73 réponses à ce sujet

[Face of Evil]

Yes, that is pretty much HBO's main selling point.

[GavrielKay]

EntropicAngel wrote...

Elton John is dead wrote...

As I was explaining, newspapers, films with 18 ratings, artwork, sculptures and others form of art and media show nudity. So shouldn't a dark and mature 18 rated game which is supposed to be for adults show nudity too when it's presenting sexual content? It makes sense as pretty much every 18 rated film I've seen with a romance scene shows nudity.

In fact even 15 rated media has shown nudity in romance scenes. The Weatherman (2005, Nicolas Cage) has nudity in a sex scene showing a woman's breasts.

So I ask again, why can't a dark, mature RPG for adults which features dismemberment show partial nudity during romance scenes when even 15 rated media has done it?

It sure as heck looks like you're saying it's necessary. That's the problem I had with your post.

I think I understood Elton John is dead perfectly.  They aren't saying nudity is necessary in "dark and mature" games but that covering it up with silly looking undergarments when nudity would have been more appropriate for the action in the scene becomes silly.  If the game is meant for mature audiences, they should be able to handle nudity in a scene where the people depicted would be nude. 

If BioWare aren't willing to show the romance as it would actually occur, they should leave it out - which is what they did in DA2.

Saying do the scene properly or don't do it at all, is not the same as saying dark & mature = nudity.

[erilben]

Elton John is dead wrote...

What artwork? Likely the same body would be used. You speak as though it takes Bioware years to create a model.

No one would use the same body. Even Anders looks like he's skinnier than male Hawke, so it would look strange to use the same body for them. DG wanted a shirtless Fenris for the romance, but the artists told him something would have to be cut to get it.

Modifié par erilben, 15 août 2012 - 01:08 .

[Eternal Phoenix]

erilben wrote...

Elton John is dead wrote...

What artwork? Likely the same body would be used. You speak as though it takes Bioware years to create a model.

No one would use the same body. Even Anders looks like he's skinnier than male Hawke, so it would look strange to use the same body for them. DG wanted a shirtless Fenris for the romance, but the artists told him something would have to be cut to get it.

Yeah but that's due to DA2 being rushed.

[Sylvanpyxie]

So I ask again, why can't a dark, mature RPG for adults which features dismemberment show partial nudity during romance scenes when even 15 rated media has done it?

Perhaps because it's unnecessary and would likely cause uproar from a large portion of the parental community.

Whether we accept or not, in a lot of societies, violence has become more widely acceptable than sex has. That doesn't make violence good and it doesn't make sex wrong, but it's simply how it is.

*Shrugs*

We live in a world of prudes. It's not a big deal.

Modifié par Sylvanpyxie, 15 août 2012 - 02:29 .

[GavrielKay]

Sylvanpyxie wrote...
We live in a world of prudes. It's not a big deal.

It's not a big deal in context of any given video game, but it is rather stupid of society to glorify violence and demonize sex.  Living in the US, I am constantly annoyed by bleeping and blurring and generally being a victim of the "think of the children" crowd who really just want to be sure that no one can see anything that offends their small minds.

In a way I'm glad DA2 just faded to black because it was less goofy than the ugly underwear they used in DA:O.  I do find it kinda funny that some folks will go on about the lack of breasts when full frontal nudity for male actors is far more rare.

[EricHVela]

It seems to that we have finally converged on a common theme: Do it right or don't do it at all.

I think that we have all converged on the idea that covering the "naughty bits" when nudity made sense ended up taking something that should have been mature and turned it into something childish.

Where we still deviate, from what I can tell, is whether or not showing nudity should happen in Dragon Age. I see three schools of thoughts:

• Show it regardless since there is plenty of other content that is just as or is more sensitive than nudity in the game.
• Suggest it without actually showing full-frontal in the manner that one finds in all kinds of media (including content intended for mature audiences).
• Skip it to avoid controversy since it causes too much trouble to be worth it regardless of other sensitive content in the game.

Sounds to me like we have a poll-worthy situation now.


