545 réponses à ce sujet

[dreman9999]

Darth Death wrote...

robertthebard wrote...

I think they, just like us, would have been surprised by the options.  It's entirely possible that they didn't know that what happened would happen.

And if that's the case, then what were they planning to achieve in the first place? What sort of victory then? LOL do you see what I mean? No one in ME knew how the crucible would resolve the reaper threat, but put 100% blind faith that it could bring victory. That's why the story imo was so silly. 

They comfermed many times it was a weapon...Even Javik did. It was how it stopped the reapers they did not know.

[dreman9999]

robertthebard wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

BigBadMammogram wrote...

Mobius-Silent wrote...

BigBadMammogram wrote...
No, thats an arbitrary rule assigned to the ENGLISH LANGUAGE. Typically, if you say something like 'a car is little more than a seat', people laugh, because sarcastic understatements are usually funny. Saying a .50 calibur sniper rifle is just 'a way to reach out and touch someone' is another understatment. Saying that something that can modify the most advanced AI in the galaxy is 'little more than a crude power supply' either cannot be taken seriously, or its horrible writing.

You could easily say "A car is little more than an internal combustion engine" because the rest is trivial in complexity.

In the same way, destroy, control and synthesis involve only three things

1. Enough power
2. Software 
3. Large enough Mass effect field generators

That is _all_ thats needed. in a situation like that it would be perfectly resonable to say that the Cruble is "Little more that a power source" because that "little more" is the software, dwarfed in complexity by the power supply and the field emmiters but still part of the Crucible.

Simply put, as poorly written as the end of ME3 is, it _can_ make sense after the EC, if you choose to ignore those elements that _let_ the EC make sense that of course, it will seem to make less sense...

No, saying a dirtbike is 'little more than a combustion engine' is accurate, saying that about a car is silly. Believe it or not, the engine is not the most complicated part.

And really big mass effect field generators would not give you the ability to pull off synthesis. How does a mass effect field rewrite synthetics beings? Or DNA? It doesnt, it just changes gravity, and lets you push or pull things around.

For the other two, sure, power and software are the only thing that is required. So why are they brand new, recently created options? The citadel was already a giant mass effect relay, so it had at least enough power to destroy any reaper nearby, and the starbrat can already control the reapers.

The engine is theonly partofthe car that counts it as a car. It matters not if it's not them most complex pat...It the only part the is required for a carto be a car.
Same concept.

This is an inaccurate assessment.  By this logic, having an engine means that you have a car.  I can pull the engine out of my car today, and it would still be a car.  It's not going anywhere under it's own power, but it's still a car.  However, pulling the engine does not suddenly give me two cars.

Regarding the Relays, they are a means to transfer power, by definition.  Relay.  It's interesting to note that a couple of the given definitions actually fit the given function of the Mass Relays.  If Signal A is passed to the Relay, it transmits Signal A to other Relays in the chain, and this is what we see happening on the Galaxy Map in any ending where we actually choose something.  This is also how the Reaper IFF(groan)functions differently from other IFF's that trigger relays.  It transmits a different signal that triggers different responses, in this case, tighter control of the destination.  So no, the ability to transmit a signal, instead of a ship doesn't conflict with the design.

I'm not saying a car is a combution engine. I'm saying acar can be seen as little more than a combution engine. Abd if yoy take your engine out of your car...Will it work?
It stops doing the defining action of a car. If it stops doing that, then it just  a pile of parts.

[Darth Death]

ZajoE38 wrote...

Have you ever heard of switching priorities? Hint - it happens everyday. If you want to have a nap and you friend will call you, he will switch variables, creates a new possibilities. First you were boring and had no other options, now the friend (Crucible) gives you new options - drinking, cinema, fishing.. etc. It will also switch your priorities, you will want to have fun rather than be bored. Same happened with Catalyst he had no other options, but after he realizes what can Crucible do, he was offered with new options. He switched his priorities - suddenly it is better for entire conflict to end it permanently by synthesis. He also had a new variabilities/options, but couldn't do them, he can't interact with physical world, he's software right. So he tried to convince Shepard that synthesis is the best option for everyone. In the end it's up to Shepard/player to consider those decisions. It's easy logics.

