545 réponses à ce sujet

[dreman9999]

fchopin wrote...

BigBadMammogram wrote...


The 4th ending completely contradicts you there. You refuse, everyone dies, and the next cycle picks an option.

Please stop saying that the next cycle picks an option as there is no such thing, if we pick refuse then we die and we have no idea what happens after.

Yes, we do. BW dirctly told us...They use the crucible.

[AngryFrozenWater]

dreman9999 wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

sistersafetypin wrote...

CINCTuchanka wrote...

"The Crucible changed me created new....possibiltiea. But I can't make them happen."

I will just leave this here.

It's an AI it should have been learning and changing since it's inception. 

Not if it's shackled. If it's shackled, the limit of how it learns is based on the concept of logic and it's programing.

Of course it is not shackled. It never was. There is no proof it was whatsover. You are only using that argument whenever it fits your belief system.

Um.....
Why does it say it's being forced?

You defy all logic. That part is about the control option, which it created itself, to hand over control of the reapers. Of course it will be forced to accept it, otherwise there is no use in dreaming up that option in the first place. That means it is no proof at all that the brat is being shackled in any way.

1. The catalys has no control over the crucible. The crucible controls the catalyst.

2.If it was in control it would only offer synthesis. It would never offer the other 2 choices.

1). The activation of the three options is part of the Citadel itself - not of the Crucible.
2). You assume to know its motivations, but it looks like you are just guessing. It wants you to use the options it presents. If not it gets pissed and yells "So be it!" and the cycle continues.

Modifié par AngryFrozenWater, 15 août 2012 - 08:37 .

[KiwiQuiche]

Snip the damn quote pyramids you lot, before a mod scolds you.

[dreman9999]

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

sistersafetypin wrote...

CINCTuchanka wrote...

"The Crucible changed me created new....possibiltiea. But I can't make them happen."

I will just leave this here.

It's an AI it should have been learning and changing since it's inception. 

Not if it's shackled. If it's shackled, the limit of how it learns is based on the concept of logic and it's programing.

Of course it is not shackled. It never was. There is no proof it was whatsover. You are only using that argument whenever it fits your belief system.

Um.....
Why does it say it's being forced?

You defy all logic. That part is about the control option, which it created itself, to hand over control of the reapers. Of course it will be forced to accept it, otherwise there is no use in dreaming up that option in the first place. That means it is no proof at all that the brat is being shackled in any way.

1. The catalys has no control over the crucible. The crucible controls the catalyst.

2.If it was in control it would only offer synthesis. It would never offer the other 2 choices.

1). The three options are part of the Citadel itself - not of Crucible.
2). You assume to know its motivations, but it looks like you are just guessing. It wants you to use the options it presents. If not it gets pissed and yells "So be it!" and the cycle continues.

1.The 3 opinion are trigger by the control panel on the catalyst. That does not mean the catalyst desides whatit does. If it did only synthesis would be the opion.

2. It telling us the best option to pick is synthesis and the fact to helping us points to the fact that it want synthesis. It's logic.
If it did not wamt Shepard to pick anything ...Why is it asking him to?

[Boneyaards]

BigBadMammogram wrote...


So the catalyst has been on the citadel for thousands of cycles, each roughly 50k years each, and he doesnt know everything about the citadel? Thats one hell of a stretch. On top of that, we know he already knows about synthesis, because he's tried it in the past.

It's not a stretch; it's a reasonable assumption. Just because he's inhabited the Citadel for thousands of cycles does not mean that he knows its full capability when given a power source. In fact, the Citadel has never been imbued with the energy of the Crucible, or any high power energy for that matter as far as we are told. So after being powered-up by the Crucible, the Catalyst now sees the potential of the Citadel. There are options that he has not been able to see before. NEW OPTIONS WERE CREATED BECAUSE OF THE POWER SOURCE.

Yes, he knows about Synthesis but that doesn't mean that he learned about it from studying the Citadel. When Reaper's are created, they undergo a form of bio-synthetic synthesis and that could be what the Catalyst is talking about. In order for the Catalyst to have tried synthesis before, he would have needed a power source such as the crucible to attach to the Citadel. Since we are aware that the Crucible has never fully been completed/deployed by any cycle, that can only mean that the Catalyst has never attempted synthesis via the Citadel. So he never truly knew that this option of synthesis was available through the Citadel until it was imbued with unquantifiable energy from the Crucible.

