35 réponses à ce sujet

[Spicen]

DA 2 has really left players having divided opinions with some siding with templars but most with mages while others still supporting chantry.

The concern is that the situation is in stalemate . I saw a thread "Hypocrisy of the Chantry" where even real world cultural animosity started. This stalemate eventually has to be broken and a compromise has to be reached.

MY OPINION: Let the mages be free and only when they commit crime should they be punished like normal men. Granted that they might become demons, but then again thats where the templars come in. If templars cant handle demons they are virtually useless. So a new policy has to be created and at the same time the chantry has to stay. The chantry is not a lie. We see that Andraste's sacred ashes heal Eamon thus proving that Andraste and maker exists. The chantry cannot be held for what the templars do bcoz they have limited power. The templar order was created as a compromise to keep the mages from death so it does not have total control over the order.

So anyway guys do u think a compromise can be reached or will it come to blows???

Modifié par Spicen, 15 août 2012 - 06:20 .

[Lemina Ausa]

Spicen wrote...
We see that Andraste's sacred ashes heal Eamon thus proving that Andraste and maker exists.

Actually......

If you brought oghren along to the temple of andraste, he will comment when you enter that his skin "feels a prickle". When you ask the guardian why he has lived so long, he will comment that that "prickle" he felt was the presence of lyrium veins, in HUGE quantities, in the mountains, and he wonders aloud if that's the real reason the guardian has lived so long. Later at the ashes itself, he will comment again that it is entirely possible that the vast amounts of lyrium present here could have altered the ashes so they gained healing powers.

And yes, he was actually sober there for once.

[Spicen]

Lemina Ausa wrote...

Spicen wrote...
We see that Andraste's sacred ashes heal Eamon thus proving that Andraste and maker exists.

Actually......

If you brought oghren along to the temple of andraste, he will comment when you enter that his skin "feels a prickle". When you ask the guardian why he has lived so long, he will comment that that "prickle" he felt was the presence of lyrium veins, in HUGE quantities, in the mountains, and he wonders aloud if that's the real reason the guardian has lived so long. Later at the ashes itself, he will comment again that it is entirely possible that the vast amounts of lyrium present here could have altered the ashes so they gained healing powers.

And yes, he was actually sober there for once.

Which still implies that Lyrium has something special about it, something we may not know. maybe Lyrium is the blood of teh maker

[Lemina Ausa]

Spicen wrote...

Which still implies that Lyrium has something special about it, something we may not know. maybe Lyrium is the blood of teh maker

Lyrium is special yes, but nothing in the lore (that I can remember, anyway) says it has anything to do with the maker. It is still entirely possible the maker is a fantasy that the chantry dreamt up off, and used to control the population.

Anyway this doesn't really have anything to do with mages vs templars, I just wanted to point out that the ashes' healing powers might have absolutely nothing to do with the maker, so I'll just keep quiet now.

[Arthur Cousland]

Lemina Ausa wrote...

Spicen wrote...

Which still implies that Lyrium has something special about it, something we may not know. maybe Lyrium is the blood of teh maker

Lyrium is special yes, but nothing in the lore (that I can remember, anyway) says it has anything to do with the maker. It is still entirely possible the maker is a fantasy that the chantry dreamt up off, and used to control the population.

Anyway this doesn't really have anything to do with mages vs templars, I just wanted to point out that the ashes' healing powers might have absolutely nothing to do with the maker, so I'll just keep quiet now.

Don't let anyone from the chantry read that, or they'll use that as an excuse to call an exalted march.

As I usually save Orzammar for last, I've never taken Oghren to see the ashes or the fade.  Interesting info.

As for the topic, I don't think the chantry will ever leave the mages alone, since they blame all mages for what the ancient magisters did and feel that once they start believing that mages are actually people, that they'll enslave all of Theadas again.

If the mages want to maintain their freedom, they'll have to not submit and allow the chantry and their templars to keep them on a leash and behind bars.

Modifié par Arthur Cousland, 13 août 2012 - 06:40 .

[LeBurns]

Lemina Ausa wrote...

Spicen wrote...
We see that Andraste's sacred ashes heal Eamon thus proving that Andraste and maker exists.

Actually......

If you brought oghren along to the temple of andraste, he will comment when you enter that his skin "feels a prickle". When you ask the guardian why he has lived so long, he will comment that that "prickle" he felt was the presence of lyrium veins, in HUGE quantities, in the mountains, and he wonders aloud if that's the real reason the guardian has lived so long. Later at the ashes itself, he will comment again that it is entirely possible that the vast amounts of lyrium present here could have altered the ashes so they gained healing powers.

And yes, he was actually sober there for once.

