545 réponses à ce sujet

[BigBadMammogram]

Geneaux486 wrote...

Something that is just a power source cannot modify the most advanced AI in the galaxy.

That power source made possible new solutions that are not possible without it, the Catalyst embraced these new possibilities as better than his own solution. That's just one way it could be true. My point stands.  Your assertion that this powersource that we as the players have no understanding of could not possibly alter the Catalyst in any way, shape, or form, directly or indirectly, is an arbitrary rule you've assigned yourself, not an in-game fact.

And make sure you read some of my previous posts before you do. I dont want to keep repeating the same arguments.

Suck it up, mang I repeat my arguments all the time, just something that's bound to happen with subject matter that gets discussed repeatedly over a long period of time.

Then the catalyst would have said something along the lines of 'gave me access to new possibilities', not 'created new possibilites'. The second statement implies the crucible created something completely new. And the starbrat says 'it changed me'. Changing an advanced AI is not simple. So it cannot be a simple power supply. The two statements still contradict each other.

Now if that was the only contradiction in the game, I wouldnt have a problem with it. Unfortunatly, there are just a few more contradictions and things that make no sense in this game.

[Ticonderoga117]

maaaze wrote...
i hate these fixed arguements.

No the choices came from the nubble attached to the crucible and released onto the citadel. look at the posted picture.

http://imageshack.us...explainati.png/

Not only is that completely stupid, but that just adds the controls. It does not make the choices.
The choices come from the Citadel.

Geneaux486 wrote...
By chance.  The Crucible was adapted to
work with the Citadel, as told to us by Vendetta.  Way I figure it, the
options it created just happened to appeal to the Catalyst as being
better than its own solution, hence why it was "changed" by them.

EDIT: 
Also we don't know for sure that there wasn't at least one being in all
the cycles that found out about the Catalyst.  Just because no organic
had ever stood directly before it doesn't mean they didn't find out it
was there, blah blah, etc.  Semantics are important when we're trying to
gather hard evidence.  No where is it actually stated that the Catalyst
was a secret to every organic being that's ever lived.

So, you are able to modify the Citadel, the thing NO ONE ever studies so that the Reaper invasion is never discovered before hand, and modify a super-AI that NO ONE has ever known of? Please. It's crap writing.

[Geneaux486]

Then the catalyst would have said something along the lines of 'gave me access to new possibilities', not 'created new possibilites'.

Or it would just say what it actually said. This is a rule you've arbitrarily assigned, not an in-game fact.

The second statement implies the crucible created something completely new.

Implies it to you, but does not outright state it.

The two statements still contradict each other.

There is literally no evidence to support this claim. At no point does the Catalyst say that the Crucible isn't a powersource, or that the Crucible didn't create new possibilities, so there is no definite contradiction.

Now if that was the only contradiction in the game, I wouldnt have a problem with it. Unfortunatly, there are just a few more contradictions and things that make no sense in this game.

It's not a contradiction.

The choices come from the Citadel.

"The Crucible changed me, created new possibilities."  Stated in the game.

the thing NO ONE ever studies so that the Reaper invasion is never discovered before hand, and modify a super-AI that NO ONE has ever known of? Please. It's crap writing.

Where is any of that stated as fact in the game?  The aspects you label as "crap writing" are your own assumptions.

Modifié par Geneaux486, 15 août 2012 - 10:13 .

[BigBadMammogram]

Geneaux486 wrote...

The second statement implies the crucible created something completely new.

Implies it to you, but does not outright state it.

Wtf. "The Crucible changed me, created new possibilities, but I can't make them happen."

How is that not flat out stating that it created something new?

[Ticonderoga117]

Geneaux486 wrote...
Where is any of that stated as fact in the game?  The aspects you label as "crap writing" are your own assumptions.

Simple really. The entire Reaper invasion premise is that no one ever "pokes around" with the tech of the mass relays or Citadel. That's how the Reapers ambush the galaxy every 50K years, because they don't care.

So if suddenly, they are able to do this pre-invasion, the Reaper plot would've been discovered and the threat ended without getting to our cycle.

Post-invasion is impossible. The relays are locked down and most things are utterly erased from the galaxy so that only bits and pieces remain.

[Geneaux486]

Wtf. "The Crucible changed me, created new possibilities, but I can't make them happen."

How is that not flat out stating that it created something new?

My mistake, you were right about that part. Wrong about the rest of it, of course, but right about that part.

