545 réponses à ce sujet

[BigBadMammogram]

So he would react defensively if he knew the crucible was there to reprogram him, and he tells us that the crucible changed him, which means he knows. So why doesnt he act defensively? Or how does he know that the crucible changed him?

Again, two statements that directly contradict each other.

Bad writing.

[JeffZero]

The Crucible didn't create new options. It altered the Catalyst's outlook to be infinitely more open to receiving Shepard and, well, thrusting galactic burden upon Shepard, than it ever would have been before.

[Clayless]

Looking around it appears that Synthesis is created by the Crucible and the Citadel, and Control and Destroy are on the Citadel.

[BigBadMammogram]

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

Looking around it appears that Synthesis is created by the Crucible and the Citadel, and Control and Destroy are on the Citadel.

I would love to know how you came to that conclusion.

[Wayning_Star]

BigBadMammogram wrote...

You cant have a "crude power source" and a hacking tool at the same time. Flash drives dont provide power, and your laptops battery will never install malware into your system. Not to mention that creating a hacking tool for a program that you know nothing about is basically impossible.

But Bioware says all of those statements are true, which is just bad writing. Its the only way to explain all of this.

Well you can when it comes to the catalyst creators, they're very old and quite crafty, unless creating a failsafe program to monitor synth/organic relations. They made the catalyst too powerful, but with less than optimal intelligence to handle the situation discreetly. But then, it might of gained sentience on them,but lacked good/better judgement, made a mistake, not unlike it's creators.

It's not explained exactly what the crucible is, it could be any cosmic tool utilized by the creator race, or some other, modified over the years to accomplish that one task. I only suspect it's creator origin, because it seems to mesh perfectly with the citadel and slips by the catalyst undetected as a major threat. It underestimated the deceptive qualities because the catalyst is not programmed to "lie" or cheat, steal or even kill, those are the job of the reaperships, qualified to emmulate organic ideo syncrosities.

[BigBadMammogram]

JeffZero wrote...

The Crucible didn't create new options. It altered the Catalyst's outlook to be infinitely more open to receiving Shepard and, well, thrusting galactic burden upon Shepard, than it ever would have been before.

Thats one hell of a hack. They managed to find an exploit for a program they knew nothing about in order to make it more receptive to a person that doesnt exist yet. That takes true talent.

Or bad writing.

[Clayless]

BigBadMammogram wrote...

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

Looking around it appears that Synthesis is created by the Crucible and the Citadel, and Control and Destroy are on the Citadel.

I would love to know how you came to that conclusion.

By looking at the beam connecting from the Crucible to the Citadel and the 2 options built into the CItadel?

[Wayning_Star]

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

Looking around it appears that Synthesis is created by the Crucible and the Citadel, and Control and Destroy are on the Citadel.

OR, the keepers are 'in on' the plot..they are enigmatic and run the citadel. Maybe they revolted against the catalyst, their creator? We do know they're very industrious, capable of building stuff very quickly. As we don't relly know what the time sense is after Shep is beamed up. For all we know time stood still, or slowed emmensly. This is the kind of power we get to deal with confronting the catalyst/citadel technology, all created by it's maker, the original creators and total messer uppers of the MEU.

[Grub Killer8016]

Hackulator wrote...

I'd respond, but tbh I'm just too tired of dealing with arguments that aren't actually arguments as opposed to just rants of an opinion.

Same here

[BigBadMammogram]

Wayning_Star wrote...

Well you can when it comes to the catalyst creators, they're very old and quite crafty, unless creating a failsafe program to monitor synth/organic relations. They made the catalyst too powerful, but with less than optimal intelligence to handle the situation discreetly. But then, it might of gained sentience on them,but lacked good/better judgement, made a mistake, not unlike it's creators.

It's not explained exactly what the crucible is, it could be any cosmic tool utilized by the creator race, or some other, modified over the years to accomplish that one task. I only suspect it's creator origin, because it seems to mesh perfectly with the citadel and slips by the catalyst undetected as a major threat. It underestimated the deceptive qualities because the catalyst is not programmed to "lie" or cheat, steal or even kill, those are the job of the reaperships, qualified to emmulate organic ideo syncrosities.

