235 réponses à ce sujet

[AngryFrozenWater]

HYR 2.0 wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

The OP thinks that interaction is the problem. That means he/she bought the wrong game.

Oh look, AngryFrozenWater purposely interpretting something she doesn't agree with into a complete falsehood.

Tell me more of your fascinating headcanon stories about Control/Synthesis while you're at it.

In time, madam. This is not the place.

[AnsinJung]

The way the game is now, remove auto-dialogue and you simply have less conversation.  The natural next step would be to add choices.  Where they failed was finding a good balance to build upon what already worked.  As far as I'm concerned, they could keep the majority of the auto-dialogue, while putting forth the effort to have a lot more options in general.

If there is one particularly attractive aspect of auto-dialogue, it's that you would potentially limit the number of times you're given the option to contradict yourself.  I also like the longer, more natural conversations.  A lot of lines from DAO's Warden seemed longer but were more easily implemented due to the lack of voice acting for the part.  I wasn't around when DAO was new, but I don't imagine there were complaints about auto-dialogue in DAO.

On the whole, this is another frustrating example of how Mass Effect 3 failed due to a lack of artistic integrity.

Modifié par AnsinJung, 13 août 2012 - 06:40 .

[Jassu1979]

Grub Killer8016 wrote...

It is a bogus complaint. Some gamers playing ME3 are new to the series, and like to use the auto-dialogue. If you don't like it, just don't complain about it.

Who on earth starts with the third installment of a series? And who on earth prefers role-playing games without any role-playing???

Did you buy this game looking for a third-person shooter? Congratulations! you are the kind of person who's responsible for the consistent dumbing-down we can detect throughout the gaming industry!

[Jassu1979]

With auto-dialogue, the player is not engaging in conversations - he's watching people talk through predetermined conversations. In an RPG - especially one whose signature game mechanic was the fracking dialogue wheel - that's an absolute no-go.

[clarkusdarkus]

Jassu1979 wrote...

Grub Killer8016 wrote...

It is a bogus complaint. Some gamers playing ME3 are new to the series, and like to use the auto-dialogue. If you don't like it, just don't complain about it.

Who on earth starts with the third installment of a series? And who on earth prefers role-playing games without any role-playing???

Did you buy this game looking for a third-person shooter? Congratulations! you are the kind of person who's responsible for the consistent dumbing-down we can detect throughout the gaming industry!

There also responsible for micro-transactions, day 1 dlc, weapon dlc, hub world dlc, twitter gimicks, app gimmicks, IGN gimmicks, and they also made ME1/2 irrelevant.

[o Ventus]

HYR 2.0 wrote...

Problems with the old systems:

1.) Dialogue Wheel responses leading to saying the exact same thing.

This was only a problem in ME1.

2.) DW responses leading to saying the same thing with just slightly nuanced opinion (as opposed to, a contrary opinion).

Care to point out an example? Because I don't remember this happening, ever.

3.) DW reponses assuming your motivations behind a decision. ("I'm not going to let fear compromise who I am!" ugh...)

And the auto-dialogue doesn't do this?

4.) DW response otherwise not reflecting your opinion on a development.

And auto-dialogue doesn't do this?

5.) DW options not always reflecting the actual response very well.

That's why it's called a "paraphrase".

6.) Persuation system forcing you to play strictly to one morality to unlock persuation options rather than in-character.

That's not a flaw in the dialogue system itself, so invalid point.

7.) Being left with only one (persuation) dialogue response as a result of the above.

Same as above.

8.) Abundance of forced opinons (friendships, railroading) even before ME3, despite the dialogue-wheel.

Ok, you aren't even trying at this point, are you?

I will agree there should have been less of it in ME3. But complaining about its presence outright is absurd. Given some of the issues up top, it's practically necessary.

Except most of the issues you mentioned aren't actual issues.

[CronoDragoon]

inko1nsiderate wrote...

BaladasDemnevanni wrote...


Where autodialogue feels most intrusive is during sequences where characters ask Shepard how he's doing/feeling, which are perfect triggers for RPing, only for Shepard to respond on his own. Or another example: when first meeting Vega, every Shepard says "you don't have to call me that James".

I agree.   I think the biggest line that sticks out to me like this is the 'I'll sleep when I'm dead'.  All Shepards say this, but not all Shepards should.  I still love that line, but you're correct in that it cuts off some potential RPing on the part of the player.


