545 réponses à ce sujet

[LucasShark]

This is a pro-ending talking point I want to kill, violently if necessary.

As I understand it, the justification goes something like this:
"The crucible creates new options for the catalyst (how and how these were chosen and who programmed them is left unanswered), but "he can't bring himself to choose" (or somesuch insanity), so he needs Shepard to pick for him."

Wow is that sad.  So a machine who's distinguishing feature (an AI) is the ability to learn, reason and make decisions cannot do one of the 3?  He doesn't even have the "we are conflicted" moment Legion does.

Leaving out all those holes, my MAJOR problem is thus: no, the crucible clearly did NOT "create new options".

How can I know that, simple:
1) It is stated repeatedly that the crucible is effectively a power source, not additonal infrastructure for the citadel or relay network
and 2) it isn't the thing doing the work here.

2 is the big one: the crucible is NOT the thing generating this spacwave of space magic, it is the citadel and the relay network.  Which means they had at least some of this functionality all along.  Since the crucible is an object which we can see does not span the entirety of the citadel, it is not the thing doing the important work here.

Let's take a wi-fi transmitter for example: we can boost the signal with power, we can modulate the signal through programming, but we can't exactly make a pie plate work as a wi-fi hotspot, well save for extensive tinkering.

[Elite Midget]

You imply the Starchild can learn or reason either.

[Hackulator]

I'd respond, but tbh I'm just too tired of dealing with arguments that aren't actually arguments as opposed to just rants of an opinion.

[CINCTuchanka]

"The Crucible changed me created new....possibiltiea. But I can't make them happen."

I will just leave this here.

[LucasShark]

Elite Midget wrote...

You imply the Starchild can learn or reason either.

Well then he isn't much of an artificial intelligence then is he...

Wait: given the fact he uses circular logic and a massive logical falicy without catching it... yueah I'd say he's a pretty bad AI all arround.

[LucasShark]

CINCTuchanka wrote...

"The Crucible changed me created new....possibiltiea. But I can't make them happen."

I will just leave this here.

A) you're an ass for using "I'll just leave this here"
so an AI functionally tied into the very device can't make it work?

[Ticonderoga117]

CINCTuchanka wrote...

"The Crucible changed me created new....possibiltiea. But I can't make them happen."

I will just leave this here.

"The Crucible is little more than a power source." - GlowBoy

[Adanu]

A power source that gave him new options. IT. CREATED. NEW. OPTIONS.

You whiners are just trying to pick apart every little thing even if IN GAME DIRECTLY CONTRIDICTS you.

[CINCTuchanka]

Why does the Catalyst let you blow him up in Destroy? If someone can explain how the Crucible didn't change the Catalyst while still allowing for the Destroy option I would be much obliged.

[LucasShark]

Adanu wrote...

A power source that gave him new options. IT. CREATED. NEW. OPTIONS.

You whiners are just trying to pick apart every little thing even if IN GAME DIRECTLY CONTRIDICTS you.

Exactly how is it "whining" to point out that said dialogue makes no sense given other dialogue and the visuals we are shown?

That's called holding writers to a basic standard.

If a story makes no sense logically, then it no longer works as a story.  If it were revealed in the last scene of Star Wars VI that Luke was a horse all this time and we just could never tell, then this is not a functioning story anymore because logically it makes no sense.  Likewise if it is shown that the Emperor is in the throne room while simaltainously being on a star destroyer in orbit, this also makes no sense and the story no longer works.

Modifié par LucasShark, 13 août 2012 - 05:43 .

[Ticonderoga117]

Adanu wrote...

A power source that gave him new options. IT. CREATED. NEW. OPTIONS.

You whiners are just trying to pick apart every little thing even if IN GAME DIRECTLY CONTRIDICTS you.

The Crucible is a big battery. If it was more than that, then why do we need the Citadel? We could just use the Crucible in every system as we move through it.

Oh, that's right, the Citadel has all the options, BECAUSE THE CRUCIBLE IS JUST A BATTERY!

CINCTuchanka wrote...
Why does the Catalyst let you blow him
up in Destroy? If someone can explain how the Crucible didn't change
the Catalyst while still allowing for the Destroy option I would be much
obliged.

Because it still solves his "problem" if only temporarily.
Also, he's stupid. Is any other reason needed?

[D24O]

Adanu wrote...

A power source that gave him new options. IT. CREATED. NEW. OPTIONS.

You whiners are just trying to pick apart every little thing even if IN GAME DIRECTLY CONTRIDICTS you.

I don't see that. Its a battery, it amplified what was already there to create "better" versions of the already existing facets of his solution.

[Fawx9]

Adanu wrote...

A power source that gave him new options. IT. CREATED. NEW. OPTIONS.

You whiners are just trying to pick apart every little thing even if IN GAME DIRECTLY CONTRIDICTS you.

Options that were built directly into the CITADEL.

[Samtheman63]

Ticonderoga117 wrote...

Adanu wrote...

A power source that gave him new options. IT. CREATED. NEW. OPTIONS.

You whiners are just trying to pick apart every little thing even if IN GAME DIRECTLY CONTRIDICTS you.

