99 réponses à ce sujet

[KevTheGamer]

Jonata wrote...

90% of questions like these about the Catalyst can be solved once you realize that the Catalyst is the collective consciousness of the Reapers. He was not there during the previous games, waiting for the Reapers, because he IS the Reapers.

He is like Legion, but instead of 1128 Geth programs, his Consensus contains the consciences of the entire Reaper Fleet.

I agee but aren't the Keepers Reapers as well? Husks, Collectors, Cannibals, Banshees, Brutes ect are all Reapers right?

[KevTheGamer]

tyrvas wrote...

This thread NEEDS the ONE and ONLY................ VIGIL!

Shepard asks about the Citadel as a Relay....

Vigil: "The Reapers are careful to keep the greatest secrets of the Citadel hidden.
This is why they created a species of seemingly benign organic caretakers."

Vigil: "The keepers maintain the Citadels most basic functions. They enable any
species that discovers the Citadel to use it with out understanding it's technology."

Vigil: "Reliance of the keepers ensures no other species will ever discover the Citadel's true nature.
Not until the relay is activated and the Reapers invade"

later on in the conversation Shep & Vigil talk about the Prothean researchers...

Vigil: "When the researchers woke, they realized the Prothean species was doomed.
There were only a dozen individuals left, far too few to sustain a viable population."

Vigil: "Yet they vowed to find someway to stop the Reapers from returning.
A way to break the cycle forever. And they knew the keepers where the key."

Shepard asks, why is Saren trying to find the Conduit?

Vigil: "The Conduit gives him access to the Citadel and the keepers."

Vigil: "The keepers are controlled by the Citadel. Before each invasion a signal is
sent through the station compeling the keepers to activate the Citadel relay."

Vigil: "After decades of leverish study, the scientist discovered a way to alter this signal.
Using the Conduit, they gained access to the Citadel and made the modifications."

Vigil: "This time, when Sovereign sent the signal to the Citadel, the keepers ignored it.
The Reapers are trapped in dark space."

Does this mean that the Catalyst does not control the citadel as well?

[Tazzmission]

Flog61 wrote...

I think the leviathan dlc may include the keeper tunnels as the new areas of the citadel.

i hope the keepers are explained somehow


i just finished both me1 and me2 ( starting me3)


i really hope this dlc ties up the loose ends we all are curious about like keepers, reapers, dark space, catalyst creators

[Ticonderoga117]

1. He does not need the Reapers to exist. Why? Because HE CAME FIRST!
2. He is a very powerful AI. He could've easily beaten any sabotage the Protheans inflicted over a period of 50,000 years.
3. He clearly controls the Citadel when we meet him because he brings you to him, and opens the Citadel arms.

He is broken. He makes ME1 and 2 broken. He needs to GO!

[KevTheGamer]

Ticonderoga117 wrote...

1. He does not need the Reapers to exist. Why? Because HE CAME FIRST!
2. He is a very powerful AI. He could've easily beaten any sabotage the Protheans inflicted over a period of 50,000 years.
3. He clearly controls the Citadel when we meet him because he brings you to him, and opens the Citadel arms.

He is broken. He makes ME1 and 2 broken. He needs to GO!

I disagree that he needs to go. I like the catalyst but I think the way he was introduced was sloppy and could probably be fixed with some good DLC. 

[Genetic Destiny]

We need the crucible. Crucible needs the catalyst.

Citadel is the catalyst. Catalyst is the collective intelligence of reapers.

We have the crucible and now we need the catalyst. Catalyst is the citadel collective intelligence of the reapers.

In order to win this war with our superweapon we need to use the citadel collective intelligence of the reapers.

Something's not right here.

Modifié par Genetic Destiny, 13 août 2012 - 10:02 .

[DeathWingKingUltimate]

Catalyst Created BEFORE the reapers. Whatever we say, writers include him after ME2. it was going to be the one and only Harbinger.

[Memnon]

maaaze wrote...

1)It is unknown how he took control...there are endless possibilities how he could have done this...in my sig. is one possibility.

2)by programming them. by indoctrination. by constructing them this way.

3)Control has not to be direct. if you can change someones goals, you control them by proxy and they can remain independent otherwise.

Catalyst:  No, the Citadel is part of me

Note he doesn't say I am part of the Citadel - to say that something is a part of you implies that you supercede it. If he doesn't have control of the Citadel, how does he lower the elevator to bring Shepard up. He has some control, he has to. If he has no control over a simple signal on the Catalyst, well that's a pretty poor AI ... 

