545 réponses à ce sujet

[BigBadMammogram]

dreman9999 wrote...

BigBadMammogram wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

BigBadMammogram wrote...

maaaze wrote...

 Guys, Guys.

The important part is that I was right and the OP was wrong .

see the update here : 
The Choices come from the Crucible not the Catalyst! [NEW Updated] 

Well, since you said it, it must be true...

You are right, AND the OP is right. Thats the whole problem. And it can only be explained one way. Bad writing. 

You missing the fact that destory and ciontrol was not unser the catalyst control.

I'm not.

There's a lot of evidence/hints that suggest that the catalyst controls all the options. There's also a lot of evidence/hints that say the crucible creates the options. Two completely contradicting idea's that are both correct. 

Thats why this argument has gone on for 17 pages and nobody can agree on which one it is. 

There is no evidence as such. That's a baseless assumption.

Yeah, your right. The starkid never said anything along the lines of "the crucible is little more than a crude power supply", and he definatly didnt say "the crucible has changed me, given me new options". Because that could be considered pretty solid evidence that the options dont come from the catalyst, and they DO come from the catalyst.

There's 17 pages of arguments here, with people presenting evidence for both sides. If you need more, go back a few pages.

[dreman9999]

BigBadMammogram wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

BigBadMammogram wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

BigBadMammogram wrote...

maaaze wrote...

 Guys, Guys.

The important part is that I was right and the OP was wrong .

see the update here : 
The Choices come from the Crucible not the Catalyst! [NEW Updated] 

Well, since you said it, it must be true...

You are right, AND the OP is right. Thats the whole problem. And it can only be explained one way. Bad writing. 

You missing the fact that destory and ciontrol was not unser the catalyst control.

I'm not.

There's a lot of evidence/hints that suggest that the catalyst controls all the options. There's also a lot of evidence/hints that say the crucible creates the options. Two completely contradicting idea's that are both correct. 

Thats why this argument has gone on for 17 pages and nobody can agree on which one it is. 

There is no evidence as such. That's a baseless assumption.

Yeah, your right. The starkid never said anything along the lines of "the crucible is little more than a crude power supply", and he definatly didnt say "the crucible has changed me, given me new options". Because that could be considered pretty solid evidence that the options dont come from the catalyst, and they DO come from the catalyst.

There's 17 pages of arguments here, with people presenting evidence for both sides. If you need more, go back a few pages.

Those line don't mean the catalyst control the crusible. If you think they do, your just assuming.
Being given new options does not mean it controls what it does.

Let me us an example to explaine. You trying to go to point b from a  daily and you just have one path to use...Then one day a new path comes up to get you to POINT B...Do you control where the new path goes and how it get there being that it's  a new option?

 Remeber,...
It says it's being forced.

Modifié par dreman9999, 15 août 2012 - 08:07 .

[BigBadMammogram]

dreman9999 wrote...

BigBadMammogram wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

BigBadMammogram wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

BigBadMammogram wrote...

maaaze wrote...

 Guys, Guys.

The important part is that I was right and the OP was wrong .

see the update here : 
The Choices come from the Crucible not the Catalyst! [NEW Updated] 

Well, since you said it, it must be true...

You are right, AND the OP is right. Thats the whole problem. And it can only be explained one way. Bad writing. 

You missing the fact that destory and ciontrol was not unser the catalyst control.

I'm not.

There's a lot of evidence/hints that suggest that the catalyst controls all the options. There's also a lot of evidence/hints that say the crucible creates the options. Two completely contradicting idea's that are both correct. 

Thats why this argument has gone on for 17 pages and nobody can agree on which one it is. 

There is no evidence as such. That's a baseless assumption.

Yeah, your right. The starkid never said anything along the lines of "the crucible is little more than a crude power supply", and he definatly didnt say "the crucible has changed me, given me new options". Because that could be considered pretty solid evidence that the options dont come from the catalyst, and they DO come from the catalyst.

There's 17 pages of arguments here, with people presenting evidence for both sides. If you need more, go back a few pages.

Those line don't mean the catalyst control the crusible. If you think they do, your just assuming.
Being given new options does not mean it controls what it does.

Let me us an example to explaine. You trying to go to point b from a  daily and you just have one path to use...Then one day a new path comes up to get you to POINT B...Do you control where the new path goes and how it get there being that it's  a new option?

 Remeber,...
It says it's being forced.

Your missing the point... I dont care who controls it. Everything you just said indicates that the crucible is a hell of a lot more than just a 'crude power supply'. And yet the starkid still calls it just that. You can't have it both ways.

My argument is that there is no way to know if it is just a crude power source or if it somehow gives the starkid new options, because there is evidence that shows BOTH ideas are correct. So how is this possible? Simple, bad writing.