Not a bad theory. Would have been nice if bioware decided to include something like that in the game, instead of just leaving everyone confused...

Unfortunatly, nothing in the game even hints at something like that being true. Which means its just (screw it, you already know what I'm going to say)

[Wayning_Star]

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

BigBadMammogram wrote...

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

Looking around it appears that Synthesis is created by the Crucible and the Citadel, and Control and Destroy are on the Citadel.

I would love to know how you came to that conclusion.

By looking at the beam connecting from the Crucible to the Citadel and the 2 options built into the CItadel?

hint: power supply, huge bizzare beam tayloring the entire MEU whould need a direct connection.  I did notice,however, on one pre EC playthrough, there was not a synthesis beam there, only the control and destroy options. My war chest wasn't, apperently, full enough to get the synthesis choice?

[BigBadMammogram]

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

BigBadMammogram wrote...

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

Looking around it appears that Synthesis is created by the Crucible and the Citadel, and Control and Destroy are on the Citadel.

I would love to know how you came to that conclusion.

By looking at the beam connecting from the Crucible to the Citadel and the 2 options built into the CItadel?

That actually makes sense. Thanks

[LucasShark]

BigBadMammogram wrote...

You cant have a "crude power source" and a hacking tool at the same time. Flash drives dont provide power, and your laptops battery will never install malware into your system. Not to mention that creating a hacking tool for a program that you know nothing about is basically impossible.

But Bioware says all of those statements are true, which is just bad writing. Its the only way to explain all of this.

More or less, and most galling of all: they hide it behind "artistic vision".

[Wayning_Star]

BigBadMammogram wrote...

Wayning_Star wrote...

Well you can when it comes to the catalyst creators, they're very old and quite crafty, unless creating a failsafe program to monitor synth/organic relations. They made the catalyst too powerful, but with less than optimal intelligence to handle the situation discreetly. But then, it might of gained sentience on them,but lacked good/better judgement, made a mistake, not unlike it's creators.

It's not explained exactly what the crucible is, it could be any cosmic tool utilized by the creator race, or some other, modified over the years to accomplish that one task. I only suspect it's creator origin, because it seems to mesh perfectly with the citadel and slips by the catalyst undetected as a major threat. It underestimated the deceptive qualities because the catalyst is not programmed to "lie" or cheat, steal or even kill, those are the job of the reaperships, qualified to emmulate organic ideo syncrosities.

Not a bad theory. Would have been nice if bioware decided to include something like that in the game, instead of just leaving everyone confused...

Unfortunatly, nothing in the game even hints at something like that being true. Which means its just (screw it, you already know what I'm going to say)

that done it!! "head canon", I'm jumping into the synthesis beam just to spite you!!! lol

[AngryFrozenWater]

BigBadMammogram wrote...

The game tells us very clearly that the crucible is only a power source. The game also very clearly states that the crucible somehow changes the most advanced AI in the galaxy. These two statements directly contradict each other, which is why everyone is confused. So I would love to know what facts you saw that made your conclusion so clear.

It mentions that the Crucible changed the variables. For me, as a programmer, variables are parts of memory which contain values and those values can change based on conditions. One of the conditions was that the Crucible arrived and the other that an organic set foot on the area with the three platforms. It also claims that Shepard was the first to be at that Citadel location ever. These events changed the variables. That changed its normal modus operandi, because these are events it anticipated and planned for a long time, but never encountered before. That was what was going on. Nothing more. And thus there is no contradiction.

Modifié par AngryFrozenWater, 13 août 2012 - 10:30 .

[BigBadMammogram]

Wayning_Star wrote...

that done it!! "head canon", I'm jumping into the synthesis beam just to spite you!!! lol

Noooooo!!! What have I done...

[o Ventus]

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

BigBadMammogram wrote...

The game tells us very clearly that the crucible is only a power source. The game also very clearly states that the crucible somehow changes the most advanced AI in the galaxy. These two statements directly contradict each other, which is why everyone is confused. So I would love to know what facts you saw that made your conclusion so clear.