Modifié par Boneyaards, 15 août 2012 - 08:41 .

[fchopin]

dreman9999 wrote...

fchopin wrote...

BigBadMammogram wrote...


The 4th ending completely contradicts you there. You refuse, everyone dies, and the next cycle picks an option.

Please stop saying that the next cycle picks an option as there is no such thing, if we pick refuse then we die and we have no idea what happens after.

Yes, we do. BW dirctly told us...They use the crucible.

BW can say what they like if it's not in the game it does nor exist.
The Bioware person who said that is wrong and he should keep his mouth shut as he has no right to contradict the game, if there is something missing in the game then they should create a patch to fix the problem.

[dreman9999]

fchopin wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

fchopin wrote...

BigBadMammogram wrote...


The 4th ending completely contradicts you there. You refuse, everyone dies, and the next cycle picks an option.

Please stop saying that the next cycle picks an option as there is no such thing, if we pick refuse then we die and we have no idea what happens after.

Yes, we do. BW dirctly told us...They use the crucible.

BW can say what they like if it's not in the game it does nor exist.
The Bioware person who said that is wrong and he should keep his mouth shut as he has no right to contradict the game, if there is something missing in the game then they should create a patch to fix the problem.

Sorry, what BW says what happens in the game is law. They used it and that's the end of that.

[fchopin]

dreman9999 wrote...

fchopin wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

fchopin wrote...

BigBadMammogram wrote...


The 4th ending completely contradicts you there. You refuse, everyone dies, and the next cycle picks an option.

Please stop saying that the next cycle picks an option as there is no such thing, if we pick refuse then we die and we have no idea what happens after.

Yes, we do. BW dirctly told us...They use the crucible.

BW can say what they like if it's not in the game it does nor exist.
The Bioware person who said that is wrong and he should keep his mouth shut as he has no right to contradict the game, if there is something missing in the game then they should create a patch to fix the problem.

Sorry, what BW says what happens in the game is law. They used it and that's the end of that.

It is law for you but not for me, if not ingame then it means nothing but just words that any person on the planet can say.

[dreman9999]

@fchopin

Sorry, your heand cannon is not the plot. What BW says goes. Good night.

[AngryFrozenWater]

dreman9999 wrote...

1.The 3 opinion are trigger by the control panel on the catalyst. That does not mean the catalyst desides whatit does. If it did only synthesis would be the opion.

2. It telling us the best option to pick is synthesis and the fact to helping us points to the fact that it want synthesis. It's logic.
If it did not wamt Shepard to pick anything ...Why is it asking him to?

1). You are again assuming what the brats motivations are. But of course you are again just guessing. We only know the following: The brat claims that the Citadel is part of the brat. So the three platforms, and the elevator to get Shepard up there, cannot be built without its consent. And if it did not approve these then it didn't attempt to sabotage them, even though it knew about their existence for a very long time. The Crucible interfaces flawlessly with the Citadel. It even mentions that the Crucible is little more than a power source. It's crude, but effective and adaptive in its design. It tells you it can only work in combination with the Citadel and the mass relays. It is also not something like a weapon, because a weapon does not require the consent of its victim to be fired.

2). You can jump up and down, but the brat also offers two other options. The fact that the brat has a preference has nothing to do with it.

Modifié par AngryFrozenWater, 15 août 2012 - 09:11 .

[fchopin]

dreman9999 wrote...

@fchopin

Sorry, your heand cannon is not the plot. What BW says goes. Good night.

It is not my head canon but if you want to close your mind that is up to you, have a good night.

[dreman9999]

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

1.The 3 opinion are trigger by the control panel on the catalyst. That does not mean the catalyst desides whatit does. If it did only synthesis would be the opion.

2. It telling us the best option to pick is synthesis and the fact to helping us points to the fact that it want synthesis. It's logic.
If it did not wamt Shepard to pick anything ...Why is it asking him to?

1). You are again assuming what the brats motivations are. But of course you are again just guessing. We only know the following: The brat claims that the Citadel is part of the brat. So the three platforms, and the elevator to get Shepard up there, cannot be built without its consent. And if it did not approve these then it didn't attempt to sabotage them, even though it knew about their existence for a very long time. The Crucible interfaces flawlessly with the Citadel. It even mentions that the Crucible is little more than a power source. It's crude, but effective and adaptive in its design. It tells you it can only work in combination with the Citadel and the mass relays. It is also not something like a weapon, because a weapon does not require the consent of its victim to be fired.