The Crucible is a big battery. If it was more than that, then why do we need the Citadel? We could just use the Crucible in every system as we move through it.

Oh, that's right, the Citadel has all the options, BECAUSE THE CRUCIBLE IS JUST A BATTERY!

Which opens up the new options

If you have a torch but no battery, you cant turn in it.  Put a battery in and it opens up the possibiilty of you turning it on

[Fawx9]

Samtheman63 wrote...

Ticonderoga117 wrote...

Adanu wrote...

A power source that gave him new options. IT. CREATED. NEW. OPTIONS.

You whiners are just trying to pick apart every little thing even if IN GAME DIRECTLY CONTRIDICTS you.

The Crucible is a big battery. If it was more than that, then why do we need the Citadel? We could just use the Crucible in every system as we move through it.

Oh, that's right, the Citadel has all the options, BECAUSE THE CRUCIBLE IS JUST A BATTERY!

Which opens up the new options

If you have a torch but no battery, you cant turn in it.  Put a battery in and it opens up the possibiilty of you turning it on

Which makes the star brat look even worse as apparently he couldn't build a battery in order to get his super dooper green magic a million years ago.

[LucasShark]

Samtheman63 wrote...

Ticonderoga117 wrote...

Adanu wrote...

A power source that gave him new options. IT. CREATED. NEW. OPTIONS.

You whiners are just trying to pick apart every little thing even if IN GAME DIRECTLY CONTRIDICTS you.

The Crucible is a big battery. If it was more than that, then why do we need the Citadel? We could just use the Crucible in every system as we move through it.

Oh, that's right, the Citadel has all the options, BECAUSE THE CRUCIBLE IS JUST A BATTERY!

Which opens up the new options

If you have a torch but no battery, you cant turn in it.  Put a battery in and it opens up the possibiilty of you turning it on

Yes: but the battery didn't create the bulb, wire or switch did it?

[Samtheman63]

LucasShark wrote...

Samtheman63 wrote...

Ticonderoga117 wrote...

Adanu wrote...

A power source that gave him new options. IT. CREATED. NEW. OPTIONS.

You whiners are just trying to pick apart every little thing even if IN GAME DIRECTLY CONTRIDICTS you.

The Crucible is a big battery. If it was more than that, then why do we need the Citadel? We could just use the Crucible in every system as we move through it.

Oh, that's right, the Citadel has all the options, BECAUSE THE CRUCIBLE IS JUST A BATTERY!

Which opens up the new options

If you have a torch but no battery, you cant turn in it.  Put a battery in and it opens up the possibiilty of you turning it on

Yes: but the battery didn't create the bulb, wire or switch did it?

no it didn't but thats not what im saying

it creates the possibilty for it to be used

[LucasShark]

Samtheman63 wrote...

LucasShark wrote...

Samtheman63 wrote...

Ticonderoga117 wrote...

Adanu wrote...

A power source that gave him new options. IT. CREATED. NEW. OPTIONS.

You whiners are just trying to pick apart every little thing even if IN GAME DIRECTLY CONTRIDICTS you.

The Crucible is a big battery. If it was more than that, then why do we need the Citadel? We could just use the Crucible in every system as we move through it.

Oh, that's right, the Citadel has all the options, BECAUSE THE CRUCIBLE IS JUST A BATTERY!

Which opens up the new options

If you have a torch but no battery, you cant turn in it.  Put a battery in and it opens up the possibiilty of you turning it on

Yes: but the battery didn't create the bulb, wire or switch did it?

no it didn't but thats not what im saying

it creates the possibilty for it to be used

BUT: you admit the infrastructure to facilitate the light coming on in presence of the battery ALREADY EXISTS do you not?  Ergo: it does not "create new options", it allows sufficient power for them to be used, the options already exist in hardware form.

[LucasShark]

Fawx9 wrote...

Samtheman63 wrote...

Ticonderoga117 wrote...

Adanu wrote...

A power source that gave him new options. IT. CREATED. NEW. OPTIONS.

You whiners are just trying to pick apart every little thing even if IN GAME DIRECTLY CONTRIDICTS you.

The Crucible is a big battery. If it was more than that, then why do we need the Citadel? We could just use the Crucible in every system as we move through it.

Oh, that's right, the Citadel has all the options, BECAUSE THE CRUCIBLE IS JUST A BATTERY!

Which opens up the new options

If you have a torch but no battery, you cant turn in it.  Put a battery in and it opens up the possibiilty of you turning it on

Which makes the star brat look even worse as apparently he couldn't build a battery in order to get his super dooper green magic a million years ago.

Never mind a battery: the citadel was orbiting a bloody star, if he can build multi-kilometre relays all over the universe he's got a near inexaustable power source a mere few hundred thousand kilometres away! 

[Samtheman63]

LucasShark wrote...

Samtheman63 wrote...

LucasShark wrote...

Samtheman63 wrote...

Ticonderoga117 wrote...

Adanu wrote...

A power source that gave him new options. IT. CREATED. NEW. OPTIONS.

