545 réponses à ce sujet

[AtreiyaN7]

*reads a bunch of first-page posts by endings haters*
*proceeds to roll her eyes at the entire thread*

I think the point is that the Crucible, along with Shepard, opens up new possibilities. The Crucible is just a power source ultimately. I think that Shepard's triumph (and survival) at the end is so novel and unusual - having never before happened in any previous cycle - that the Catalyst perhaps sees the three options as finally being viable.

Maybe the Catalyst finds it symbolic of organics achieving some heretofore undisplayed level of maturity. It may also view Shepard's experience and knowledge as a vital part of making these possibilities work - actually requiring Shepard's participation in the process. As for why the Catalyst can't/won't choose what to do, it may involve one (or more) of the following things:

1) I've always said that the Catalyst was probably programmed with specific directives by his creators. It's quite possible that those directives function along the lines of Asimov's Three Laws of Robotics and that they limit what the Catalyst can and can't do. He could very well have inescapable shackles that are hardcoded into his original programming.

2) Even if the Catalyst isn't shacked at all in any way as posited in item 1, it may be the case that he can't/won't decide something this major without a considerable amount of empirical data. Based on what the Catalyst said, the decision to harvest races wasn't some snap decision - it sounds like it was something that the Catalyst arrived at only after other avenues of keeping the balance failed.

3) It might see us as being ready to take the reins and to try to chart a new path, but only within the (now four) strictly defined options. It might be a form of compromise - the most that it can manage to give.

Modifié par AtreiyaN7, 13 août 2012 - 11:29 .

[AngryFrozenWater]

BigBadMammogram wrote...

Alright, so how was killing itself, or allowing itself to be taken over considered advantageous? That argument only kinda makes sense for synthesis.

It never killed itself, because it was never on the Citadel. You saw a holographic QEC projection, much like the one used by TIM. The actual location of the brat was in or near dark space. Far away from Citadel explosions and Crucible waves. You do not see it die and fall to the ground. Instead, you see a flicker for a fraction of a second. The QEC connection just got lost. It's possible it could have taken a couple of reapers with it. Because it is still in or near dark space it can monitor the situation and when it deems the situation requires it, it can still act. That theory would use known technology, fit the observations and take care of the brat's self-preservation. It could also act when things go wrong. That would make the most sense from the brat's point of view.

Modifié par AngryFrozenWater, 13 août 2012 - 11:31 .

[hoodaticus]

BigBadMammogram wrote...

hoodaticus wrote...

AI are game theory engines. They assign value points to various branches of actions and choose the action or actions that have the highest calculated score.

Without the Crucible, Control and Synthesis had too low a score (because the current cycle seemed to be working okay, and there was no power source for Control/Synthesis anyway). With the Crucible, the probability of the cycle remaining successful was reduced, and the feasibility of Control and Synthesis were increased. That is what "created" new possibilities. They weren't actually created - they were just made sufficiently advantageous in the AI's game theory engine that the AI could actually consider them.

Alright, so how was killing itself, or allowing itself to be taken over considered advantageous? That argument only kinda makes sense for synthesis.

And if the catalyst was nothing more than a game theory engine, it wouldnt have offered options. It would simply calculate the action that has whatever it considers the best possible outcome, and then done that. No action by shepard neccesary.

Unless, of course, there was a tie.  More likely, Synthesis was its goal and Synthesis required the cooperation of organics, and it calculated that the best chance of achieving Synthesis was by offering all three options to Shepard.

[Wayning_Star]

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

BigBadMammogram wrote...

Alright, so how was killing itself, or allowing itself to be taken over considered advantageous? That argument only kinda makes sense for synthesis.

It never killed itself, because it was never on the Citadel. You saw a holographic QEC projection, much like the one used by TIM. The actual location of the brat was in or near dark space. Far away from Citadel explosions and Crucible waves. You do not see it die and fall to the ground. Instead, you see a flicker for a fraction of a second. The QEC connection just got lost. It's possible it could have taken a couple of reapers with it. Because it is still in or near dark space it can monitor the situation and when it deems the situation requires it, it can still act. That theory would use known technology, fit the observations and take care of the brat's self-preservation. It could also act when things go wrong. That would make the most sense from the brat's point of view.

but, we are not the brat and cannot assume that it's thinking ahead, it's not in the game mechanics,for the cycle to continue,eventhough Shep did the deed. We have to assume,from data gathered from our experience, that the catlyst was changed, in mind, not necessarily in form. Choice dependent. It's primary function was changed by the decisions left to it by Shepard with the crucible. I was in the citadel, as it stated was part of it. IN all decisions, if made, the cidadel explodes and is badly damaged or possibly destroyed. So it must be surmized that the catalyst stuck to it's guns, provided by the crucibleized citadel, it's apparent home base.