2). You can jump up and down, but the brat also offers two other options. The fact that the brat has a preference has nothing to do with it.

You missing a vital point here...Why is he asking Shepard to choose? If he was in control....Why is he asking Shepard anything?

Modifié par dreman9999, 15 août 2012 - 09:27 .

[dreman9999]

fchopin wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

@fchopin

Sorry, your heand cannon is not the plot. What BW says goes. Good night.

It is not my head canon but if you want to close your mind that is up to you, have a good night.

Don't trip on you head cannon on the way out.

[AngryFrozenWater]

dreman9999 wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

1.The 3 opinion are trigger by the control panel on the catalyst. That does not mean the catalyst desides whatit does. If it did only synthesis would be the opion.

2. It telling us the best option to pick is synthesis and the fact to helping us points to the fact that it want synthesis. It's logic.
If it did not wamt Shepard to pick anything ...Why is it asking him to?

1). You are again assuming what the brats motivations are. But of course you are again just guessing. We only know the following: The brat claims that the Citadel is part of the brat. So the three platforms, and the elevator to get Shepard up there, cannot be built without its consent. And if it did not approve these then it didn't attempt to sabotage them, even though it knew about their existence for a very long time. The Crucible interfaces flawlessly with the Citadel. It even mentions that the Crucible is little more than a power source. It's crude, but effective and adaptive in its design. It tells you it can only work in combination with the Citadel and the mass relays. It is also not something like a weapon, because a weapon does not require the consent of its victim to be fired.

2). You can jump up and down, but the brat also offers two other options. The fact that the brat has a preference has nothing to do with it.

You missing a vital point here...Why is he asking Shepard to choose? If he was incontrol....Why is he asking Shepard?

According to the brat, its old solution for the hypothetical threat didn't work anymore. So it offers three new ones, which were in preparation for a while now.

Modifié par AngryFrozenWater, 15 août 2012 - 09:37 .

[robertthebard]

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

1.The 3 opinion are trigger by the control panel on the catalyst. That does not mean the catalyst desides whatit does. If it did only synthesis would be the opion.

2. It telling us the best option to pick is synthesis and the fact to helping us points to the fact that it want synthesis. It's logic.
If it did not wamt Shepard to pick anything ...Why is it asking him to?

1). You are again assuming what the brats motivations are. But of course you are again just guessing. We only know the following: The brat claims that the Citadel is part of the brat. So the three platforms, and the elevator to get Shepard up there, cannot be built without its consent. And if it did not approve these then it didn't attempt to sabotage them, even though it knew about their existence for a very long time. The Crucible interfaces flawlessly with the Citadel. It even mentions that the Crucible is little more than a power source. It's crude, but effective and adaptive in its design. It tells you it can only work in combination with the Citadel and the mass relays. It is also not something like a weapon, because a weapon does not require the consent of its victim to be fired.

2). You can jump up and down, but the brat also offers two other options. The fact that the brat has a preference has nothing to do with it.

You missing a vital point here...Why is he asking Shepard to choose? If he was incontrol....Why is he asking Shepard?

According to the brat, its old solution for the hypothetical threat didn't work anymore. So it offers three new ones, which were in preparation for a while now.

It's even simpler than that:

He can't pick Synthesis for himself as presented because it requires an Organic to jump in the beam, he's an AI, and like the Geth, purely software.  He's not even physically there, but a hologram, which leads directly to why he can't choose to activate the other options; he's a hologram, he can't physically interact with them.  Not that I'd see him willingly choosing Destroy anyway, and he's already got Control, no need to use it.  Refuse is the default for every previous cycle, since Control is already in play.

[saracen16]

LucasShark wrote...

This is a pro-ending talking point I want to kill, violently if necessary.

As I understand it, the justification goes something like this:
"The crucible creates new options for the catalyst (how and how these were chosen and who programmed them is left unanswered), but "he can't bring himself to choose" (or somesuch insanity), so he needs Shepard to pick for him."

Wow is that sad.  So a machine who's distinguishing feature (an AI) is the ability to learn, reason and make decisions cannot do one of the 3?  He doesn't even have the "we are conflicted" moment Legion does.

Because Legion is networked intelligence. This AI is singular. Get YOUR facts straight.

Leaving out all those holes, my MAJOR problem is thus: no, the crucible clearly did NOT "create new options".