Are you trying to compare the complexity of the human race to fixed designs made with a specific purpose? He didn't switch his priorities, his solution merely failed. The crucible along with the mass relays & citadel created a new solution that the star child wasn't even aware of. The star child was dedicated to one solution for a very long time, believing it was the only solution until proven wrong. That's not switching priorities, that's the realization he failed & now has to rely on shep to make a new solution.

[Darth Death]

dreman9999 wrote...

Darth Death wrote...

robertthebard wrote...

I think they, just like us, would have been surprised by the options.  It's entirely possible that they didn't know that what happened would happen.

And if that's the case, then what were they planning to achieve in the first place? What sort of victory then? LOL do you see what I mean? No one in ME knew how the crucible would resolve the reaper threat, but put 100% blind faith that it could bring victory. That's why the story imo was so silly. 

They comfermed many times it was a weapon...Even Javik did. It was how it stopped the reapers they did not know.

That's not what's in question. It was how the crucible was initially intended to be used by the previous races. Was it intended to destroy, control, or synthesis the reapers? We can assume what the other races intentions were, but the game itself doesn't go into specifics (Well, not until the end in shep's cycle). 

[robertthebard]

dreman9999 wrote...

I'm not saying a car is a combution engine. I'm saying acar can be seen as little more than a combution engine. Abd if yoy take your engine out of your car...Will it work?
It stops doing the defining action of a car. If it stops doing that, then it just  a pile of parts.

The engine can work outside of the car, you can put it on a stand, and bench test it.  The car will not go anywhere under it's own power, since there's nothing to drive the transmission to make it do so.  Of course, I have previously pointed this out.  An engine is not the defining part of the car, it's just a part of the car that helps make it move.  Without it, it has no powersource for the drive train.  However, the electrical systems will still function.  You can get the radio to work w/out the engine being in the car, and the lights, hell, even the onboard engine control computer can work, although it's going to overload the diagnostics, since most of the components it's designed to monitor are working.  Actually they are not installed at all, but the onboard computer won't know that, it will just know that it's not functioning.  Did you know, for example, that leaving the gas cap off a modern car, and starting the engine will trigger the Check Engine light?  If it's hooked to a scanner to find out what's triggering the light, it will show that the Mass Air Flow Sensor is defective, and no amount of testing will get it to think it's the gas cap?  The reason?  Vacuum reads are off, since the gas tank can't build up the vacuum, since the cap isn't on.  Vacuum is controlled by the MAF Sensor, so the computer will think it's broken.  I have actually seen this play out twice.

So there is a lot more to a car than just an engine, especially with modern technologies involved in cars.  The running joke in the field is that the only difference between an automotive technician and a doctor is when they wash their hands when they go to the bathroom.  A tech has to wash their hands before they go to the bathroom, as well as after.

[dreman9999]

robertthebard wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

I'm not saying a car is a combution engine. I'm saying acar can be seen as little more than a combution engine. Abd if yoy take your engine out of your car...Will it work?
It stops doing the defining action of a car. If it stops doing that, then it just  a pile of parts.

The engine can work outside of the car, you can put it on a stand, and bench test it.  The car will not go anywhere under it's own power, since there's nothing to drive the transmission to make it do so.  Of course, I have previously pointed this out.  An engine is not the defining part of the car, it's just a part of the car that helps make it move.  Without it, it has no powersource for the drive train.  However, the electrical systems will still function.  You can get the radio to work w/out the engine being in the car, and the lights, hell, even the onboard engine control computer can work, although it's going to overload the diagnostics, since most of the components it's designed to monitor are working.  Actually they are not installed at all, but the onboard computer won't know that, it will just know that it's not functioning.  Did you know, for example, that leaving the gas cap off a modern car, and starting the engine will trigger the Check Engine light?  If it's hooked to a scanner to find out what's triggering the light, it will show that the Mass Air Flow Sensor is defective, and no amount of testing will get it to think it's the gas cap?  The reason?  Vacuum reads are off, since the gas tank can't build up the vacuum, since the cap isn't on.  Vacuum is controlled by the MAF Sensor, so the computer will think it's broken.  I have actually seen this play out twice.

