Eterna5 wrote...
clennon8 wrote...
Well, it certainly seemed worth a try. Considerably less silly than grabbing two plasma conduits or throwing yourself off a ledge.
Shooting a conveniently placed tube to destroy the greatest threat the galaxy has ever known is just as silly actually.
maaaze wrote...
LucasShark wrote...
maaaze wrote...
LucasShark wrote...
This is a pro-ending talking point I want to kill, violently if necessary.
As I understand it, the justification goes something like this:
"The crucible creates new options for the catalyst (how and how these were chosen and who programmed them is left unanswered), but "he can't bring himself to choose" (or somesuch insanity), so he needs Shepard to pick for him."
Wow is that sad. So a machine who's distinguishing feature (an AI) is the ability to learn, reason and make decisions cannot do one of the 3? He doesn't even have the "we are conflicted" moment Legion does.
Leaving out all those holes, my MAJOR problem is thus: no, the crucible clearly did NOT "create new options".
How can I know that, simple:
1) It is stated repeatedly that the crucible is effectively a power source, not additonal infrastructure for the citadel or relay network
and 2) it isn't the thing doing the work here.
2 is the big one: the crucible is NOT the thing generating this spacwave of space magic, it is the citadel and the relay network. Which means they had at least some of this functionality all along. Since the crucible is an object which we can see does not span the entirety of the citadel, it is not the thing doing the important work here.
Let's take a wi-fi transmitter for example: we can boost the signal with power, we can modulate the signal through programming, but we can't exactly make a pie plate work as a wi-fi hotspot, well save for extensive tinkering.
watch the ending again....there are countless lines of dialoge that counter your "arguements"...i will not put in the effort repeating them again...since you show no effort.
1)Crucible is adaptive...in combination with the citadel it (the crucible) creates new possibilites.(which is exactly what the catalyst said btw.)
2) The combination of the two create these possiblities...The crucible was designed with the citadel in mind...The citadel and the relays are just the the distribution Network. Which is backed up by what the prothean V.I. said.
3.) It is never said that he can´t bring himself to choose. It is stated that he can not make them possible. It is out of his realm of abilities. which is hardprove evidence that he did not create these options. He is forced to accept whatever shaperd chooses because he has no power.
Sorry to say but your arguements are non existant. They contain false imformation and poor guess work.
To quote:
"the crucible is a power source" - starchild
Observation:
the crucible is a discrete piece of technology attached TO the citadel, not intigrated into it, ergo: the infrastructure for any of the 3 options already has been present in the citadel.
QED
1) wrong. it is little more than a power source
2) However, in combination with the Citadel and the relays, it (the crucible) is capable of releasing tremendous amounts of energy throughout the galaxy.
It is symbiotic with the citadel. The crucible releases the energy by adapting. adapting means repurposing existing mechanism on the Citadel. which means it changed the citadel to fill the needs the designers of the crucible intended.
3) I wont even get into the whole point that destroy and control don´t even solve his problem so he would have no reason to create these options in the first place.
Just misquoting a little phrase out of context is no prove for anything.
AngryFrozenWater wrote...
Many already think the brat is a hologram. If that's a QEC hologram then the brat could be anywhere - like near or in dark space, far away from an exploding Citadel and any Crucible waves. The brat doesn't die and collapse to the ground, but its image simply flickers for a fraction of a second and the image is gone. That may simply indicate that the QEC connection has been lost. So the brat survives. Maybe with some reapers to keep it company. You know, just as a backup when things go wrong. This solution is using extisting tech, it fits the observations and it takes care of the brat's need for self-preservation. Too bad it will ****** a lot of fans off, because it also works in the other options.CINCTuchanka wrote...
Why does the Catalyst let you blow him up in Destroy? If someone can explain how the Crucible didn't change the Catalyst while still allowing for the Destroy option I would be much obliged.
clennon8 wrote...
