545 réponses à ce sujet

[LucasShark]

zambot wrote...

1. Yes, the ending is bad.
2. "It created new options" isn't the worst part about the ending for me. I've always took that particular bit to mean:Shepard created new options. If you can look past the details for a bit, it's all about making Shepard into this god-like hero who has the capability to change everything.

a. Shep can change it by breaking the cycle and proving or disproving the Catalyst's assertion that synthetics will always destroy oranics, betting the entire galaxy on this decision (Destroy)
b. Shep can assume the role of the catalyst and solve the problem him/herself through new techniques (or possibly doomed to eventually arrive at the Catalyst's solution). (Control)
c. Shep can use "Essence" (wtf) to unite the galaxy in peace but doing this sacrifices Shep's life in an irrevocable manner. (Synthesis)

Breaking the cycle in these 3 manners is something that was not possible before Shepard came along. Shepard, by successfully uniting the galaxy and standing in front of the Catalyst proves this to the Catalyst. The Catalyst is now willing to hand the mantle for solving the problem (which he was created to solve) over to Shepard.

All 3 of these things are in fact valid endings, and they could have been really cool and thought provoking. Unfortunately the execution made the details larger than the message.

They COULD be valid endings: cheap, hollow one-shot kills all endings, but endings none the less.  The main problem is they are presented in this swiss cheese of plot holes and contrivance, and in the case of synthesis: total abbandonment of any connection to real universe science.

A far more satasfying ending, and one in line with ME's "unite the galaxy" message would be to win out through conventional alliance.

But all that is off topic.

[LucasShark]

Hannah Montana wrote...

Not to delve too deep into this but the Crucible is one giant plot hole.

This is true.

I like to call it "shepard's second hand lamp", a pre-owned and broken magic lamp which summons a really crappy genie who will only grant 1 of 3 pre-determined and kind of rubbish wishes, or you can chuck it out the airlock.  Of course doing so nets you the booby prize and the game-over ending.

[blueumi]

the protheans chose control and they were all puppets of the reapers and now star child
saren chose synthesis and was a puppet for the reapers and now star child
destroy is the last option whcih up untill shepard never was chosen

there was no new possibility it was just star child doing it's best to trick shepard

[LucasShark]

blueumi wrote...

the protheans chose control and they were all puppets of the reapers and now star child
saren chose synthesis and was a puppet for the reapers and now star child
destroy is the last option whcih up untill shepard never was chosen

there was no new possibility it was just star child doing it's best to trick shepard

Indeed, which begs the question of why would an AI create a machine to facilitate its own destruction and then tell the adversary about it?

[my Aim is True]

The crucible is bad writing

[Cypher_CS]

LucasShark wrote...

This is a pro-ending talking point I want to kill, violently if necessary.

As I understand it, the justification goes something like this:
"The crucible creates new options for the catalyst (how and how these were chosen and who programmed them is left unanswered), but "he can't bring himself to choose" (or somesuch insanity), so he needs Shepard to pick for him."

Wow is that sad.  So a machine who's distinguishing feature (an AI) is the ability to learn, reason and make decisions cannot do one of the 3?  He doesn't even have the "we are conflicted" moment Legion does.

Leaving out all those holes, my MAJOR problem is thus: no, the crucible clearly did NOT "create new options".

How can I know that, simple:
1) It is stated repeatedly that the crucible is effectively a power source, not additonal infrastructure for the citadel or relay network
and 2) it isn't the thing doing the work here.

2 is the big one: the crucible is NOT the thing generating this spacwave of space magic, it is the citadel and the relay network.  Which means they had at least some of this functionality all along.  Since the crucible is an object which we can see does not span the entirety of the citadel, it is not the thing doing the important work here.

Let's take a wi-fi transmitter for example: we can boost the signal with power, we can modulate the signal through programming, but we can't exactly make a pie plate work as a wi-fi hotspot, well save for extensive tinkering.

Here's your answer:
http://social.biowar.../index/12994765 

[tyrvas]

I always thought that the original design for the Catalyst AI has 2 safeguards,
both made by the creators to use, if the Catalyst failed.

Option 1 & 2
Control = overwrite, any solution by Catalyst.
Destroy = Killswitch, shutdown all system.

Crucible = super hack tool, uses lots of power to be able to expose the Catalyst AI and system safeguard commands.

Catalyst offers the 2 original (solutions) commands... (Catalyst: "these are no good Mr.Shep")

but adds the 3rd Synthesis, It seems it can be able to use the power that
the crucible beam is sending into the Citadel.
This beam was never there before, it is not part of the Citadel, the beam is
the only new thing entering into the Citadel, and the Catalyst can reprogram
that power beam with the essence of shepard to create Synthesis the ultimate
solution, according to it.
(Catalyst: "this GOOD Mr Shep, I try to force before not work, maybe I say nicely to you and it work for all. OK")

[davepissedatending]

What the fu## lol the crucible made new options why are you making a argument out of nothing?