Not that what you say isn't possible, it's just mostly unlikely, due to evidence provided in the endgame.

[The Spamming Troll]

the crucibles options are based off of shepards EMS.

so how do i connect those dots?

[ediskrad327]

well it just did. if it did not the war would have been lost

[Adanu]

LucasShark wrote...

Adanu wrote...

A power source that gave him new options. IT. CREATED. NEW. OPTIONS.

You whiners are just trying to pick apart every little thing even if IN GAME DIRECTLY CONTRIDICTS you.

Exactly how is it "whining" to point out that said dialogue makes no sense given other dialogue and the visuals we are shown?

That's called holding writers to a basic standard.

If a story makes no sense logically, then it no longer works as a story.  If it were revealed in the last scene of Star Wars VI that Luke was a horse all this time and we just could never tell, then this is not a functioning story anymore because logically it makes no sense.  Likewise if it is shown that the Emperor is in the throne room while simaltainously being on a star destroyer in orbit, this also makes no sense and the story no longer works.

It makes sense; you people just pick apart everything. If it doesn't fit into your world view, you call it a plot hole.

[Wayning_Star]

hoodaticus wrote...

BigBadMammogram wrote...

hoodaticus wrote...

AI are game theory engines. They assign value points to various branches of actions and choose the action or actions that have the highest calculated score.

Without the Crucible, Control and Synthesis had too low a score (because the current cycle seemed to be working okay, and there was no power source for Control/Synthesis anyway). With the Crucible, the probability of the cycle remaining successful was reduced, and the feasibility of Control and Synthesis were increased. That is what "created" new possibilities. They weren't actually created - they were just made sufficiently advantageous in the AI's game theory engine that the AI could actually consider them.

Alright, so how was killing itself, or allowing itself to be taken over considered advantageous? That argument only kinda makes sense for synthesis.

And if the catalyst was nothing more than a game theory engine, it wouldnt have offered options. It would simply calculate the action that has whatever it considers the best possible outcome, and then done that. No action by shepard neccesary.

Unless, of course, there was a tie.  More likely, Synthesis was its goal and Synthesis required the cooperation of organics, and it calculated that the best chance of achieving Synthesis was by offering all three options to Shepard.

seriously, I suspect that the catalyst was trapped by the crucible installation. It couldn't evade its core programming and the crucible was it's 'new' core program. I don't believe it thinks ahead, I don't believe it's capable of it. I think everyone overestemates it as being sapient,it's not. Thats why it appears to be so alien and basically simplistic, considering the power it possesses. That is the problem with the catalyst, all power and no brains to speak of. What it says goes, but it don't have much to say, unless programmed to say it.

[ASmoothCriminalx]

 Because so much is known about the Crucible... "Gah zukes, Hackett! I hope this weapon doesn't wipe us out!". Oh and so much is known about this Catalyst character too. He's a classic ME personality! Thematically driven character and definitely isn't introduced in the last 30 minutes of the game..  <_<

[Wayning_Star]

The Spamming Troll wrote...

the crucibles options are based off of shepards EMS.

so how do i connect those dots?

good point, my guess is that if the EMS is poor, the Alliance cannot protect the crucible well enough, and it gets damaged in shipping. Also, if we don't/cannot find all the extras for the crucible assembly, that could effect the crucible and maybe weaken it from it's intended purposes.

[AngryFrozenWater]

AtreiyaN7 wrote...

*reads a bunch of first-page posts by endings haters*
*proceeds to roll her eyes at the entire thread*

I think the point is that the Crucible, along with Shepard, opens up new possibilities. The Crucible is just a power source ultimately. I think that Shepard's triumph (and survival) at the end is so novel and unusual - having never before happened in any previous cycle - that the Catalyst perhaps sees the three options as finally being viable.