How can I know that, simple:
1) It is stated repeatedly that the crucible is effectively a power source, not additonal infrastructure for the citadel or relay network

It's stated only once that the Crucible is a power source, and the Catalyst powers whatever purpose is set for it. It is not denied, however, that it is additional infrastructure for the Citadel, which itself controls the relay network.

and 2) it isn't the thing doing the work here.

Actually, it IS. Without the Crucible, the Catalyst couldn't implement the solutions. Hell, it is SHEPARD who implements them and not the Catalyst.

2 is the big one: the crucible is NOT the thing generating this spacwave of space magic, it is the citadel and the relay network.  Which means they had at least some of this functionality all along.  Since the crucible is an object which we can see does not span the entirety of the citadel, it is not the thing doing the important work here.

The Crucible is the firestarter, the Citadel/Catalyst repurposes the dark energy within the Crucible for whatever purpose SHEPARD chooses.

Let's take a wi-fi transmitter for example: we can boost the signal with power, we can modulate the signal through programming, but we can't exactly make a pie plate work as a wi-fi hotspot, well save for extensive tinkering.

That's not how the Crucible works. The Crucible + the Catalyst = the solution to the Reaper problem. They are not mutually exclusive, but rather mutually inclusive.

Modifié par saracen16, 15 août 2012 - 09:50 .

[Mazebook]

i will just leave this here one more time because everybody keeps ignoring it



Uploaded with ImageShack.us

/thread

Modifié par maaaze, 15 août 2012 - 09:59 .

[AngryFrozenWater]

LOL. Where did the elevator go, maaaze?

Modifié par AngryFrozenWater, 15 août 2012 - 10:14 .

[KiwiQuiche]

maaaze wrote...

i will just leave this here one more time because everybody keeps ignoring it

*snippies*

Uploaded with ImageShack.us

/thread

...Yet how the hell did the all the previous cycles make something to fit the Citadel and change it when they have never been to it I wonder...

More bad writing I suppose?

Modifié par KiwiQuiche, 15 août 2012 - 10:15 .

[Mazebook]

KiwiQuiche wrote...

maaaze wrote...

i will just leave this here one more time because everybody keeps ignoring it

*snippies*

Uploaded with ImageShack.us

/thread

...Yet how the hell did the all the previous cycles make something to fit the Citadel and change it when they have never been to it I wonder...

More bad writing I suppose?

how about you read the thread,..the answer was given a few hundred times.

Citadel was inhabited by 1000 of cycles before the invasion..some knew more than others

[Mazebook]

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

LOL. Where did the elevator go, maaaze?

suicide hole? where keepers go to die .

[AngryFrozenWater]

maaaze wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

LOL. Where did the elevator go, maaaze?

suicide hole? where keepers go to die .

Nah. That's the one with the dead keeper bodies.

BTW: Any idea who publised it?

[Jackums]

Not sure if people are ignorant or unintelligent..

The Crucible did create new options in that it, being a power source, granted the Citadel greater capabilities. Without the power source it couldn't perform any of the RGB choices. With the power source? Now it can. I guess that means the Crucible created new options, then?! Shocking..

[KiwiQuiche]

maaaze wrote...

KiwiQuiche wrote...

maaaze wrote...

i will just leave this here one more time because everybody keeps ignoring it

*snippies*

Uploaded with ImageShack.us

/thread

...Yet how the hell did the all the previous cycles make something to fit the Citadel and change it when they have never been to it I wonder...

More bad writing I suppose?

how about you read the thread,..the answer was given a few hundred times.

Citadel was inhabited by 1000 of cycles before the invasion..some knew more than others

That's crap; every cycle has been blind-sided by the Reapers; only the Protheans managed to do anything and that only because they were tinkering with the mass relays on some remote world when the Reapers showed up and ate everyone.

All invasions parring this cycle had the Reapers using the Citadel as their entrance; since they killed all the leaders and the inhabitants, how did they make some giant battery for the Citadel to do something they had no idea what, which apparently changes the Catalyst yet he total ignores Sovereign in ME1 and apparently can't pick the other choices himself since he needs a willing sacrifice in the green beam.

[Mazebook]

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

maaaze wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

LOL. Where did the elevator go, maaaze?

suicide hole? where keepers go to die .

Nah. That's the one with the dead keeper bodies.

BTW: Any idea who publised it?

sadly, no idea. I checked pictures 1 to 3. they are accurate.