86 réponses à ce sujet

[Original182]

Apophis2412 wrote...

kesayo2 wrote...

Now that I'm queen, Howe's family is toast.

Since when do we punish children for theirfather's crimes?

It's more a case of an eye for an eye. Howe killed your family, so you can kill his in return.

Of course it's not right, but in the context of Ferelden and the middle ages, that's just how it is.

[Original182]

Vicious wrote...
Because it's an utterly genius move. Casteless are worthless, they do absolutely nothing but beg or turn towards a life of crime because society literally gives them no other option, they can be killed for entering the diamond quarter, for gods sake.

However if you give them a chance, 1) You become their hero, and 2) There are a LOT of them. The Dwarf Commoner origin gives some insight on this - They can fight, and fight well, and are willing to work hard if given a chance. Having casteless does nothing but weaken Orzammar. It would be a good thing to get rid of them.

Of course I agree with all these things. But we have to look at it from Bhelen's and the royal family's point of view.

Like I said, Bhelen seems like someone who is out to get himself. Even the Codex entry for Bhelen says his greatest trait isn't that he is the most loved, just that he knows how to get out of trouble.

By default, every dwarf would not care about the casteless. The royal family would also uphold tradition.

The only link between Bhelen and the casteless, is that he took Rica as a concubine. You're telling me Rica is the only reason he changed his attitude towards casteless? It seems likely, but I don't know if it's a strong enough reason.

That is why I try to reconcile Bhelen's personality with the casteless move by saying he did it for political points. I don't think he's a good dwarf, else he would try to reason with his family instead of have them all killed.

[Apophis2412]

The death of Beraht and Jarvia brought the end og the Carta. Now Bhelen is the only one who offers them a chance at a better life. In other words, the casteless have no one else to turn to .

[ozenglish]

Dress Alistair up in a dress, cut out his tongue for all of his flying dog family remarks and make him join the silent sisters under pain of being insulted by Morrigan, seeing that I have her ring, I will find her lol.

[ozenglish]

Maconbar wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...

A Golden Dragon wrote...

He killed his Brothers, and most likely his father.

Did he do it out of malice?

Most societies frown upon fratricide and patricide is an even bigger no no.

The point Uhl is referring to is that we are playing a game based on mediaevil society. Trying to judge a different time with our own current and albeit not very good moral codes is a pointless task indeed.

If you had to organize the dwarves in this game, in real life, I think personally, Bhelen has it right. There are many things that get put aside, to improve the greater good. Many modern revolutions reflect this. Try not to judge a game using modern standards, unless it is set in modern times.  Makes gameplay that much more fun too.

[Anton de Staen]

What I'll do when my somewhat less-than-noble noble becomes the king?

Hunt down all remaining dalish, especially the keepers. Fortify the northern and eastern coastlines heavily (Building fortresses, and such.) Offer a huge amount of money to anyone who brings me the plans for Qunari cannons. Send reinforcements to my good friend Bhelen, to help him reclaim the thaigs closest to Orzammar. Send troops to reclaim Ostagar, and hire the finest craftsmen the dwarves have to offer to rebuild it and the Imperial Highway (After all, they helped the imperium build it in the first place) Acquire mages from the Circle and have them fireball all of the Korcari Wilds, to make sure nothing remains in there. Hire the Crows to assassinate Anora in a way that makes it look like an accident, and a whole lot more.

Sufficent to say, I'd be one hell of a king.

[menasure]

my first order is to feed some revered mothers to my werewolves so i can take over the chantry, blame it on the werewolves and relocate the werewolve army in the proces to a more convenient surrounding like the next country to invade ... as a good noble i cant have my guys eating my peasants after all :innocent:

[Creature 1]

Herr Uhl wrote...

kesayo2 wrote...
Actually, the point is to make sure none of Howes supporters who don't like the fact that I killed him come after me. Geez not really good with the concept of treachery and revenge are you?

Nope, and they would be even less pleased by you killing at least from the point I see it innocents.

Find the ones he were conspiring with instead, I say. Mainly Loghain and that guy always supporting Loghain. I hate that guy.

Edit: But then again, I am an idiot.

Killing the families of competitors down to babes in arms is a time-honored tradition in royal politics.  If it didn't work, people wouldn't do it. 

It's probably more likely that if you eradicate the Howes, anyone else who had some notion of trying to seize the throne (if you're king) or kill the last of the Couslands (if you don't become king) would be frightened to try because the consequences would be so severe if they fail. 

My rogue is not merciful when it comes to revenge, so if I get the option I'll have them all killed.  I'll see what happens with my mage, she was not directly wronged by Howe and is more tender-hearted.  