[Bill Casey]

Of course it makes no sense...
The catalyst is a repository of doublespeak and logical contradictions...

[LucasShark]

davepissedatending wrote...

What the fu## lol the crucible made new options why are you making a argument out of nothing?

No: it didn't, it provided power to options, the infrastructure for which had already been laid.  READ the previous page.

[Mazebook]

LucasShark wrote...

This is a pro-ending talking point I want to kill, violently if necessary.

As I understand it, the justification goes something like this:
"The crucible creates new options for the catalyst (how and how these were chosen and who programmed them is left unanswered), but "he can't bring himself to choose" (or somesuch insanity), so he needs Shepard to pick for him."

Wow is that sad.  So a machine who's distinguishing feature (an AI) is the ability to learn, reason and make decisions cannot do one of the 3?  He doesn't even have the "we are conflicted" moment Legion does.

Leaving out all those holes, my MAJOR problem is thus: no, the crucible clearly did NOT "create new options".

How can I know that, simple:
1) It is stated repeatedly that the crucible is effectively a power source, not additonal infrastructure for the citadel or relay network
and 2) it isn't the thing doing the work here.

2 is the big one: the crucible is NOT the thing generating this spacwave of space magic, it is the citadel and the relay network.  Which means they had at least some of this functionality all along.  Since the crucible is an object which we can see does not span the entirety of the citadel, it is not the thing doing the important work here.

Let's take a wi-fi transmitter for example: we can boost the signal with power, we can modulate the signal through programming, but we can't exactly make a pie plate work as a wi-fi hotspot, well save for extensive tinkering.

watch the ending again....there are countless lines of dialoge that counter your "arguements"...i will not put in the effort repeating them again...since you show no effort.

1)Crucible is adaptive...in combination with the citadel it (the crucible) creates new possibilites.(which is exactly what the catalyst said btw.)

2) The combination of the two create these possiblities...The crucible was designed with the citadel in mind...The citadel and the relays are just the  the distribution Network. Which is backed up by what the prothean V.I. said.

3.) It is never said that he can´t bring himself to choose. It is stated that he can not make them possible. It is out of his realm of abilities. which is hardprove evidence that he did not create these options. He is forced to accept whatever shaperd chooses because he has no power.

Sorry to say but your arguements are non existant. They contain false imformation and poor guess work.

[clennon8]

Yeah, the "Crucible creating new options" thing is bunk. The Crucible was created to Destroy. Synthesis and Control are Reaper options from a Reaper device affixed to the Reaper-built Citadel. Shooting the tube merely permits the Crucible to do what it was supposed to do in the first place. The other two options need the Crucible's power to work, but they are not functions of the Crucible. They were put there by the Reapers. Congrats. You did what the Reapers wanted.

[Eterna]

Another stupid thread where people pick apart plot points by calling them false even when the game directly contradicts them.

Yawn. You guys are boring now.

Yeah, the "Crucible creating new options" thing is bunk. The Crucible was created to Destroy. Synthesis and Control are Reaper options from a Reaper device affixed to the Reaper-built Citadel. Shooting the tube merely permits the Crucible to do what it was supposed to do in the first place. The other two options need the Crucible's power to work, but they are not functions of the Crucible. They were put there by the Reapers. Congrats. You did what the Reapers wanted.

I'm sure you have mountains of evidence to prove this headcannon.

Modifié par Eterna5, 13 août 2012 - 06:33 .

[LucasShark]

maaaze wrote...

LucasShark wrote...

This is a pro-ending talking point I want to kill, violently if necessary.

As I understand it, the justification goes something like this:
"The crucible creates new options for the catalyst (how and how these were chosen and who programmed them is left unanswered), but "he can't bring himself to choose" (or somesuch insanity), so he needs Shepard to pick for him."

Wow is that sad.  So a machine who's distinguishing feature (an AI) is the ability to learn, reason and make decisions cannot do one of the 3?  He doesn't even have the "we are conflicted" moment Legion does.

Leaving out all those holes, my MAJOR problem is thus: no, the crucible clearly did NOT "create new options".

How can I know that, simple:
1) It is stated repeatedly that the crucible is effectively a power source, not additonal infrastructure for the citadel or relay network
and 2) it isn't the thing doing the work here.

2 is the big one: the crucible is NOT the thing generating this spacwave of space magic, it is the citadel and the relay network.  Which means they had at least some of this functionality all along.  Since the crucible is an object which we can see does not span the entirety of the citadel, it is not the thing doing the important work here.

Let's take a wi-fi transmitter for example: we can boost the signal with power, we can modulate the signal through programming, but we can't exactly make a pie plate work as a wi-fi hotspot, well save for extensive tinkering.

watch the ending again....there are countless lines of dialoge that counter your "arguements"...i will not put in the effort repeating them again...since you show no effort.