Shepard: I need to stop the Reapers. Do you know how I can do that?
Catalyst:  Perhaps. I control the Reapers, they are my solution

This is not ambiguous. This is not the Catalyst saying, "I control them by proxy ... I just set their programming and turned them loose" etc. He says "I control the Reapers." Period. Why are people interpreting things that are completely counter to what he actually says?

[Forst1999]

Ticonderoga117 wrote...

1. He does not need the Reapers to exist. Why? Because HE CAME FIRST!
2. He is a very powerful AI. He could've easily beaten any sabotage the Protheans inflicted over a period of 50,000 years.
3. He clearly controls the Citadel when we meet him because he brings you to him, and opens the Citadel arms.

He is broken. He makes ME1 and 2 broken. He needs to GO!

Being a powerful AI does not make you omnipotent. The prothean scientists altered the Keepers. If they had altered the Citadel, the catalyst might have been able to repair the damage, but as it is, he does not have the necessary access to the Keepers. Being able to control some funtions of the Citadel does not mean he can control them all. The best scientists the protheans had to offer likely knew their work.

[Evo_9]

Its incredible how so many dont understand the basic plot of mass effect, and blame the writers because they cant be bothered to pay attention to the story.

[BaladasDemnevanni]

Stornskar wrote...

maaaze wrote...

1)It is unknown how he took control...there are endless possibilities how he could have done this...in my sig. is one possibility.

2)by programming them. by indoctrination. by constructing them this way.

3)Control has not to be direct. if you can change someones goals, you control them by proxy and they can remain independent otherwise.

Catalyst:  No, the Citadel is part of me

Note he doesn't say I am part of the Citadel - to say that something is a part of you implies that you supercede it. If he doesn't have control of the Citadel, how does he lower the elevator to bring Shepard up. He has some control, he has to. If he has no control over a simple signal on the Catalyst, well that's a pretty poor AI ... 

Shepard: I need to stop the Reapers. Do you know how I can do that?
Catalyst:  Perhaps. I control the Reapers, they are my solution

This is not ambiguous. This is not the Catalyst saying, "I control them by proxy ... I just set their programming and turned them loose" etc. He says "I control the Reapers." Period. Why are people interpreting things that are completely counter to what he actually says?

To add to this, what really breaks the Catalyst is the fact that we see less accomplished VIs and AIs with greater functionality (Ex: EDI's ability to control the Normandy airlocks, etc). Why can't the Catalyst activate the Citadel relay, thus negating the need for the keepers? As far as we know, there is no explanation for this seemingly straightforward ability.

Modifié par BaladasDemnevanni, 13 août 2012 - 11:27 .

[BaladasDemnevanni]

Forst1999 wrote...

Ticonderoga117 wrote...

1. He does not need the Reapers to exist. Why? Because HE CAME FIRST!
2. He is a very powerful AI. He could've easily beaten any sabotage the Protheans inflicted over a period of 50,000 years.
3. He clearly controls the Citadel when we meet him because he brings you to him, and opens the Citadel arms.

He is broken. He makes ME1 and 2 broken. He needs to GO!

Being a powerful AI does not make you omnipotent. The prothean scientists altered the Keepers. If they had altered the Citadel, the catalyst might have been able to repair the damage, but as it is, he does not have the necessary access to the Keepers. Being able to control some funtions of the Citadel does not mean he can control them all. The best scientists the protheans had to offer likely knew their work.

It doesn't make you omnipotent. But when you claim responsibility for creating the Reapers against your makers' plans, you obviously have some degree of control going on. But as it stands, no explanation is offered for why the Catalyst can move an elevator, but not open the relay arms. Or in general, what there is to stop an AI from opening the arms any different than a door or sucking the oxygen out of a room.

Modifié par BaladasDemnevanni, 13 août 2012 - 11:33 .

[LucasShark]

It was held closed by the raw power of Casey Hudson's artistic vision!!!

No I'm joking: that's a colossal plot hole and all because neither Walters nor Hudson it seems back-checked what they were doing.

[Funkdrspot]

The citadel is part of the catalyst, the protheans hacked the citadel signal that controlled the keepers, the protheans thought the keepers were the ones who opened the relay to dark space but it was really the catalyst, thus the protheans REALLY hacked the catalyst into ignoring his own singla to get out of snooze mode and start the cycle.