Frankly, what is a bigger issue for me is one in all 3 games.  The paraphrasing of lines on the dialogue wheel is not always accurate.  I hate when I choose a line that I felt was reasonable, but then is delivered and makes me gasp because that is not what I want.  I sometimes remember these lines to not pick them, but I often forget because 90% of the time the paraphrasing on the dialogue wheel is accurate.

Agreed. The dialogue wheel is crap compared to previous BioWare dialogue systems or The Witcher 2. I love the internet. Mass Effect 1 and 2 fans complaining about ME3's dialogue wheels, while Mass Effect was the series that destroyed the great dialogue system found in Dragon Age Origins.

[Jassu1979]

CronoDragoon wrote...Mass Effect was the series that destroyed the great dialogue system found in Dragon Age Origins.

Dragon Age: Origins was released in 2009.
Mass Effect was released in 2007.

[LinksOcarina]

yukon fire wrote...

Baronesa wrote...


BioWare is moving away from RPG, because RPG are a niche market and do not sell as well as more popular genres like action games... (Let's not ruin this line of thinking by talking about Skyrim, ok... it would break EA's premise)

So they simply shift towards a more "popular" genre and make games that say "And so do I" rather than keep going on what set BioWare apart from other companies. When RPG games seemed to be almost dead... Baldur's Gate cme in and gave new life to the genre... and now the company that for years was synonim with RPG... is moving away from RPG.


Anyone else finds it incredibly stupid?

One word Bioware: Skyrim

Ahahaha, using Skyrim as an example is bad...since Skyrim is a bad RPG.

And stop with the "moving away from an RPG" line, its been parrotted as a truthism on these forum for a year now, and it's so laughable I can't help but smirk at the ineptitute of peoples interpretations of what an RPG is.

Here is a hint, no one has a right answer, so you are not qualified to make more conjecture. 

[Hackulator]

The fact is, a lot of the dialogue options in ME1 were fake options that didn't actually lead to different conversations.

[o Ventus]

LinksOcarina wrote...

yukon fire wrote...

Baronesa wrote...


BioWare is moving away from RPG, because RPG are a niche market and do not sell as well as more popular genres like action games... (Let's not ruin this line of thinking by talking about Skyrim, ok... it would break EA's premise)

So they simply shift towards a more "popular" genre and make games that say "And so do I" rather than keep going on what set BioWare apart from other companies. When RPG games seemed to be almost dead... Baldur's Gate cme in and gave new life to the genre... and now the company that for years was synonim with RPG... is moving away from RPG.


Anyone else finds it incredibly stupid?

One word Bioware: Skyrim

Ahahaha, using Skyrim as an example is bad...since Skyrim is a bad RPG.

And stop with the "moving away from an RPG" line, its been parrotted as a truthism on these forum for a year now, and it's so laughable I can't help but smirk at the ineptitute of peoples interpretations of what an RPG is.

Here is a hint, no one has a right answer, so you are not qualified to make more conjecture. 

No one has a right answer as to what constitutes as an RPG, but you're saying Skyrim is a bad RPG?

[Hejdun]

AFAIK there was pretty much zero auto-dialogue in ME1. I can't recall Shepard ever saying anything without you choosing an option on the wheel. Sometimes this led to trivial "choices" where you say the same thing, just with a different tone.

ME2 had some small sections of auto-dialogue, but I can't recall anyone complaining about them. They were generally filler lines to move the conversation along.

ME3's auto-dialogue was used frequently, and often it included Shepard's opinion on something. They used it to shoehorn your Shepard along the paths that Bioware desired. It totally removed player choice in some instances.

Very few (if any) people had any problem with any auto-dialogue in ME2. Used sparingly, players don't mind if it smooths out a conversation a bit so long as you still make all the choices as to what you want to say.

[RShara]

There actually isn't very much in the way of role-playing in Skyrim. You have the same dialogue options no matter who/how you play, and there's no real character development, other than leveling. So Skyrim is more of an action game than an RPG.

I can't really say there have been any recent games that I could call a good *actual* RPG. The last one was probably Jade Empire, and Neverwinter Nights.

And to the topic, tere are lots of places where autodialogue was totally against what my Shepard would have said in those circumstances.

There might have been small differences in the result of different dialogue wheel options, but they were rather critical ones--tone of voice, and phrasing make a huge difference.

"We fight or we die!"  meh
"We figh and we win!"  yay!

Modifié par RShara, 13 août 2012 - 10:06 .

