99 réponses à ce sujet

[tyrvas]

Stornskar wrote...

tyrvas wrote...

Stornskar wrote...

If the Catalyst gives itself away by controlling the Citadel to warp in the Reapers, what does it care if anyone detects it? The entire Reaper fleet is there. It's also established that the Citadel is not well understood, so it should be easy for the Catalyst to perform his tasks discreetly

Regarding the Prothean data file, from the conversation with Vigil:

Vigil: "It will corrupt the Citadel's security protocols and give temporary control over the station.

The file's effect is temporary ...

...but not for the keepers, they remained modified.

Correct - but that just means that they don't respond to the signal ... if the Catalyst has any control whatsoever - and engaging the lift implies that it does - then it should be a trivial task for an AI to repair the damaged signal

what if the catalyst ai only runs/appears when the Citadel Mass Relay is activated.
the keepers haven't done so. Sovereign tried manually but failed.
catalyst did not get the alarm, this time round.

[Mazebook]

tyrvas wrote...

Stornskar wrote...

tyrvas wrote...

Stornskar wrote...

If the Catalyst gives itself away by controlling the Citadel to warp in the Reapers, what does it care if anyone detects it? The entire Reaper fleet is there. It's also established that the Citadel is not well understood, so it should be easy for the Catalyst to perform his tasks discreetly

Regarding the Prothean data file, from the conversation with Vigil:

Vigil: "It will corrupt the Citadel's security protocols and give temporary control over the station.

The file's effect is temporary ...

...but not for the keepers, they remained modified.

Correct - but that just means that they don't respond to the signal ... if the Catalyst has any control whatsoever - and engaging the lift implies that it does - then it should be a trivial task for an AI to repair the damaged signal

what if the catalyst ai only runs/appears when the Citadel Mass Relay is activated.
the keepers haven't done so. Sovereign tried manually but failed.
catalyst did not get the alarm, this time round.

why do you keep insiting that the catalyst activates the lift?...it does make no sense what so ever.

He did not prevent shepard from opening the arms, he did not lift him up. he has no control over the keepers anymore.

What in the game would suggest otherwise?

[Memnon]

maaaze wrote...


why do you keep insiting that the catalyst activates the lift?...it does make no sense what so ever.

He did not prevent shepard from opening the arms, he did not lift him up. he has no control over the keepers anymore.

What in the game would suggest otherwise?

What the heck else would activate the lift? You're right, it makes no sense

[Mazebook]

Stornskar wrote...

maaaze wrote...


why do you keep insiting that the catalyst activates the lift?...it does make no sense what so ever.

He did not prevent shepard from opening the arms, he did not lift him up. he has no control over the keepers anymore.

What in the game would suggest otherwise?

What the heck else would activate the lift? You're right, it makes no sense

the crucible of course....it powers up certain systems on the citadel...the lift is part of that.

How else should someone get to the crucible after he opened the arms?

[Memnon]

maaaze wrote...

Stornskar wrote...

maaaze wrote...


why do you keep insiting that the catalyst activates the lift?...it does make no sense what so ever.

He did not prevent shepard from opening the arms, he did not lift him up. he has no control over the keepers anymore.

What in the game would suggest otherwise?

What the heck else would activate the lift? You're right, it makes no sense

the crucible of course....it powers up certain systems on the citadel...the lift is part of that.

How else should someone get to the crucible after he opened the arms?

How is this possible? You are on the Citadel - the platform originates on the Citadel. How would the Crucible know to activate the lift, and why would it be moving from the Citadel to the Crucible?

[Mazebook]

Stornskar wrote...

maaaze wrote...

Stornskar wrote...

maaaze wrote...


why do you keep insiting that the catalyst activates the lift?...it does make no sense what so ever.

He did not prevent shepard from opening the arms, he did not lift him up. he has no control over the keepers anymore.

What in the game would suggest otherwise?

What the heck else would activate the lift? You're right, it makes no sense

the crucible of course....it powers up certain systems on the citadel...the lift is part of that.

