545 réponses à ce sujet

[Steve The Seal]

 The most stupid thing is that he actually tells you about these options, when it is so blatantly obvious that the brat does not want Control and Destroy to happen... He could simply say:

"You can only avoid this destiny by merging with some green neon! Decide mortal!"

Shep is in an unknown position... Shep only nows that there are these 3 options, because of the Brat himself voluntarily reveals them, even the undesirable... 

[AngryFrozenWater]

LucasShark wrote...

This is a pro-ending talking point I want to kill, violently if necessary.

As I understand it, the justification goes something like this:
"The crucible creates new options for the catalyst (how and how these were chosen and who programmed them is left unanswered), but "he can't bring himself to choose" (or somesuch insanity), so he needs Shepard to pick for him."

Wow is that sad.  So a machine who's distinguishing feature (an AI) is the ability to learn, reason and make decisions cannot do one of the 3?  He doesn't even have the "we are conflicted" moment Legion does.

Leaving out all those holes, my MAJOR problem is thus: no, the crucible clearly did NOT "create new options".

How can I know that, simple:
1) It is stated repeatedly that the crucible is effectively a power source, not additonal infrastructure for the citadel or relay network
and 2) it isn't the thing doing the work here.

2 is the big one: the crucible is NOT the thing generating this spacwave of space magic, it is the citadel and the relay network.  Which means they had at least some of this functionality all along.  Since the crucible is an object which we can see does not span the entirety of the citadel, it is not the thing doing the important work here.

Let's take a wi-fi transmitter for example: we can boost the signal with power, we can modulate the signal through programming, but we can't exactly make a pie plate work as a wi-fi hotspot, well save for extensive tinkering.

Here's what I think...

As far as I can tell the Crucible interfaces with the Citadel perfectly. The brat even build the three platforms and an elevator to bring an organic up there. The brat also claims that the Citadel is part of the brat and that it is its home. So, if the brat didn't build that then it knew about it and yet it didn't remove it. So, it must at least condone its existence.

Further more, the Crucible is described by the brat as merely a crude power source, effective and adaptive in its design. Although it claims that the Crucible had organic origins, that can be just half of the truth. Starships and weapons, as an example, are also created by organics. Yet, they are based on reaper technology. There is no reason why the plans and refinements for the Crucible couldn't have been dropped by the reapers, just as they dropped knowledge and technology to ensure the civilizations to develop along the path's the reapers desire.

To make that feasible the brat should have known something about its features and it turns out it does. It is your perfect tour guide after its elevator picks you up. It even tells you that although their initial eugenic experiments failed, this time synthesis is safe to use. That is not only a general understanding of the synthesis function, it is extensive, because it tells you that it is absolutely safe to use. In fact the brat really wants you to use it. It claims it is the ideal solution and goes as far as to tell that it is "inevitable". In comparison it must have been relatively simple to add the other functions to the plans and refinements.

[LucasShark]

Steve The Seal wrote...

 The most stupid thing is that he actually tells you about these options, when it is so blatantly obvious that the brat does not want Control and Destroy to happen... He could simply say:

"You can only avoid this destiny by merging with some green neon! Decide mortal!"

Shep is in an unknown position... Shep only nows that there are these 3 options, because of the Brat himself voluntarily reveals them, even the undesirable... 

Now this could have salvaged a bit of victory for this stupid plot: have the player have to shoot at the tube on their own.

[LucasShark]

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

LucasShark wrote...

This is a pro-ending talking point I want to kill, violently if necessary.

As I understand it, the justification goes something like this:
"The crucible creates new options for the catalyst (how and how these were chosen and who programmed them is left unanswered), but "he can't bring himself to choose" (or somesuch insanity), so he needs Shepard to pick for him."

Wow is that sad.  So a machine who's distinguishing feature (an AI) is the ability to learn, reason and make decisions cannot do one of the 3?  He doesn't even have the "we are conflicted" moment Legion does.

Leaving out all those holes, my MAJOR problem is thus: no, the crucible clearly did NOT "create new options".

How can I know that, simple:
1) It is stated repeatedly that the crucible is effectively a power source, not additonal infrastructure for the citadel or relay network
and 2) it isn't the thing doing the work here.