[LinksOcarina]

o Ventus wrote...

LinksOcarina wrote...

yukon fire wrote...

Baronesa wrote...


BioWare is moving away from RPG, because RPG are a niche market and do not sell as well as more popular genres like action games... (Let's not ruin this line of thinking by talking about Skyrim, ok... it would break EA's premise)

So they simply shift towards a more "popular" genre and make games that say "And so do I" rather than keep going on what set BioWare apart from other companies. When RPG games seemed to be almost dead... Baldur's Gate cme in and gave new life to the genre... and now the company that for years was synonim with RPG... is moving away from RPG.


Anyone else finds it incredibly stupid?

One word Bioware: Skyrim

Ahahaha, using Skyrim as an example is bad...since Skyrim is a bad RPG.

And stop with the "moving away from an RPG" line, its been parrotted as a truthism on these forum for a year now, and it's so laughable I can't help but smirk at the ineptitute of peoples interpretations of what an RPG is.

Here is a hint, no one has a right answer, so you are not qualified to make more conjecture. 

No one has a right answer as to what constitutes as an RPG, but you're saying Skyrim is a bad RPG?

Mostly due to design and mechanics, yes. It was, quite frankly, not fun because it was so exploitable and monotnomous. Oh, and the story and sub-plot were pathetic. 

Modifié par LinksOcarina, 13 août 2012 - 10:07 .

[F4H bandicoot]

LinksOcarina wrote...

o Ventus wrote...

LinksOcarina wrote...

yukon fire wrote...

Baronesa wrote...


BioWare is moving away from RPG, because RPG are a niche market and do not sell as well as more popular genres like action games... (Let's not ruin this line of thinking by talking about Skyrim, ok... it would break EA's premise)

So they simply shift towards a more "popular" genre and make games that say "And so do I" rather than keep going on what set BioWare apart from other companies. When RPG games seemed to be almost dead... Baldur's Gate cme in and gave new life to the genre... and now the company that for years was synonim with RPG... is moving away from RPG.


Anyone else finds it incredibly stupid?

One word Bioware: Skyrim

Ahahaha, using Skyrim as an example is bad...since Skyrim is a bad RPG.

And stop with the "moving away from an RPG" line, its been parrotted as a truthism on these forum for a year now, and it's so laughable I can't help but smirk at the ineptitute of peoples interpretations of what an RPG is.

Here is a hint, no one has a right answer, so you are not qualified to make more conjecture. 

No one has a right answer as to what constitutes as an RPG, but you're saying Skyrim is a bad RPG?

Mostly due to design and mechanics, yes. It was, quite frankly, not fun because it was so exploitable and monotnomous. Oh, and the story and sub-plot were pathetic. 

But you said there was no correct answer as to what an RPG is.
Therefore you can't comment on whether a game is an RPG or not and said game is good or not

Modifié par F4H bandicoot, 13 août 2012 - 10:09 .

[LinksOcarina]

Hejdun wrote...

AFAIK there was pretty much zero auto-dialogue in ME1. I can't recall Shepard ever saying anything without you choosing an option on the wheel. Sometimes this led to trivial "choices" where you say the same thing, just with a different tone.

I am calling BS on this one. The first half of the game had tons of auto-dialogue masked by the wheel, and most of it ploy heavy, where the tone was irrelevent since the choice made did not reflect it in the voice. You, as a player, picked the "tone" based on the text in the wheel, but that tone was often inconsistant with the dialogue spoken. And this happened a lot in Mass Effect, especially the bookends of the game. 

So while you are technically right that you always used the wheel to choose an option, that doesn't mean the dialouge was automatic. In fact, the wheel is irrelevent to this discussion at all, since it just hid auto-dialogue in the first place. 

Funny thing is, no one ever mentions tone, something that we see a lot of in Mass Effect 3 when Shepard speaks. After you make a choice, the rest of the "auto-dialogue" reflects the tone of the choice, a more agressive shepard or a more gentle shepard, to put it simply.

That is your tone, right there. You may not control what Shepard would say (in the wheel) but you can control how he says it, which is usually the impetus of a connection to a character. It is, in the spirit of things, the same idea behind the choices in the Wheel. The only issue it seems people have is they can't control every word Shepard say's.

A valid complaint, but a foolish one since the game follows through to keep consistancy intact via tone over choice of words. This is why the neutral option was not available anymore: for plot reasons, it's impossible to be neutral, and for the dialouge, it had to be obvious based on your choice of dialogue. 