How else should someone get to the crucible after he opened the arms?

How is this possible? You are on the Citadel - the platform originates on the Citadel. How would the Crucible know to activate the lift, and why would it be moving from the Citadel to the Crucible?

Well, there is a beam of energy that goes in contact with the citadel. It is pretty easy to imagine that it powers certain systems on the citadel. the lift does not leave the citadel. it goes to the docking point on the citadel.

It is all part of the design of the crucible. The designers knew where the crucible would dock. they knew from where to open the arms. Seems pretty logical to me , that they would construct the crucible in a way , that would power certain systems on the citadel. like the lift. 

[Sky651]

maaaze wrote...

Stornskar wrote...

maaaze wrote...

Stornskar wrote...

maaaze wrote...


why do you keep insiting that the catalyst activates the lift?...it does make no sense what so ever.

He did not prevent shepard from opening the arms, he did not lift him up. he has no control over the keepers anymore.

What in the game would suggest otherwise?

What the heck else would activate the lift? You're right, it makes no sense

the crucible of course....it powers up certain systems on the citadel...the lift is part of that.

How else should someone get to the crucible after he opened the arms?

How is this possible? You are on the Citadel - the platform originates on the Citadel. How would the Crucible know to activate the lift, and why would it be moving from the Citadel to the Crucible?

Well, there is a beam of energy that goes in contact with the citadel. It is pretty easy to imagine that it powers certain systems on the citadel. the lift does not leave the citadel. it goes to the docking point on the citadel.

It is all part of the design of the crucible. The designers knew where the crucible would dock. they knew from where to open the arms. Seems pretty logical to me , that they would construct the crucible in a way , that would power certain systems on the citadel. like the lift. 

Ok. So the crucible powered up the lift.    Why was there a lift there in the first place?  Why, when designubg the citadel, would there be an elevator installed that lead to a device, crucible, that had not been designed yet?

[Dmthoth]

I belive, catalyst just appear, only when reapers arrive at galaxy. Because it is an AI with reeper's network?

[Ithurael]

Let us look at what we know shall we?

The keepers were created to maintain the citadel and respond to the citadel

Soveriegn sent a signal to the keepers when it was ready to start the harvest

We know that the Keepers were the ones that opened the Citadel trap

We know that the protheans altered the keepers so they did not respond to the signal sent from soveriegn

After the sabatoge the keepers only listened to the Citadel itself
"They evolved so they only responded to the signals emitted by the Citadel itself"

ME3:
The Citadel is part of the catalyst (not the other way around)

The Catalyst is a hyper advanced AI that is the compendium of the Reapers

The catalyst can raise and lower platforms in the citadel

The catalyst can control the entire reaper fleet

Speculation:
- The exact power of the catalyst
    - Able to turn off the crucible? (counter: reapers took it out)
    - Able to control the keepers as they respond to the citadel

All our arguments hinge on the power of the catalyst. I personally believe Bioware f*ck this one up. but that is me.

[Mazebook]

Sky651 wrote...

maaaze wrote...

Stornskar wrote...

maaaze wrote...

Stornskar wrote...

maaaze wrote...


why do you keep insiting that the catalyst activates the lift?...it does make no sense what so ever.

He did not prevent shepard from opening the arms, he did not lift him up. he has no control over the keepers anymore.

What in the game would suggest otherwise?

What the heck else would activate the lift? You're right, it makes no sense

the crucible of course....it powers up certain systems on the citadel...the lift is part of that.

How else should someone get to the crucible after he opened the arms?

How is this possible? You are on the Citadel - the platform originates on the Citadel. How would the Crucible know to activate the lift, and why would it be moving from the Citadel to the Crucible?

Well, there is a beam of energy that goes in contact with the citadel. It is pretty easy to imagine that it powers certain systems on the citadel. the lift does not leave the citadel. it goes to the docking point on the citadel.

It is all part of the design of the crucible. The designers knew where the crucible would dock. they knew from where to open the arms. Seems pretty logical to me , that they would construct the crucible in a way , that would power certain systems on the citadel. like the lift. 