Destroy is built into the Crucible. The RGB apparatus was put there to prevent the Crucible from automatically firing. The Reapers knew about the Crucible and put the apparatus there as a contingency plan. Shooting the tube "breaks" the apparatus and permits the Crucible to fire as intended. Choosing one the other two options channels the Crucible's power into a Reaper-designed function.
eddieoctane wrote...
clennon8 wrote...
Destroy is built into the Crucible. The RGB apparatus was put there to prevent the Crucible from automatically firing. The Reapers knew about the Crucible and put the apparatus there as a contingency plan. Shooting the tube "breaks" the apparatus and permits the Crucible to fire as intended. Choosing one the other two options channels the Crucible's power into a Reaper-designed function.
The Catalyst's platform was part of the Citadel. Logically, the power conduit you need to shoot and the control handles are also parts of the Citadel. This would mean the systems were alreayd in place and just lacked the power to function until the Crucible was attached.
CINCTuchanka wrote...
"The Crucible changed me. Created new....possibilties. But I can't make them happen."
I will just leave this here.
clennon8 wrote...
eddieoctane wrote...
clennon8 wrote...
Destroy is built into the Crucible. The RGB apparatus was put there to prevent the Crucible from automatically firing. The Reapers knew about the Crucible and put the apparatus there as a contingency plan. Shooting the tube "breaks" the apparatus and permits the Crucible to fire as intended. Choosing one the other two options channels the Crucible's power into a Reaper-designed function.
The Catalyst's platform was part of the Citadel. Logically, the power conduit you need to shoot and the control handles are also parts of the Citadel. This would mean the systems were alreayd in place and just lacked the power to function until the Crucible was attached.
I'm with you on the Control handles, but shooting a tube does not smack of activating something. It smacks of DEactivating something. That tube isn't an on/off button. It's a circuit-breaker. It was placed there to prevent the Crucible from firing.
Also, can I just point out how silly it would be for Destroy to be built into the Citadel in the first place? The Reapers built a "Kill us" function into the Citadel, just waiting for someone to come along with really big battery and wipe them out? No. Destroy comes from the Crucible. The Crucible is a weapon of mass destruction.
As far as I know it is using existing tech, fits the observations and takes care of the brat's need for self-preservation. From the brat's point of view it is not only possible, but it would be logical to go about the whole thing that way. It can still monitor the situation and it can act when something goes wrong. Looks fine to me.LucasShark wrote...
So not only is it a magic "make the problem go away" lamp of plot contrivance: it's a defective one... brilliant.AngryFrozenWater wrote...
Many already think the brat is a hologram. If that's a QEC hologram then the brat could be anywhere - like near or in dark space, far away from an exploding Citadel and any Crucible waves. The brat doesn't die and collapse to the ground, but its image simply flickers for a fraction of a second and the image is gone. That may simply indicate that the QEC connection has been lost. So the brat survives. Maybe with some reapers to keep it company. You know, just as a backup when things go wrong. This solution is using extisting tech, it fits the observations and it takes care of the brat's need for self-preservation. Too bad it will ****** a lot of fans off, because it also works in the other options.CINCTuchanka wrote...
Why does the Catalyst let you blow him up in Destroy? If someone can explain how the Crucible didn't change the Catalyst while still allowing for the Destroy option I would be much obliged.
Modifié par AngryFrozenWater, 13 août 2012 - 07:22 .
LucasShark wrote...
maaaze wrote...
LucasShark wrote...
maaaze wrote...
LucasShark wrote...
This is a pro-ending talking point I want to kill, violently if necessary.
As I understand it, the justification goes something like this:
"The crucible creates new options for the catalyst (how and how these were chosen and who programmed them is left unanswered), but "he can't bring himself to choose" (or somesuch insanity), so he needs Shepard to pick for him."
Wow is that sad. So a machine who's distinguishing feature (an AI) is the ability to learn, reason and make decisions cannot do one of the 3? He doesn't even have the "we are conflicted" moment Legion does.
Leaving out all those holes, my MAJOR problem is thus: no, the crucible clearly did NOT "create new options".
