252 réponses à ce sujet

[Ranger Jack Walker]

No one deserves to die. If you find the loss of EDI and the Geth to be an acceptable sacrifice, then fine. I don't agree but I'll let it be.

However, if you chose Destroy because EDI and the Geth die, then frankly you're proving the Catalyst right.

[Ticonderoga117]

BlueSandBristow wrote...
Okay fine. Machines still can't feel pain and fear like organics. This makes them ruthless and deadly.

Yes they can, it's just in a different form.

"Hey, my arm can no longer function. This sucks." - Pain
"Hey, I really really want to keep existing, and these organics are shooting at me. I should flee." - Fear

[Demon560]

so your saying that every organic feels compassion and is an upstanding person, and that synthetics can't be as human as any organic, sounds ignorant.

Modifié par Demon560, 13 août 2012 - 06:03 .

[Bill Casey]

EDI does feel fear on Earth...

[ZombieGambit]

No, she didn't deserve it, which is why it's a counterpoint to Destroy. Its unfairness is supposed to make you think, give you a moment of pause, maybe even change your mind.

Oh, well. I guess that's what she gets for being built with Reaper code/components.

[BlueSandBristow]

Fear is driven by hormones and adrenaline. It is something unique to organics. True fear can't be simulated.

I agree, it's her fault for being full of Reaper tech.

Modifié par BlueSandBristow, 13 août 2012 - 06:07 .

[Balek-Vriege]

LucasShark wrote...

Balek-Vriege wrote...

LucasShark wrote...

Balek-Vriege wrote...

LucasShark wrote...

BlueSandBristow wrote...

LucasShark wrote...

BlueSandBristow wrote...

Machines don't think like us. They use logic, and when they see our flaws, they will think we are dangerous. Machines don't care about civilians and children. They don't feel emotion. That makes EDI more dangerous than any organic. She can't feel, and she can keep killing without remorse. Javik makes this very clear.

Wish you would...

ANd oh yes: Javik is such an expert on the psycology of machines and totally unbiased... I mean he only fought a war with the prothean's own machines so he's totally unbiased toward that subject right?

Bias or no bias, his reasoning is very deep and true, and has not been proved wrong.

- Peace with geth - proven wrong right there
- Edi's willingness to sacrafice to save Joker, a notably flawed human - demonstrated wrong again
- A bias toward a conclusion precludes that the resulting conclusion cannot be "deep" as you put it, and an emotional, not a logical term - three strikes, farewell.

Oversimplification. Both Javik and the Catalyst would rebut your first two points by asking you "Yes, but for how long?" The issue is that the peace never lasts and is a brief, temporary exception to the rule. The Catalyst should know since it was his job to broker peace between AIs and Organics for who knows how long.

It would be like a Casino owner (The Catalyst) who's seen countless gambles and the money to prove it saying:

"In the end, the house always wins"

Then some gambling noob coming along (Shepard) replying:

"You're totally wrong, I just gambled for my first time and won!!! The house doesn't always win meaning gambling is a good investment for me!"

The Casino owner laugh then says:

An appeal to probability is not a logical argument in this instance: as you can state the same for virtually any set of circumstances concievable which isn't self-contradictory.

You can for instance make a case for some day it being possible for pigs to fly, pigs evolve afterall, genetic engineering, etc, that is a quantifiable possibility, and if you wait long enough yes "for how long" will work here too.

You can't use "for how long" as a totalitarian game-ender as it is uncertain and undemonstratable, just as I can say "for how long" will "when pigs fly" be a legitimat eexpression?

An example of self-contradiction would be something like "a table made of insomnia", a statement which makes no sense.

What the Catalyst (moreso than Javik, who's opinions are based off Prothean/Organic prejudice towards AIs) is getting at is:

a)  The possibility of Synthetics wiping out Organics is high based on it's own experiences and the events which followed during the 37+ million years its Reaped.
  That the result could definitely be the Galactic extinction and genocidal eradication of all organic life for the rest of time by an organic race.  Something there is no coming back from.

I use the gambling analogy because its very close and probably.

a)  The extreme likelyhood is that you will lose all the money you bet in a Casino.  no matter how many exceptions there are to the rule, the Casino always makes a net profit off the floor.  That's essentially proven everyday because Casino's are big business, always turning a profit if people walk in the door.
  The result of this can be somone winning a jackpot or a high stakes card game, only to lose not only their winnings, but everything they own to the Casino.  "The house always wins."