2 is the big one: the crucible is NOT the thing generating this spacwave of space magic, it is the citadel and the relay network.  Which means they had at least some of this functionality all along.  Since the crucible is an object which we can see does not span the entirety of the citadel, it is not the thing doing the important work here.

Let's take a wi-fi transmitter for example: we can boost the signal with power, we can modulate the signal through programming, but we can't exactly make a pie plate work as a wi-fi hotspot, well save for extensive tinkering.

Here's what I think...

As far as I can tell the Crucible interfaces with the Citadel perfectly. The brat even build the three platforms and an elevator to bring an organic up there. The brat also claims that the Citadel is part of the brat and that it is its home. So, if the brat didn't build that then it knew about it and yet it didn't remove it. So, it must at least condone its existence.

Further more, the Crucible is described by the brat as merely a crude power source, effective and adaptive in its design. Although it claims that the Crucible had organic origins, that can be just half of the truth. Starships and weapons, as an example, are also created by organics. Yet, they are based on reaper technology. There is no reason why the plans and refinements for the Crucible couldn't have been dropped by the reapers, just as they dropped knowledge and technology to ensure the civilizations to develop along the path's the reapers desire.

To make that feasible the brat should have known something about its features and it turns out it does. It is your perfect tour guide after its elevator picks you up. It even tells you that although their initial eugenic experiments failed, this time synthesis is safe to use. That is not only a general understanding of the synthesis function, it is extensive, because it tells you that it is absolutely safe to use. In fact the brat really wants you to use it. It claims it is the ideal solution and goes as far as to tell that it is "inevitable". In comparison it must have been relatively simple to add the other functions to the plans and refinements.

And a hologram would build this in the time it takes between the crucible being installed and you reaching it..... how?

[AngryFrozenWater]

LucasShark wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

LucasShark wrote...

This is a pro-ending talking point I want to kill, violently if necessary.

As I understand it, the justification goes something like this:
"The crucible creates new options for the catalyst (how and how these were chosen and who programmed them is left unanswered), but "he can't bring himself to choose" (or somesuch insanity), so he needs Shepard to pick for him."

Wow is that sad.  So a machine who's distinguishing feature (an AI) is the ability to learn, reason and make decisions cannot do one of the 3?  He doesn't even have the "we are conflicted" moment Legion does.

Leaving out all those holes, my MAJOR problem is thus: no, the crucible clearly did NOT "create new options".

How can I know that, simple:
1) It is stated repeatedly that the crucible is effectively a power source, not additonal infrastructure for the citadel or relay network
and 2) it isn't the thing doing the work here.

2 is the big one: the crucible is NOT the thing generating this spacwave of space magic, it is the citadel and the relay network.  Which means they had at least some of this functionality all along.  Since the crucible is an object which we can see does not span the entirety of the citadel, it is not the thing doing the important work here.

Let's take a wi-fi transmitter for example: we can boost the signal with power, we can modulate the signal through programming, but we can't exactly make a pie plate work as a wi-fi hotspot, well save for extensive tinkering.

Here's what I think...

As far as I can tell the Crucible interfaces with the Citadel perfectly. The brat even build the three platforms and an elevator to bring an organic up there. The brat also claims that the Citadel is part of the brat and that it is its home. So, if the brat didn't build that then it knew about it and yet it didn't remove it. So, it must at least condone its existence.

Further more, the Crucible is described by the brat as merely a crude power source, effective and adaptive in its design. Although it claims that the Crucible had organic origins, that can be just half of the truth. Starships and weapons, as an example, are also created by organics. Yet, they are based on reaper technology. There is no reason why the plans and refinements for the Crucible couldn't have been dropped by the reapers, just as they dropped knowledge and technology to ensure the civilizations to develop along the path's the reapers desire.

To make that feasible the brat should have known something about its features and it turns out it does. It is your perfect tour guide after its elevator picks you up. It even tells you that although their initial eugenic experiments failed, this time synthesis is safe to use. That is not only a general understanding of the synthesis function, it is extensive, because it tells you that it is absolutely safe to use. In fact the brat really wants you to use it. It claims it is the ideal solution and goes as far as to tell that it is "inevitable". In comparison it must have been relatively simple to add the other functions to the plans and refinements.

And a hologram would build this in the time it takes between the crucible being installed and you reaching it..... how?