[dreman9999]

BigBadMammogram wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

BigBadMammogram wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

BigBadMammogram wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

BigBadMammogram wrote...

maaaze wrote...

 Guys, Guys.

The important part is that I was right and the OP was wrong .

see the update here : 
The Choices come from the Crucible not the Catalyst! [NEW Updated] 

Well, since you said it, it must be true...

You are right, AND the OP is right. Thats the whole problem. And it can only be explained one way. Bad writing. 

You missing the fact that destory and ciontrol was not unser the catalyst control.

I'm not.

There's a lot of evidence/hints that suggest that the catalyst controls all the options. There's also a lot of evidence/hints that say the crucible creates the options. Two completely contradicting idea's that are both correct. 

Thats why this argument has gone on for 17 pages and nobody can agree on which one it is. 

There is no evidence as such. That's a baseless assumption.

Yeah, your right. The starkid never said anything along the lines of "the crucible is little more than a crude power supply", and he definatly didnt say "the crucible has changed me, given me new options". Because that could be considered pretty solid evidence that the options dont come from the catalyst, and they DO come from the catalyst.

There's 17 pages of arguments here, with people presenting evidence for both sides. If you need more, go back a few pages.

Those line don't mean the catalyst control the crusible. If you think they do, your just assuming.
Being given new options does not mean it controls what it does.

Let me us an example to explaine. You trying to go to point b from a  daily and you just have one path to use...Then one day a new path comes up to get you to POINT B...Do you control where the new path goes and how it get there being that it's  a new option?

 Remeber,...
It says it's being forced.

Your missing the point... I dont care who controls it. Everything you just said indicates that the crucible is a hell of a lot more than just a 'crude power supply'. And yet the starkid still calls it just that. You can't have it both ways.

My argument is that there is no way to know if it is just a crude power source or if it somehow gives the starkid new options, because there is evidence that shows BOTH ideas are correct. So how is this possible? Simple, bad writing.

1. The crucible is nothing with out the catalyst. Think of  the catalyst as a bow and the crucible as he arrows and you'll get his point.
2. It does matter who controls the crucible. This way we know what choices are vitable and not traps.

The evidence does not suppoert both assumtions...There more evidence that the catalyst has no control over the crucible at all. None that shows it's  in control.

Even the catalyst says he isnot in control...

Modifié par dreman9999, 15 août 2012 - 08:20 .

[Ticonderoga117]

maaaze wrote...

 Guys, Guys.

The important part is that the choices come from the Citadel.

Fixed that for you.

"The Crucible is little more than a powersouce."
This straight from the horse's mouth.

[dreman9999]

Ticonderoga117 wrote...

maaaze wrote...

 Guys, Guys.

The important part is that the choices come from the Citadel.

Fixed that for you.

"The Crucible is little more than a powersouce."
This straight from the horse's mouth.

That means the crucible can't work with out the citadel. That does not means the catalust controls the crucible. Think of the citadel and the crucible as a bow and arrow and you'll get what he is saying. The catalyst does not control what the citadel does nor the crucible.

Modifié par dreman9999, 15 août 2012 - 08:32 .

[Ticonderoga117]

dreman9999 wrote...
That means the crucible can't work with out the citadel. That does not means the catalust controls the crucible. Think of the citadel and the crucible as a bow and arrow and you'll get what he is saying. The catalyst does not control what the citadel does nor the crucible.

Yeah, but the Catalyst is the Citadel. Or, rather the Citadel is part of him. He controls the Citadel. He operates the lifts, he can open the arms. He also controls all the Reapers and everything they control, which also included the Citadel.

The Crucible is the powersource that allows the Citadel to use those inbuilt functions of stupidity.

[BigBadMammogram]

dreman9999 wrote...

Ticonderoga117 wrote...

maaaze wrote...

 Guys, Guys.

The important part is that the choices come from the Citadel.

Fixed that for you.

"The Crucible is little more than a powersouce."
This straight from the horse's mouth.

That means the crucible can't work with out the citadel. That does not means the catalust controls the crucible. Think of the citadel and the crucible as a bow and arrow and you'll get what he is saying. The catalyst does not control what the citadel does nor the crucible.

Saying an arrow is 'little more than a stick' is a gross understatement.

[BigBadMammogram]

Ticonderoga117 wrote...

...those inbuilt functions of stupidity.

Well said.

[dreman9999]

BigBadMammogram wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Ticonderoga117 wrote...

maaaze wrote...

 Guys, Guys.

The important part is that the choices come from the Citadel.

Fixed that for you.

"The Crucible is little more than a powersouce."
This straight from the horse's mouth.

That means the crucible can't work with out the citadel. That does not means the catalust controls the crucible. Think of the citadel and the crucible as a bow and arrow and you'll get what he is saying. The catalyst does not control what the citadel does nor the crucible.

Saying an arrow is 'little more than a stick' is a gross understatement.