Ok. So the crucible powered up the lift.    Why was there a lift there in the first place?  Why, when designubg the citadel, would there be an elevator installed that lead to a device, crucible, that had not been designed yet?

Why is there a lift to c-sec? why is there a lift to the presidium?  to get people to parts of the citadel. maybe for maintanace of the tube or for other stuff. Who knows? why is it important ? the lift is just there for the same reason there is a console before the lift.

[sistersafetypin]

Thaa_solon wrote...

Because plot broken

[JBPBRC]

Cerbrus operative wrote...

 

Oh the sheer blasphemy of this image.

Maximus is turning in his grave.

[Ticonderoga117]

maaaze wrote...
Why is there a lift to c-sec? why is there a lift to the presidium?  to get people to parts of the citadel. maybe for maintanace of the tube or for other stuff. Who knows? why is it important ? the lift is just there for the same reason there is a console before the lift.

But it's not marked. It's seemlessly part of the floor. Plus, no one has ever been in that part of the Citadel.
Shepard doesn't open the arms into thier firing positions, that's after he goes out for the count.

The Catalyst has control of the Citadel's functions, and it doesn't make sense because that's not what the writers were aiming for there. Plot broken and bad symbolism is bad.


EDIT: Bloody quote tags...

Modifié par Ticonderoga117, 14 août 2012 - 09:42 .

[Lennyoh]

Because heck with making ME3 fit the trilogy, our EA overlords told us to make it stick out like a sore thumb so the CoD and GoW folks can buy this game and give us more money!

[tyrvas]

Ithurael wrote...

Let us look at what we know shall we?

The keepers were created to maintain the citadel and respond to the citadel

Soveriegn sent a signal to the keepers when it was ready to start the harvest

We know that the Keepers were the ones that opened the Citadel trap

We know that the protheans altered the keepers so they did not respond to the signal sent from soveriegn

After the sabatoge the keepers only listened to the Citadel itself
"They evolved so they only responded to the signals emitted by the Citadel itself"

ME3:
The Citadel is part of the catalyst (not the other way around)

The Catalyst is a hyper advanced AI that is the compendium of the Reapers

The catalyst can raise and lower platforms in the citadel

The catalyst can control the entire reaper fleet

Speculation:
- The exact power of the catalyst
    - Able to turn off the crucible? (counter: reapers took it out)
    - Able to control the keepers as they respond to the citadel

All our arguments hinge on the power of the catalyst. I personally believe Bioware f*ck this one up. but that is me.

Nobody in Shep's cycle knew the Citadel was a Mass Relay or trap only Vigil the Prothean VI,
who knows what other secrets it hides, no one.

The keepers maintain and run the Citadel, which is part of the Catalyst.

What if the Catalyst is on 'standby mode' and only operates when the Citadel Mass Relay is activated.
The keepers haven't done so, they are modified to ignore the signal which makes them activate relay. 
Sovereign tried to activate the mass relay manually but failed.

Catalyst is still on standby mode, waiting for Mass Relay to be activated, which in turn alerts it, Reaper Cycle GO.

Until one day the Crucible is attached to the Citadel station it's purpose to use the Catalyst, which is part of the Citadel.
Remember the Catalyst is the final and most important component that the Crucible required.

[BigBadMammogram]

tyrvas wrote...

Ithurael wrote...

Let us look at what we know shall we?

The keepers were created to maintain the citadel and respond to the citadel

Soveriegn sent a signal to the keepers when it was ready to start the harvest

We know that the Keepers were the ones that opened the Citadel trap

We know that the protheans altered the keepers so they did not respond to the signal sent from soveriegn

After the sabatoge the keepers only listened to the Citadel itself
"They evolved so they only responded to the signals emitted by the Citadel itself"

ME3:
The Citadel is part of the catalyst (not the other way around)

The Catalyst is a hyper advanced AI that is the compendium of the Reapers

The catalyst can raise and lower platforms in the citadel

The catalyst can control the entire reaper fleet

Speculation:
- The exact power of the catalyst
    - Able to turn off the crucible? (counter: reapers took it out)
    - Able to control the keepers as they respond to the citadel

All our arguments hinge on the power of the catalyst. I personally believe Bioware f*ck this one up. but that is me.