You whiners are just trying to pick apart every little thing even if IN GAME DIRECTLY CONTRIDICTS you.

The Crucible is a big battery. If it was more than that, then why do we need the Citadel? We could just use the Crucible in every system as we move through it.

Oh, that's right, the Citadel has all the options, BECAUSE THE CRUCIBLE IS JUST A BATTERY!

Which opens up the new options

If you have a torch but no battery, you cant turn in it.  Put a battery in and it opens up the possibiilty of you turning it on

Yes: but the battery didn't create the bulb, wire or switch did it?

no it didn't but thats not what im saying

it creates the possibilty for it to be used

BUT: you admit the infrastructure to facilitate the light coming on in presence of the battery ALREADY EXISTS do you not?  Ergo: it does not "create new options", it allows sufficient power for them to be used, the options already exist in hardware form.

yes, the catalyst solutions already exist too, the cruicble is the power source which opens up the use of the solutions

however with no power source all 3 solutions are useless, which is why id guess he is saying it "created new possibilties" as none of them would have been possible before the crucible docked

Modifié par Samtheman63, 13 août 2012 - 05:57 .

[Ticonderoga117]

An analogy.
What some people think the Crucible is:

The Crucible and Citadel + Relays:


What the Crucible really is:

[zambot]

1. Yes, the ending is bad.
2. "It created new options" isn't the worst part about the ending for me. I've always took that particular bit to mean:Shepard created new options. If you can look past the details for a bit, it's all about making Shepard into this god-like hero who has the capability to change everything.

a. Shep can change it by breaking the cycle and proving or disproving the Catalyst's assertion that synthetics will always destroy oranics, betting the entire galaxy on this decision (Destroy)
b. Shep can assume the role of the catalyst and solve the problem him/herself through new techniques (or possibly doomed to eventually arrive at the Catalyst's solution). (Control)
c. Shep can use "Essence" (wtf) to unite the galaxy in peace but doing this sacrifices Shep's life in an irrevocable manner. (Synthesis)

Breaking the cycle in these 3 manners is something that was not possible before Shepard came along. Shepard, by successfully uniting the galaxy and standing in front of the Catalyst proves this to the Catalyst. The Catalyst is now willing to hand the mantle for solving the problem (which he was created to solve) over to Shepard.

All 3 of these things are in fact valid endings, and they could have been really cool and thought provoking. Unfortunately the execution made the details larger than the message.

Modifié par zambot, 13 août 2012 - 05:58 .

[AnsinJung]

"The Crucible changed me," is just nonsensical space magic the player has no reason to believe. The only justification at all is, "hey this is the ending. Mind-blowing stuff is supposed to happen!"

When my mind was blown playing KotoR or watching Empire Strikes Back as a young laddie, pieces fell into place. The larger picture became clear. Mass Effect didn't establish anything of the sort, and apparently, they're now attempting to lay the ground work in reverse with EC, DLC, etc.

That failed rather horribly in the EC. It felt like they added scenes to make up for mistakes, rather than feeling like those scenes belonged in the first place, and things snapped into place. That would be a pointless way to tell a story. The things you delay for later are the surprises and twists themselves, not the mundane framework to make the story logically consistent.

Modifié par AnsinJung, 13 août 2012 - 06:02 .

[Hannah Montana]

Not to delve too deep into this but the Crucible is one giant plot hole.

Modifié par Hannah Montana, 13 août 2012 - 05:59 .

[LucasShark]

Samtheman63 wrote...

LucasShark wrote...

Samtheman63 wrote...

LucasShark wrote...

Samtheman63 wrote...

Ticonderoga117 wrote...

Adanu wrote...

A power source that gave him new options. IT. CREATED. NEW. OPTIONS.

You whiners are just trying to pick apart every little thing even if IN GAME DIRECTLY CONTRIDICTS you.

The Crucible is a big battery. If it was more than that, then why do we need the Citadel? We could just use the Crucible in every system as we move through it.

Oh, that's right, the Citadel has all the options, BECAUSE THE CRUCIBLE IS JUST A BATTERY!

Which opens up the new options

If you have a torch but no battery, you cant turn in it.  Put a battery in and it opens up the possibiilty of you turning it on

Yes: but the battery didn't create the bulb, wire or switch did it?

no it didn't but thats not what im saying

it creates the possibilty for it to be used

BUT: you admit the infrastructure to facilitate the light coming on in presence of the battery ALREADY EXISTS do you not?  Ergo: it does not "create new options", it allows sufficient power for them to be used, the options already exist in hardware form.

yes, the catalyst solutions already exist too, the cruicble is the power source which opens up the use of the solutions

however with no power source all 3 solutions are useless, which is why id guess he is saying it "created new possibilties" as none of them would have been possible before the crucible docked

And there lies the problems:
1) the crucible does not "create the options" as many pro-enders I've encounters state
2) The crucible is therefore interchangable with other power sources given the appropriate adapter
3) 2 leads into: why could an AI create a multi-kilometre space station and multi-kilometre space-bending relays across the universe, yet not manage to harness the power of a star less than a standard AU away from his current position?