It mentions that the Crucible changed the variables. For me, as a programmer, variables are parts of memory which contain values and those values can change based on conditions. One of the conditions was that the Crucible arrived and the other that an organic set foot on the area with the three platforms. It also claims that Shepard was the first to be at that Citadel location ever. These events changed the variables. That changed its normal modus operandi, because these are events it anticipated and planned for a long time, but never encountered before. That was what was going on. Nothing more. And thus there is no contradiction.

The the problem comes from a lack of context on the Catalyst's part when he talks about "variables".

"It changed the variables." (paraphrased)

Well, what variables? Programming variables? Math variables? A = X now? The independent variable?

[Wayning_Star]

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

BigBadMammogram wrote...

The game tells us very clearly that the crucible is only a power source. The game also very clearly states that the crucible somehow changes the most advanced AI in the galaxy. These two statements directly contradict each other, which is why everyone is confused. So I would love to know what facts you saw that made your conclusion so clear.

It mentions that the Crucible changed the variables. For me, as a programmer, variables are parts of memory which contain values and those values can change based on conditions. One of the conditions was that the Crucible arrived and the other that an organic set foot on the area with the three platforms. It also claims that Shepard was the first to be at that Citadel location ever. These events changed the variables. That changed its normal modus operandi, because these are events it anticipated and planned for a long time, but never encountered before. That was what was going on. Nothing more. And thus there is no contradiction.

Uh oh.. we cannot suppose that when Shep was resuscitated, someone messed with his 'essence', making it possible for him to directly interact with the catalyst? Who would do a thing like that?!?

Reapers wouldn't have him killed to:  have indoctrinated IM bring him back to cause more problems? Makes a person wonder who exactly indoctrinated the illusive man in the first,er second place?

Who,exactly is running all things catalyst?

[BigBadMammogram]

o Ventus wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

BigBadMammogram wrote...

The game tells us very clearly that the crucible is only a power source. The game also very clearly states that the crucible somehow changes the most advanced AI in the galaxy. These two statements directly contradict each other, which is why everyone is confused. So I would love to know what facts you saw that made your conclusion so clear.

It mentions that the Crucible changed the variables. For me, as a programmer, variables are parts of memory which contain values and those values can change based on conditions. One of the conditions was that the Crucible arrived and the other that an organic set foot on the area with the three platforms. It also claims that Shepard was the first to be at that Citadel location ever. These events changed the variables. That changed its normal modus operandi, because these are events it anticipated and planned for a long time, but never encountered before. That was what was going on. Nothing more. And thus there is no contradiction.

The the problem comes from a lack of context on the Catalyst's part when he talks about "variables".

"It changed the variables." (paraphrased)

Well, what variables? Programming variables? Math variables? A = X now? The independent variable?

Again, we have a theory that makes sense (honestly its the best one I've heard so far), but it isnt supported by the game. The catalyst says the crucible changed me. Not his variables, not the situation, but me. So even though that theory makes a lot of sense (especially to another programmer, although I tend to find ways to break programs instead of create them), and would have been a great way to explain what changed, the game does nothing to explain this. Which is why everyone is confused.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

LucasShark wrote...

"The crucible creates new options for the catalyst (how and how these were chosen and who programmed them is left unanswered), but "he can't bring himself to choose" (or somesuch insanity), so he needs Shepard to pick for him."


Wow is that sad.  So a machine who's distinguishing feature (an AI) is the ability to learn, reason and make decisions cannot do one of the 3?  He doesn't even have the "we are conflicted" moment Legion does.

He couldn't physically make them happen.

He makes his preference clear (synthesis).

Leaving out all those holes, my MAJOR problem is thus: no, the crucible clearly did NOT "create new options".

...

2 is the big one: the crucible is NOT the thing generating this spacwave of space magic, it is the citadel and the relay network.  Which means they had at least some of this functionality all along.  Since the crucible is an object which we can see does not span the entirety of the citadel, it is not the thing doing the important work here.