EDIT: Someone else will have to do the poll if it's to appear impartial. I've tried to phrase it differently several times now, but even I can see that my wording is biased towards what I prefer despite that all three should be presented with equal validity.

Modifié par ReggarBlane, 15 août 2012 - 05:58 .

[Vox Draco]

Well, this discussion here got more mature than the initial OP promised...

I am kind of divided on that issue. As a european I have no problem with nudity (male and female) in games or movies or advertisments. And I think it is ridiculous to censor an exposed nipple but have blood, gore and dismemberment in a game, often as a major selling point even. Violence or sex? Is a mutilated body more appealing than a beautiful nude one?

I also think it is kind of funny and unrealistic to have people engage in sex wearing bra and panties, and even wearing it afterwards in bed...the prefered contraceptive in America...?

Someone mentioned it already: If you don' twant to show nipples or pubic areas, than at least try some creative angles to give this illusion...if not for the voyeur than for immersion's sake...

And on a side-note: I thought the scene in the elven bath in Witcher 2 was quite lovely to watch and also quite artistically done...much more at least than the one's in DAO or DA2

[GavrielKay]

Vox Draco wrote...
Well, this discussion here got more mature than the initial OP promised...

Someone should note down this rare occasion

Violence or sex? Is a mutilated body more appealing than a beautiful nude one?

As an American, I love my country, but find the prevailing attitudes towards sex to be often ridiculous.  The "think of the children" crowd, I am convinced, couldn't care less about the children.  They want all titilating content to be off limits and they just get the most mileage out of appealing to parental instincts.  I suppose the idea at one time was that violence doesn't tempt kids the same way that sex does.  However, the recent trends in violence among kids and adults alike belies that attitude.  

I'm NOT saying I think violent games are responsible - merely that obviously violence is just as seductive to certain people as sex is to others.  Thus, the idea that we must protect our kids from sexual content while freely tossing about blood and gore is stupid.  There is zero good reason for kids to grow up thinking violence is normal and sex isn't.

I certainly don't need my RPG to be soft/hard core pornography, but as said before, if they are going to show a scene like that, then show it properly.  As a woman, I tend to prefer the romance aspects over the blatant physical ones, and I missed that in DA2.  You couldn't even talk to your LI outside of a few predetermined scenes.  At least in DA:O you could kiss your LI or suggest heading off to bed.

I can appreciate that DA2 decided not to walk the line between entertainment and porn, but romance would have been nice.

[Sylvanpyxie]

it is rather stupid of society to glorify violence and demonize sex.

Agreed. It's stupid to make sex and nudity appear shameful, while actively promoting violent video-games to kids under the age of 15.

However, Bioware are a company and they need to appeal to the widest possible audience in order to make maximum profits. If they were to include nudity and sex in their games there would undoubtedly be uproar similar to that of the Fox News Mass Effect Scandal (which was complete BS by the by).

You can't cure the world of their prudish beliefs. It can't be fixed and, as a company, Bioware can't afford to overlook the fact that everyone, for some unknown reason, seems to have a problem with sex.

It would damage their reputation and eventually their profits.

On a semi related but not quite on topic note: Nudity *is* unnecessary. There is nothing that pixelated nudity could actually add to the romances, or to the game as a whole.

Nudity in video games is nothing but window dressing, a brief graphical interlude with no real substance to it, in my opinion, it's simply a waste of resources that could be better spent elsewhere.

Writing and comprehensive dialogue would, by comparison, add a great deal of substance to the romances, the characters involved in the romances, and to the game as a whole. It creates a solid foundation on which to improve.

Bioware have shaky foundations, not nearly solid enough for them to considering window dressing. Substance before Style.

Just my opinion anyway.

[esper]

Personally, while I find the whole subject of hiding nudity ridiculless, and prudish.
I can say that I would much rather have a long build up, after math and focus on what it means to be in a relentionship than and actual sex scene. More charactherization less sex, I guess.

[jillabender]

GavrielKay wrote…

There is zero good reason for kids to grow up thinking violence is normal and sex isn't.