The evolution example you use is not the same as above, because it suggests the likely hood of AI/Organic confrontation is small when indeed its not.  The fact is if AIs don't start it Organics would out of fear, greed, protectionism etc.

Time doesn't matter to the Catalyst, only the probability and eventuality of something which would make its original purpose/programming redundant.  Governing organic/synthetics relations wouldn't make sense if organic life and promordial goo ceased to exist would it?  Although Reaping is a totally currupt version of it's original purpose "morally,"  the Catalyst is still logically carrying out its orginal function (via controlled culling of advanced races) the only way it thinks it can.  That's of course until Shepard comes along and slaps a big Crubible on the Citadel.

Swing and a miss... missed the point entirely.

Then explain simpler because i'm pretty tired.  (Just kidding, I think I get what you're saying now after rereading but I could be wrong.) 

Your point (I think) suggests that based off our experiences in ME that somehow the Catalyst and/or Javik are wrong in their beliefs.  That because EDI and others can reach sentience or that the Geth can reach peace with Quarians, that means AIs aren't a threat or will someday think like us.  The fact is in the ME universe the pigs have already flown if you will.  Shepard's picture of Synthetics is only a piece of the puzzle.  We're not waiting to see if pigs will evolve to fly.  They have countless times and they're scary little creatures once they do destined to destroy mankind...

So when Javik and/or the Catalyst ask "For how long?"  They're asking that not because they don't know, but because they're trying to convey the point that it has happened before and most likely will happen again.  Using two examples of AI/Organic relations which were rocky and included rebellion, confrontation and organics getting slaughtered before coming to a "positive conclusion," is ignorant of what came before.

That's why the Casino analogy works.  Shepard in the ME universe is the noob gambler basing his opinion of gambling off one or two lucky experiences, his only experiences, which were wins.  The Casino owner (Catalyst/Javik) is basing his opinion on past experience(s) that prove the opposite is more likey.  The fact that at the end of the day, "the house always wins," or "at the end of the day organics will never be able to coexist with synthetics."

Modifié par Balek-Vriege, 13 août 2012 - 06:15 .

[Demon560]

so fear of something different has never created a problem for anyone.

[SeptimusMagistos]

BlueSandBristow wrote...

Hackulator wrote...

Why does a machine made of meat have inherent value greater than one made of metal?

Organics have culture, emotions, civilians, and children. We can feel pain and fear. Machines are ruthless and cold.

The machine in the Citadel felt fear. The geth felt fear. Legion felt shame. EDI felt love.

The geth have a culture. The geth have civilians, even.

AIs are people just like you and me, deserving of the same rights and beholden to the same responsibilities.

[Omanisat]

BlueSandBristow wrote...

Fear is driven by hormones and adrenaline. It is something unique to organics. True fear can't be simulated.

I agree, it's her fault for being full of Reaper tech.

All fear is simulated, whether in organics or synthetics. Hormones and  adrenaline
are now different than self-preservation routines or code. Only difference is the OS the signals are being processed by.

And how is it her fault for having reaper tech built into her? Did you ask to get a spleen, or gallbladder? 

[BlueSandBristow]

Javik is proven right by the Reapers, the Metacon War, the Zhatil, and almost every AI. Just because EDI hasn't rebeled yet doesn't mean she won't. She have no reason to not betray us, especially after she eventually see our flaws.

Modifié par BlueSandBristow, 13 août 2012 - 06:21 .

[Balek-Vriege]

SeptimusMagistos wrote...

BlueSandBristow wrote...

Hackulator wrote...

Why does a machine made of meat have inherent value greater than one made of metal?

Organics have culture, emotions, civilians, and children. We can feel pain and fear. Machines are ruthless and cold.

The machine in the Citadel felt fear. The geth felt fear. Legion felt shame. EDI felt love.

The geth have a culture. The geth have civilians, even.

AIs are people just like you and me, deserving of the same rights and beholden to the same responsibilities.

Which is why I like Synthesis better than Destroy personally.

In the ME universe AIs definitely become true sentients, but on another level and they also don't fully understand organics and vice versa, leading to confrontation and organics losing.  Have to fix two birds with one stone.

[LucasShark]

BlueSandBristow wrote...

RadicalDisconnect wrote...

