252 réponses à ce sujet

[LucasShark]

BlueSandBristow wrote...

Hackulator wrote...

BlueSandBristow wrote...

Hackulator wrote...

BlueSandBristow wrote...

Hackulator wrote...

Why does a machine made of meat have inherent value greater than one made of metal?

Organics have culture, emotions, civilians, and children. We can feel pain and fear. Machines are ruthless and cold.

Are you trolling? You're just making these things up. You cannot make definitive statements about things that do not even exist yet.

Look at the Geth. Do they have any civilians or children? Are their emotions real or simulated?

Do you know that they do not have children? Are you certain that Geth never make more Geth? Are YOUR emotions real or simulated? How do I know? A person's biology is programmed with certain reactions, does that mean our emaotions aren't real? As for civilians, how do you know they do not have "civilians", whatever that means? 

You're just making statements as though they are true without any sort of backing.

Compare to Quarians. They have innocent civilians and children and civilian ships. Creating new software isn't like birth. I can make many copies of a word file and delete them. I can't put machine over innocent children.

Files aren't sentient, geth are, as is Edi, there is a huge difference.

And how are Geth run times which did not participate in any Quarian slaughter at all culpable for the actions of their bretheren?  That's like saying "hitler was German, therefore all German people are deserving of death"

[DirtyPhoenix]

... The Geth have civilians too. Did you not play the Geth consensus mission?

I'd rather say the Mass Effect universe shows us the opposite. That organics are the agressors on synthetics.

Modifié par pirate1802, 13 août 2012 - 06:32 .

[LucasShark]

pirate1802 wrote...

... The Geth have civilians too. Did you not play the Geth consensus mission?

I'm betting he did not as he seems to have no knowledge of anything to do with them, nor any dialogue involving them besides the Quarians saying "geth is ebil!" over and over again.

[Hackulator]

BlueSandBristow wrote...

Hackulator wrote...

BlueSandBristow wrote...

Hackulator wrote...

BlueSandBristow wrote...

Hackulator wrote...

Why does a machine made of meat have inherent value greater than one made of metal?

Organics have culture, emotions, civilians, and children. We can feel pain and fear. Machines are ruthless and cold.

Are you trolling? You're just making these things up. You cannot make definitive statements about things that do not even exist yet.

Look at the Geth. Do they have any civilians or children? Are their emotions real or simulated?

Do you know that they do not have children? Are you certain that Geth never make more Geth? Are YOUR emotions real or simulated? How do I know? A person's biology is programmed with certain reactions, does that mean our emaotions aren't real? As for civilians, how do you know they do not have "civilians", whatever that means? 

You're just making statements as though they are true without any sort of backing.

Compare to Quarians. They have innocent civilians and children and civilian ships. Creating new software isn't like birth. I can make many copies of a word file and delete them. I can't put machine over innocent children.

I'm just gonna go ahead and assume there is some sort of language barrier here preventing you from understanding that you are continually making the same statements without revealing any logic behind them and I'm gonna move on.

[DirtyPhoenix]

LucasShark wrote...

pirate1802 wrote...

... The Geth have civilians too. Did you not play the Geth consensus mission?

I'm betting he did not as he seems to have no knowledge of anything to do with them, nor any dialogue involving them besides the Quarians saying "geth is ebil!" over and over again.

He probably sold Legion to cerberus. I think all of us had this view until we met Legion..

[BlueSandBristow]

Fine. What makes all of you trust EDI then?

[Hendrik.III]

She doesn't deserve to die, she has been most helpful. I just don't care enough abot her to grieve for it. She was never alive to me.

As Shepard said in ME1 to Sovereign, the pinnacle of synthetic life: "You're not alive, not really. You are a machine, and machines can be broken."

[Zaalbar]

BlueSandBristow wrote...

Does anyone think EDI deserved her death in Destroy? I'm a bit glad she dies, honestly. Without the Reapers around, if she was alive, she might be the next AI threat we must deal with. She has Reaper tech and stuff, so I don't think it would be safe if she survived Destroy.

NO
Also Destroy dosn't end the cycle of destruction, eventually organics will create synthetics and for what ever reason those synthetics will rebel against their creators. With the Reapers completely destroyed there is nothing in place from stopping Synthetics from wiping out all organics in the galaxy.

[Demon560]

BlueSandBristow wrote...

Fine. What makes all of you trust EDI then?

