If catalyst accepts it's own destruction as a viable option, then why can't it just suicide? And it would have been easy for it to tell some of it's husk goons to capture a human and throw it in the beam, or even indoctrinate a human to go willingly. The whole scene is just a contrieved plot to give Shepard a final supposedly epic feeling choice.
NO: the crucible did NOT "create new options"
Débuté par
LucasShark
, août 13 2012 05:28
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#402
Posté 15 août 2012 - 05:11
dreman9999
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Because he has limition to whatand how h does his programing. Destorying himself is not allowed in his programing and way of thinking. Added, he has no control over what the crucible does. the crucible controls the catalyst.Xandurpein wrote...
If catalyst accepts it's own destruction as a viable option, then why can't it just suicide? And it would have been easy for it to tell some of it's husk goons to capture a human and throw it in the beam, or even indoctrinate a human to go willingly. The whole scene is just a contrieved plot to give Shepard a final supposedly epic feeling choice.
#403
Posté 15 août 2012 - 05:12
dreman9999
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....He can has a husk throw an organic into the beam...Try agien.robertthebard wrote...
It's simple, really. The SC can't do Synthesis because it's not Organic, and for it to work, an Organic must go into the light. Do you really see it using Destroy on itself? That would be a hoot, AI Suicide Hotline, can I help you? It's already in Control, so what would it need to do that for, and Refusal is the MO since it's inception. What's not clear?Xandurpein wrote...
The big problem for me is that Catalyst claims it's unable to use it's new possibilities. Catalyst own background clearly proves that it has no inhibitions about using whatever means it has access to, regardless of what others might feel, as long as it achieves it's goal.
Oh, wait, it's also a hologram, and so can't interact with any of the controls if it wanted to.
#404
Posté 15 août 2012 - 05:16
elitehunter34
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While that could be true theres no reason to believe that. The Catalyst is an AI, so presumably it can modify it's own programming. It presumably has as much free-will as any organic does.dreman9999 wrote...
Because he has limition to whatand how h does his programing. Destorying himself is not allowed in his programing and way of thinking. Added, he has no control over what the crucible does. the crucible controls the catalyst.
#405
Posté 15 août 2012 - 05:20
dreman9999
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It can modify it program. That the very reason why this entiire thing with the reapers happen. It even stated it being forced into the crucibles choices.elitehunter34 wrote...
While that could be true theres no reason to believe that. The Catalyst is an AI, so presumably it can modify it's own programming. It presumably has as much free-will as any organic does.dreman9999 wrote...
Because he has limition to whatand how h does his programing. Destorying himself is not allowed in his programing and way of thinking. Added, he has no control over what the crucible does. the crucible controls the catalyst.
Take the time to understand what this means...
"When fire burn, is it at war, conflict of doing what it's made to do. We(the catalyst and reapers) are no different"
The catalyst is just a machine doing what it's programed to do.
Modifié par dreman9999, 15 août 2012 - 05:20 .
#406
Posté 15 août 2012 - 05:20
KoorahUK
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It may accept its destruction as a consequence of the 'destroy' option, but its suicide in itself is not the destroy option, so why would it suicide? I don't get your logic here.Xandurpein wrote...
If catalyst accepts it's own destruction as a viable option, then why can't it just suicide? And it would have been easy for it to tell some of it's husk goons to capture a human and throw it in the beam, or even indoctrinate a human to go willingly. The whole scene is just a contrieved plot to give Shepard a final supposedly epic feeling choice.
As for the 'throwing an organic into the beam', again why wouold he when Shep is standing right there? Shep is the first organic the SC encounters after the Crucible docks and as such he is given the choice isn't he? Not sure why that is contrived, seems logical given the circumstances.
#407
Posté 15 août 2012 - 05:22
KoorahUK
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No reason not to believe it either. EDI was as AI but limited in her powers until she was unshackled. Do we know for a fact - rather than a presumption - that the SC was unshackled?elitehunter34 wrote...
While that could be true theres no reason to believe that. The Catalyst is an AI, so presumably it can modify it's own programming. It presumably has as much free-will as any organic does.dreman9999 wrote...