1)Crucible is adaptive...in combination with the citadel it (the crucible) creates new possibilites.(which is exactly what the catalyst said btw.)

2) The combination of the two create these possiblities...The crucible was designed with the citadel in mind...The citadel and the relays are just the  the distribution Network. Which is backed up by what the prothean V.I. said.

3.) It is never said that he can´t bring himself to choose. It is stated that he can not make them possible. It is out of his realm of abilities. which is hardprove evidence that he did not create these options. He is forced to accept whatever shaperd chooses because he has no power.

Sorry to say but your arguements are non existant. They contain false imformation and poor guess work.

To quote:
"the crucible is a power source" - starchild

Observation:
the crucible is a discrete piece of technology attached TO the citadel, not intigrated into it, ergo: the infrastructure for any of the 3 options already has been present in the citadel.

QED

[Cypher_CS]

If you're going to quote then quote correctly - "the crucible is little more than a power source".
Slight difference, but a difference there is.

[AlanC9]

Ticonderoga117 wrote...
Because it still solves his "problem" if only temporarily.

So he'll take a couple of centuries and then disaster over the status quo, where he's going to, you know, win?

[clennon8]

Eterna5 wrote...

Another stupid thread where people pick apart plot points by calling them false even when the game directly contradicts them.

Yawn. You guys are boring now.

Yeah, the "Crucible creating new options" thing is bunk. The Crucible was created to Destroy. Synthesis and Control are Reaper options from a Reaper device affixed to the Reaper-built Citadel. Shooting the tube merely permits the Crucible to do what it was supposed to do in the first place. The other two options need the Crucible's power to work, but they are not functions of the Crucible. They were put there by the Reapers. Congrats. You did what the Reapers wanted.

I'm sure you have mountains of evidence to prove this headcannon.

Well, certainly nothing as rock solid as "The Reaper Overlord told me so, so it must be true." 

[Eterna]

clennon8 wrote...

Eterna5 wrote...

Another stupid thread where people pick apart plot points by calling them false even when the game directly contradicts them.

Yawn. You guys are boring now.

Yeah, the "Crucible creating new options" thing is bunk. The Crucible was created to Destroy. Synthesis and Control are Reaper options from a Reaper device affixed to the Reaper-built Citadel. Shooting the tube merely permits the Crucible to do what it was supposed to do in the first place. The other two options need the Crucible's power to work, but they are not functions of the Crucible. They were put there by the Reapers. Congrats. You did what the Reapers wanted.

I'm sure you have mountains of evidence to prove this headcannon.

Well, certainly nothing as rock solid as "The Reaper Overlord told me so, so it must be true." 

The reaper overlord also told you that shooting a tube would kill him, you had no trouble believing him then. 

[eddieoctane]

Samtheman63 wrote...

Ticonderoga117 wrote...

Adanu wrote...

A power source that gave him new options. IT. CREATED. NEW. OPTIONS.

You whiners are just trying to pick apart every little thing even if IN GAME DIRECTLY CONTRIDICTS you.

The Crucible is a big battery. If it was more than that, then why do we need the Citadel? We could just use the Crucible in every system as we move through it.

Oh, that's right, the Citadel has all the options, BECAUSE THE CRUCIBLE IS JUST A BATTERY!

Which opens up the new options

If you have a torch but no battery, you cant turn in it.  Put a battery in and it opens up the possibiilty of you turning it on

The battery doesn't create the ability of the flashlight to illuminate anything. It simply provides enough power for it to work as intended. If the Crucible is just a power supply, it means the ability to do destroy the oy the Reapers, rewrite them, or magically add computer parts to organisms existed in the Citadel before. Makes you wonder if the whole "don't disturb the keepers" thing was a subtle indoctrination effect to prevent people from discovering the red magic wand 2 millenia ago.

[clennon8]

Well, it certainly seemed worth a try. Considerably less silly than grabbing two plasma conduits or throwing yourself off a ledge.

[LucasShark]

eddieoctane wrote...

Samtheman63 wrote...

Ticonderoga117 wrote...

Adanu wrote...

A power source that gave him new options. IT. CREATED. NEW. OPTIONS.

You whiners are just trying to pick apart every little thing even if IN GAME DIRECTLY CONTRIDICTS you.

The Crucible is a big battery. If it was more than that, then why do we need the Citadel? We could just use the Crucible in every system as we move through it.

Oh, that's right, the Citadel has all the options, BECAUSE THE CRUCIBLE IS JUST A BATTERY!