So there is a lot more to a car than just an engine, especially with modern technologies involved in cars.  The running joke in the field is that the only difference between an automotive technician and a doctor is when they wash their hands when they go to the bathroom.  A tech has to wash their hands before they go to the bathroom, as well as after.

I know that...That's my point. A car with out an engine can't move on it's own. It's nothing like the point of a car is if it has no engine. It's nothing more then a combustion engine with extentions on it. The point of a car is not the readio of any of it's additonal features...Those are just addon. I didn't get a car to litens to the radio or for any or it's addition features alone. I got a car for transportation.
If acar can't move on it's own it has no point.

Modifié par dreman9999, 16 août 2012 - 03:19 .

[dreman9999]

Darth Death wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Darth Death wrote...

robertthebard wrote...

I think they, just like us, would have been surprised by the options.  It's entirely possible that they didn't know that what happened would happen.

And if that's the case, then what were they planning to achieve in the first place? What sort of victory then? LOL do you see what I mean? No one in ME knew how the crucible would resolve the reaper threat, but put 100% blind faith that it could bring victory. That's why the story imo was so silly. 

They comfermed many times it was a weapon...Even Javik did. It was how it stopped the reapers they did not know.

That's not what's in question. It was how the crucible was initially intended to be used by the previous races. Was it intended to destroy, control, or synthesis the reapers? We can assume what the other races intentions were, but the game itself doesn't go into specifics (Well, not until the end in shep's cycle). 

But the game did. Both control and destory were stated to be thing the past races or aleast the protheans wanted to do. Synthesis was never originally planned for the crucible and is an idea form the catalyst.

[robertthebard]

dreman9999 wrote...

robertthebard wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

I'm not saying a car is a combution engine. I'm saying acar can be seen as little more than a combution engine. Abd if yoy take your engine out of your car...Will it work?
It stops doing the defining action of a car. If it stops doing that, then it just  a pile of parts.

The engine can work outside of the car, you can put it on a stand, and bench test it.  The car will not go anywhere under it's own power, since there's nothing to drive the transmission to make it do so.  Of course, I have previously pointed this out.  An engine is not the defining part of the car, it's just a part of the car that helps make it move.  Without it, it has no powersource for the drive train.  However, the electrical systems will still function.  You can get the radio to work w/out the engine being in the car, and the lights, hell, even the onboard engine control computer can work, although it's going to overload the diagnostics, since most of the components it's designed to monitor are working.  Actually they are not installed at all, but the onboard computer won't know that, it will just know that it's not functioning.  Did you know, for example, that leaving the gas cap off a modern car, and starting the engine will trigger the Check Engine light?  If it's hooked to a scanner to find out what's triggering the light, it will show that the Mass Air Flow Sensor is defective, and no amount of testing will get it to think it's the gas cap?  The reason?  Vacuum reads are off, since the gas tank can't build up the vacuum, since the cap isn't on.  Vacuum is controlled by the MAF Sensor, so the computer will think it's broken.  I have actually seen this play out twice.

So there is a lot more to a car than just an engine, especially with modern technologies involved in cars.  The running joke in the field is that the only difference between an automotive technician and a doctor is when they wash their hands when they go to the bathroom.  A tech has to wash their hands before they go to the bathroom, as well as after.

I know that...That's my point. A car with out an engine cna't move on it's own. It's nothing like the point of a car is with out the engine. It's nothing more then a combustion engine with extentions on it. The poin tof a car is not the readio of any of it's additonal features...Those are just addon. I didn't get a car to litens to the radio or for any of it's addition features alone. I got a car for transportation.

Man, have we ever derailed this thread.  This is a fun dialog, but I'm going to quit before I get a PM from a mod.

[dreman9999]

robertthebard wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

robertthebard wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

I'm not saying a car is a combution engine. I'm saying acar can be seen as little more than a combution engine. Abd if yoy take your engine out of your car...Will it work?
It stops doing the defining action of a car. If it stops doing that, then it just  a pile of parts.