But it is. How effective is an arrow with out a bow. You can kill with a sharpen stick the same why you can kill with an arrow alown with the same effectiveness. With the bow the arrow is more then just a shapend stick or a stick with a point on it.

The crucible is nothing with out the catalyst...That's all it's saying.

[dreman9999]

Ticonderoga117 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...
That means the crucible can't work with out the citadel. That does not means the catalust controls the crucible. Think of the citadel and the crucible as a bow and arrow and you'll get what he is saying. The catalyst does not control what the citadel does nor the crucible.

Yeah, but the Catalyst is the Citadel. Or, rather the Citadel is part of him. He controls the Citadel. He operates the lifts, he can open the arms. He also controls all the Reapers and everything they control, which also included the Citadel.

The Crucible is the powersource that allows the Citadel to use those inbuilt functions of stupidity.

Note that he was only shown to move the citadel after the crucible is attached.

[BigBadMammogram]

dreman9999 wrote...

BigBadMammogram wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Ticonderoga117 wrote...

maaaze wrote...

 Guys, Guys.

The important part is that the choices come from the Citadel.

Fixed that for you.

"The Crucible is little more than a powersouce."
This straight from the horse's mouth.

That means the crucible can't work with out the citadel. That does not means the catalust controls the crucible. Think of the citadel and the crucible as a bow and arrow and you'll get what he is saying. The catalyst does not control what the citadel does nor the crucible.

Saying an arrow is 'little more than a stick' is a gross understatement.

But it is. How effective is an arrow with out a bow. You can kill with a sharpen stick the same why you can kill with an arrow alown with the same effectiveness. With the bow the arrow is more then just a shapend stick or a stick with a point on it.

The crucible is nothing with out the catalyst...That's all it's saying.

Its still a huge understatement. A sharpened stick has a very short range. A sharpened stick does not have feathers to help it fly true. A sharpened stick does not have a stone, or metal head to help it penetrate its target. A sharpened stick is not made perfectly strait to help it fly true. In short, an arrow is more than a sharpened stick. It is not 'little more than a sharpened stick'.

And ask Legolas how effective an arrow is without a bow

[BigBadMammogram]

dreman9999 wrote...

Ticonderoga117 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...
That means the crucible can't work with out the citadel. That does not means the catalust controls the crucible. Think of the citadel and the crucible as a bow and arrow and you'll get what he is saying. The catalyst does not control what the citadel does nor the crucible.

Yeah, but the Catalyst is the Citadel. Or, rather the Citadel is part of him. He controls the Citadel. He operates the lifts, he can open the arms. He also controls all the Reapers and everything they control, which also included the Citadel.

The Crucible is the powersource that allows the Citadel to use those inbuilt functions of stupidity.

Note that he was only shown to move the citadel after the crucible is attached.

Question, since I dont remember the end with perfect clarity.(and I cant watch youtube right now) Didn't anderson(or shepard) say something about 'the citadel seems to be rearranging itself around us' while they were walking up to the control room? Before the crucible was attached?

[Ticonderoga117]

dreman9999 wrote...
Note that he was only shown to move the citadel after the crucible is attached.

And? Just because we have no evidence to it, doesn't mean it's not possible.

[Geneaux486]

Ticonderoga117 wrote...

maaaze wrote...

 Guys, Guys.

The important part is that the choices come from the Citadel.

Fixed that for you.

"The Crucible is little more than a powersouce."
This straight from the horse's mouth.

"The Crucible changed me, created new possibilities, but I can't make them happen."

Straight from the horse's mouth.

[BigBadMammogram]

Sigh... Again, thats the whole problem. We have two contradicting ideas that are BOTH correct according to what is shown to us in game. Geneaux486, you just proved that.

[Geneaux486]

BigBadMammogram wrote...

Sigh... Again, thats the whole problem. We have two contradicting ideas that are BOTH correct according to what is shown to us in game. Geneaux486, you just proved that.

I think the Crucible is just a powersource that changed the Catalyst and created new possibilities.  Stranger things exist in the Mass Effect world, no denying that.  People take it for granted that the two statements contradict each other, but we don't know enough about the Crucible to prove that they do.  What we do know is that the Crucible is stated to have created the new possibilities, and the opposite is never actually stated, so yeah.

Modifié par Geneaux486, 15 août 2012 - 09:43 .

[Ticonderoga117]

Geneaux486 wrote...

BigBadMammogram wrote...

Sigh... Again, thats the whole problem. We have two contradicting ideas that are BOTH correct according to what is shown to us in game. Geneaux486, you just proved that.

I think the Crucible is just a powersource that changed the Catalyst and created new possibilities.  Stranger things exist in the Mass Effect world, no denying that.  People take it for granted that the two statements contradict each other, but we don't know enough about the Crucible to prove that they do.