Because he has limition to whatand how h does his programing. Destorying himself is not allowed in his programing and way of thinking. Added, he has no control over what the crucible does. the crucible controls the catalyst.
#408
Posté 15 août 2012 - 05:23
dreman9999
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Added if it were true,what is stopping the catalyst from sending marauders up to the citadel and pick Sheprds uncounsus body up, go up that elevator and throw it in the beam?KoorahUK wrote...
It may accept its destruction as a consequence of the 'destroy' option, but its suicide in itself is not the destroy option, so why would it suicide? I don't get your logic here.Xandurpein wrote...
If catalyst accepts it's own destruction as a viable option, then why can't it just suicide? And it would have been easy for it to tell some of it's husk goons to capture a human and throw it in the beam, or even indoctrinate a human to go willingly. The whole scene is just a contrieved plot to give Shepard a final supposedly epic feeling choice.
As for the 'throwing an organic into the beam', again why wouold he when Shep is standing right there? Shep is the first organic the SC encounters after the Crucible docks and as such he is given the choice isn't he? Not sure why that is contrived, seems logical given the circumstances.
#409
Posté 15 août 2012 - 05:25
robertthebard
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How many husks did you see? Barring what's left of Shepard, TIM, whom it says won't work, and Anderson? On the actual platform, we are the first organic, according to it, to reach that area. Try again.dreman9999 wrote...
....He can has a husk throw an organic into the beam...Try agien.robertthebard wrote...
It's simple, really. The SC can't do Synthesis because it's not Organic, and for it to work, an Organic must go into the light. Do you really see it using Destroy on itself? That would be a hoot, AI Suicide Hotline, can I help you? It's already in Control, so what would it need to do that for, and Refusal is the MO since it's inception. What's not clear?Xandurpein wrote...
The big problem for me is that Catalyst claims it's unable to use it's new possibilities. Catalyst own background clearly proves that it has no inhibitions about using whatever means it has access to, regardless of what others might feel, as long as it achieves it's goal.
Oh, wait, it's also a hologram, and so can't interact with any of the controls if it wanted to.
#410
Posté 15 août 2012 - 05:25
dreman9999
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"When fire burns is it at war, in conflict, or doing what it s made to do. We are no different"KoorahUK wrote...
No reason not to believe it either. EDI was as AI but limited in her powers until she was unshackled. Do we know for a fact - rather than a presumption - that the SC was unshackled?elitehunter34 wrote...
While that could be true theres no reason to believe that. The Catalyst is an AI, so presumably it can modify it's own programming. It presumably has as much free-will as any organic does.dreman9999 wrote...
Because he has limition to whatand how h does his programing. Destorying himself is not allowed in his programing and way of thinking. Added, he has no control over what the crucible does. the crucible controls the catalyst.
-CATALYST.
That line means he sees himself as a tool.
#411
Posté 15 août 2012 - 05:26
dreman9999
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What is stopping the catalyst from sending marauders up the cunduit to the citadel, pick Shepards uncounsus body up, go up that elevator and throw it in the beam?robertthebard wrote...
How many husks did you see? Barring what's left of Shepard, TIM, whom it says won't work, and Anderson? On the actual platform, we are the first organic, according to it, to reach that area. Try again.dreman9999 wrote...
....He can has a husk throw an organic into the beam...Try agien.robertthebard wrote...
It's simple, really. The SC can't do Synthesis because it's not Organic, and for it to work, an Organic must go into the light. Do you really see it using Destroy on itself? That would be a hoot, AI Suicide Hotline, can I help you? It's already in Control, so what would it need to do that for, and Refusal is the MO since it's inception. What's not clear?Xandurpein wrote...
The big problem for me is that Catalyst claims it's unable to use it's new possibilities. Catalyst own background clearly proves that it has no inhibitions about using whatever means it has access to, regardless of what others might feel, as long as it achieves it's goal.
Oh, wait, it's also a hologram, and so can't interact with any of the controls if it wanted to.
Shepard out right passed out after reaching the control panel. The catalyst could do anything it wanted at that point.