The engine can work outside of the car, you can put it on a stand, and bench test it.  The car will not go anywhere under it's own power, since there's nothing to drive the transmission to make it do so.  Of course, I have previously pointed this out.  An engine is not the defining part of the car, it's just a part of the car that helps make it move.  Without it, it has no powersource for the drive train.  However, the electrical systems will still function.  You can get the radio to work w/out the engine being in the car, and the lights, hell, even the onboard engine control computer can work, although it's going to overload the diagnostics, since most of the components it's designed to monitor are working.  Actually they are not installed at all, but the onboard computer won't know that, it will just know that it's not functioning.  Did you know, for example, that leaving the gas cap off a modern car, and starting the engine will trigger the Check Engine light?  If it's hooked to a scanner to find out what's triggering the light, it will show that the Mass Air Flow Sensor is defective, and no amount of testing will get it to think it's the gas cap?  The reason?  Vacuum reads are off, since the gas tank can't build up the vacuum, since the cap isn't on.  Vacuum is controlled by the MAF Sensor, so the computer will think it's broken.  I have actually seen this play out twice.

So there is a lot more to a car than just an engine, especially with modern technologies involved in cars.  The running joke in the field is that the only difference between an automotive technician and a doctor is when they wash their hands when they go to the bathroom.  A tech has to wash their hands before they go to the bathroom, as well as after.

I know that...That's my point. A car with out an engine cna't move on it's own. It's nothing like the point of a car is with out the engine. It's nothing more then a combustion engine with extentions on it. The poin tof a car is not the readio of any of it's additonal features...Those are just addon. I didn't get a car to litens to the radio or for any of it's addition features alone. I got a car for transportation.

Man, have we ever derailed this thread.  This is a fun dialog, but I'm going to quit before I get a PM from a mod.

I'll get on point then. The point is the addition do not matter to the decription of the items perpuse. It the catalyst is say it's little more then a power source that just means it say the catalyst base function like how a cars basefuntion is base in it's combustion engine.

[Mazebook]

Just a quick chime in.

I think the Citadel and it´s Relays are not much more than the distribution network.
I think the Crucible could work on its on, with a few modifications but it´s range would be limited. The Galaxy map shows that the Reapers are in every cluster. So to reach them all you have to release the energy throughout the Galaxy.

I know what some may think but remember
The crucible is a one shoot weapon.

Modifié par maaaze, 16 août 2012 - 03:29 .

[robertthebard]

dreman9999 wrote...

robertthebard wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

robertthebard wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

I'm not saying a car is a combution engine. I'm saying acar can be seen as little more than a combution engine. Abd if yoy take your engine out of your car...Will it work?
It stops doing the defining action of a car. If it stops doing that, then it just  a pile of parts.

The engine can work outside of the car, you can put it on a stand, and bench test it.  The car will not go anywhere under it's own power, since there's nothing to drive the transmission to make it do so.  Of course, I have previously pointed this out.  An engine is not the defining part of the car, it's just a part of the car that helps make it move.  Without it, it has no powersource for the drive train.  However, the electrical systems will still function.  You can get the radio to work w/out the engine being in the car, and the lights, hell, even the onboard engine control computer can work, although it's going to overload the diagnostics, since most of the components it's designed to monitor are working.  Actually they are not installed at all, but the onboard computer won't know that, it will just know that it's not functioning.  Did you know, for example, that leaving the gas cap off a modern car, and starting the engine will trigger the Check Engine light?  If it's hooked to a scanner to find out what's triggering the light, it will show that the Mass Air Flow Sensor is defective, and no amount of testing will get it to think it's the gas cap?  The reason?  Vacuum reads are off, since the gas tank can't build up the vacuum, since the cap isn't on.  Vacuum is controlled by the MAF Sensor, so the computer will think it's broken.  I have actually seen this play out twice.

So there is a lot more to a car than just an engine, especially with modern technologies involved in cars.  The running joke in the field is that the only difference between an automotive technician and a doctor is when they wash their hands when they go to the bathroom.  A tech has to wash their hands before they go to the bathroom, as well as after.

I know that...That's my point. A car with out an engine cna't move on it's own. It's nothing like the point of a car is with out the engine. It's nothing more then a combustion engine with extentions on it. The poin tof a car is not the readio of any of it's additonal features...Those are just addon. I didn't get a car to litens to the radio or for any of it's addition features alone. I got a car for transportation.

Man, have we ever derailed this thread.  This is a fun dialog, but I'm going to quit before I get a PM from a mod.