The entire Reaper invasion premise is that no one ever "pokes around" with the tech of the mass relays or Citadel. That's how the Reapers ambush the galaxy every 50K years, because they don't care.

So if suddenly, they are able to do this pre-invasion, the Reaper plot would've been discovered and the threat ended without getting to our cycle.

Post-invasion is impossible. The relays are locked down and most things are utterly erased from the galaxy so that only bits and pieces remain.

If what you were saying here was true then Mass Effect 1 would have never happened.

Modifié par Geneaux486, 15 août 2012 - 10:16 .

[AxeloftheKey]

This has probably been brought up, but your argument is missing one key point.

The Crucible is a power source. It provides the extra energy that allows the Citadel to do things that it couldn't before. Those are the new possibilities.

It's quite simple.

[Ticonderoga117]

Geneaux486 wrote...
If what you were saying here was true then Mass Effect 1 would have never happened.

Exactly! Thus, no one could've done the work neccesary to actually DESIGN the dang thing.

[BigBadMammogram]

AxeloftheKey wrote...

This has probably been brought up, but your argument is missing one key point.

The Crucible is a power source. It provides the extra energy that allows the Citadel to do things that it couldn't before. Those are the new possibilities.

It's quite simple.

Go back and read my previous posts.

[Geneaux486]

Ticonderoga117 wrote...

Geneaux486 wrote...
If what you were saying here was true then Mass Effect 1 would have never happened.

Exactly! Thus, no one could've done the work neccesary to actually DESIGN the dang thing.

No I'm saying that if what you were saying about study of the Citadel pre and post-invasion being impossible were true, the game wouldn't have happened.  The first game literally contradicts your argument in and of itself.

[Ticonderoga117]

AxeloftheKey wrote...

This has probably been brought up, but your argument is missing one key point.

The Crucible is a power source. It provides the extra energy that allows the Citadel to do things that it couldn't before. Those are the new possibilities.

It's quite simple.

But they aren't new though. They are old and already there.

Just because I put enough batteries in my remote to actually make it work doesn't mean they are "new" functions.

[Ticonderoga117]

Geneaux486 wrote...
No I'm saying that if what you were saying about study of the Citadel pre and post-invasion being impossible were true, the game wouldn't have happened.  The first game literally contradicts your argument in and of itself.

How?

[BigBadMammogram]

Geneaux486 wrote...


There is literally no evidence to support this claim. At no point does the Catalyst say that the Crucible isn't a powersource,...

"The Crucible changed me, created new possibilities, but I can't make them happen."
A simple power source cant do that.

Geneaux486 wrote...

or that the Crucible didn't create new possibilities, so there is no definite contradiction.

"The Crucible is little more than a powersouce."
Something that can create new possibilities is a hell of a lot more than a power source.

So they still contradict each other.

[Geneaux486]

Ticonderoga117 wrote...

Geneaux486 wrote...
No I'm saying that if what you were saying about study of the Citadel pre and post-invasion being impossible were true, the game wouldn't have happened.  The first game literally contradicts your argument in and of itself.

How?

Because the Protheans unlocked the secrets of Mass Relay technology before the invasion, knew about the Reapers before the invasion, and researched the Citadel post-invasion.  Were they the first species to do anything like that?  We wouldn't know, except for the fact that the Crucible proves that other species before the Protheans had learned at least something about the Citadel and Mass Relays.  This fact doesn't contradict a previously stated fact, as we're never told that no other species ever tried to study these things, it merely fills in missing information where we previously knew nothing for sure.

"The Crucible changed me, created new possibilities, but I can't make them happen."
A simple power source cant do that.

 
Again, this is an arbitrary rule you've assigned to the Mass Effect universe.  Unless you are one of the writers, you lack the authority to pass it off as an in-game fact. 

So they still contradict each other.

 
Not a fact.

Modifié par Geneaux486, 15 août 2012 - 10:23 .

[Ticonderoga117]

Geneaux486 wrote...
Because the Protheans unlocked the secrets of Mass Relay technology before the invasion, knew about the Reapers before the invasion, and researched the Citadel post-invasion.  Were they the first species to do anything like that?  We wouldn't know, except for the fact that the Crucible proves that other species before the Protheans had learned at least something about the Citadel and Mass Relays.  This fact doesn't contradict a previously stated fact, as we're never told that no other species ever tried to study these things, it merely fills in missing information where we previously knew nothing for sure.

They didn't know about the Reapers before hand, because if they did, and since they unlocked the secrets of relay tech, they would've disabled the Citadel relay, which they didn't do.