Well, I never knew that.  Hundreds of hours playing DAO and I never had Oghren with me to see the Ashes.  I would have first come to the conclusion that the OP had, but now I'm not so sure anymore.  The lyrium connection with demons and sending people to the Fade, and Eamon's sicking being from a demon ... in the Fade, does kind of all make sense now.  Much like lyrium is used to send mages into the Fade I suppose a priest with the right knowledge could use some to disconnect someone from the Fade, thus curing him from a Fade induced sickness.

[Xilizhra]

The lyrium connection with demons and sending people to the Fade, and Eamon's sicking being from a demon ... in the Fade, does kind of all make sense now.

Actually, Eamon's sickness was due to plain old poison. The demon was keeping him alive.

[Little Princess Peach]

why can't people just let the mages go to school and still live with there families at the end of the day this is what it's really about

[Zkyire]

Spicen wrote...

DA 2 has really left players having divided opinions with some siding with templars but most with templars while others still supporting chantry.

The concern is that the situation is in stalemate . I saw a thread "Hypocrisy of the Chantry" where even real world cultural animosity started. This stalemate eventually has to be broken and a compromise has to be reached.

MY OPINION: Let the mages be free and only when they commit crime should they be punished like normal men. Granted that they might become demons, but then again thats where the templars come in. If templars cant handle demons they are virtually useless. So a new policy has to be created and at the same time the chantry has to stay. The chantry is not a lie. We see that Andraste's sacred ashes heal Eamon thus proving that Andraste and maker exists. The chantry cannot be held for what the templars do bcoz they have limited power. The templar order was created as a compromise to keep the mages from death so it does not have total control over the order.

So anyway guys do u think a compromise can be reached or will it come to blows???

Your suggestion is actually what I wanted myself.

1) Take them into the Circle as normal.

2) Train them as normal.

3) When they have passed their Harrowing; let them stay if they want, or set them free.

4) Use the Templars to act as a Mage Police Force.

The problem is, for this to happen, the Templar Order needs to be expanded significantly. And someone has to fund it.

[King Cousland]

Regardless of whether the Chantry's teachings are true are not, magic does need to be supervised and regulated. That isn't to say that they should be kept under lock and key, but a Thedas-wide Tevinter model would be disastrous. I believe that these reforms would be suitable:

• The Circle will separate from the Chantry and serve as a purely educational, guild-style organization
• All mages upon showing magical ability must be registered to the crown.
• Upon coming of age, they will submit to the Circle to be tested for signs of possession of blood magic (under the supervision of templars). Refusal to co-operate will lead to house arrest, though they may continue to live as before, merely under supervision.
• If signs of possession are found, an exorcism must be attempted by volunteers. If blood magic is used by mages, they must be imprisoned and banned from performing any magic. If they do not comply, they will be executed.
• Mages may work and live freely as any other citizen, and their identity as a mage may be kept secret if they so wish. They may hold titles and become priests.
• Remaning templars will hunt rogue mages who refuse to submit to examination, and imprison them. They will also hunt escaped blood mages and bring them to justice. 

[Eternal Phoenix]

Epic Templar Guy for Dragon Age 3:

 

Epic Templar Guy IS The Maker and here's proof:

 
Such awesomeness could only be achieved by a god. Epic Templar Guy is The Maker.

 
Epic Templar Guy says:

"Death to mages."

I follow. 

He also adds:

"I'm awesome."

I agree.

[coles4971]

It's like the Kirkwall Templars have a much stricter budget than Ferelden ones, the Fereldan armour looks so fancier.

[brushyourteeth]

Zkyire wrote...

Spicen wrote...

So anyway guys do u think a compromise can be reached or will it come to blows???

Your suggestion is actually what I wanted myself.

1) Take them into the Circle as normal.

2) Train them as normal.

3) When they have passed their Harrowing; let them stay if they want, or set them free.

4) Use the Templars to act as a Mage Police Force.

The problem is, for this to happen, the Templar Order needs to be expanded significantly. And someone has to fund it.

I've tossed that idea around in my head too and never been bold enough to face the flamestorm that would inevitably follow from me even suggesting the idea of more Templars. So kudos to you, sir/madam. 

I personally feel that mages should have never been violently removed from their families and locked in a Tower for forever. I think it makes much more sense for there to be tight communities of non-mage-hating peoples that spring up around the towers where mages are trained and where the mages' family members can move permanently or occupy regularly, with the mages being able to roam freely inside the city walls under Templar jurisdiction. Much of the problem seems to be that mages and normal people don't know what to think of each other due to all this separation, and anyone who is denied the basic rights of sunshine, fresh air, and community with the outside world is eventually going to snap.

Now it's probably too little, too late.

Modifié par brushyourteeth, 13 août 2012 - 05:02 .

[atum]

Spicen wrote...

DA 2 has really left players having divided opinions with some siding with templars but most with templars while others still supporting chantry.

huh? 

[Cerah]

Lemina Ausa wrote...