As you know the plans are already several cycles old. The protheans tried to build it, but didn't finish it. The protheans claim that it wasn't their design either. The brat also tells you that it knew about its existence for several cycles, but that it thought the plans to build one were lost. So, the brat had thousands of years to build the interface. In fact the brat must have build the three platforms a very long time ago, because it claims that Shepard is the first standing there ever.

Modifié par AngryFrozenWater, 13 août 2012 - 08:16 .

[eddieoctane]

clennon8 wrote...

One other thing I want to throw out there... Regarding to the inherent silliness of the how the whole decision chamber is arranged, I don't disagree. I chalk it up to the level designers being cute and trying to make the decision chamber look like a dialogue wheel (which it does when viewed from above).

Funny thing about the dialogue wheel, moving clockwise from neutral is usually the paragon option. In the Catalyst's chamber, that would be destroy. That little fact always amused me,

[Mcfly616]

CINCTuchanka wrote...

"The Crucible changed me created new....possibiltiea. But I can't make them happen."

I will just leave this here.

lol....ROFL

Thank you....you beat me to it

[LucasShark]

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

As you know the plans are already several cycles old. The protheans tried to build it, but didn't finish it. The protheans claim that it wasn't their design either. The brat also tells you that it knew about its existence for several cycles, but that it thought the plans to build one were lost. So, the brat had thousands of years to build the interface. In fact brat must have build the three platforms a very long time ago, because it claims that Shepard is the first standing there ever.

In other words... "the infrastructure was there to begin with"

[AngryFrozenWater]

LucasShark wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

As you know the plans are already several cycles old. The protheans tried to build it, but didn't finish it. The protheans claim that it wasn't their design either. The brat also tells you that it knew about its existence for several cycles, but that it thought the plans to build one were lost. So, the brat had thousands of years to build the interface. In fact brat must have build the three platforms a very long time ago, because it claims that Shepard is the first standing there ever.

In other words... "the infrastructure was there to begin with"

Exactly.

[Mcfly616]

Steve The Seal wrote...

 The most stupid thing is that he actually tells you about these options, when it is so blatantly obvious that the brat does not want Control and Destroy to happen... He could simply say:

"You can only avoid this destiny by merging with some green neon! Decide mortal!"

Shep is in an unknown position... Shep only nows that there are these 3 options, because of the Brat himself voluntarily reveals them, even the undesirable... 

he wants the best solution.....his solution is obsolete and he knows it........his purpose is to find a solution that works....only Shepard can provide that for him...he knows it.....I'm sure he would prefer not to be destroyed or controlled, but he is willing to do so in order to fulfill his purpose.......but, I'm just statimg the obvious....right ?! Lol

[robertthebard]

D24O wrote...

Adanu wrote...

A power source that gave him new options. IT. CREATED. NEW. OPTIONS.

You whiners are just trying to pick apart every little thing even if IN GAME DIRECTLY CONTRIDICTS you.

I don't see that. Its a battery, it amplified what was already there to create "better" versions of the already existing facets of his solution.

Except that, apparently, the only option it had was Refuse.  Thousands of cycles will attest to that, I'm sure.  Although it does state that it had tried Synthesis before.

However, I feel sorry for whatever devices the OP uses to connect to BSN.  After all, if violence is the preferred method of proving that his take on this is the only correct answer, they're going to spend a lot of time beating up said device.  Gotta love internet tough guys though, it's like telephone tough guys, only you're not likely to be standing on their porch while they run off at the mouth.  (Although that would be funny too, you'd be surprised how much stammering that causes, it's like FemShep calling Vega on all the flirting. ).

[Steve The Seal]

Mcfly616 wrote...

Steve The Seal wrote...

 The most stupid thing is that he actually tells you about these options, when it is so blatantly obvious that the brat does not want Control and Destroy to happen... He could simply say:

"You can only avoid this destiny by merging with some green neon! Decide mortal!"

