99 réponses à ce sujet

[hoodaticus]

I have been screaming this since April!

[hoodaticus]

AsheraII wrote...

tyrvas wrote...

This thread NEEDS the ONE and ONLY................ VIGIL!

Shepard asks about the Citadel as a Relay....

Vigil: "The Reapers are careful to keep the greatest secrets of the Citadel hidden.
This is why they created a species of seemingly benign organic caretakers."

Vigil: "The keepers maintain the Citadels most basic functions. They enable any
species that discovers the Citadel to use it with out understanding it's technology."

Vigil: "Reliance of the keepers ensures no other species will ever discover the Citadel's true nature.
Not until the relay is activated and the Reapers invade"

later on in the conversation Shep & Vigil talk about the Prothean researchers...

Vigil: "When the researchers woke, they realized the Prothean species was doomed.
There were only a dozen individuals left, far too few to sustain a viable population."

Vigil: "Yet they vowed to find someway to stop the Reapers from returning.
A way to break the cycle forever. And they knew the keepers where the key."

Shepard asks, why is Saren trying to find the Conduit?

Vigil: "The Conduit gives him access to the Citadel and the keepers."

Vigil: "The keepers are controlled by the Citadel. Before each invasion a signal is
sent through the station compeling the keepers to activate the Citadel relay."

Vigil: "After decades of leverish study, the scientist discovered a way to alter this signal.
Using the Conduit, they gained access to the Citadel and made the modifications."

Vigil: "This time, when Sovereign sent the signal to the Citadel, the keepers ignored it.
The Reapers are trapped in dark space."

You could've just said that ME1 already explained why this wasn't possible, and make the OP play through ME1 to find out. Despite all the choices and decisions and Saren and everything, the conversation with Vigil was probably the most important and revealing thing to happen during that game, the knowledge learned proving itself throughout the rest of the series. The Sovereign convo was interesting too, but you have to keep in mind how biased Sovereign was in the first place, and seperate the very few facts he actually gives from all the opinions.

Vigil also said that AFTER the sabotage the keepers "only respond to the commands of the Citadel."  If the Citadel is part of the collective consciousness of the Reapers, then it remains to be explained why the Citadel did not order the Keepers to activate the relay.

[BigBadMammogram]

The explanation is simple. Bioware forgot about ME1.

[FlyingSquirrel]

Anybody else wonder what exactly the keepers are doing in the tunnel with all the dead bodies at the end of ME3? At first I thought perhaps the Reapers and/or the Catalyst had re-established control and they were helping "process" the dead humans, but later I wondered if they were simply doing what they always do, i.e. performing various "maintenance" tasks around the Citadel and ignoring pretty much everything that was happening around them.

[Geneaux486]

Something else I noticed about the Catalyst's dialogue is that he said "The same way we left your people alive the last time we were hear." "We" and not "they", meaning it's possible that though the Citadel is the Catalyst's home, he is only there when the Reapers are present in the galaxy.

[Jonata]

BigBadMammogram wrote...

Jonata wrote...

Yes, I think that in order for the Catalyst to appear before Shepard, the Reapers uploaded their consciencies to the Citadel creating a Consensus-minded being.

Is there anything in the game to support this idea? Or did you just make this up and realized you liked the idea? (which makes you a better writer than the people at bioware)

No, I did not make this up and I actually admire BioWare's writing efforts.

The Catalyst speak on behalf of the Reapers, he uses "we" just like Legion does when talking about what the Reapers did during precedent cycles and IIRC he actually specifically states "I am the collective consciousness of the Reapers" during the EC dialogue. 

Modifié par Jonata, 14 août 2012 - 02:26 .

[Ticonderoga117]

BigBadMammogram wrote...

The explanation is simple. Bioware forgot about ME1.

Or simply didn't care.

Geneaux486 wrote...
Something else I noticed about the
Catalyst's dialogue is that he said "The same way we left your people
alive the last time we were hear." "We" and not "they", meaning it's
possible that though the Citadel is the Catalyst's home, he is only
there when the Reapers are present in the galaxy.

He controls them, why wouldn't it be "we"?
He's all of them and then some.

[Geneaux486]

Ticonderoga117 wrote...
He controls them, why wouldn't it be "we"?
He's all of them and then some.

Not denying that, saying it's possible that he comes and goes with them as opposed to always being on the Citadel.

[Ticonderoga117]

Geneaux486 wrote...
Not denying that, saying it's possible that he comes and goes with them as opposed to always being on the Citadel.

Fair enough, but it seems kinda hard pressed for it to make sense.
Granted, even the Reapers don't make sense for the majority of ME3 so who knows.

