20 réponses à ce sujet

[Wulfram]

Most of the other significant nobles were there, and were coming from farther away than Redcliffe.

Was there a reason he couldn't mobilise his forces on time?  Or was he not summoned to battle?  If Redcliffe wasn't summoned, why was it excluded, when Amaranthine, Highever, Gwaren and Denerim were all called upon?

[Fiacre]

Well, Duncan does say that Eamon offered to come as soon as he could, but Cailan brushes him off and says that Eamon only wants in on the glory. And shortly later we learn that Eamon is already sick and Isolde sent the knights away to look for the ashes.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

It then turns out that Eamon is trying to get Cailan to set Anora aside, which from the state of the letter Eamon sent suggesting it, is an idea Cailan doesn't really like much. That might be part of it as well.

Then there's the suggestion that Cailan knew this was a suicide mission and did it anyway, which would explain why his maternal uncle was barred from taking part at the cost of raising a ton more questions...

[Ferretinabun]

DA is generally quite good about not having too many plot holes, but this one kinda ties me in knots.

Someone wasn't really paying attention to the timeline re. Arl Eamon. Somehow, between your origin story and Lothering, Jowan escaped the Circle Tower, was captured by Templars, taken to Denerim, met with Loghain who contracted him to poison Arl Eamon (before Loghain left Denerim for Ostagar AND BEAT YOU THERE!!), and had Isolde send out knights on a quest they've been fruitlessly doing for quite some time.

In short I suspect the answer to your question is that he was supposed to have been waylaid by having been poisoned, but the timeline is screwy for him so it's best not to think about it too much.

Modifié par Ferretinabun, 13 août 2012 - 09:15 .

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

I believe Gaider's answer to that one was that Duncan took his sweet time getting to Ostagar. (Though he phrased it more gently than that.)

And yes, I think the poison probably would have been introduced into his system into that point. The point of the poison was to keep Eamon sedated until the Landsmeet was over so that he couldn't interfere, and it would look weird if he was completely helpless all of a sudden. So Jowan gives him controlled doses until he's too sick to go to the Landsmeet, and he stays in that state until the vote Loghain's trying to rig is over.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Hanz54321 wrote...

I'm suprised by you, Wulfram. Why would you look to start a conversation that's long been over discussed and all the veteran players have made up their minds? If you were a new player I'd understand . . . but you're not. So why ask this?

Well, let's be fair: there's way too many posts on here to keep track of them all!

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 14 août 2012 - 04:50 .

[Wulfram]

Hanz54321 wrote...

Only one poster (Fiacre) has a join date recent enough to not KNOW the answer to this question.

I'm suprised by you, Wulfram. Why would you look to start a conversation that's long been over discussed and all the veteran players have made up their minds? If you were a new player I'd understand . . . but you're not. So why ask this?

Because I couldn't recall this specifically being discussed (though of course basically everything has been) and it was just bugging me then.

And hey, it's a forum for discussing DA:O.  Not sure what the harm is to toss something out there for anyone who felt like talking about it.

Modifié par Wulfram, 14 août 2012 - 11:32 .

[jillabender]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote…

Then there's the suggestion that Cailan knew this was a suicide mission and did it anyway, which would explain why his maternal uncle was barred from taking part at the cost of raising a ton more questions...

Thank you! That suggestion always confused me too, so I'm glad it's not just me!

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

jillabender wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote…

Then there's the suggestion that Cailan knew this was a suicide mission and did it anyway, which would explain why his maternal uncle was barred from taking part at the cost of raising a ton more questions...

Thank you! That suggestion always confused me too, so I'm glad it's not just me!

You're welcome. 

[Arthur Cousland]

I'd have to question Cailan's logic for dragging Duncan, Loghain and the others into this battle if he knew it would get everyone killed.

The initial battles went easily, and I think that they were caught off-guard by the numbers that showed up for the final battle. Neither Cailan or Loghain believed that a blight was actually happening. Rather than run away, Cailan rushed into battle, while Loghain retreated.

Elric's explanation of things doesn't make a whole lot of sense, as the over-confident Cailan wouldn't run off to hand over the key to his chest upon seeing the vast army of darkspawn upon them.  Also, how did the Warden fight alongside Elric when they were in the Tower of Ishal and not in the battle?  It was also nice of Elric to draw up a map for the Warden as they were minutes from bleeding to death.

Modifié par Arthur Cousland, 18 août 2012 - 11:27 .

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

It sounds to me like Elric was delirious from pain and blood-loss.

As for Cailan's logic in killing himself like that, I also remember a thread called "Cailan's Foresight?" where this came up. One of the users mentioned that Cailan might have been knowingly sacrificing himself, Loghain, and the Wardens to gain time for Ferelden to unite. I mentioned that sacrificing the king of the entire country and the duke of half of it in order to buy time for it to unite was a stupid move, and that not telling anybody who their supposed to unite behind was a even stupider one.

[robertthebard]

"I don't even think this is a true Blight. There are plenty of darkspawn on the field..."

Pretty much says it all. They don't know how big the army is, and they believe their forces are sufficient to defeat them yet again. While I don't recall if there was ever a satisfactory resolution, Loghain's tactic might well have broken the horde yet again, had he followed through with it, instead of deciding that Orlais was a bigger threat than the Darkspawn. I've also been gone long enough that if an official answer to whether Loghain deliberately sealed off Ishal before the battle to make sure there was a "back door" was ever shot down.