I'll get on point then. The point is the addition do not matter to the decription of the items perpuse. It the catalyst is say it's little more then a power source that just means it say the catalyst base function like how a cars basefuntion is base in it's combustion engine.

It actually says more than that about the Crucible.  Check out the dialog at 7:25 in this video

[dreman9999]

robertthebard wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

robertthebard wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

robertthebard wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

I'm not saying a car is a combution engine. I'm saying acar can be seen as little more than a combution engine. Abd if yoy take your engine out of your car...Will it work?
It stops doing the defining action of a car. If it stops doing that, then it just  a pile of parts.

The engine can work outside of the car, you can put it on a stand, and bench test it.  The car will not go anywhere under it's own power, since there's nothing to drive the transmission to make it do so.  Of course, I have previously pointed this out.  An engine is not the defining part of the car, it's just a part of the car that helps make it move.  Without it, it has no powersource for the drive train.  However, the electrical systems will still function.  You can get the radio to work w/out the engine being in the car, and the lights, hell, even the onboard engine control computer can work, although it's going to overload the diagnostics, since most of the components it's designed to monitor are working.  Actually they are not installed at all, but the onboard computer won't know that, it will just know that it's not functioning.  Did you know, for example, that leaving the gas cap off a modern car, and starting the engine will trigger the Check Engine light?  If it's hooked to a scanner to find out what's triggering the light, it will show that the Mass Air Flow Sensor is defective, and no amount of testing will get it to think it's the gas cap?  The reason?  Vacuum reads are off, since the gas tank can't build up the vacuum, since the cap isn't on.  Vacuum is controlled by the MAF Sensor, so the computer will think it's broken.  I have actually seen this play out twice.

So there is a lot more to a car than just an engine, especially with modern technologies involved in cars.  The running joke in the field is that the only difference between an automotive technician and a doctor is when they wash their hands when they go to the bathroom.  A tech has to wash their hands before they go to the bathroom, as well as after.

I know that...That's my point. A car with out an engine cna't move on it's own. It's nothing like the point of a car is with out the engine. It's nothing more then a combustion engine with extentions on it. The poin tof a car is not the readio of any of it's additonal features...Those are just addon. I didn't get a car to litens to the radio or for any of it's addition features alone. I got a car for transportation.

Man, have we ever derailed this thread.  This is a fun dialog, but I'm going to quit before I get a PM from a mod.

I'll get on point then. The point is the addition do not matter to the decription of the items perpuse. It the catalyst is say it's little more then a power source that just means it say the catalyst base function like how a cars basefuntion is base in it's combustion engine.

It actually says more than that about the Crucible.  Check out the dialog at 7:25 in this video

And that just means it's not effective or as effective without the citadel network. Like how an Arrow is not effective or as effective without a bow. And Arrow is nothing more then a short stick with a point on it without a bow.

Modifié par dreman9999, 16 août 2012 - 03:45 .

[dreman9999]

maaaze wrote...

Just a quick chime in.

I think the Citadel and it´s Relays are not much more than the distribution network.
I think the Crucible could work on its on, with a few modifications but it´s range would be limited. The Galaxy map shows that the Reapers are in every cluster. So to reach them all you have to release the energy throughout the Galaxy.

I know what some may think but remember
The crucible is a one shoot weapon.

That's exactly it. But it would not e effective that way.

[robertthebard]

dreman9999 wrote...

And that just means it's not effective or as effective without the citadel network. Like how an Arrow is not effective or as effective without a bow. And Arrow is nothing more then a short stick with a point on it without a bow.

Which means that it's more than just a power source.  That is stated quite plainly in the text that is conveniently provided on the video.  I said something about that yesterday, and interestingly enough, looked at that video due to a link in another thread about another topic.  What we have in this thread is essentially a cherry pick of that conversation to support an idea.

While the Crucible may not have directly created the new options, it does affect changes in the system that do create new options.  Back to my 1 + 1 + 1 vs 3 thing I pointed out earlier.  We no long have Crucible over here, Citadel over there and relays, but a new closed system.  The choices are a direct result of the new closed system.  It's like adding a supercharger to an Eclipse, the Eclipse is a nice sporty car w/out one, but with one, it's a whole new animal, even though it's exactly the same except for the supercharger.  A supercharger is little more than a power source to, but it makes a change in the overall performance of the vehicle it's installed on, just as the Crucible changes the system it's installed into.  It creates a new system, with new possibilities.