[Geneaux486]

Ticonderoga117 wrote...

Geneaux486 wrote...
Not denying that, saying it's possible that he comes and goes with them as opposed to always being on the Citadel.

Fair enough, but it seems kinda hard pressed for it to make sense.
Granted, even the Reapers don't make sense for the majority of ME3 so who knows.

I'd argue that they don't make less sense in ME3 than they ever did before.  To me it'd make more sense if the Catalyst came and went with the Reapers, or at least lay dormant while they were in Dark Space.

[Memnon]

The Citadel is the heart of galactic civilization, the headquarters for the Reapers' aggregate consciousness, and the primary focus of the Reaper invasion. That the leader of the Reapers - who even says that the Citadel is a part of him - has no control whatsoever is simply beyond disbelief ...

Modifié par Stornskar, 14 août 2012 - 01:17 .

[BaladasDemnevanni]

Kataphrut94 wrote...

So many people bring up this business about why the Catalyst couldn't open the Citadel, and it always falls apart thanks to good old Occam and his Razor. Incidentally, why is it called that?

The simplest solution is most probably the correct one. If the Catalyst did not open the Citadel relay and needed Sovereign and Saren to handle that side of things, the logical conclusion is that he couldn't because of the Prothean sabotage. A bricked computer does not magically fix itself, you need a technician for that, which is what Sovereign was.

The Prothean Sabotage is never used to alter the Citadel, far as we are told. They modified the Keepers, which isn't relevant, since the question is: why were the Keepers ever necessary in the first place? We're not told what's so special about the activation of a relay that an AI, with its enhanced functionality, couldn't do it, but a physical body (the Keepers) are necessary for.

[Jonata]

It is curious how me and some other people are writing down some perfectly coherent explanation without making up our own headcanon, but people prefer to agree with those who just say "the Catalyst just do not make sense. F*** everything".

[Ghurshog]

KevWestBeats.com wrote...

 It doesn't make sense. Maybe we will get more DLC with info on the keepers. 

Plot hole is a plot hole.

[tyrvas]

hoodaticus wrote...

AsheraII wrote...

tyrvas wrote...

This thread NEEDS the ONE and ONLY................ VIGIL!

Shepard asks about the Citadel as a Relay....

Vigil: "The Reapers are careful to keep the greatest secrets of the Citadel hidden.
This is why they created a species of seemingly benign organic caretakers."

Vigil: "The keepers maintain the Citadels most basic functions. They enable any
species that discovers the Citadel to use it with out understanding it's technology."

Vigil: "Reliance of the keepers ensures no other species will ever discover the Citadel's true nature.
Not until the relay is activated and the Reapers invade"

later on in the conversation Shep & Vigil talk about the Prothean researchers...

Vigil: "When the researchers woke, they realized the Prothean species was doomed.
There were only a dozen individuals left, far too few to sustain a viable population."

Vigil: "Yet they vowed to find someway to stop the Reapers from returning.
A way to break the cycle forever. And they knew the keepers where the key."

Shepard asks, why is Saren trying to find the Conduit?

Vigil: "The Conduit gives him access to the Citadel and the keepers."

Vigil: "The keepers are controlled by the Citadel. Before each invasion a signal is
sent through the station compeling the keepers to activate the Citadel relay."

Vigil: "After decades of leverish study, the scientist discovered a way to alter this signal.
Using the Conduit, they gained access to the Citadel and made the modifications."

Vigil: "This time, when Sovereign sent the signal to the Citadel, the keepers ignored it.
The Reapers are trapped in dark space."

You could've just said that ME1 already explained why this wasn't possible, and make the OP play through ME1 to find out. Despite all the choices and decisions and Saren and everything, the conversation with Vigil was probably the most important and revealing thing to happen during that game, the knowledge learned proving itself throughout the rest of the series. The Sovereign convo was interesting too, but you have to keep in mind how biased Sovereign was in the first place, and seperate the very few facts he actually gives from all the opinions.

Vigil also said that AFTER the sabotage the keepers "only respond to the commands of the Citadel."  If the Citadel is part of the collective consciousness of the Reapers, then it remains to be explained why the Citadel did not order the Keepers to activate the relay.

ok going to add more VIGIL for you...

Shepard can now ask "How can they come back?"
Shepard: "Saren must have some plan to undo everything you did."

Vigil: "The one you call Saren will use the Conduit to bypass the Citadel's defences.
Once inside, he will transfer control of the station to Sovereign."

Vigil: "Sovereign will then override the Citadel's systems and manually open the relay.
And the cycle of extinction will begin again."

Shepard can now ask "Can you help me?"
Shepard: "Is there any way we can stop them?