[LinksOcarina]

F4H bandicoot wrote...

LinksOcarina wrote...

o Ventus wrote...

LinksOcarina wrote...

yukon fire wrote...

Baronesa wrote...


BioWare is moving away from RPG, because RPG are a niche market and do not sell as well as more popular genres like action games... (Let's not ruin this line of thinking by talking about Skyrim, ok... it would break EA's premise)

So they simply shift towards a more "popular" genre and make games that say "And so do I" rather than keep going on what set BioWare apart from other companies. When RPG games seemed to be almost dead... Baldur's Gate cme in and gave new life to the genre... and now the company that for years was synonim with RPG... is moving away from RPG.


Anyone else finds it incredibly stupid?

One word Bioware: Skyrim

Ahahaha, using Skyrim as an example is bad...since Skyrim is a bad RPG.

And stop with the "moving away from an RPG" line, its been parrotted as a truthism on these forum for a year now, and it's so laughable I can't help but smirk at the ineptitute of peoples interpretations of what an RPG is.

Here is a hint, no one has a right answer, so you are not qualified to make more conjecture. 

No one has a right answer as to what constitutes as an RPG, but you're saying Skyrim is a bad RPG?

Mostly due to design and mechanics, yes. It was, quite frankly, not fun because it was so exploitable and monotnomous. Oh, and the story and sub-plot were pathetic. 

But you said there was no correct answer as to what an RPG is.
Therefore you can't comment on whether a game is an RPG or not and said game is good or not

I never said Skyrim wasn't an RPG.

I am just saying it's a bad game. 

And yeah, I can. 

[AresKeith]

Skyrim is not a bad game

[Pitznik]

AresKeith wrote...

Skyrim is not a bad game

It is a very succesful game. It is also a very good game, if you like sandbox RPGs.

[His Name was HYR!!]

[quote]o Ventus wrote...

[quote]HYR 2.0 wrote...

Problems with the old systems:

1.) Dialogue Wheel responses leading to saying the exact same thing.[/quote]

This was only a problem in ME1.[/quote]

"We're in this fight together!"



[quote]

[quote]2.) DW responses leading to saying the same thing with just slightly nuanced opinion (as opposed to, a contrary opinion).[/quote]Care to point out an example? Because I don't remember this happening, ever.[/quote]

Tali explaining geth rebellion in Morning War, ME1.

P: you deserved it.
N: they defended themselves!
R: what did you expect?

How about, "That sounds horrible. Seeing as these geth are willingly helping the Reapers commit genocide of all organics, you were probably right to want to take action against them."


[quote]

[quote]3.) DW reponses assuming your motivations behind a decision. ("I'm not going to let fear compromise who I am!" ugh...)[/quote]And the auto-dialogue doesn't do this?[/quote]

Compared to selected dialogue it's a push. I've also said in the OP that there is too much autodialogue and it should be cut down, though, so this would be it.



[quote]
[quote]4.) DW response otherwise not reflecting your opinion on a development.[/quote]And auto-dialogue doesn't do this?[/quote]

Given their affinity for railroading us, it would be nice to tell us why our character is doing something the game makes them do without choice (autodialogue comes in), rather than have us say things and build up our character only to see their actions not fit with what they do in the game.

[quote]
[quote]5.) DW options not always reflecting the actual response very well.[/quote]That's why it's called a "paraphrase".[/quote]

It's pretty poor paraphrasing when "You know the Illusive Man?" comes out to "You're well informed!"


[quote]
[quote]6.) Persuation system forcing you to play strictly to one morality to unlock persuation options rather than in-character.[/quote]That's not a flaw in the dialogue system itself, so invalid point.

[quote]7.) Being left with only one (persuation) dialogue response as a result of the above.[/quote]Same as above.[/quote]

Not really. It just goes to show that the argument made against AD for taking player control of the character away is a little strange when one installment basically limits us to only two types of characters (if you don't want to get burned by lack of persuation ability).


[quote]
[quote]8.) Abundance of forced opinons (friendships, railroading) even before ME3, despite the dialogue-wheel.[/quote]Ok, you aren't even trying at this point, are you?[/quote]

Are you?

Then explain to me why ME2's vastly superior choice makes every Shepard BFFs with Liara, including those that treat her like scum in ME1. Better yet, feeling sympathy for Tali on her LM, when the game actually accounted for how you treated her in ME1 (it changes her responses to you on Freedom's Progress).