Maybe all the soul searching she does throughtout ME3 or did you skip her chats, not to mention she could've turned on you at any point in ME2 or ME3.

[DirtyPhoenix]

BlueSandBristow wrote...

Fine. What makes all of you trust EDI then?

Her role in the two games. She has proven to be trustworthy over and over again. More trustworthy than, for example Javik whom you quote. I've known him only for a short time. No reason to prefer him over EDI.

Modifié par pirate1802, 13 août 2012 - 06:50 .

[LucasShark]

BlueSandBristow wrote...

Fine. What makes all of you trust EDI then?

Uh... the whole time she saved the crew?  The fact she loves Joker?  The whole soul-searching plot she goes through?  The same thing which makes me trust any of the crew members?

[LegacyOfTheAsh]

Deserves got nothing to do with it. She is a casualty.

[Omanisat]

BlueSandBristow wrote...

Fine. What makes all of you trust EDI then?

The fact she has done literally nothing to hinder me and everything to help me? By that alone she's better than 90% of the organics in the game.

[Balek-Vriege]

LucasShark wrote...

Balek-Vriege wrote...

Then explain simpler because i'm pretty tired.  (Just kidding, I think I get what you're saying now after rereading but I could be wrong.) 

Your point (I think) suggests that based off our experiences in ME that somehow the Catalyst and/or Javik are wrong in their beliefs.  That because EDI and others can reach sentience or that the Geth can reach peace with Quarians, that means AIs aren't a threat or will someday think like us.  The fact is in the ME universe the pigs have already flown if you will.  Shepard's picture of Synthetics is only a piece of the puzzle.  We're not waiting to see if pigs will evolve to fly.  They have countless times and they're scary little creatures once they do destined to destroy mankind...

So when Javik and/or the Catalyst ask "For how long?"  They're asking that not because they don't know, but because they're trying to convey the point that it has happened before and most likely will happen again.  Using two examples of AI/Organic relations which were rocky and included rebellion, confrontation and organics getting slaughtered before coming to a "positive conclusion," is ignorant of what came before.

That's why the Casino analogy works.  Shepard in the ME universe is the noob gambler basing his opinion of gambling off one or two lucky experiences, his only experiences, which were wins.  The Casino owner (Catalyst/Javik) is basing his opinion on past experience(s) that prove the opposite is more likey.  The fact that at the end of the day, "the house always wins," or "at the end of the day organics will never be able to coexist with synthetics."

No, the problem is: all are using a logical falicy.  They are using an appeal to probability as though it were a demonstrated fact, which it is not.

Yes in that sense you are correct as nothing is 100% a sure thing.  The Catalyst also makes this "mistake" with its overall Reaper plan suggesting it felt the plan was infalliable (clearly it was not and never has been).  This could be attributed to an ego problem the same way a lot of Javik's views or "facts" are based off a superiority complex.

However, one can use probability and past experience to determine a best course of action.  It is a form of stereotype but it's logical (and natural) deduction as well.  In ME both the Catalyst and Javik are mostly correct, but there's the chance they could be wrong.  That one person that wins a million at a casino and walks out never to return.

Modifié par Balek-Vriege, 13 août 2012 - 06:55 .

[BlueSandBristow]

So if she suddenly feel like it, she can just kill everyone on the ship and vent the air. Doesn't that sound scary?

[LucasShark]

Balek-Vriege wrote...

LucasShark wrote...

Balek-Vriege wrote...

Then explain simpler because i'm pretty tired.  (Just kidding, I think I get what you're saying now after rereading but I could be wrong.) 

Your point (I think) suggests that based off our experiences in ME that somehow the Catalyst and/or Javik are wrong in their beliefs.  That because EDI and others can reach sentience or that the Geth can reach peace with Quarians, that means AIs aren't a threat or will someday think like us.  The fact is in the ME universe the pigs have already flown if you will.  Shepard's picture of Synthetics is only a piece of the puzzle.  We're not waiting to see if pigs will evolve to fly.  They have countless times and they're scary little creatures once they do destined to destroy mankind...

So when Javik and/or the Catalyst ask "For how long?"  They're asking that not because they don't know, but because they're trying to convey the point that it has happened before and most likely will happen again.  Using two examples of AI/Organic relations which were rocky and included rebellion, confrontation and organics getting slaughtered before coming to a "positive conclusion," is ignorant of what came before.