[robertthebard]

As Ruler, I too would kill the Howes, all of them. Is it because I think it's the good thing to do? No, but I told Howe I would kill his family next, and I always keep my word.

[Kohaku]

I don't remember what did. I think it was giving the elves freedom or something.

[Sialater]

Uh, actually, Bhelen did it all for love. He was in love with a Casteless woman.

[Creature 1]

Sialater wrote...

Uh, actually, Bhelen did it all for love. He was in love with a Casteless woman.

And David sent Uriah to the front of battle so he would be killed and David could marry Bathsheba, but he was still a real bastard for doing it.

[fantasypisces]

I've sided with Both bhelen and harrowmont on different playthroughs and always got 50 dwarves. Plus the legion of the dead guys because I persuaded them.

[Sialater]

Creature 1 wrote...

Sialater wrote...

Uh, actually, Bhelen did it all for love. He was in love with a Casteless woman.

And David sent Uriah to the front of battle so he would be killed and David could marry Bathsheba, but he was still a real bastard for doing it.

I don't dispute Bhelen's bastardy.  I dispute that he did what he did out of evil.  Frankly the dwarves were a dying race because of their own stupidity.  If it takes a bit of ruthlessness to break them out of that downward spiral... well, you can't make an omlette without breaking eggs.

[ejoslin]

Original182 wrote...

Eventhough murder in Orzammar politics is commonplace, murdering your own brothers still crosses the line. If that's not an evil act, what else is? People like to go there's no evil, take it out of your vocabulary, but I think the real problem is people don't seem to know what evil is anymore. You put a murderer on the throne, and Orzammar politics will be the same.

But I still would choose Bhelen because Orzammar becomes more stable and the casteless people are treated more humanely.

I still don't understand why Bhelen wanted to remove casteless caste. Throughout the game he is portrayed as someone who only wants to win, and is only out for himself. I think he could have done it to win political points, and not out of the kindness of his heart.

You need to play the Dwarven commoner origin.  Bhelen falls in love with a casteless woman (the dwarven commoner's sister) and has a child with her.  He changes his entire society so he can be with her.  

[Sialater]

And believe me, Orzammar needs to be changed. Shades of Mos Eisley, anyone?

[cutieyum]

A Golden Dragon wrote...

He killed his Brothers, and most likely his father.

Really... He rid the dwarves of other SOBs, not as smart as he was in order to advance the dying Dwarven society. It is mentioned that the Dwarfs are a dying society, low reproduction rates, trapped in 2 thaigs with little communication with others, strict clan and caste organization that impedes their advancement in technology and reproduction, only ones advancing trade become casteless. The smith caste relies on casteless merchants to go to the surface to the trading. They are dying because of their misguided traditions, which no longer fit with the new world paradigm... Sure, sending casteless to fight the darkspawn helps them a bit, but they are down to two, two cities.

Bhelen does the Dwarfs a favor and becomes a dictator, enacting sweeping reforms on the social organization of the kingdom, such a thing is always violent and extreme. In the case of the dwarfs, he has it right, either he rules and ruthelessly enacts such policies or his people are doomed in the long-run. He opens Ozammar to the outside, gives the Casteless opportunities to elevate themselves out of their caste, and disbands the Assembly when they oppose him. Horribly bad for the Nobles who were the only ones with voices and votes. Good for everyone else.

Edit: Bhelen doesn't accept his place in the heirarchy, 3rd son and
such, he makes he takes control of his destiny. Maybe he loved his
father, but he did what he had to do in order to enact his plan. Not
any different than a Grey Warden.

Long live Bhelen.

Modifié par cutieyum, 22 décembre 2009 - 04:55 .

[Sialater]

Oh, and my first order as Elf Mage Chancellor: capitol punishment is hereby suspended. All murderers and rapists and incorrigible thieves are sent to reinforce the Legion of the Dead, Grey Warden initiation optional.

[cutieyum]

double post

Modifié par cutieyum, 22 décembre 2009 - 04:54 .

[Kohaku]

I'm totally choosing him next time. I should have realized from the get go that Harrowmont was going to be a ****** poor choice.

[bobsmyuncle]

Sialater wrote...

Oh, and my first order as Elf Mage Chancellor: capitol punishment is hereby suspended. All murderers and rapists and incorrigible thieves are sent to reinforce the Legion of the Dead, Grey Warden initiation optional.

Like I'd waste archdemon blood on those suckers. Just send them for the Legion to use as darkspawn bait. Oh, you have to give them incentive to fight too. "If you can survive 1 month with the Legion, you will receive a royal pardon." 