[o Ventus]

HYR 2.0 wrote...

"We're in this fight together!"

You're right, although I fail to see how that strengthens your point. If the dialogue wheel was shrunk to accomodate for more varied dialogue, but the dialogue isn't varied at all, then what was the point?

Tali explaining geth rebellion in Morning War, ME1.

P: you deserved it.
N: they defended themselves!
R: what did you expect?

Actually listen to that dialogue. It isn't just slightly nuanced.

How about, "That sounds horrible. Seeing as these geth are willingly helping the Reapers commit genocide of all organics, you were probably right to want to take action against them."

Really? Then why am I allowed to call the quarians out for starting a war?

Compared to selected dialogue it's a push. I've also said in the OP that there is too much autodialogue and it should be cut down, though, so this would be it.

Then it's not a fault of the dialogue wheel. It's jsut you wanting to fill space in your post and make it seem more informed than it really is.

Given their affinity for railroading us, it would be nice to tell us why our character is doing something the game makes them do without choice (autodialogue comes in), rather than have us say things and build up our character only to see their actions not fit with what they do in the game.

9/10 times, this still doesn't happen. See my above post.

It's pretty poor paraphrasing when "You know the Illusive Man?" comes out to "You're well informed!"

If you take the line in context (See: not as an idiot), it's clear how it was meant to be received. It's not a leap of logic or interpretive thinking by any means.

Not really. It just goes to show that the argument made against AD for taking player control of the character away is a little strange when one installment basically limits us to only two types of characters (if you don't want to get burned by lack of persuation ability).

And having 2 options is better than having no options. What's your point?

Then explain to me why ME2's vastly superior choice makes every Shepard BFFs with Liara, including those that treat her like scum in ME1. Better yet, feeling sympathy for Tali on her LM, when the game actually accounted for how you treated her in ME1 (it changes her responses to you on Freedom's Progress).

In regards to Liara, I call writer favoritism. In LotSB, a LOT of Shepard's dialogue was automated.

In regards to Tali, you actually can scold her at points during her loyalty mission. More than once, I think.

[LinksOcarina]

Pitznik wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

Skyrim is not a bad game

It is a very succesful game. It is also a very good game, if you like sandbox RPGs.

I admit, I like Skyrim for what it is too, a lot more than I lead on here. 

But I hate that it is used as a benchmark,  and frankly over time the game has worn down to a point where it lacks any sort of substance to it, other than unecessary MMO-styled grinding, which I tend to hate too.

I won't deny it's successful, but I would point out that its not as good as others say. 

[hoodaticus]

All three parts of the ME series correctly guessed what I would want to say and my reasoning for it... until ME3. They really dropped the ball in ME3 as far as guessing what we're thinking is concerned.

[hoodaticus]

LinksOcarina wrote...

Pitznik wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

Skyrim is not a bad game

It is a very succesful game. It is also a very good game, if you like sandbox RPGs.

I admit, I like Skyrim for what it is too, a lot more than I lead on here. 

But I hate that it is used as a benchmark,  and frankly over time the game has worn down to a point where it lacks any sort of substance to it, other than unecessary MMO-styled grinding, which I tend to hate too.

I won't deny it's successful, but I would point out that its not as good as others say. 

Skyrim finally confirmed my suspicions about the vacuousness of the BEthesda games I've been playing now for almost a decade.  The best moments in all of Bethesda gaming are weaker than the worst Mass Effect has to offer.

[o Ventus]

hoodaticus wrote...

LinksOcarina wrote...

Pitznik wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

Skyrim is not a bad game

It is a very succesful game. It is also a very good game, if you like sandbox RPGs.

I admit, I like Skyrim for what it is too, a lot more than I lead on here. 

But I hate that it is used as a benchmark,  and frankly over time the game has worn down to a point where it lacks any sort of substance to it, other than unecessary MMO-styled grinding, which I tend to hate too.

I won't deny it's successful, but I would point out that its not as good as others say. 

Skyrim finally confirmed my suspicions about the vacuousness of the BEthesda games I've been playing now for almost a decade.  The best moments in all of Bethesda gaming are weaker than the worst Mass Effect has to offer.

Only because Skyrim (Indeed, Bethesda RPG's in general) and ME are so radically different in nature that comparisons are redundant.

Gears of War and Halo can't really be compared, even though they are both Shooters.

Modifié par o Ventus, 13 août 2012 - 11:42 .