Which opens up the new options

If you have a torch but no battery, you cant turn in it.  Put a battery in and it opens up the possibiilty of you turning it on

The battery doesn't create the ability of the flashlight to illuminate anything. It simply provides enough power for it to work as intended. If the Crucible is just a power supply, it means the ability to do destroy the oy the Reapers, rewrite them, or magically add computer parts to organisms existed in the Citadel before. Makes you wonder if the whole "don't disturb the keepers" thing was a subtle indoctrination effect to prevent people from discovering the red magic wand 2 millenia ago.

As one turian put it: "finally, a human who can hear"

[Mazebook]

LucasShark wrote...

maaaze wrote...

LucasShark wrote...

This is a pro-ending talking point I want to kill, violently if necessary.

As I understand it, the justification goes something like this:
"The crucible creates new options for the catalyst (how and how these were chosen and who programmed them is left unanswered), but "he can't bring himself to choose" (or somesuch insanity), so he needs Shepard to pick for him."

Wow is that sad.  So a machine who's distinguishing feature (an AI) is the ability to learn, reason and make decisions cannot do one of the 3?  He doesn't even have the "we are conflicted" moment Legion does.

Leaving out all those holes, my MAJOR problem is thus: no, the crucible clearly did NOT "create new options".

How can I know that, simple:
1) It is stated repeatedly that the crucible is effectively a power source, not additonal infrastructure for the citadel or relay network
and 2) it isn't the thing doing the work here.

2 is the big one: the crucible is NOT the thing generating this spacwave of space magic, it is the citadel and the relay network.  Which means they had at least some of this functionality all along.  Since the crucible is an object which we can see does not span the entirety of the citadel, it is not the thing doing the important work here.

Let's take a wi-fi transmitter for example: we can boost the signal with power, we can modulate the signal through programming, but we can't exactly make a pie plate work as a wi-fi hotspot, well save for extensive tinkering.

watch the ending again....there are countless lines of dialoge that counter your "arguements"...i will not put in the effort repeating them again...since you show no effort.

1)Crucible is adaptive...in combination with the citadel it (the crucible) creates new possibilites.(which is exactly what the catalyst said btw.)

2) The combination of the two create these possiblities...The crucible was designed with the citadel in mind...The citadel and the relays are just the  the distribution Network. Which is backed up by what the prothean V.I. said.

3.) It is never said that he can´t bring himself to choose. It is stated that he can not make them possible. It is out of his realm of abilities. which is hardprove evidence that he did not create these options. He is forced to accept whatever shaperd chooses because he has no power.

Sorry to say but your arguements are non existant. They contain false imformation and poor guess work.

To quote:
"the crucible is a power source" - starchild

Observation:
the crucible is a discrete piece of technology attached TO the citadel, not intigrated into it, ergo: the infrastructure for any of the 3 options already has been present in the citadel.

QED

1) wrong. it is little more than a power source

2)  However, in combination with the Citadel and the relays, it  (the crucible) is capable of releasing tremendous amounts of energy throughout the galaxy.


It is symbiotic with the citadel. The crucible releases the energy by adapting. adapting means repurposing existing mechanism on the Citadel. which means it changed the citadel to fill the needs the designers of the crucible intended.

3) I wont even get into the whole point that destroy and control don´t even solve his problem so he would have no reason to create these options in the first place. 

Just misquoting a little phrase out of context is no prove for anything.

Modifié par maaaze, 13 août 2012 - 06:48 .

[AngryFrozenWater]

CINCTuchanka wrote...

Why does the Catalyst let you blow him up in Destroy? If someone can explain how the Crucible didn't change the Catalyst while still allowing for the Destroy option I would be much obliged.

Many already think the brat is a hologram. If that's a QEC hologram then the brat could be anywhere - like near or in dark space, far away from an exploding Citadel and any Crucible waves. The brat doesn't die and collapse to the ground, but its image simply flickers for a fraction of a second and the image is gone. That may simply indicate that the QEC connection has been lost. So the brat survives. Maybe with some reapers to keep it company. You know, just as a backup when things go wrong. This solution is using extisting tech, it fits the observations and it takes care of the brat's need for self-preservation. Too bad it will ****** a lot of fans off, because it also works in the other options.

Modifié par AngryFrozenWater, 13 août 2012 - 06:54 .

[Eterna]

clennon8 wrote...

Well, it certainly seemed worth a try. Considerably less silly than grabbing two plasma conduits or throwing yourself off a ledge.

Shooting a conveniently placed tube to destroy the greatest threat the galaxy has ever known is just as silly actually.

[clennon8]

Destroy is built into the Crucible. The RGB apparatus was put there to prevent the Crucible from automatically firing. The Reapers knew about the Crucible and put the apparatus there as a contingency plan. Shooting the tube "breaks" the apparatus and permits the Crucible to fire as intended. Choosing one of the other two options channels the Crucible's power into a Reaper-designed function.

Modifié par clennon8, 14 août 2012 - 06:03 .