Vigil: "There's a data file in my console. Take a copy when you go.
When you reach the Citadel's master control unit, upload it to the station."

Vigil: "It will corrupt the Citadel's security protocols and give temporary control over the station.
It might give you a chance against Sovereign."

Later on in the conversation... Shepard can ask about "Keepers"
Shepard: "So when the Reapers created the Citadel, they created the keepers aswell?"

Vigil: "A more likely scenario is that the keepers were one of the early harvested civilizations.
Perhaps the very first"

Vigil: "Perhaps they responded well to indoctrination or the Reapers simply bred them to be obedient.
In any case, they were left behind to operate and maintain the Citadel."

Vigil: "But the keepers are not longer directly controlled by Sovereign or its ilk.
They evolved so that they only respond to the signals emitted by the Citadel itself."

Vigil: "When the Protheans altered the Citadel's signals, they broke Sovereign's hold over the keepers.
Now they are completely harmless."

Shepard can now ask "It explains the Geth"
Shepard: "Sovereign must have realized organic races where difficult to control."

Vigil: "A likely hypothesis.The keepers evolved in an unanticipated direction.
Non-organic servants like the geth would be more predictable."



njoy

edit: typos fixed = everybody makes mistakes [even the Catalyst]

Modifié par tyrvas, 14 août 2012 - 02:39 .

[BaladasDemnevanni]

Jonata wrote...

It is curious how me and some other people are writing down some perfectly coherent explanation without making up our own headcanon, but people prefer to agree with those who just say "the Catalyst just do not make sense. F*** everything".

Headcanon began with the conclusion that the Catalyst didn't appear on the Citadel until the Reapers took control.

1)"The Citadel is a part of me. It's my home". The idea that the Catalyst was brought to the Citadel is never stated, nor implied, in the narrative.

2) That the Protheans/other cycles considered the Catalyst in the creation of the Crucible and that it was housed inside the Citadel. We're finally told that the AI is itself the Catalyst, meaning that he was taken into account in the creation of the Crucible.

3) The Catalyst does not exist in the same manner as Legion. Legion has no control over the Geth- he's a mobile platform. The Catalyst is stated to pretty definitively control the Reapers.

Modifié par BaladasDemnevanni, 14 août 2012 - 02:18 .

[Gibb_Shepard]

Adanu wrote...

The catalyst doesn't actually 'inhabit' the Citadel. The catalyst is the collective intelligence of ALL reapers. It's unclear how this works yet.

Well the game certainly didn't give this information. Where did you get it?

The game explains that the Catalyst is actually a rogue AI program whom created the Reapers from his former organic masters. So you've either misinterpreted it, or there's been some twittering going on that i haven't heard of.

[Lord Goose]

The only explanation which I can make is need to keep everything under wraps. If the Catalyst had direct control the Citadel, he would have been discovered, sooner or later, since people would knew about hyper-advanced AI, which maintains the Citadel.

[Mazebook]

tyrvas wrote...

hoodaticus wrote...

AsheraII wrote...

tyrvas wrote...

This thread NEEDS the ONE and ONLY................ VIGIL!

Shepard asks about the Citadel as a Relay....

Vigil: "The Reapers are careful to keep the greatest secrets of the Citadel hidden.
This is why they created a species of seemingly benign organic caretakers."

Vigil: "The keepers maintain the Citadels most basic functions. They enable any
species that discovers the Citadel to use it with out understanding it's technology."

Vigil: "Reliance of the keepers ensures no other species will ever discover the Citadel's true nature.
Not until the relay is activated and the Reapers invade"

later on in the conversation Shep & Vigil talk about the Prothean researchers...

Vigil: "When the researchers woke, they realized the Prothean species was doomed.
There were only a dozen individuals left, far too few to sustain a viable population."

Vigil: "Yet they vowed to find someway to stop the Reapers from returning.
A way to break the cycle forever. And they knew the keepers where the key."

Shepard asks, why is Saren trying to find the Conduit?

Vigil: "The Conduit gives him access to the Citadel and the keepers."

Vigil: "The keepers are controlled by the Citadel. Before each invasion a signal is
sent through the station compeling the keepers to activate the Citadel relay."

Vigil: "After decades of leverish study, the scientist discovered a way to alter this signal.
Using the Conduit, they gained access to the Citadel and made the modifications."

Vigil: "This time, when Sovereign sent the signal to the Citadel, the keepers ignored it.
The Reapers are trapped in dark space."