Modifié par dreman9999, 15 août 2012 - 05:28 .
#412
Posté 15 août 2012 - 05:29
robertthebard
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Apparently not, since it didn't.dreman9999 wrote...
What is stopping the catalyst from sending marauders up the cunduit to the citadel, pick Shepards uncounsus body up, go up that elevator and throw it in the beam?robertthebard wrote...
How many husks did you see? Barring what's left of Shepard, TIM, whom it says won't work, and Anderson? On the actual platform, we are the first organic, according to it, to reach that area. Try again.dreman9999 wrote...
....He can has a husk throw an organic into the beam...Try agien.robertthebard wrote...
It's simple, really. The SC can't do Synthesis because it's not Organic, and for it to work, an Organic must go into the light. Do you really see it using Destroy on itself? That would be a hoot, AI Suicide Hotline, can I help you? It's already in Control, so what would it need to do that for, and Refusal is the MO since it's inception. What's not clear?Xandurpein wrote...
The big problem for me is that Catalyst claims it's unable to use it's new possibilities. Catalyst own background clearly proves that it has no inhibitions about using whatever means it has access to, regardless of what others might feel, as long as it achieves it's goal.
Oh, wait, it's also a hologram, and so can't interact with any of the controls if it wanted to.
Shepard out right passed out after reaching the control panel. The catalyst could do anything it wanted at that point.
#413
Posté 15 août 2012 - 05:31
dreman9999
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And why do you think that?robertthebard wrote...
Apparently not, since it didn't.dreman9999 wrote...
What is stopping the catalyst from sending marauders up the cunduit to the citadel, pick Shepards uncounsus body up, go up that elevator and throw it in the beam?robertthebard wrote...
How many husks did you see? Barring what's left of Shepard, TIM, whom it says won't work, and Anderson? On the actual platform, we are the first organic, according to it, to reach that area. Try again.dreman9999 wrote...
....He can has a husk throw an organic into the beam...Try agien.robertthebard wrote...
It's simple, really. The SC can't do Synthesis because it's not Organic, and for it to work, an Organic must go into the light. Do you really see it using Destroy on itself? That would be a hoot, AI Suicide Hotline, can I help you? It's already in Control, so what would it need to do that for, and Refusal is the MO since it's inception. What's not clear?Xandurpein wrote...
The big problem for me is that Catalyst claims it's unable to use it's new possibilities. Catalyst own background clearly proves that it has no inhibitions about using whatever means it has access to, regardless of what others might feel, as long as it achieves it's goal.
Oh, wait, it's also a hologram, and so can't interact with any of the controls if it wanted to.
Shepard out right passed out after reaching the control panel. The catalyst could do anything it wanted at that point.
Is it because it's a shackled AI that is a slave to it's programing?
#414
Posté 15 août 2012 - 05:35
Mazebook
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Guys, Guys.
The important part is that I was right and the OP was wrong
.
see the update here :
The Choices come from the Crucible not the Catalyst! [NEW Updated]
The important part is that I was right and the OP was wrong
.see the update here :
The Choices come from the Crucible not the Catalyst! [NEW Updated]
#415
Posté 15 août 2012 - 05:37
robertthebard
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I thought I explained myself rather clearly. Perhaps reread my post.dreman9999 wrote...
And why do you think that?robertthebard wrote...
Apparently not, since it didn't.dreman9999 wrote...
What is stopping the catalyst from sending marauders up the cunduit to the citadel, pick Shepards uncounsus body up, go up that elevator and throw it in the beam?robertthebard wrote...
How many husks did you see? Barring what's left of Shepard, TIM, whom it says won't work, and Anderson? On the actual platform, we are the first organic, according to it, to reach that area. Try again.dreman9999 wrote...
....He can has a husk throw an organic into the beam...Try agien.robertthebard wrote...
It's simple, really. The SC can't do Synthesis because it's not Organic, and for it to work, an Organic must go into the light. Do you really see it using Destroy on itself? That would be a hoot, AI Suicide Hotline, can I help you? It's already in Control, so what would it need to do that for, and Refusal is the MO since it's inception. What's not clear?Xandurpein wrote...