Shep is in an unknown position... Shep only nows that there are these 3 options, because of the Brat himself voluntarily reveals them, even the undesirable... 

he wants the best solution.....his solution is obsolete and he knows it........his purpose is to find a solution that works....only Shepard can provide that for him...he knows it.....I'm sure he would prefer not to be destroyed or controlled, but he is willing to do so in order to fulfill his purpose.......but, I'm just statimg the obvious....right ?! Lol

Uhm no... Fullfill his purpose? He says the synthetics is a problem... destroy doesn't solve this, control doesn't solve this... His purpose was to survey relationships between organics and synthetics... he twisted this, so that he was the caretaker of life itself... So, no freaking way it fullfills his purpose... It rather shatters his "mission" and purpose and solves nothing for him...

[BigBadMammogram]

There's a simple way to explain why this argument keeps going on...
The catalyst states that the crucible is just a simple power source. He also states it gave him new options. So according to the information the game gives us both of these contradictory statements are true.

So how is this possible? Simple, the writing is just that bad.

In a fictional story, you can do whatever the hell you want to, even if its completely impossible. Here's an example: "Back to back they faced each other, drew their swords and shot each other". That example is considered good writing because that poem is supposed to be ridiculous. Mass effect is supposed to be serious.

But this argument will never end because both sides are right, even though the two statements completely contradict each other.

[zambot]

BigBadMammogram wrote...

There's a simple way to explain why this argument keeps going on...
The catalyst states that the crucible is just a simple power source. He also states it gave him new options. So according to the information the game gives us both of these contradictory statements are true.

So how is this possible? Simple, the writing is just that bad.

In a fictional story, you can do whatever the hell you want to, even if its completely impossible. Here's an example: "Back to back they faced each other, drew their swords and shot each other". That example is considered good writing because that poem is supposed to be ridiculous. Mass effect is supposed to be serious.

But this argument will never end because both sides are right, even though the two statements completely contradict each other.

1. Perhaps it gives him new options because he never had a power source before?  (wtf?)
2. Perhaps he never had a power source created by Shepard before!  This ties in nicely with the "Essence is a Real Thing and Shepard's is Special" theory.

[LucasShark]

zambot wrote...

BigBadMammogram wrote...

There's a simple way to explain why this argument keeps going on...
The catalyst states that the crucible is just a simple power source. He also states it gave him new options. So according to the information the game gives us both of these contradictory statements are true.

So how is this possible? Simple, the writing is just that bad.

In a fictional story, you can do whatever the hell you want to, even if its completely impossible. Here's an example: "Back to back they faced each other, drew their swords and shot each other". That example is considered good writing because that poem is supposed to be ridiculous. Mass effect is supposed to be serious.

But this argument will never end because both sides are right, even though the two statements completely contradict each other.

1. Perhaps it gives him new options because he never had a power source before?  (wtf?)
2. Perhaps he never had a power source created by Shepard before!  This ties in nicely with the "Essence is a Real Thing and Shepard's is Special" theory.

Both of those are frankly silly as for the first: the citadel is sitting next to a bloody star and for the second: what kind of homeopathic lunacy spawned that?

[zambot]

LucasShark wrote...

zambot wrote...

BigBadMammogram wrote...

There's a simple way to explain why this argument keeps going on...
The catalyst states that the crucible is just a simple power source. He also states it gave him new options. So according to the information the game gives us both of these contradictory statements are true.

So how is this possible? Simple, the writing is just that bad.

In a fictional story, you can do whatever the hell you want to, even if its completely impossible. Here's an example: "Back to back they faced each other, drew their swords and shot each other". That example is considered good writing because that poem is supposed to be ridiculous. Mass effect is supposed to be serious.

But this argument will never end because both sides are right, even though the two statements completely contradict each other.

1. Perhaps it gives him new options because he never had a power source before?  (wtf?)
2. Perhaps he never had a power source created by Shepard before!  This ties in nicely with the "Essence is a Real Thing and Shepard's is Special" theory.

Both of those are frankly silly as for the first: the citadel is sitting next to a bloody star and for the second: what kind of homeopathic lunacy spawned that?

Hey man, you can't plug a star into the Crucible.  Just because the Catalyst had billions of minds all joined together doesn't mean they thought of a simple battery.  Maybe the concepts of batteries were too simple for his awesomeness.

Also, do not underestimate the power of Shepard's Essence.  The EC showed us just how powerful it is.