Well said – I completely agree.

I enjoy seeing mild and tastefully done nudity in a romantic context, although I'm also fine with DA2's approach of fading to black.

Sylvanpixie wrote…

There is nothing that pixelated nudity could actually add to the romances, or to the game as a whole.

I disagree with you just a bit here. I think it's very possible to have an erotic and romantic scene without any nudity, but I do think that a bit of tasteful nudity, when done well, can add to the atmosphere of the moment by creating a sense of vulnerability. That being said, I absolutely agree that nudity isn't a requirement for romance in a game.

Sylvanpixie wrote…

We live in a world of prudes. It's not a big deal.

While nudity in a game absolutely isn't a requirement for me, I admit I'm bothered by the attitudes of hardcore social conservatives who are adamantly against the inclusion of any sexual content or nudity in a sexual context in a game, no matter how it's done.

I don't have a problem with a game deciding not to include nudity and/or sexual content, but when I hear of people (for example, conservative parents' groups) going to great lengths to try to keep such content from ever being included, I can't help but find their attitudes very distasteful.

That being said, I apologize for taking the discussion a bit off topic – just needed to get that off my chest. ^^;

Modifié par jillabender, 15 août 2012 - 09:14 .

[Vox Draco]

Well, this basically means: You can show violence, because our kids will hardly get out saturday night and use their parents legally purchased automatic assault rife to immitate their last Battlefield Online experience, but NEVER show nude women or sex, because then they will go out immediately and participate in the wildest orgies and impregnate everything they get their hands on! (or get pregnate, for that matter) ?

Sounds valid!

No, in fact it is a problem here of the society: If you don't show it and ban it, it won't happen. It is sex in America, and here in Germany the same with violence. Both is condemed by the official public...games are forbidden to be sold openly due to violent content, yet everyone is buying them from Austria or whatever else...and America? Has the largest porn industry worldwide...plus a severe issue nevertheless with violence and guns...

I don't have a recipe, but I think it is a mistake to compeltly avoid violence or sex. Both are part of our nature, of humanity. We should finally except those as part of what we are, and integrate violence and sex more openly in our thinking...that's sounds a bit weird, I hope it came across what I mean...(Not beating your partner daily or course, but that violence, the desire to fight or compete or the enjoyment in an action movie is not per se bad, and so is a naked human being something to enjoy watching...at least in some cases...*cough*)

Back to Brood mother ******? *sigh* Alright...The depiction of the naked human body is art since the first cave drawings, and look at a museum of your choice you will see the influence of the naked body on almost every artist (maybe except Monet and the likes). So, if the videogame-industry so desperatly wants to be recognized as "art", maybe they should sometimes take this into consideration.

And the last thought of today: Yes, a sex-scene is only "valid" for me if it is part of a romance or the development of the main character...I liked the little flirting and comments from the other NPCs in regards to the relationship of my Warden to Alistair, that was far more interesting than having a short cutscene of them getting it on. Nevertheless, the fact they HAD sex is important, as it is the step where they start to totally trust each other and both wardens gain something worth LIVING for...far more important than something worth dying for, as far as I am concerned...

Does anyone actually read this, by the way? Ah, whatever...

[GavrielKay]

Sylvanpyxie wrote...
You can't cure the world of their prudish beliefs. It can't be fixed and, as a company, Bioware can't afford to overlook the fact that everyone, for some unknown reason, seems to have a problem with sex.

I'm not sure that I agree it can't be fixed, or that it shouldn't be fixed...  but I do agree that it isn't BioWare's problem to fix it.  Certainly, they need to make decisions based on maximizing acceptance of their game and profits.  To that end, I think they made the right choice in leaving out the cheesy censored sex scene in DA2.

I think they went in the wrong direction with companion interaction and the romance aspects though.

[GavrielKay]

Vox Draco wrote...
Does anyone actually read this, by the way? Ah, whatever...

I did

Nice points.  It seems most of us agree that while uncensored sex scenes done tastefully and within the context of a rich romance are great.  Censored scenes or gratuitous nudity just don't add to the quality of the game.