In short, all of those assumptions aside, Cailan just didn't think they needed any more troops, based on the strategy presented, and the presumed numbers of both armies.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

robertthebard wrote...

"I don't even think this is a true Blight. There are plenty of darkspawn on the field..."

While I don't recall if there was ever a satisfactory resolution, Loghain's tactic might well have broken the horde yet again, had he followed through with it, instead of deciding that Orlais was a bigger threat than the Darkspawn.

He didn't decide they were a bigger threat than the darkspawn. He decided that they were a simultaneous threat, to be handled after the darkspawn were taken down. He doesn't cite the Orlesians to the Bannorn when he's trying to replace the army lost, does he?

I've also been gone long enough that if an official answer to whether Loghain deliberately sealed off Ishal before the battle to make sure there was a "back door" was ever shot down.

Yes, it has. Loghain was planning to scuttle the beacon if the battle couldn't be won, so that it looked like that was why he didn't charge, but didn't go through with setting it up. (Possibly because Cailan put a pair of Wardens in the Tower, and the Wardens don't answer to Loghain.) And the darkspawn in the Tower weren't part of his plan either way.

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 18 août 2012 - 05:57 .

[robertthebard]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

robertthebard wrote...

"I don't even think this is a true Blight. There are plenty of darkspawn on the field..."

While I don't recall if there was ever a satisfactory resolution, Loghain's tactic might well have broken the horde yet again, had he followed through with it, instead of deciding that Orlais was a bigger threat than the Darkspawn.

He didn't decide they were a bigger threat than the darkspawn. He decided that they were a simultaneous threat, to be handled after the darkspawn were taken down. He doesn't cite the Orlesians to the Bannorn when he's trying to replace the army lost, does he?

I've also been gone long enough that if an official answer to whether Loghain deliberately sealed off Ishal before the battle to make sure there was a "back door" was ever shot down.

Yes, it has. Loghain was planning to scuttle the beacon if the battle couldn't be won, so that it looked like that was why he didn't charge, but didn't go through with setting it up. (Possibly because Cailan put a pair of Wardens in the Tower, and the Wardens don't answer to Loghain.) And the darkspawn in the Tower weren't part of his plan either way.

He really can't, because that would paint him out to be what it turns out he was, a traitor.  Even if this is undone by his tirade at the Landsmeet.  He had, as you point out about Ishal, already laid the groundwork to pull out, which means that he was planning to do just that, regardless of whether he thought either was a greater threat.  Too bad, really, I was always curious to see how that would have played out.

Regarding the other, that does make sense, in light of what happens, thx for the heads up.

[Wulfram]

robertthebard wrote...

In short, all of those assumptions aside, Cailan just didn't think they needed any more troops, based on the strategy presented, and the presumed numbers of both armies.

Except this doesn't explain why he chose not to summon Redcliffe when he summoned virtually all the other high-ranking nobles to the battle, despite them being from further away.

[jillabender]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote…

As for Cailan's logic in killing himself like that, I also remember a thread called "Cailan's Foresight?" where this came up. One of the users mentioned that Cailan might have been knowingly sacrificing himself, Loghain, and the Wardens to gain time for Ferelden to unite. I mentioned that sacrificing the king of the entire country and the duke of half of it in order to buy time for it to unite was a stupid move, and that not telling anybody who their supposed to unite behind was a even stupider one.

My thoughts exactly!

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote…

It sounds to me like Elric was delirious from pain and blood-loss.

I'm going to go with that theory.

Wulfram wrote…

Except this doesn't explain why he chose not to summon Redcliffe when he summoned virtually all the other high-ranking nobles to the battle, despite them being from further away.

I'm not sure the game gives much of an explanation beyond Cailan being overconfident, and resentful of Eamon's trying to convince him to divorce Anora.

Modifié par jillabender, 19 août 2012 - 06:01 .

[BevH]

To be fair, Cailan does suggest to Loghain at the meeting the warden attends, that perhaps they should wait for the Orlesian forces to arrive. However, it still doesn't really explain why he hadn't summoned Eamon, or suggest, at that point, that they should wait for Eamon and then attack. Cailan must have realized, however, that there was a good possibility that he would die in this battle since he suggested that Alistair be one of the ones to light the beacon.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

And to be fair, I think I can understand why Loghain is leery at the thought of letting super-disciplined troops from a foreign nation into the country he saved from that foreign nation (and more to the point that same military order) thirty years ago.

Also, even though I agree that was probably Cailan's plan... why the hell didn't he make it clear to everyone else!?

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 19 août 2012 - 04:47 .

[robertthebard]

Wulfram wrote...

robertthebard wrote...

In short, all of those assumptions aside, Cailan just didn't think they needed any more troops, based on the strategy presented, and the presumed numbers of both armies.

Except this doesn't explain why he chose not to summon Redcliffe when he summoned virtually all the other high-ranking nobles to the battle, despite them being from further away.

I've been thinking about this, and something about it was bothering me, I just couldn't put my finger on it.  He doesn't have them.  He expected Highever to show up, and while the troops certainly show up, the Teryn doesn't, since he's dead.  Howe also isn't there, since he's busy moving in to his new castle.  When you get to Lothering, the townsfolk there will tell you that their bann rode north with Loghain, after the battle.  Loghain was building his power base before he ever got back to Denerim, picking up who he could along the way.