As soon as the secret is out, and people poke around the Citadel, it wouldn't take long to disengage the relay and stuff the invasion, which was the ENTIRE point of the Citadel reveal in ME1.

[Geneaux486]

Ticonderoga117 wrote...

Geneaux486 wrote...
Because the Protheans unlocked the secrets of Mass Relay technology before the invasion, knew about the Reapers before the invasion, and researched the Citadel post-invasion.  Were they the first species to do anything like that?  We wouldn't know, except for the fact that the Crucible proves that other species before the Protheans had learned at least something about the Citadel and Mass Relays.  This fact doesn't contradict a previously stated fact, as we're never told that no other species ever tried to study these things, it merely fills in missing information where we previously knew nothing for sure.

They didn't know about the Reapers before hand, because if they did, and since they unlocked the secrets of relay tech, they would've disabled the Citadel relay, which they didn't do.

As soon as the secret is out, and people poke around the Citadel, it wouldn't take long to disengage the relay and stuff the invasion, which was the ENTIRE point of the Citadel reveal in ME1.

They knew about the Reapers (it's why they stopped monitoring Sol and the humans in particular, and why they kept Illos off the books), but not about their use of the Citadel.  Their study of the Citadel came after the invasion, their unlocking of the secrets of Mass Relay technology came before.  Beside the point really, as the existence of the Crucible proves to us that at least one other species in another cycle learned enough about the Citadel and Mass Relays to design the Crucible to utilize them.

Modifié par Geneaux486, 15 août 2012 - 10:27 .

[BigBadMammogram]

Geneaux486 wrote...

"The Crucible changed me, created new possibilities, but I can't make them happen."
A simple power source cant do that.

 
Again, this is an arbitrary rule you've assigned to the Mass Effect universe.  Unless you are one of the writers, you lack the authority to pass it off as an in-game fact. 

So they still contradict each other.

 
Not a fact.

No, thats an arbitrary rule assigned to the ENGLISH LANGUAGE. Typically, if you say something like 'a car is little more than a seat', people laugh, because sarcastic understatements are usually funny. Saying a .50 calibur sniper rifle is just 'a way to reach out and touch someone' is another understatment. Saying that something that can modify the most advanced AI in the galaxy is 'little more than a crude power supply' either cannot be taken seriously, or its horrible writing.

[Ticonderoga117]

Geneaux486 wrote...
They knew about the Reapers, but not about their use of the Citadel.  Their study of the Citadel came after the invasion, their unlocking of the secrets of Mass Relay technology came before.  Beside the point really, as the existence of the Crucible proves to us that at least one other species in another cycle learned enough about the Citadel and Mass Relays to design the Crucible to utilize them.

Yeah, and when they had access to the Citadel and found out it's part in the Reaper invasion, they did NOT find evidence of the functions. So, this shows that everything involving the Crucible was thought up in ME3 because "To hell with the Lore that came before, I want my stupid endings!"

Nor did they find evidence of a super-AI inhabitting the Citadel.

And outside of ME3, where was there evidence of the protheans knowing about the Reapers?

[Geneaux486]

No, thats an arbitrary rule assigned to the ENGLISH LANGUAGE.

There is no rule in the english language saying that a peice of unknown, extremely intricate technology in the Mass Effect universe can not function as a powersource while still altering the Catalyst's perception of a situation and making possible new options that were not previously there.  And while we're on the subject, what rule in the english language states that "cutting edge" technology can bring people back from the dead?  It's a work of fiction wherein people can create small gravitational fields with their minds, it's safe to say our laws of physics don't really apply to it.  In other words, you're holding the ending to a higher standard of realism than one would hold to the rest of the game, when in truth the suspension of disbelief required is roughly the same.

Yeah, and when they had access to the Citadel and found out it's part in the Reaper invasion, they did NOT find evidence of the functions. So, this shows that everything involving the Crucible was thought up in ME3 because "To hell with the Lore that came before, I want my stupid endings!"

That's just it though, we only know what the Protheans found, not any previous cycle. That information was missing until Mass Effect 3 when we learned that previous cycles had built and modified the Crucible to use the Citadel to end the Reaper threat. This is not a contradiction, as it fills in a gap in knowlege that we had previously filled with our own assumptions with information that may have contradicted some of them, depending on what you assumed of course. As such, the lore was not contradicted, a blank was merely filled in. 

Modifié par Geneaux486, 15 août 2012 - 10:38 .

[Mazebook]

[quote]Ticonderoga117 wrote...