[Genetic Destiny]

Funkdrspot wrote...

The citadel is part of the catalyst, the protheans hacked the citadel signal that controlled the keepers, the protheans thought the keepers were the ones who opened the relay to dark space but it was really the catalyst, thus the protheans REALLY hacked the catalyst into ignoring his own singla to get out of snooze mode and start the cycle.

That doesn't completely add up, since the catalyst is the reapers collective intelligence and if he was asleep, Sovereign would be too.

If this is valid then the catalyst is even more laughable than before.

[Mazebook]

KevWestBeats.com wrote...

tyrvas wrote...

This thread NEEDS the ONE and ONLY................ VIGIL!

Shepard asks about the Citadel as a Relay....

Vigil: "The Reapers are careful to keep the greatest secrets of the Citadel hidden.
This is why they created a species of seemingly benign organic caretakers."

Vigil: "The keepers maintain the Citadels most basic functions. They enable any
species that discovers the Citadel to use it with out understanding it's technology."

Vigil: "Reliance of the keepers ensures no other species will ever discover the Citadel's true nature.
Not until the relay is activated and the Reapers invade"

later on in the conversation Shep & Vigil talk about the Prothean researchers...

Vigil: "When the researchers woke, they realized the Prothean species was doomed.
There were only a dozen individuals left, far too few to sustain a viable population."

Vigil: "Yet they vowed to find someway to stop the Reapers from returning.
A way to break the cycle forever. And they knew the keepers where the key."

Shepard asks, why is Saren trying to find the Conduit?

Vigil: "The Conduit gives him access to the Citadel and the keepers."

Vigil: "The keepers are controlled by the Citadel. Before each invasion a signal is
sent through the station compeling the keepers to activate the Citadel relay."

Vigil: "After decades of leverish study, the scientist discovered a way to alter this signal.
Using the Conduit, they gained access to the Citadel and made the modifications."

Vigil: "This time, when Sovereign sent the signal to the Citadel, the keepers ignored it.
The Reapers are trapped in dark space."

Does this mean that the Catalyst does not control the citadel as well?

exactly... all the power the catalyst has comes by proxy.

[Kataphrut94]

So many people bring up this business about why the Catalyst couldn't open the Citadel, and it always falls apart thanks to good old Occam and his Razor. Incidentally, why is it called that?

The simplest solution is most probably the correct one. If the Catalyst did not open the Citadel relay and needed Sovereign and Saren to handle that side of things, the logical conclusion is that he couldn't because of the Prothean sabotage. A bricked computer does not magically fix itself, you need a technician for that, which is what Sovereign was.

Modifié par Kataphrut94, 14 août 2012 - 12:23 .

[JPN17]

People trying to make sense out of this are wasting their time. The catalyst did not exist in ME. That's the answer.

[Memnon]

BaladasDemnevanni wrote...

Stornskar wrote...

maaaze wrote...

1)It is unknown how he took control...there are endless possibilities how he could have done this...in my sig. is one possibility.

2)by programming them. by indoctrination. by constructing them this way.

3)Control has not to be direct. if you can change someones goals, you control them by proxy and they can remain independent otherwise.

Catalyst:  No, the Citadel is part of me

Note he doesn't say I am part of the Citadel - to say that something is a part of you implies that you supercede it. If he doesn't have control of the Citadel, how does he lower the elevator to bring Shepard up. He has some control, he has to. If he has no control over a simple signal on the Catalyst, well that's a pretty poor AI ... 

Shepard: I need to stop the Reapers. Do you know how I can do that?
Catalyst:  Perhaps. I control the Reapers, they are my solution

This is not ambiguous. This is not the Catalyst saying, "I control them by proxy ... I just set their programming and turned them loose" etc. He says "I control the Reapers." Period. Why are people interpreting things that are completely counter to what he actually says?

To add to this, what really breaks the Catalyst is the fact that we see less accomplished VIs and AIs with greater functionality (Ex: EDI's ability to control the Normandy airlocks, etc). Why can't the Catalyst activate the Citadel relay, thus negating the need for the keepers? As far as we know, there is no explanation for this seemingly straightforward ability.

A rogue VI on the moon was able to take control of turrets and all of the assault drones within the bunkers ... we are imagining some imposing restrictions on the oldest, most advanced AI in the galaxy when there are rudimentary VIs that have more power than he does. Maybe we should have just had a VI take over for the Catalyst ...