Yes, but it needed something like the Crucible to make all three options work.

Also, the Catalyst does not support Destroy or Control as solutions, and only presents Synthesis if/when it believes the galaxy is ready for it. Which is why he was never compelled to go out of his way to look for a different solution than to harvest organics.

You're only getting the options because you did your job.

[hoodaticus]

AI are game theory engines. They assign value points to various branches of actions and choose the action or actions that have the highest calculated score.

Without the Crucible, Control and Synthesis had too low a score (because the current cycle seemed to be working okay, and there was no power source for Control/Synthesis anyway). With the Crucible, the probability of the cycle remaining successful was reduced, and the feasibility of Control and Synthesis were increased. That is what "created" new possibilities. They weren't actually created - they were just made sufficiently advantageous in the AI's game theory engine that the AI could actually consider them.

[BigBadMammogram]

hoodaticus wrote...

AI are game theory engines. They assign value points to various branches of actions and choose the action or actions that have the highest calculated score.

Without the Crucible, Control and Synthesis had too low a score (because the current cycle seemed to be working okay, and there was no power source for Control/Synthesis anyway). With the Crucible, the probability of the cycle remaining successful was reduced, and the feasibility of Control and Synthesis were increased. That is what "created" new possibilities. They weren't actually created - they were just made sufficiently advantageous in the AI's game theory engine that the AI could actually consider them.

Alright, so how was killing itself, or allowing itself to be taken over considered advantageous? That argument only kinda makes sense for synthesis.

And if the catalyst was nothing more than a game theory engine, it wouldnt have offered options. It would simply calculate the action that has whatever it considers the best possible outcome, and then done that. No action by shepard neccesary.

[AngryFrozenWater]

o Ventus wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

BigBadMammogram wrote...

The game tells us very clearly that the crucible is only a power source. The game also very clearly states that the crucible somehow changes the most advanced AI in the galaxy. These two statements directly contradict each other, which is why everyone is confused. So I would love to know what facts you saw that made your conclusion so clear.

It mentions that the Crucible changed the variables. For me, as a programmer, variables are parts of memory which contain values and those values can change based on conditions. One of the conditions was that the Crucible arrived and the other that an organic set foot on the area with the three platforms. It also claims that Shepard was the first to be at that Citadel location ever. These events changed the variables. That changed its normal modus operandi, because these are events it anticipated and planned for a long time, but never encountered before. That was what was going on. Nothing more. And thus there is no contradiction.

The the problem comes from a lack of context on the Catalyst's part when he talks about "variables".

"It changed the variables." (paraphrased)

Well, what variables? Programming variables? Math variables? A = X now? The independent variable?

Shepard was talking to an AI so to me it was obvious. I understand that it can be vague for others.

[fchopin]

LucasShark wrote...

This is a pro-ending talking point I want to kill, violently if necessary.

As I understand it, the justification goes something like this:
"The crucible creates new options for the catalyst (how and how these were chosen and who programmed them is left unanswered), but "he can't bring himself to choose" (or somesuch insanity), so he needs Shepard to pick for him."

Before you can kill something you first have to understand it.
 
The crucible did make changes but the changes are in the mind of starchild, starchild said that he could see more possibilities.
 
The power source has unlimited possibilities and can be used in many ways and some of those are the options starchild tells Shepard, i am sure there are many more options but starchild probably can not see any connection to the synthetic artificial problem.
 
The changes are to starchild's mind as that is where the problem started in the first place, if starchild could not see anything more than harvesting advanced civilisations every 50,000 years then he would never have allowed Shepard to use the destroy option.
With the new vision of starchild it allowed Shepard to be given the 4 options to choose as Shepard liked but still tried to influence Shepard to pick the Synthesis option.

The changes are to starchilds mind as there lies the problem.

Modifié par fchopin, 13 août 2012 - 11:17 .

[JamieCOTC]

CINCTuchanka wrote...

"The Crucible changed me created new....possibiltiea. But I can't make them happen."

I will just leave this here.

Yep.  The Catalyst is just completely insane.