[quote]maaaze wrote...
i hate these fixed arguements.

No the choices came from the nubble attached to the crucible and released onto the citadel. look at the posted picture.

http://imageshack.us...explainati.png/[/quote]

Not only is that completely stupid, but that just adds the controls. It does not make the choices.
The choices come from the Citadel.

[/quote]
[/quote]

okay .. i give up. nothing will convince you.
If you want to believe the choices come from the citadel/catalyst...fine...it makes no sense whatsoever... and there is visual prove that this is not the case...but fine.

A Good night sleep everyone

[Ticonderoga117]

maaaze wrote...
okay .. i give up. nothing will convince you.
If you want to believe the choices come from the citadel/catalyst...fine...it makes no sense whatsoever... and there is visual prove that this is not the case...but fine.

A Good night sleep everyone

Yeah, because that's what happens. If it wasn't the case, then we wouldn't NEED the Citadel to do anything.

Please try to use some common sense. I know the writers didn't, but that's no excuse.

Geneaux486 wrote...
That's just it though, we only know what
the Protheans found, not any previous cycle. That information was
missing until Mass Effect 3 when we learned that previous cycles had
built and modified the Crucible to use the Citadel to end the Reaper
threat. This is not a contradiction, as it fills in a gap in knowlege
that we had previously filled with our own assumptions with information
that may have contradicted some of them, depending on what you assumed
of course. As such, the lore was not contradicted, a blank was merely
filled in. 

But it makes no sense. How can plans survive that many cycles? It can't. Even so, the Reapers knew about it before, and they knew about it last cycle. The entire Crucible premise is bunk.

[BigBadMammogram]

Geneaux486 wrote...

No, thats an arbitrary rule assigned to the ENGLISH LANGUAGE.

There is no rule in the english language saying that a peice of unknown, extremely intricate technology in the Mass Effect universe....

Never said there was. Read my post again. 

Geneaux486
And while we're on the subject, what rule in the english language states that "cutting edge" technology can bring people back from the dead?  It's a work of fiction wherein people can create small gravitational fields with their minds, it's safe to say our laws of physics don't really apply to it.  In other words, you're holding the ending to a higher standard of realism than one would hold to the rest of the game, when in truth the suspension of disbelief required is roughly the same.

There are so many problems with the story in this game that its impossible to suspend your disbelief. This problem, by itself, would not make me hate the game. Hell, it probably wouldnt even register if it was the only problem. Combine it with the hundreds of other things that are wrong, and now I hate the game.

[Geneaux486]

Ticonderoga117 wrote...
But it makes no sense. How can plans survive that many cycles? It can't. Even so, the Reapers knew about it before, and they knew about it last cycle. The entire Crucible premise is bunk.

You think it makes no sense, I disagree.  Whatever method was used to hide the plans, they did survive (and in my opinion, seeing as how the Reapers operate roughly the exact same way each cycle, the method of hiding the plans that worked in one cycle theoretically should work in all of the other cycles as well).  Maybe it's unlikely, but still possible, and clearly it happened.

There are so many problems with the story in this game that its impossible to suspend your disbelief.

I disagree, and that's basically what our argument boils down to.

Modifié par Geneaux486, 15 août 2012 - 10:50 .

[Ticonderoga117]

Geneaux486 wrote...
You think it makes no sense, I disagree.  Whatever method was used to hide the plans, they did survive (and in my opinion, seeing as how the Reapers operate roughly the exact same way each cycle, the method of hiding the plans that worked in one cycle theoretically should work in all of the other cycles as well).  Maybe it's unlikely, but still possible, and clearly it happened.

But they found them before, and they found them last cycle.

Considering they obviously didn't want the Crucible built those past times, I'd rate the chance of the plans surviving further encounters on the ridiculuously low.

[Geneaux486]

Ticonderoga117 wrote...
But they found them before, and they found them last cycle.

Considering they obviously didn't want the Crucible built those past times, I'd rate the chance of the plans surviving further encounters on the ridiculuously low.

If the plans survive as data being stored and/or broadcast across multiple networks, taking into account possible backups and portable versions (hell, the Illusive Man and the Alliance each had a copy of the Crucible plans, and Vendetta seemed to have them to), it doesn't seem so unlikely to me.  The Protheans tucked the plans away in a system the Reapers had no reason to visit during that extinction cycle, a sound plan that would likely work each time, even if the Reapers got wind of the plans in some form or another.

Modifié par Geneaux486, 15 août 2012 - 10:53 .