[KevTheGamer]

Genetic Destiny wrote...

Funkdrspot wrote...

The citadel is part of the catalyst, the protheans hacked the citadel signal that controlled the keepers, the protheans thought the keepers were the ones who opened the relay to dark space but it was really the catalyst, thus the protheans REALLY hacked the catalyst into ignoring his own singla to get out of snooze mode and start the cycle.

That doesn't completely add up, since the catalyst is the reapers collective intelligence and if he was asleep, Sovereign would be too.

If this is valid then the catalyst is even more laughable than before.

apparently Soverign was asleep for long periods of time only to awake to see how things were evolving and then going back into deep sleep. It only makes the hole deeper 

[Memnon]

JPN17 wrote...

People trying to make sense out of this are wasting their time. The catalyst did not exist in ME. That's the answer.

How I wish this could be true 

[AsheraII]

tyrvas wrote...

This thread NEEDS the ONE and ONLY................ VIGIL!

Shepard asks about the Citadel as a Relay....

Vigil: "The Reapers are careful to keep the greatest secrets of the Citadel hidden.
This is why they created a species of seemingly benign organic caretakers."

Vigil: "The keepers maintain the Citadels most basic functions. They enable any
species that discovers the Citadel to use it with out understanding it's technology."

Vigil: "Reliance of the keepers ensures no other species will ever discover the Citadel's true nature.
Not until the relay is activated and the Reapers invade"

later on in the conversation Shep & Vigil talk about the Prothean researchers...

Vigil: "When the researchers woke, they realized the Prothean species was doomed.
There were only a dozen individuals left, far too few to sustain a viable population."

Vigil: "Yet they vowed to find someway to stop the Reapers from returning.
A way to break the cycle forever. And they knew the keepers where the key."

Shepard asks, why is Saren trying to find the Conduit?

Vigil: "The Conduit gives him access to the Citadel and the keepers."

Vigil: "The keepers are controlled by the Citadel. Before each invasion a signal is
sent through the station compeling the keepers to activate the Citadel relay."

Vigil: "After decades of leverish study, the scientist discovered a way to alter this signal.
Using the Conduit, they gained access to the Citadel and made the modifications."

Vigil: "This time, when Sovereign sent the signal to the Citadel, the keepers ignored it.
The Reapers are trapped in dark space."

You could've just said that ME1 already explained why this wasn't possible, and make the OP play through ME1 to find out. Despite all the choices and decisions and Saren and everything, the conversation with Vigil was probably the most important and revealing thing to happen during that game, the knowledge learned proving itself throughout the rest of the series. The Sovereign convo was interesting too, but you have to keep in mind how biased Sovereign was in the first place, and seperate the very few facts he actually gives from all the opinions.

[Jonata]

KevWestBeats.com wrote...

Jonata wrote...

90% of questions like these about the Catalyst can be solved once you realize that the Catalyst is the collective consciousness of the Reapers. He was not there during the previous games, waiting for the Reapers, because he IS the Reapers.

He is like Legion, but instead of 1128 Geth programs, his Consensus contains the consciences of the entire Reaper Fleet.

I agee but aren't the Keepers Reapers as well? Husks, Collectors, Cannibals, Banshees, Brutes ect are all Reapers right?

Mh, I don't think so. The Keepers are programmed to do estabilished actions and they are probably not even self-aware, while Husks, Collectors and all the other Ground Forces are merely weapons, completely under the control of the Reapers. 

They probably do not have a voice in the Consensus, they just respond to the Reapers' orders/signals.

zambot wrote...

So you're saying that he did nto exist until the reapers all came into the galaxy from deep space, and "uploaded" (for lack of a better term) themselves to the Citadel?

Clearly the writers did not think of the Catalyst until after ME2 was complete, but your explanation makes a good deal of sense.

 

Yes, I think that in order for the Catalyst to appear before Shepard, the Reapers uploaded their consciencies to the Citadel creating a Consensus-minded being.

Modifié par Jonata, 14 août 2012 - 01:51 .

[teh DRUMPf!!]

 The Protheans outfoxed it.

The Catalyst is a primitive.

[BigBadMammogram]

Jonata wrote...

Yes, I think that in order for the Catalyst to appear before Shepard, the Reapers uploaded their consciencies to the Citadel creating a Consensus-minded being.

Is there anything in the game to support this idea? Or did you just make this up and realized you liked the idea? (which makes you a better writer than the people at bioware)