That's why the Casino analogy works.  Shepard in the ME universe is the noob gambler basing his opinion of gambling off one or two lucky experiences, his only experiences, which were wins.  The Casino owner (Catalyst/Javik) is basing his opinion on past experience(s) that prove the opposite is more likey.  The fact that at the end of the day, "the house always wins," or "at the end of the day organics will never be able to coexist with synthetics."

No, the problem is: all are using a logical falicy.  They are using an appeal to probability as though it were a demonstrated fact, which it is not.

Yes in that sense you are correct as nothing is 100% a sure thing.  The Catalyst also makes this "mistake" with its overall Reaper plan suggesting it felt the plan was infalliable (clearly it was not and never has been).  This could be attributed to an ego problem the same way a lot of Javik's views or "facts" are based off a superiority complex.

However, one can use probability and past experience to determine a best course of action.  It is a form of stereotype but it's logical (and natural) deduction as well.  In ME both the Catalyst and Javik are mostly correct, but there's the chance they could be wrong.  That one person that wins a million at a casino and walks out never to return.

Fair enough: but I object to the assertion that a probability is inevitable on principal.  I especially object to any blanket statement or tactic reliant on such a pseudo-fact which relies on that being treated as a fact.  ie: any statement which says "the created will always rebel against their creators", where upon we have examples to the contrary.  It also cannot authorize the extermination of either organics or synthetics based on a pseudo-fact.

[LucasShark]

BlueSandBristow wrote...

So if she suddenly feel like it, she can just kill everyone on the ship and vent the air. Doesn't that sound scary?

And Joker could suddenly decide he's tired of life and fly the ship into the sun, doesn't that sound scary?  Yeah it does, but it is also irrational and insane to plan for as it relies upon him having some kind of psycotic episode or being posessed.

[Omanisat]

BlueSandBristow wrote...

So if she suddenly feel like it, she can just kill everyone on the ship and vent the air. Doesn't that sound scary?

At any point in ME1 Joker could have flown the ship into a planet. Isn't that scary? In ME2 & 3 EDI would be what stopped him from doing so.

EDIT: Uber ninja'd. Same point, weird.

Modifié par Omanisat, 13 août 2012 - 07:01 .

[Zaalbar]

LucasShark wrote...

BlueSandBristow wrote...

Fine. What makes all of you trust EDI then?

Uh... the whole time she saved the crew?  The fact she loves Joker?  The whole soul-searching plot she goes through?  The same thing which makes me trust any of the crew members?

I agree.
I trust EDI like any other member of the crew. Its worth mentioning that in my playthrough I think towards the end she openly admits that she would give her life for the person she loves. This was the final moment in her development as far as I'm concerned in that she finaly gets what it is to be alive.

Bioware did a fantastic job with this character, she started of as a simple AI, but even as far back as ME2 she started to grow more as a person, combined with the soul searching in ME3, Bioware has turned EDI to one of the best developed characters in Mass Effect. IMO of cause.

[AngryFrozenWater]

BlueSandBristow wrote...

I don't know, EDI might be like Skynet. Live machines can be very dangerous.

Nothing indicate she is. You are using the same stupid reasoning as the brat. That reasoning caused this mess. The next thing you have to do is turn EDI hostile to prove your point. Just like the reapers do.

Modifié par AngryFrozenWater, 13 août 2012 - 09:05 .

[LilLino]

No, of course she doesn't deserve to die. She's a terrible casualty of the crucible.
If anything, Geth deserved to pay much more than EDI did, but still not to be wiped out.
Synthetics&Organics deserve chance to cooperate on their own terms and ironically only destroy  creates such possibility.

Modifié par LilLino, 13 août 2012 - 09:59 .

[legion999]

No, no one apart from the Reapers do.

[Thane64]

 Why do you think I chose Synthesis 

[Lilihierax Krinik]

BlueSandBristow wrote...

So if she suddenly feel like it, she can just kill everyone on the ship and vent the air. Doesn't that sound scary?

I hate when people think as this. It like when someone sees the heretics and then thinks "ooooh the geth are vulnerable!!! We must kill them, the reapers will indocrinate them!" But he doesn't think about TIM and Saren, organic indocrinated. So, what about  I refuse Liara, she gets mad, and she kill the crew. Doesn't that sound scary?!?!?

[Hrothdane]

Of course she doesn't deserve it. Choosing destroy was perhaps the hardest decision my Shepard ever had to make.