[Mcfly616]

The Crucible simply allows you to choose in what form you want to harness and direct the Citadels energy.....without the Crucible, those choices wouldn't be there.....

[dreman9999]

robertthebard wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

And that just means it's not effective or as effective without the citadel network. Like how an Arrow is not effective or as effective without a bow. And Arrow is nothing more then a short stick with a point on it without a bow.

Which means that it's more than just a power source.  That is stated quite plainly in the text that is conveniently provided on the video.  I said something about that yesterday, and interestingly enough, looked at that video due to a link in another thread about another topic.  What we have in this thread is essentially a cherry pick of that conversation to support an idea.

While the Crucible may not have directly created the new options, it does affect changes in the system that do create new options.  Back to my 1 + 1 + 1 vs 3 thing I pointed out earlier.  We no long have Crucible over here, Citadel over there and relays, but a new closed system.  The choices are a direct result of the new closed system.  It's like adding a supercharger to an Eclipse, the Eclipse is a nice sporty car w/out one, but with one, it's a whole new animal, even though it's exactly the same except for the supercharger.  A supercharger is little more than a power source to, but it makes a change in the overall performance of the vehicle it's installed on, just as the Crucible changes the system it's installed into.  It creates a new system, with new possibilities.

No it does not. The statement is refered to if its by itself. With the citadel it more than what it is. With out the citadel it's nothing more then a power source. It just saying it's an up grade. An upgrade by it's self does nothing. 

[dreman9999]

Mcfly616 wrote...

The Crucible simply allows you to choose in what form you want to harness and direct the Citadels energy.....without the Crucible, those choices wouldn't be there.....

Yes...This one gets it. except for the fact that the power comes for the crucible.

[robertthebard]

dreman9999 wrote...

robertthebard wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

And that just means it's not effective or as effective without the citadel network. Like how an Arrow is not effective or as effective without a bow. And Arrow is nothing more then a short stick with a point on it without a bow.

Which means that it's more than just a power source.  That is stated quite plainly in the text that is conveniently provided on the video.  I said something about that yesterday, and interestingly enough, looked at that video due to a link in another thread about another topic.  What we have in this thread is essentially a cherry pick of that conversation to support an idea.

While the Crucible may not have directly created the new options, it does affect changes in the system that do create new options.  Back to my 1 + 1 + 1 vs 3 thing I pointed out earlier.  We no long have Crucible over here, Citadel over there and relays, but a new closed system.  The choices are a direct result of the new closed system.  It's like adding a supercharger to an Eclipse, the Eclipse is a nice sporty car w/out one, but with one, it's a whole new animal, even though it's exactly the same except for the supercharger.  A supercharger is little more than a power source to, but it makes a change in the overall performance of the vehicle it's installed on, just as the Crucible changes the system it's installed into.  It creates a new system, with new possibilities.

No it does not. The statement is refered to if its by itself. With the citadel it more than what it is. With out the citadel it's nothing more then a power source. It just saying it's an up grade. An upgrade by it's self does nothing. 

Wait, what?  By definition an upgrade is an improvement.  Since we're not talking about individual components any more, then an upgrade improves the system, that's why it's called an upgrade, isn't it?  It's fairly obvious that we're not talking about individual components since the Crucible is attached to the Citadel, so the upgrade has been applied, therefore, by definition, it's changing the system.

[dreman9999]

robertthebard wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

robertthebard wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

And that just means it's not effective or as effective without the citadel network. Like how an Arrow is not effective or as effective without a bow. And Arrow is nothing more then a short stick with a point on it without a bow.

Which means that it's more than just a power source.  That is stated quite plainly in the text that is conveniently provided on the video.  I said something about that yesterday, and interestingly enough, looked at that video due to a link in another thread about another topic.  What we have in this thread is essentially a cherry pick of that conversation to support an idea.