BlueSandBristow wrote...

RadicalDisconnect wrote...

Oh really? Then why did EDI chose a Christian biblical metaphor to name Legion? Oh, and what about this line if you take her on Sur'Kesh?

EDI: "I find that analyzing topographical data of a location isn't the same as seeing it in person. But there's also regret, knowing that as we speak Reapers are destroying other worlds just as beautiful."

Kinda blows your statement out of the water, doesn't it?

Where does she say this? For all I know, you're lying.

Don't believe me? Just youtube Legion's activation in ME2.

And for Sur'Kesh, I haven't seen that video before and I don't have a PVR to record it. But just take EDI and hit one of the examine prompts on the edge facing the valley.

Okay fine. Machines still can't feel pain and fear like organics. This makes them ruthless and deadly.

Nor can a lobotomy victim, do they cease to have rights?

[Hackulator]

BlueSandBristow wrote...

Hackulator wrote...

Why does a machine made of meat have inherent value greater than one made of metal?

Organics have culture, emotions, civilians, and children. We can feel pain and fear. Machines are ruthless and cold.

Are you trolling? You're just making these things up. You cannot make definitive statements about things that do not even exist yet.

[BlueSandBristow]

Hackulator wrote...

BlueSandBristow wrote...

Hackulator wrote...

Why does a machine made of meat have inherent value greater than one made of metal?

Organics have culture, emotions, civilians, and children. We can feel pain and fear. Machines are ruthless and cold.

Are you trolling? You're just making these things up. You cannot make definitive statements about things that do not even exist yet.

Look at the Geth. Do they have any civilians or children? Are their emotions real or simulated?

Modifié par BlueSandBristow, 13 août 2012 - 06:22 .

[LucasShark]

BlueSandBristow wrote...

Fear is driven by hormones and adrenaline. It is something unique to organics.

So completely reactionary transmission of chemicals is inherantly superior to purely reactionary transmission of electrons?

Do you know how stupid that sounds?

[Balek-Vriege]

Hackulator wrote...

BlueSandBristow wrote...

Hackulator wrote...

Why does a machine made of meat have inherent value greater than one made of metal?

Organics have culture, emotions, civilians, and children. We can feel pain and fear. Machines are ruthless and cold.

Are you trolling? You're just making these things up. You cannot make definitive statements about things that do not even exist yet.

I wouldn't call it trolling but you're right.  The only definitive statements we can make are things that are ingame.  The Reapers are ruthless and cold, but the true Geth and EDI are not.

Modifié par Balek-Vriege, 13 août 2012 - 06:24 .

[LucasShark]

BlueSandBristow wrote...

Hackulator wrote...

BlueSandBristow wrote...

Hackulator wrote...

Why does a machine made of meat have inherent value greater than one made of metal?

Organics have culture, emotions, civilians, and children. We can feel pain and fear. Machines are ruthless and cold.

Are you trolling? You're just making these things up. You cannot make definitive statements about things that do not even exist yet.

Look at the Geth. Do they have any civilians or children? Are their emotions real or simulated?

"they have no culture"
BULL ****!
Legion had views on self-determination and religious belief, that is pretty cultural to me.

[Hackulator]

BlueSandBristow wrote...

Hackulator wrote...

BlueSandBristow wrote...

Hackulator wrote...

Why does a machine made of meat have inherent value greater than one made of metal?

Organics have culture, emotions, civilians, and children. We can feel pain and fear. Machines are ruthless and cold.

Are you trolling? You're just making these things up. You cannot make definitive statements about things that do not even exist yet.

Look at the Geth. Do they have any civilians or children? Are their emotions real or simulated?

Do you know that they do not have children? Are you certain that Geth never make more Geth? Are YOUR emotions real or simulated? How do I know? A person's biology is programmed with certain reactions, does that mean our emaotions aren't real? As for civilians, how do you know they do not have "civilians", whatever that means? 

You're just making statements as though they are true without any sort of backing.

[His Name was HYR!!]

SeptimusMagistos wrote...

The machine in the Citadel felt fear. The geth felt fear. Legion felt shame. EDI felt love.

The geth have a culture. The geth have civilians, even.

AIs are people just like you and me, deserving of the same rights and beholden to the same responsibilities.

None of the emotions they experience are at all complex. It's rudimentary emotion, and even then, they've demonstrated that they do not understand the concept of those emotions they feel.

