to determine how far they can be trusted. And as unfortunate as it may be when a mages fails The Harrowing, the test itself really is a fair one for determining a mages ability to resist demons.

It's also evil. There needs to be a safety net of some kind.

The Harrowing might be "evil" in a, as Garrus might say, "ruthless calculus" sort of way maybe.  But, as a test to determine if a mage can indeed resist demons, having them actually face an actual demon is indeed an accurate and fair test regardless of morality.

Now The Harrowing invloves working with live demons, I'm not sure what sort of safety net is even possible, let alone feasible.

Now, that being said, I don't see any reason The Harrowing should be mandatory.  If a given mage does not wish to face a demon and chooses to live out the rest of their life in the relative safety and isolation of a Circle cloister, I see no reason not to let them.

[Xilizhra]

Now The Harrowing invloves working with live demons, I'm not sure what sort of safety net is even possible, let alone feasible.

Have a more experienced mage enter the Fade at the same time, who can wait nearby and kill the demon if the apprentice seems to be in danger of being overwhelmed. As a mage Hawke will refer to "hav[ing] braved the Fade before" in Night Terrors, this seems to be what Malcolm did.

[MisterJB]

Do it in secret, tough. Having the apprentice think it's a Do or Die situation will help bring out the best in him. Or terrorize him to the point where he will be unable to move from the spot.

Also, demonic tricks and temptations only work if the apprentice doesn't know there is a more experienced mage nearby who will stop him from doing anything stupid. Of course, if the apprentice was foolish enough to not see through Mouse, then one could question just how prepared he really is to deal with demons.

[Xilizhra]

Noted, but the Harrowing is supposed to be training. They don't train firefighters by going out and setting someone's house on fire. A death rate of as close to zero as possible should be the main priority.

[dragonflight288]

MisterJB wrote...

Do it in secret, tough. Having the apprentice think it's a Do or Die situation will help bring out the best in him. Or terrorize him to the point where he will be unable to move from the spot.

Also, demonic tricks and temptations only work if the apprentice doesn't know there is a more experienced mage nearby who will stop him from doing anything stupid. Of course, if the apprentice was foolish enough to not see through Mouse, then one could question just how prepared he really is to deal with demons.

Interesting idea. Mages who passed the Harrowing as of things ar now are told to keep the Harrowing secret as is. If an experienced mage is there secretly to observe and prevent a possession, they see how the mage functions in the 'sink-or-swim' moment.

The trouble that comes after, is keeping the mage quiet on the Harrowing if they don't rise above apprentice for this, or if we require the mage to go through again, they now know that a mage is observing and won't have the same subconscious preparation to stand on their own. They may think that they'll be let off the hook if they fail.

[Xilizhra]

The trouble that comes after, is keeping the mage quiet on the Harrowing if they don't rise above apprentice for this, or if we require the mage to go through again, they now know that a mage is observing and won't have the same subconscious preparation to stand on their own. They may think that they'll be let off the hook if they fail.

If that's a problem, there's magic capable of erasing memories.

[General User]

It doesn't have to be that complicated.  Let's face it, as brutal as The Harrowing may or may not be, the test itself is not particularly difficult. By keeping a few general principles in mind, and with a few relatively basic skills, almost any mage can pass their Harrowing.

Having a more experienced mage follow the mage being tested into the Fade during their Harrowing shouldn't be that big a deal either way.  Especially if part of the senior mage's duties would be to kill the demon if possible and the young mage is necessary to prevent loosing an abomination.

Modifié par General User, 14 août 2012 - 09:13 .

[dragonflight288]

Xilizhra wrote...

The trouble that comes after, is keeping the mage quiet on the Harrowing if they don't rise above apprentice for this, or if we require the mage to go through again, they now know that a mage is observing and won't have the same subconscious preparation to stand on their own. They may think that they'll be let off the hook if they fail.

If that's a problem, there's magic capable of erasing memories.

My memory may be fuzzy, but is that in the lore? I don't recall any situation where mages have magically erased anyone's memories. Even the tranquil remember their past lives. They just don't have any emotions to tie to them.

[Xilizhra]

My memory may be fuzzy, but is that in the lore? I don't recall any situation where mages have magically erased anyone's memories. Even the tranquil remember their past lives. They just don't have any emotions to tie to them.

Danarius did so to Fenris.

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

Xilizhra wrote...

My memory may be fuzzy, but is that in the lore? I don't recall any situation where mages have magically erased anyone's memories. Even the tranquil remember their past lives. They just don't have any emotions to tie to them.

Danarius did so to Fenris.

And he does it again if you give him back. The apparent costliness of the proceduce makes me inclined to think it's not a common thing, and the memories can return as Fenris shows, but yes, it can be done.