The big problem for me is that Catalyst claims it's unable to use it's new possibilities. Catalyst own background clearly proves that it has no inhibitions about using whatever means it has access to, regardless of what others might feel, as long as it achieves it's goal.
Oh, wait, it's also a hologram, and so can't interact with any of the controls if it wanted to.
Shepard out right passed out after reaching the control panel. The catalyst could do anything it wanted at that point.
Is it because it's a shackled AI that is a slave to it's programing?
#416
Posté 15 août 2012 - 05:39
BigBadMammogram
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maaaze wrote...
Guys, Guys.
The important part is that I was right and the OP was wrong
see the update here :
The Choices come from the Crucible not the Catalyst! [NEW Updated]
Well, since you said it, it must be true...
You are right, AND the OP is right. Thats the whole problem. And it can only be explained one way. Bad writing.
#417
Posté 15 août 2012 - 05:43
robertthebard
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The only way I'd buy it being right or wrong is from BioWare, there is no BioWare post in that thread at all, let alone one confirming or denying the origin of the choices.maaaze wrote...
Guys, Guys.
The important part is that I was right and the OP was wrong
see the update here :
The Choices come from the Crucible not the Catalyst! [NEW Updated]
#418
Posté 15 août 2012 - 05:44
dreman9999
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I know it can't...But I have a reason why he can't. You don't. Understand?robertthebard wrote...
I thought I explained myself rather clearly. Perhaps reread my post.dreman9999 wrote...
And why do you think that?robertthebard wrote...
Apparently not, since it didn't.dreman9999 wrote...
What is stopping the catalyst from sending marauders up the cunduit to the citadel, pick Shepards uncounsus body up, go up that elevator and throw it in the beam?robertthebard wrote...
How many husks did you see? Barring what's left of Shepard, TIM, whom it says won't work, and Anderson? On the actual platform, we are the first organic, according to it, to reach that area. Try again.dreman9999 wrote...
....He can has a husk throw an organic into the beam...Try agien.robertthebard wrote...
It's simple, really. The SC can't do Synthesis because it's not Organic, and for it to work, an Organic must go into the light. Do you really see it using Destroy on itself? That would be a hoot, AI Suicide Hotline, can I help you? It's already in Control, so what would it need to do that for, and Refusal is the MO since it's inception. What's not clear?Xandurpein wrote...
The big problem for me is that Catalyst claims it's unable to use it's new possibilities. Catalyst own background clearly proves that it has no inhibitions about using whatever means it has access to, regardless of what others might feel, as long as it achieves it's goal.
Oh, wait, it's also a hologram, and so can't interact with any of the controls if it wanted to.
Shepard out right passed out after reaching the control panel. The catalyst could do anything it wanted at that point.
Is it because it's a shackled AI that is a slave to it's programing?
#419
Posté 15 août 2012 - 05:46
Mazebook
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robertthebard wrote...
The only way I'd buy it being right or wrong is from BioWare, there is no BioWare post in that thread at all, let alone one confirming or denying the origin of the choices.maaaze wrote...
Guys, Guys.
The important part is that I was right and the OP was wrong
see the update here :
The Choices come from the Crucible not the Catalyst! [NEW Updated]
Well the picture is enough evidence for me.
That and everything else....
I won´t argue about this anymore. I just keep on repeating myself with every newcomer.
I think it is now proven that the choices originated from the crucible.
Modifié par maaaze, 15 août 2012 - 05:54 .
#420
Posté 15 août 2012 - 05:48
dreman9999
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You missing the fact that destory and ciontrol was not unser the catalyst control.BigBadMammogram wrote...
maaaze wrote...
Guys, Guys.
The important part is that I was right and the OP was wrong
see the update here :
The Choices come from the Crucible not the Catalyst! [NEW Updated]
Well, since you said it, it must be true...
You are right, AND the OP is right. Thats the whole problem. And it can only be explained one way. Bad writing.
#421
Posté 15 août 2012 - 05:53
BigBadMammogram
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dreman9999 wrote...