[Fedi.St]

All these pro enders which wait the game to tell them what's right and what's wrong ,it's better for them to go and play doom 3 or quake iv("I saw this i saw that i didn't really undestand but to go to the next level i have to go forward and it's gonna be ok") .
people this is mass effect universe. you have to investigate, understand, decide and even some things can be a dead end(shepard dies on me2)

Control -Destroy options are build on the citadel. NOT on crucible. ITS CLEARLY SEEN IN THE FINAL MOMENTS OF THE GAME. Its very clear what is going on. The citadel and the AI are giving the choices NOT crucible. thus it's reaper preferred choices. They are turning our weapon against us.

however with space magic bioware can dismiss that claim its their game they can do what they want. But they will destroy the coherence of the series COMPLETELY this time and make us distrust any future game of theirs.

[zambot]

Fedi.St wrote...
Its very clear what is going on.

No...no it is not.

[flanny]

The crucible is a battery nothing more, the rest is simply bad writing you can't reason with something that makes no sense

[Fedi.St]

zambot wrote...

Fedi.St wrote...
Its very clear what is going on.

No...no it is not.

Based on the facts through the game it is!


As I said though it 's always possible that bioware can dismiss their own game and destroy coherence.

Although as it stands now destroy and control are build on the citadel. NOT on crucible!

[BigBadMammogram]

Fedi.St wrote...

zambot wrote...

Fedi.St wrote...
Its very clear what is going on.

No...no it is not.

Based on the facts through the game it is!


As I said though it 's always possible that bioware can dismiss their own game and destroy coherence.

Although as it stands now destroy and control are build on the citadel. NOT on crucible!

The game tells us very clearly that the crucible is only a power source. The game also very clearly states that the crucible somehow changes the most advanced AI in the galaxy. These two statements directly contradict each other, which is why everyone is confused. So I would love to know what facts you saw that made your conclusion so clear.

[Wayning_Star]

The crucible is masked as a power supply, the thing is a hacking tool, a kind of cosmic powered flash drive with new data for the catalyst to succum to. And YES the crucible did create new options. The catalyst didn't create the elevator to undermine Shepards' advance, that stuff was there to collect harvestees. The game actually states that the beam is used to for that purpos. Shep had to unlock the citadel, open it for the crucible, designed and modifed over the years by different races. It was never disclosed exactly where the design of the crucible originated. I think the next DLC may very well shed some light on that.

In any event you are ommiting much to assume your premise is substancial, sans any more proof of anything that others don't have to sustain it.

[D24O]

BigBadMammogram wrote...

The game tells us very clearly that the crucible is only a power source. The game also very clearly states that the crucible somehow changes the most advanced AI in the galaxy. These two statements directly contradict each other, which is why everyone is confused. 

I think this. 

[BigBadMammogram]

You cant have a "crude power source" and a hacking tool at the same time. Flash drives dont provide power, and your laptops battery will never install malware into your system. Not to mention that creating a hacking tool for a program that you know nothing about is basically impossible.

But Bioware says all of those statements are true, which is just bad writing. Its the only way to explain all of this.

[Wayning_Star]

BigBadMammogram wrote...

Fedi.St wrote...

zambot wrote...

Fedi.St wrote...
Its very clear what is going on.

No...no it is not.

Based on the facts through the game it is!


As I said though it 's always possible that bioware can dismiss their own game and destroy coherence.

Although as it stands now destroy and control are build on the citadel. NOT on crucible!

The game tells us very clearly that the crucible is only a power source. The game also very clearly states that the crucible somehow changes the most advanced AI in the galaxy. These two statements directly contradict each other, which is why everyone is confused. So I would love to know what facts you saw that made your conclusion so clear.

the game only infers that the catalyst assumes it to be 'only that', which only partly correct, a deception of the catalyst, who would react defensively if it knew that the crucible was there to reprogram, attack it's core logic. So it was masked as just a power supply, carrying a bonus payload. It had to be connected to the citadel to be armed, so that is a tell as to its hidden capacity. It works "with" the citadel, that is only part of the catalyst.

The catalyst only permitted the link because the Allience forced that issue by force and Shep opening the citadel. The reapers couldn't stop the progression of events up to the point of installation of the crucible, then Shep was left with the decisions instilled by the crucible. The catalyst was reprogrammed with the choices by the crucible, and also to follow through using the citadel resources to engage the new programming and grant what ever wish Shepard presented.