You could've just said that ME1 already explained why this wasn't possible, and make the OP play through ME1 to find out. Despite all the choices and decisions and Saren and everything, the conversation with Vigil was probably the most important and revealing thing to happen during that game, the knowledge learned proving itself throughout the rest of the series. The Sovereign convo was interesting too, but you have to keep in mind how biased Sovereign was in the first place, and seperate the very few facts he actually gives from all the opinions.

Vigil also said that AFTER the sabotage the keepers "only respond to the commands of the Citadel."  If the Citadel is part of the collective consciousness of the Reapers, then it remains to be explained why the Citadel did not order the Keepers to activate the relay.

ok going to add more VIGIL for you...

Shepard can now ask "How can they come back?"
Shepard: "Saren must have some plan to undo everything you did."

Vigil: "The one you call Saren will use the Conduit to bypass the Citadel's defences.
Once inside, he will transfer control of the station to Sovereign."

Vigil: "Sovereign will then override the Citadel's systems and manually open the relay.
And the cycle of extinction will begin again."

Shepard can now ask "Can you help me?"
Shepard: "Is there any way we can stop them?

Vigil: "There's a data file in my console. Take a copy when you go.
When you reach the Citadel's master control unit, upload it to the station."

Vigil: "It will corrupt the Citadel's security protocols and give temporary control over the station.
It might give you a chance against Sovereign."

Later on in the conversation... Shepard can ask about "Keepers"
Shepard: "So when the Reapers created the Citadel, they created the keepers aswell?"

Vigil: "A more likely scenario is that the keepers were one of the early harvested civilizations.
Perhaps the very first"

Vigil: "Perhaps they responded well to indoctrination or the Reapers simply bred them to be obedient.
In any case, they were left behind to operate and maintain the Citadel."

Vigil: "But the keepers are not longer directly controlled by Sovereign or its ilk.
They evolved so that they only respond to the signals emitted by the Citadel itself."

Vigil: "When the Protheans altered the Citadel's signals, they broke Sovereign's hold over the keepers.
Now they are completely harmless."

Shepard can now ask "It explains the Geth"
Shepard: "Sovereign must have realized organic races where difficult to control."

Vigil: "A likely hypothesis.The keepers evolved in an unanticipated direction.
Non-organic servants like the geth would be more predictable."



njoy

edit: typos fixed = everybody makes mistakes [even the Catalyst]

Thanks.

wow i really have to replay ME 1.
I really beginning to think that the keepers are the true key to understand what happend at the first cycle.

[Masha Potato]

oh my god mass effect plot doesn't make sense? that's news

[RebelTitan428]

but the catalyst is not part of the citadel.

it clearly states "the citadel is part of me"

[El Mito]

Because Bioware. Duh.

[Memnon]

Lord Goose wrote...

The only explanation which I can make is need to keep everything under wraps. If the Catalyst had direct control the Citadel, he would have been discovered, sooner or later, since people would knew about hyper-advanced AI, which maintains the Citadel.

If the Catalyst gives itself away by controlling the Citadel to warp in the Reapers, what does it care if anyone detects it? The entire Reaper fleet is there. It's also established that the Citadel is not well understood, so it should be easy for the Catalyst to perform his tasks discreetly

Regarding the Prothean data file, from the conversation with Vigil:

Vigil: "It will corrupt the Citadel's security protocols and give temporary control over the station.

The file's effect is temporary ...

[tyrvas]

Stornskar wrote...

Lord Goose wrote...

The only explanation which I can make is need to keep everything under wraps. If the Catalyst had direct control the Citadel, he would have been discovered, sooner or later, since people would knew about hyper-advanced AI, which maintains the Citadel.

If the Catalyst gives itself away by controlling the Citadel to warp in the Reapers, what does it care if anyone detects it? The entire Reaper fleet is there. It's also established that the Citadel is not well understood, so it should be easy for the Catalyst to perform his tasks discreetly

Regarding the Prothean data file, from the conversation with Vigil:

Vigil: "It will corrupt the Citadel's security protocols and give temporary control over the station.

The file's effect is temporary ...

...but not for the keepers, they remained modified.

[Memnon]

tyrvas wrote...

Stornskar wrote...

If the Catalyst gives itself away by controlling the Citadel to warp in the Reapers, what does it care if anyone detects it? The entire Reaper fleet is there. It's also established that the Citadel is not well understood, so it should be easy for the Catalyst to perform his tasks discreetly

Regarding the Prothean data file, from the conversation with Vigil:

Vigil: "It will corrupt the Citadel's security protocols and give temporary control over the station.

The file's effect is temporary ...

...but not for the keepers, they remained modified.

Correct - but that just means that they don't respond to the signal ... if the Catalyst has any control whatsoever - and engaging the lift implies that it does - then it should be a trivial task for an AI to repair the damaged signal