While the Crucible may not have directly created the new options, it does affect changes in the system that do create new options.  Back to my 1 + 1 + 1 vs 3 thing I pointed out earlier.  We no long have Crucible over here, Citadel over there and relays, but a new closed system.  The choices are a direct result of the new closed system.  It's like adding a supercharger to an Eclipse, the Eclipse is a nice sporty car w/out one, but with one, it's a whole new animal, even though it's exactly the same except for the supercharger.  A supercharger is little more than a power source to, but it makes a change in the overall performance of the vehicle it's installed on, just as the Crucible changes the system it's installed into.  It creates a new system, with new possibilities.

No it does not. The statement is refered to if its by itself. With the citadel it more than what it is. With out the citadel it's nothing more then a power source. It just saying it's an up grade. An upgrade by it's self does nothing. 

Wait, what?  By definition an upgrade is an improvement.  Since we're not talking about individual components any more, then an upgrade improves the system, that's why it's called an upgrade, isn't it?  It's fairly obvious that we're not talking about individual components since the Crucible is attached to the Citadel, so the upgrade has been applied, therefore, by definition, it's changing the system.

But he is talking about that.

"The device you know as the crucible is little  more than a power source. however with the combination of the citadel and the mass relays it is capable of relasing a tremendous amount of energy throughout the galexy."

Look at the entire comment. He is basicly saying that the citadel and the crucible combined is a weapon. The first comment is directily taking about what the crucible is by itself.

Modifié par dreman9999, 16 août 2012 - 04:17 .

[robertthebard]

dreman9999 wrote...

robertthebard wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

robertthebard wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

And that just means it's not effective or as effective without the citadel network. Like how an Arrow is not effective or as effective without a bow. And Arrow is nothing more then a short stick with a point on it without a bow.

Which means that it's more than just a power source.  That is stated quite plainly in the text that is conveniently provided on the video.  I said something about that yesterday, and interestingly enough, looked at that video due to a link in another thread about another topic.  What we have in this thread is essentially a cherry pick of that conversation to support an idea.

While the Crucible may not have directly created the new options, it does affect changes in the system that do create new options.  Back to my 1 + 1 + 1 vs 3 thing I pointed out earlier.  We no long have Crucible over here, Citadel over there and relays, but a new closed system.  The choices are a direct result of the new closed system.  It's like adding a supercharger to an Eclipse, the Eclipse is a nice sporty car w/out one, but with one, it's a whole new animal, even though it's exactly the same except for the supercharger.  A supercharger is little more than a power source to, but it makes a change in the overall performance of the vehicle it's installed on, just as the Crucible changes the system it's installed into.  It creates a new system, with new possibilities.

No it does not. The statement is refered to if its by itself. With the citadel it more than what it is. With out the citadel it's nothing more then a power source. It just saying it's an up grade. An upgrade by it's self does nothing. 

Wait, what?  By definition an upgrade is an improvement.  Since we're not talking about individual components any more, then an upgrade improves the system, that's why it's called an upgrade, isn't it?  It's fairly obvious that we're not talking about individual components since the Crucible is attached to the Citadel, so the upgrade has been applied, therefore, by definition, it's changing the system.

But he is talking about that.

"The device you know as the crucible is little  more than a power source. however with the combination of the citadel and the mass relays it is capable of relasing a tremendous amount of energy throughout the galexy."

Look at the entire comment. He is basicly saying that the citadel and the crucible combined is a weapon. The first comment is directily taking about what the crucible is by itself.

Right, but since we never talk to SC when the Crucible is by itself, he's talking about the new closed system we created when we added the upgrade, or more accurately what it is capable of now.  Since this is new, with the inclusion of the upgrade, then the new options are part of the new system, and not necessarily part of either individual component.  I really think we're kind of saying the same thing here, though, in different ways, since yes, the new unit created by joining the Crucible to the relay system via the Citadel is a weapon.  The Crucible generates the energy, RGB initially, and the Citadel allows the Crucible to pass that signal through the Relays.  Since the relays are more or less transmitters, this isn't inconsistent with what we know about them already, as I addressed earlier.  We can see that at work in the endings if we choose any of them other than Refusal.

[dreman9999]

Ticonderoga117 wrote...

An analogy.
What some people think the Crucible is:

The Crucible and Citadel + Relays:


What the Crucible really is:

Exactly, which is why the catalyst called the crucible a mere power source.