How do you change what you don't know is there?

[Geneaux486]

Ticonderoga117 wrote...

Geneaux486 wrote...

BigBadMammogram wrote...

Sigh... Again, thats the whole problem. We have two contradicting ideas that are BOTH correct according to what is shown to us in game. Geneaux486, you just proved that.

I think the Crucible is just a powersource that changed the Catalyst and created new possibilities.  Stranger things exist in the Mass Effect world, no denying that.  People take it for granted that the two statements contradict each other, but we don't know enough about the Crucible to prove that they do.

How do you change what you don't know is there?

By chance.  The Crucible was adapted to work with the Citadel, as told to us by Vendetta.  Way I figure it, the options it created just happened to appeal to the Catalyst as being better than its own solution, hence why it was "changed" by them.

EDIT:  Also we don't know for sure that there wasn't at least one being in all the cycles that found out about the Catalyst.  Just because no organic had ever stood directly before it doesn't mean they didn't find out it was there, blah blah, etc.  Semantics are important when we're trying to gather hard evidence.  No where is it actually stated that the Catalyst was a secret to every organic being that's ever lived.

Modifié par Geneaux486, 15 août 2012 - 09:46 .

[BigBadMammogram]

Geneaux486 wrote...

 and the opposite is never actually stated, so yeah.

Really? The opposite is never stated? Really?

Geneaux486 wrote...

Ticonderoga117 wrote...

maaaze wrote...

 Guys, Guys.

The important part is that the choices come from the Citadel.

Fixed that for you.

"The Crucible is little more than a powersouce."
This straight from the horse's mouth.

"The Crucible changed me, created new possibilities, but I can't make them happen."

Straight from the horse's mouth.

You posted that. You posted the exact line  where the opposite was stated.

Really?

[Mazebook]

Ticonderoga117 wrote...

maaaze wrote...

 Guys, Guys.

The important part is that the choices come from the Citadel.

Fixed that for you.

"The Crucible is little more than a powersouce."
This straight from the horse's mouth.

i hate these fixed arguements.

No the choices came from the nubble attached to the crucible and released onto the citadel. look at the posted picture.

http://imageshack.us...explainati.png/

[Geneaux486]

You posted that. You posted the exact line where the opposite was stated.

Really?

Except, as I've shown, the two quotes are not actually opposites.  As I said, nowhere in the game is the opposite of "The Crucible... created new possibilities" stated.  I'm talking a statement literally stating either that the Catalyst created the possibilities or that the Crucible definetely did not create them.  These statements do not exist, therefore nothing is definetely contradicted, you just assumed it was.

i hate these fixed arguements.

And ironically, altering your quote from a statement of in-game fact to a statment directly contradicted by in-game fact actually broke your post as opposed to fixing it.

Modifié par Geneaux486, 15 août 2012 - 09:59 .

[BigBadMammogram]

Geneaux486 wrote...

You posted that. You posted the exact line where the opposite was stated.

Really?

Except, as I've shown, the two quotes are not actually opposites.  As I said, nowhere in the game is the opposite of "The Crucible... created new possibilities" stated.  I'm talking a statement literally stating either that the Catalyst created the possibilities or that the Crucible definetely did not create them.  These statements do not exist, therefore nothing is definetely contradicted, you just assumed it was.

Something that is just a power source cannot modify the most advanced AI in the galaxy. So please, explain how the statement 'little more than a crude power soure' and 'gave me new options' dont contradict each other.

And make sure you read some of my previous posts before you do. I dont want to keep repeating the same arguments.

[BigBadMammogram]

maaaze wrote...

Ticonderoga117 wrote...

maaaze wrote...

 Guys, Guys.

The important part is that the choices come from the Citadel.

Fixed that for you.

"The Crucible is little more than a powersouce."
This straight from the horse's mouth.

i hate these fixed arguements.

No the choices came from the nubble attached to the crucible and released onto the citadel. look at the posted picture.

http://imageshack.us...explainati.png/

Well, that explains how the crucible is 'little more than a crude power source'...

[Geneaux486]

Something that is just a power source cannot modify the most advanced AI in the galaxy.

That power source made possible new solutions that are not possible without it, the Catalyst embraced these new possibilities as better than his own solution. That's just one way it could be true. My point stands.  Your assertion that this powersource that we as the players have no understanding of could not possibly alter the Catalyst in any way, shape, or form, directly or indirectly, is an arbitrary rule you've assigned yourself, not an in-game fact.

And make sure you read some of my previous posts before you do. I dont want to keep repeating the same arguments.

Suck it up, mang I repeat my arguments all the time (I'm doing it right here in these last few posts of mine, even), just something that's bound to happen with subject matter that gets discussed repeatedly over a long period of time.

Modifié par Geneaux486, 15 août 2012 - 10:06 .