The whole broodmother nudity is OK but love scene nudity isn't does offer a real insight into prudism in America (and possibly other places) though.  Nudity is ok if it is completely non-sexual, but bad if it could be considered seductive.

Blech.

and America? Has the largest porn industry worldwide..

Yeah, we have a love/hate relationship with sex.  Some people love to hate it and others love to be naughty

Modifié par GavrielKay, 15 août 2012 - 09:42 .

[Sylvanpyxie]

Does anyone actually read this, by the way?

Only the bits they want to argue.

Anywho, I agree with this.

Or not.

That being said, I absolutely agree that nudity isn't a requirement for romance in a game.

I have no problem with nudity in computer games. It's an excellent *addition* to a well written, well rounded, progressive romantic story arc. As you said, it can add atmosphere. On the whole, though, it is really quite unnecessary.

The problem is it needs to have that solid, well rounded, strong foundation of character development and interactive progression in order for it to be the least bit effective, and if you have all that then in actuality you've already achieved greatness.

Nudity isn't going to improve a poorly handled character arc. It's not going to turn an amateur writer's first character with into a masterpiece. It's not going to help players overlook the stagnant lack of progression, the lack luster personality and the lack of integral back-story.

Bioware have flounced a *lot* with the foundations of their character romances, and nudity is not going to fix that at any point. Bioware need to focus on the foundations of their characters before they even think about consuming time and resources to render nude romantic interludes.

That's just my opinion, but there you go. I'm a bigger picture kind of girl.

[Sylvanpyxie]

What? Okay, nevermind.

Sorry, thank you for agreeing with my point. It was just unexpected.

I read an interesting book called "The Handbook of Novel Writing" that presents an interesting (as well as similar to yours) take on this.

Do let me know if you find it anywhere online, i'd be interested to have a look, but don't bother going through a lot of effort if you can't. I'm sure i'll be able to dig it up somewhere.

[jillabender]

EntropicAngel wrote…

I am not against nudity in games, despite what it seems. I'm against it for no purpose.

Don't worry – I can't speak for anyone else, but I never thought you were completely against nudity in games. My reference to hardcore social conservatives wasn't directed against you, or anyone in this thread.

Sylvanpixie wrote…

I have no problem with nudity in computer games. It's an excellent *addition* to a well written, well rounded, progressive romantic story arc. As you said, it can add atmosphere. On the whole, though, it is really quite unnecessary.

The problem is it needs to have that solid, well rounded, strong foundation of character development and interactive progression in order for it to be the least bit effective, and if you have all that then in actuality you've already achieved greatness.

Nudity isn't going to improve a poorly handled character arc. It's not going to turn an amateur writer's first character with into a masterpiece. It's not going to help players overlook the stagnant lack of progression, the lack luster personality and the lack of integral back-story.

Bioware have flounced a *lot* with the foundations of their character romances, and nudity is not going to fix that at any point. Bioware need to focus on the foundations of their characters before they even think about consuming time and resources to render nude romantic interludes.

That's a fair point – when it comes to creating a strong romance in a game, there are far more important things to focus on than nudity.

Modifié par jillabender, 15 août 2012 - 11:58 .

[HollowSunsets]

Didn't expect such a in-depth discussion about this.
My thoughts mirror the majority of yours.

[inb4lock]

I thought the romances for the onboard crewmembers in ME3 was decent but i could not help laughing when i saw scenes like this www.youtube.com/watch I mean, who showers with their clothes on....?

It could easily have been done with fullnudity without showing them from the front even the conversation in bed. Just show then from behind or with an arm cowering the boos. As said earlier its all about camera angles.

I do not want nudety for the sake of nudety. But when you do a showerscene (or anyscene like it for that matter) in an 18+ game, please do it right. The Liara romance was actually well done in that regard.

Edit: I know its the DA2 forum, im just using ME3 as a reference because of the easy access to examples.

Modifié par inb4lock, 20 août 2012 - 09:37 .