How can I know that, simple:
1) It is stated repeatedly that the crucible is effectively a power source, not additonal infrastructure for the citadel or relay network
and 2) it isn't the thing doing the work here.
2 is the big one: the crucible is NOT the thing generating this spacwave of space magic, it is the citadel and the relay network. Which means they had at least some of this functionality all along. Since the crucible is an object which we can see does not span the entirety of the citadel, it is not the thing doing the important work here.
Let's take a wi-fi transmitter for example: we can boost the signal with power, we can modulate the signal through programming, but we can't exactly make a pie plate work as a wi-fi hotspot, well save for extensive tinkering.
watch the ending again....there are countless lines of dialoge that counter your "arguements"...i will not put in the effort repeating them again...since you show no effort.
1)Crucible is adaptive...in combination with the citadel it (the crucible) creates new possibilites.(which is exactly what the catalyst said btw.)
2) The combination of the two create these possiblities...The crucible was designed with the citadel in mind...The citadel and the relays are just the the distribution Network. Which is backed up by what the prothean V.I. said.
3.) It is never said that he can´t bring himself to choose. It is stated that he can not make them possible. It is out of his realm of abilities. which is hardprove evidence that he did not create these options. He is forced to accept whatever shaperd chooses because he has no power.
Sorry to say but your arguements are non existant. They contain false imformation and poor guess work.
To quote:
"the crucible is a power source" - starchild
Observation:
the crucible is a discrete piece of technology attached TO the citadel, not intigrated into it, ergo: the infrastructure for any of the 3 options already has been present in the citadel.
QED
1) wrong. it is little more than a power source
2) However, in combination with the Citadel and the relays, it (the crucible) is capable of releasing tremendous amounts of energy throughout the galaxy.
It is symbiotic with the citadel. The crucible releases the energy by adapting. adapting means repurposing existing mechanism on the Citadel. which means it changed the citadel to fill the needs the designers of the crucible intended.
3) I wont even get into the whole point that destroy and control don´t even solve his problem so he would have no reason to create these options in the first place.
Just misquoting a little phrase out of context is no prove for anything.
1) oh sorry "little more" so the battery has a label and contacts
2) that's the point: the citadel has this infrastructure in place before the crucible was even a word in our language
3) What problem? The manufactured one created by that AI brat through circular reasoning and logical falicy?
Modifié par maaaze, 13 août 2012 - 07:27 .
D24O wrote...
How f***ing stupid would all of the Galaxy's engineers have to be to not notice mechanisms to control the Reapers, destroy all synthetic life, and to do whatever the f*** Synthesis does.
D24O wrote...
How f***ing stupid would all of the Galaxy's engineers have to be to not notice mechanisms to control the Reapers, destroy all synthetic life, and to do whatever the f*** Synthesis does.
D24O wrote...
How f***ing stupid would all of the Galaxy's engineers have to be to not notice mechanisms to control the Reapers, destroy all synthetic life, and to do whatever the f*** Synthesis does.
maaaze wrote...
1) yes it is important to quote accurate because it changes the whole meaning.
How about "little more" does not only imply label and contacts (which a power source would need anyway and therefore would be implied with the statement "it is just a powersource") but a routing system that determents what parts of the citadel is powered by this energy. Maybe overloading certain part so they act differently when a certain tube gets destroyed.
2) yes that is the point. It changes the Citadel to do things it was not intended. Like filling up a hairdryer with little sharp objects. The hairdryer is now a weapon. So is the Citadel.
3. Don´t understand this point. can you make this clearer? The problem that synthetics would destroy all organics at one point. the whole reason he was constructed.
Ticonderoga117 wrote...
D24O wrote...
How f***ing stupid would all of the Galaxy's engineers have to be to not notice mechanisms to control the Reapers, destroy all synthetic life, and to do whatever the f*** Synthesis does.
About as stupid as not testing a device that hinges the entire plan to save the galaxy together.
Oh wait...
LucasShark wrote...
maaaze wrote...
1) yes it is important to quote accurate because it changes the whole meaning.