Part of their programming is to simulate emotional responses to things. But that's where their emotions start and end. Programming.

Let me deduce Legion's shame into logic: I am part-Reaper, that is not good.

When it comes down to it, synthetics are far from being like you and me. Even Legion says otherwise on his mission.

[Omanisat]

BlueSandBristow wrote...

Javik is proven right by the Reapers, the Metacon War, the Zhatil, and almost every AI. Just because EDI hasn't rebeled yet doesn't mean she won't. She have no reason to not betray us, especially after she eventually see our flaws.

The Reapers aren't anywhere near similar to EDI/Geth, as much organic as inorganic.
The Protheans started the Metacon war.
The Zhatil are organics inside synthetic exoskeletons. They were only a threat when the Reapers started ****ing with them, enslaving and utillizing their machine parts.

[BlueSandBristow]

Hackulator wrote...

BlueSandBristow wrote...

Hackulator wrote...

BlueSandBristow wrote...

Hackulator wrote...

Why does a machine made of meat have inherent value greater than one made of metal?

Organics have culture, emotions, civilians, and children. We can feel pain and fear. Machines are ruthless and cold.

Are you trolling? You're just making these things up. You cannot make definitive statements about things that do not even exist yet.

Look at the Geth. Do they have any civilians or children? Are their emotions real or simulated?

Do you know that they do not have children? Are you certain that Geth never make more Geth? Are YOUR emotions real or simulated? How do I know? A person's biology is programmed with certain reactions, does that mean our emaotions aren't real? As for civilians, how do you know they do not have "civilians", whatever that means? 

You're just making statements as though they are true without any sort of backing.

Compare to Quarians. They have innocent civilians and children and civilian ships. Creating new software isn't like birth. I can make many copies of a word file and delete them. I can't put machine over innocent children.

[Demon560]

BlueSandBristow wrote...

Hackulator wrote...

BlueSandBristow wrote...

Hackulator wrote...

Why does a machine made of meat have inherent value greater than one made of metal?

Organics have culture, emotions, civilians, and children. We can feel pain and fear. Machines are ruthless and cold.

Are you trolling? You're just making these things up. You cannot make definitive statements about things that do not even exist yet.

Look at the Geth. Do they have any civilians or children? Are their emotions real or simulated?

So them not wanting to die was just a way to stick it to their creators and not a sign of fear, oh and lets not forget the heretics worshipping a reaper shrine in Mass effect 1 on Feros, they were just sleeping, it's obvious your speaking from where the lights don't shine.

[LucasShark]

Balek-Vriege wrote...

Then explain simpler because i'm pretty tired.  (Just kidding, I think I get what you're saying now after rereading but I could be wrong.) 

Your point (I think) suggests that based off our experiences in ME that somehow the Catalyst and/or Javik are wrong in their beliefs.  That because EDI and others can reach sentience or that the Geth can reach peace with Quarians, that means AIs aren't a threat or will someday think like us.  The fact is in the ME universe the pigs have already flown if you will.  Shepard's picture of Synthetics is only a piece of the puzzle.  We're not waiting to see if pigs will evolve to fly.  They have countless times and they're scary little creatures once they do destined to destroy mankind...

So when Javik and/or the Catalyst ask "For how long?"  They're asking that not because they don't know, but because they're trying to convey the point that it has happened before and most likely will happen again.  Using two examples of AI/Organic relations which were rocky and included rebellion, confrontation and organics getting slaughtered before coming to a "positive conclusion," is ignorant of what came before.

That's why the Casino analogy works.  Shepard in the ME universe is the noob gambler basing his opinion of gambling off one or two lucky experiences, his only experiences, which were wins.  The Casino owner (Catalyst/Javik) is basing his opinion on past experience(s) that prove the opposite is more likey.  The fact that at the end of the day, "the house always wins," or "at the end of the day organics will never be able to coexist with synthetics."

No, the problem is: all are using a logical falicy.  They are using an appeal to probability as though it were a demonstrated fact, which it is not.

[Bill Casey]

BlueSandBristow wrote...

She have no reason to not betray us, especially after she eventually see our flaws.

She has already seen value in our flaws...
She likes Joker piloting her because "when two AIs fight, the one with superior hardware will always win. Human error defies predictive models."

Modifié par Bill Casey, 13 août 2012 - 06:31 .