Nobody in Shep's cycle knew the Citadel was a Mass Relay or trap only Vigil the Prothean VI,
who knows what other secrets it hides, no one.

The keepers maintain and run the Citadel, which is part of the Catalyst.

What if the Catalyst is on 'standby mode' and only operates when the Citadel Mass Relay is activated.
The keepers haven't done so, they are modified to ignore the signal which makes them activate relay. 
Sovereign tried to activate the mass relay manually but failed.

Catalyst is still on standby mode, waiting for Mass Relay to be activated, which in turn alerts it, Reaper Cycle GO.

Until one day the Crucible is attached to the Citadel station it's purpose to use the Catalyst, which is part of the Citadel.
Remember the Catalyst is the final and most important component that the Crucible required.

Saying that the catalyst is in standby mode doesnt help the story at all. Its a terrible idea. Its one giant gaping huge vulnerability that could easily be fixed by not going into standby mode, and observing the galaxy to determine the best time to invade. So all you've done is change it from a gaping plothole to a really dumb plotline.

Just in case that came across as a bit offensive, it wasnt directed to you. I know your not the only person to come up with that idea, and I'm not trying to call you stupid or anything like that. I'm just saying that putting the catalyst in standby mode is equally bad writing.

[Tritium315]

maaaze wrote...

Why is there a lift to c-sec? why is there a lift to the presidium?  to get people to parts of the citadel. maybe for maintanace of the tube or for other stuff. Who knows? why is it important ? the lift is just there for the same reason there is a console before the lift.

So why does the lift rise up at the time that it does? Coincidence?

[Ithurael]

tyrvas wrote...


Nobody in Shep's cycle knew the Citadel was a Mass Relay or trap only Vigil the Prothean VI,
who knows what other secrets it hides, no one.

The keepers maintain and run the Citadel, which is part of the Catalyst.

What if the Catalyst is on 'standby mode' and only operates when the Citadel Mass Relay is activated.
The keepers haven't done so, they are modified to ignore the signal which makes them activate relay. 
Sovereign tried to activate the mass relay manually but failed.

Catalyst is still on standby mode, waiting for Mass Relay to be activated, which in turn alerts it, Reaper Cycle GO.

Until one day the Crucible is attached to the Citadel station it's purpose to use the Catalyst, which is part of the Citadel.
Remember the Catalyst is the final and most important component that the Crucible required.

What if the Catalyst is on 'standby mode' and only operates when the Citadel Mass Relay is activated.
= Speculations!!!

How does a master consciousness stay in standby when soveriegn, one of its own, is active? That is like the brain being in a coma but the body moving? (Remeber, catalyst stated that he gave the reapers function and they give him purpose)  ME3 clearly showed that the catalyst controls the reapers (one of the problems that I had with starkid was he did reduce the awesomeness of reapers) but - here is the iffy speculation part - we do not know the extent of his control of the reapers or the citadel. To me, a master consiousness usually has to be running for its components to be running (reapers)

Remember the Catalyst is the final and most important component that the Crucible required.
The Citadel is the most important part for crucible (which we later find that the citadel == catalyst via starkid logic) The reason that crucible needs the citadel is that (as a power source) it would - I think - be able to send the power burst through the relay network (controlled by the citadel...which is also part of the catalyst)

Starkid raises a lot of questions and issues with ME1 lore. The only way to appease them is to use the Speculation cannon or launch into headcanon mode.

[BigBadMammogram]

Ithurael wrote...

tyrvas wrote...


Nobody in Shep's cycle knew the Citadel was a Mass Relay or trap only Vigil the Prothean VI,
who knows what other secrets it hides, no one.

The keepers maintain and run the Citadel, which is part of the Catalyst.