[Sialater]

bobsmyuncle wrote...

Sialater wrote...

Oh, and my first order as Elf Mage Chancellor: capitol punishment is hereby suspended. All murderers and rapists and incorrigible thieves are sent to reinforce the Legion of the Dead, Grey Warden initiation optional.

Like I'd waste archdemon blood on those suckers. Just send them for the Legion to use as darkspawn bait. Oh, you have to give them incentive to fight too. "If you can survive 1 month with the Legion, you will receive a royal pardon." 

I like the way you think.

[Invalidcode]

LOL. So when your army reaches the Dwarf gates and notify what your intention is. The dwarf will just tell you something like this to the commander:



'If you hate the darkspawn this much to the point that, you have to come and hunt down the dwarves that didn't help against the blight? Come join us in the fight in the deep roads, 24/7 non-stop supplies of darkspawn!"



Or they can just tell you it is dwarves own business and sent your army away.

[NvVanity]

cutieyum wrote...

A Golden Dragon wrote...

He killed his Brothers, and most likely his father.

Really... He rid the dwarves of other SOBs, not as smart as he was in order to advance the dying Dwarven society. It is mentioned that the Dwarfs are a dying society, low reproduction rates, trapped in 2 thaigs with little communication with others, strict clan and caste organization that impedes their advancement in technology and reproduction, only ones advancing trade become casteless. The smith caste relies on casteless merchants to go to the surface to the trading. They are dying because of their misguided traditions, which no longer fit with the new world paradigm... Sure, sending casteless to fight the darkspawn helps them a bit, but they are down to two, two cities.

Bhelen does the Dwarfs a favor and becomes a dictator, enacting sweeping reforms on the social organization of the kingdom, such a thing is always violent and extreme. In the case of the dwarfs, he has it right, either he rules and ruthelessly enacts such policies or his people are doomed in the long-run. He opens Ozammar to the outside, gives the Casteless opportunities to elevate themselves out of their caste, and disbands the Assembly when they oppose him. Horribly bad for the Nobles who were the only ones with voices and votes. Good for everyone else.

Edit: Bhelen doesn't accept his place in the heirarchy, 3rd son and
such, he makes he takes control of his destiny. Maybe he loved his
father, but he did what he had to do in order to enact his plan. Not
any different than a Grey Warden.

Long live Bhelen.

Wait a minute. So based on everything your saying, Bhelen is a communist? The Dwarves elected their own Joseph Stalin in a way.

But as King I would say Military Aid for Orzammar. Push back the Darkspawn, reclaim Thaigs and if those frenchie Orlesians try to invade they're going to have to deal with Ferelden and the Dwarves.

[Sialater]

NvVanity wrote...

cutieyum wrote...

A Golden Dragon wrote...

He killed his Brothers, and most likely his father.

Really... He rid the dwarves of other SOBs, not as smart as he was in order to advance the dying Dwarven society. It is mentioned that the Dwarfs are a dying society, low reproduction rates, trapped in 2 thaigs with little communication with others, strict clan and caste organization that impedes their advancement in technology and reproduction, only ones advancing trade become casteless. The smith caste relies on casteless merchants to go to the surface to the trading. They are dying because of their misguided traditions, which no longer fit with the new world paradigm... Sure, sending casteless to fight the darkspawn helps them a bit, but they are down to two, two cities.

Bhelen does the Dwarfs a favor and becomes a dictator, enacting sweeping reforms on the social organization of the kingdom, such a thing is always violent and extreme. In the case of the dwarfs, he has it right, either he rules and ruthelessly enacts such policies or his people are doomed in the long-run. He opens Ozammar to the outside, gives the Casteless opportunities to elevate themselves out of their caste, and disbands the Assembly when they oppose him. Horribly bad for the Nobles who were the only ones with voices and votes. Good for everyone else.

Edit: Bhelen doesn't accept his place in the heirarchy, 3rd son and
such, he makes he takes control of his destiny. Maybe he loved his
father, but he did what he had to do in order to enact his plan. Not
any different than a Grey Warden.

Long live Bhelen.

Wait a minute. So based on everything your saying, Bhelen is a communist? The Dwarves elected their own Joseph Stalin in a way.

But as King I would say Military Aid for Orzammar. Push back the Darkspawn, reclaim Thaigs and if those frenchie Orlesians try to invade they're going to have to deal with Ferelden and the Dwarves.

Yep, Bhelen's ruthless enough.  He'll take our murderous canon fodder.