How about "little more" does not only imply label and contacts (which a power source would need anyway and therefore would be implied with the statement "it is just a powersource") but a routing system that determents what parts of the citadel is powered by this energy. Maybe overloading certain part so they act differently when a certain tube gets destroyed.
2) yes that is the point. It changes the Citadel to do things it was not intended. Like filling up a hairdryer with little sharp objects. The hairdryer is now a weapon. So is the Citadel.
3. Don´t understand this point. can you make this clearer? The problem that synthetics would destroy all organics at one point. the whole reason he was constructed.
1) "little more" is coloquially a derogitory term, "you are little more than a ____" for example, it means this element is neglidgable, not the crux of its functionality. This is how the english language works.
2) "changes the Citadel to do things it was not intended", except: it clearly was intended to do them, as pointed out by others: the catalyst's chambers, the red pipe, the control handles, all are part of the citadel, not introduced by the crucible. Ergo: the infrastructure to facilitate at least these two options was hard-wired into the citadel from its construction.
3) The point: is that is an absolutely idiotic problem to have, as it is nonsensical. It relies on the use of a probability as though it were a known fact, ie: "the created shall ALWAYS rebel against their creators",. Appealing to probability as though it were a demonstrated fact is a logical falicy, an invalid argument. Simaltainously it is idiotic to claim that any synthetic race could utterly stop organic life from spontainously evolving everywhere in the galaxy as stars are born and die all the time, along with their solar systems. Short of pulling a Davros (a biological life form by the way) and utterly destroying all matter in the universe, this is not a problem.
clennon8 wrote...
One other thing I want to throw out there... Regarding to the inherent silliness of the how the whole decision chamber is arranged, I don't disagree. I chalk it up to the level designers being cute and trying to make the decision chamber look like a dialogue wheel (which it does when viewed from above).
clennon8 wrote...
One other thing I want to throw out there... Regarding to the inherent silliness of the how the whole decision chamber is arranged, I don't disagree. I chalk it up to the level designers being cute and trying to make the decision chamber look like a dialogue wheel (which it does when viewed from above).
maaaze wrote...
LucasShark wrote...
maaaze wrote...
1) yes it is important to quote accurate because it changes the whole meaning.
How about "little more" does not only imply label and contacts (which a power source would need anyway and therefore would be implied with the statement "it is just a powersource") but a routing system that determents what parts of the citadel is powered by this energy. Maybe overloading certain part so they act differently when a certain tube gets destroyed.
2) yes that is the point. It changes the Citadel to do things it was not intended. Like filling up a hairdryer with little sharp objects. The hairdryer is now a weapon. So is the Citadel.
3. Don´t understand this point. can you make this clearer? The problem that synthetics would destroy all organics at one point. the whole reason he was constructed.
1) "little more" is coloquially a derogitory term, "you are little more than a ____" for example, it means this element is neglidgable, not the crux of its functionality. This is how the english language works.
2) "changes the Citadel to do things it was not intended", except: it clearly was intended to do them, as pointed out by others: the catalyst's chambers, the red pipe, the control handles, all are part of the citadel, not introduced by the crucible. Ergo: the infrastructure to facilitate at least these two options was hard-wired into the citadel from its construction.
3) The point: is that is an absolutely idiotic problem to have, as it is nonsensical. It relies on the use of a probability as though it were a known fact, ie: "the created shall ALWAYS rebel against their creators",. Appealing to probability as though it were a demonstrated fact is a logical falicy, an invalid argument. Simaltainously it is idiotic to claim that any synthetic race could utterly stop organic life from spontainously evolving everywhere in the galaxy as stars are born and die all the time, along with their solar systems. Short of pulling a Davros (a biological life form by the way) and utterly destroying all matter in the universe, this is not a problem.
1) little more =! just
2) Do you know what repuporsed means?
3) no it is a mathematics. something a Synthetic understands best. We always decide with what is most likely. If you have infininte time. the probabilty rises. In a universe where relays exists your points are mute. Still does not explain why he would create these choices...they go against everything he stands for.
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