Spicen wrote...
We see that Andraste's sacred ashes heal Eamon thus proving that Andraste and maker exists.

Actually......

If you brought oghren along to the temple of andraste, he will comment when you enter that his skin "feels a prickle". When you ask the guardian why he has lived so long, he will comment that that "prickle" he felt was the presence of lyrium veins, in HUGE quantities, in the mountains, and he wonders aloud if that's the real reason the guardian has lived so long. Later at the ashes itself, he will comment again that it is entirely possible that the vast amounts of lyrium present here could have altered the ashes so they gained healing powers.

And yes, he was actually sober there for once.

Considering Andraste apparently had "maker-given powers," I think it's totally possible that Andraste may have in fact been a mage herself, giving her ashes healing properites - perhaps further influenced by the lyrium.... or it could have totally been lyrium. Regardless, be it that Andraste was a mage or the lyrium affected the ashes, there isn't any real proof in either game that the Maker exists. I have some additional info to go with the idea that the Maker may not be real (or, if He is, considerably different from how people view Him), though that would probably be a pretty big spoiler since it's hinted at with Legacy.

Back to the Mages and Templar thing...

Honestly I think it would be really nice if mages where given the same rights and freedoms as normal men; if a mage was the child of a noblemen or a king, they would loose all of their titles... which seems really, really sad. I understand the fear someone could have if their neighbor was able to, in theory, set their house on fire, get posssessed be a demon, or use blood magic to influence other people.
I think a nice medium is that all known mages would give blood to the Templars, so they would have a phylactary, and get routine checkups by Templars. Oh, and perhaps until a mage completes their Harrowing, they're confined to the tower; after that, they're free to go and continue their lives in normal society, or continue their education in the Circle. (or do both)

Obviously, Templars are needed, but being forced to live most of your life cooped up in a tower sounds really sad... more so when being a mage could help so many people. I'm not sure if anyone really remembers it, but there is a beggar in the city elf origin, who mentions how he was cripped when he was working at the docks, and his employer threw him into some alleyway to rot, and how he was only found later on by his sons when they went looking for him. You can ask why they couldn't have used healing magic on him, and the beggar mentions how they wouldn't have wasted the money to heal an elven laborer. I'd imagine with healing magic, there would be less fatalities with giving birth, ect too.

Modifié par Cerah, 15 août 2012 - 05:35 .

[Cerah]

Accidently sent a second post; my bad. ;

Modifié par Cerah, 15 août 2012 - 05:34 .

[Spicen]

atum wrote...

Spicen wrote...

DA 2 has really left players having divided opinions with some siding with templars but most with templars while others still supporting chantry.

huh? 

OOPs my bad. its supposed to be mages

[dragonflight288]

Tali-vas-normandy wrote...

why can't people just let the mages go to school and still live with there families at the end of the day this is what it's really about

Because templars and their supporters feel that the risk of abominations and blood mages controlling people is too great to allow a single mage to be free from the Circles.

They also feel that emotions are too big a weakness for mages and that's why a mage needs special permission to marry and their children are taken from them at birth as property of the Chantry.

[Heimdall]

I don't really support the chantry, but I just think some mage supporters go too far when they proclaim it a malicious entity that solely desires control over the populace. It's like any real world religion in that it espouses its own rules and values (Including charity and kindness) and like many real world religions, it has corruption and fanatics. Remember, the Chantry's attitude towards mages was formed in an age where mages had so recently been a terrifying oligarchy that nigh universally visited tyranny and abuse upon the populace. A mage just flat out has much more potential to be dangerous than a normal person. I don't condone what the chantry does, but I understand it and cannot fully condemn it.

[Beerfish]

As you say it is a stalemate. for some reason people forget one element in the equation most of the time. The common citizen. We debate about the chantry, the mages, the templars and only occasionally does anyone consider the common man.

As for your solution, how do you think this would go over? We are allowing a person who may turn ionto a mass killer at any moment to live in your village. He's a nice fellow and means well but don't worry, if he goes beserrk and kills you all he will be punished.

In the big mage/temple/chantry pus against each other, like most of history dictates, the side that wins the hearts of the population will win the day.

[Renmiri1]

Hogwarts FTW!

[LolaLei]

Avejajed wrote...

No compromise!

LOL!

[Fast Jimmy]

Mages are going to be free at the end of DA3. The whole point of the Circle rebelling was so the devs could have a reason for Mages to be found outside the tower.

That's not to say the Mages will "win", per se. But the devs stated they loved the idea of the tower, but in practice, it made having a mage anywhere else in the game, for combat or story purposes, something that had to be explained away for the most part. They set the Mage/Templar War up to have a way for mages to be found outside the tower for the rest of the franchise. So the Mages will, at the very least, earn amnesty and the ability to live out from underneath Templar law, after DA3. This is a given.