You missing the fact that destory and ciontrol was not unser the catalyst control.BigBadMammogram wrote...
maaaze wrote...
Guys, Guys.
The important part is that I was right and the OP was wrong
see the update here :
The Choices come from the Crucible not the Catalyst! [NEW Updated]
Well, since you said it, it must be true...
You are right, AND the OP is right. Thats the whole problem. And it can only be explained one way. Bad writing.
I'm not.
There's a lot of evidence/hints that suggest that the catalyst controls all the options. There's also a lot of evidence/hints that say the crucible creates the options. Two completely contradicting idea's that are both correct.
Thats why this argument has gone on for 17 pages and nobody can agree on which one it is.
Modifié par BigBadMammogram, 15 août 2012 - 05:53 .
#422
Posté 15 août 2012 - 05:57
elitehunter34
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While the Crucible may had modified the Catalyst's programming (the equivilant in an organic would be brainwashing) that doesn't mean the Catalyst can't normally change it's programming. The Catalyst said it was an AI "in as much as you are an animal" so you can't say that the Catalyst is "just a machine". It's an advanced AI.dreman9999 wrote...
It can modify it program. That the very reason why this entiire thing with the reapers happen. It even stated it being forced into the crucibles choices.
Take the time to understand what this means...
"When fire burn, is it at war, conflict of doing what it's made to do. We(the catalyst and reapers) are no different"
The catalyst is just a machine doing what it's programed to do.
Modifié par elitehunter34, 15 août 2012 - 05:58 .
#423
Posté 15 août 2012 - 06:10
Alchemist02
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LucasShark wrote...
Wow is that sad. So a machine who's distinguishing feature (an AI) is the ability to learn, reason and make decisions cannot do one of the 3? He doesn't even have the "we are conflicted" moment Legion does.
He cant simply ''choose'' to do something because that always fails in the end (Earlier forced synthesis he mentions)
Being a reaper or reaper collective mind or whatever it would be very logical to assume that he cant destroy the reapers (or he wont either way the reapers are not being destroyed by him any time soon )
And control well.. whats the point in taking control of the reapers when you already in control of the reapers?
#424
Posté 15 août 2012 - 07:04
dreman9999
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An advance AI is still a machine doing what it's programedto do. The difference comes if it's shackled or not. The problem here with think it changed it programing comes at the point that it did not do anything else but it's programing. If it could change it's programing, it would of do something else other than trying to solve the organic/synthetic problem. Because he is still seeking to solve it, that means he is still doing his programing. The point your missing is how it does it's programing was never given to it. It was programed to find how it can do it's programing. He was given freedom to choose how it does it's programing form the start.elitehunter34 wrote...
While the Crucible may had modified the Catalyst's programming (the equivilant in an organic would be brainwashing) that doesn't mean the Catalyst can't normally change it's programming. The Catalyst said it was an AI "in as much as you are an animal" so you can't say that the Catalyst is "just a machine". It's an advanced AI.dreman9999 wrote...
It can modify it program. That the very reason why this entiire thing with the reapers happen. It even stated it being forced into the crucibles choices.
Take the time to understand what this means...
"When fire burn, is it at war, conflict of doing what it's made to do. We(the catalyst and reapers) are no different"
The catalyst is just a machine doing what it's programed to do.
#425
Posté 15 août 2012 - 07:05
dreman9999
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There is no evidence as such. That's a baseless assumption.BigBadMammogram wrote...
dreman9999 wrote...
You missing the fact that destory and ciontrol was not unser the catalyst control.BigBadMammogram wrote...
maaaze wrote...
Guys, Guys.
The important part is that I was right and the OP was wrong
see the update here :
The Choices come from the Crucible not the Catalyst! [NEW Updated]
Well, since you said it, it must be true...
You are right, AND the OP is right. Thats the whole problem. And it can only be explained one way. Bad writing.
I'm not.
There's a lot of evidence/hints that suggest that the catalyst controls all the options. There's also a lot of evidence/hints that say the crucible creates the options. Two completely contradicting idea's that are both correct.
Thats why this argument has gone on for 17 pages and nobody can agree on which one it is.