What if the Catalyst is on 'standby mode' and only operates when the Citadel Mass Relay is activated.
The keepers haven't done so, they are modified to ignore the signal which makes them activate relay. 
Sovereign tried to activate the mass relay manually but failed.

Catalyst is still on standby mode, waiting for Mass Relay to be activated, which in turn alerts it, Reaper Cycle GO.

Until one day the Crucible is attached to the Citadel station it's purpose to use the Catalyst, which is part of the Citadel.
Remember the Catalyst is the final and most important component that the Crucible required.

What if the Catalyst is on 'standby mode' and only operates when the Citadel Mass Relay is activated.
= Speculations!!!

How does a master consciousness stay in standby when soveriegn, one of its own, is active? That is like the brain being in a coma but the body moving? (Remeber, catalyst stated that he gave the reapers function and they give him purpose)  ME3 clearly showed that the catalyst controls the reapers (one of the problems that I had with starkid was he did reduce the awesomeness of reapers) but - here is the iffy speculation part - we do not know the extent of his control of the reapers or the citadel. To me, a master consiousness usually has to be running for its components to be running (reapers)

Remember the Catalyst is the final and most important component that the Crucible required.
The Citadel is the most important part for crucible (which we later find that the citadel == catalyst via starkid logic) The reason that crucible needs the citadel is that (as a power source) it would - I think - be able to send the power burst through the relay network (controlled by the citadel...which is also part of the catalyst)

Starkid raises a lot of questions and issues with ME1 lore. The only way to appease them is to use the Speculation cannon or launch into headcanon mode.

Or just admit its bad writing. Thats the easiest way to make all of this make sense.

[Ithurael]

BigBadMammogram wrote...

Or just admit its bad writing. Thats the easiest way to make all of this make sense.

AHHH Yes the "Bad Writing" Theory.

I am sure that is around here somewhere. People keep trying to open that thread but the mods keep closing it for reasons that - I can only speculate - are "beyond our comprehension" lol

[tyrvas]

SO BE IT!

[dreman9999]

Stornskar wrote...

Tryvas - the point about the signal being altered and thus ignored by the Keepers doesn't make as much sense if there is an AI on site, able to analyze and troubleshoot issues. I mean - you would think an AI would know what the signal is supposed to look like, recognize the difference, and say "Hey! Some bastard changed this signal! Well let's just fix that ... "

The point you not gettin git that the citadel was not made for on site AI  troubleshooting. It was made only to be effected from the outside of the system

[dreman9999]

Tritium315 wrote...

maaaze wrote...

Why is there a lift to c-sec? why is there a lift to the presidium?  to get people to parts of the citadel. maybe for maintanace of the tube or for other stuff. Who knows? why is it important ? the lift is just there for the same reason there is a console before the lift.

So why does the lift rise up at the time that it does? Coincidence?

Not that it does this after the crucible is attached.

[Haargel]

Makes me wonder why Saren needed an army to do do, if he just keeped a bit of a low profile, play the Spectre he is.

Go to the the Citadel, wait for Sovereign and let him in.

Aah because of no story !

[7rident]

what I've taken from all this is, the keepers are a subtle means of activating the citadel relay and allowing the reapers to download their collective consciousness into the citadel and forming the catalyst, which isn't present when the reapers aren't in the galaxy. The Prothean sabotage blocks this signal to the keepers.

Though it still doesn't make sense as sovereign is left behind to send the signal, but wouldn't his consciousness be left in the citadel and wouldn't he activate the relay. Rather than send a signal to the keepers to activate the relay.

Also why in ME3 when the second Prothean VI appears he detects the reapers and tries to shutdown stating this cycles at an end. but the crucible needs the catalyst and if the catalyst is only accessible when the reapers are around then of course he is going to detect the reapers. This suggests the catalyst AI is a constant. If that is the case it goes back to the original question. Why would an AI that can control the most advanced forces in the galaxy not be able to activate something as simple as a relay?

Another thing since the AI kid is in control of the reapers wouldn't the crucibles function be just to delete the collective consciousness of the reapers or destroy the citadel thus making the reapers inoperable.