Maybe the Catalyst finds it symbolic of organics achieving some heretofore undisplayed level of maturity. It may also view Shepard's experience and knowledge as a vital part of making these possibilities work - actually requiring Shepard's participation in the process. As for why the Catalyst can't/won't choose what to do, it may involve one (or more) of the following things:

1) I've always said that the Catalyst was probably programmed with specific directives by his creators. It's quite possible that those directives function along the lines of Asimov's Three Laws of Robotics and that they limit what the Catalyst can and can't do. He could very well have inescapable shackles that are hardcoded into his original programming.

2) Even if the Catalyst isn't shacked at all in any way as posited in item 1, it may be the case that he can't/won't decide something this major without a considerable amount of empirical data. Based on what the Catalyst said, the decision to harvest races wasn't some snap decision - it sounds like it was something that the Catalyst arrived at only after other avenues of keeping the balance failed.

3) It might see us as being ready to take the reins and to try to chart a new path, but only within the (now four) strictly defined options. It might be a form of compromise - the most that it can manage to give.

These new possibilities are created by itself. They did not drop from thin air. The platforms and the elevator are part of the Citadel and it claims that the Citadel is part of the brat - it is its home.

1) The brat is supposed to be one of the most advanced AIs in the galaxy. Do not think it is a stupid program running on Windows for Workgroups. That means you have to take it seriously. It may look like a kid, but that doesn't mean it is a stupid kid. It doesn't need protection either, because it is no kid. It is an AI driven monster capable of a gazillion atrocities. It can lie if needs to and it has even developed technology that forces organics to believe its lies: It is called indoctrination.

2) The reasons for it cyclical genocide are irrelevant to the victims it made. What is relevant is that it is targeting us. One can have respect for its power, but it still is a foe that intented to exterminate Shepard and his/her allies.

3) The problem is that we can only opt from the choices given to us. It is unknown why these 3 main options and not some others. Chances are that we never get an asnwer to that. It also depends on your point of view. I tend not to trust the brat and its boys, because I consider the brat to be accountable for its actions - and considering its past it doesn't appear to be trustworthy.

Modifié par AngryFrozenWater, 13 août 2012 - 11:55 .

[AresKeith]

Adanu wrote...

LucasShark wrote...

Adanu wrote...

A power source that gave him new options. IT. CREATED. NEW. OPTIONS.

You whiners are just trying to pick apart every little thing even if IN GAME DIRECTLY CONTRIDICTS you.

Exactly how is it "whining" to point out that said dialogue makes no sense given other dialogue and the visuals we are shown?

That's called holding writers to a basic standard.

If a story makes no sense logically, then it no longer works as a story.  If it were revealed in the last scene of Star Wars VI that Luke was a horse all this time and we just could never tell, then this is not a functioning story anymore because logically it makes no sense.  Likewise if it is shown that the Emperor is in the throne room while simaltainously being on a star destroyer in orbit, this also makes no sense and the story no longer works.

It makes sense; you people just pick apart everything. If it doesn't fit into your world view, you call it a plot hole.

or maybe because its bad writing

[ASmoothCriminalx]

AtreiyaN7 wrote...

*reads a bunch of first-page posts by endings haters*
*proceeds to roll her eyes at the entire thread*

I think the point is that the Crucible, along with Shepard, opens up new possibilities. The Crucible is just a power source ultimately. I think that Shepard's triumph (and survival) at the end is so novel and unusual - having never before happened in any previous cycle - that the Catalyst perhaps sees the three options as finally being viable.

Maybe the Catalyst finds it symbolic of organics achieving some heretofore undisplayed level of maturity. It may also view Shepard's experience and knowledge as a vital part of making these possibilities work - actually requiring Shepard's participation in the process. As for why the Catalyst can't/won't choose what to do, it may involve one (or more) of the following things:

1) I've always said that the Catalyst was probably programmed with specific directives by his creators. It's quite possible that those directives function along the lines of Asimov's Three Laws of Robotics and that they limit what the Catalyst can and can't do. He could very well have inescapable shackles that are hardcoded into his original programming.

2) Even if the Catalyst isn't shacked at all in any way as posited in item 1, it may be the case that he can't/won't decide something this major without a considerable amount of empirical data. Based on what the Catalyst said, the decision to harvest races wasn't some snap decision - it sounds like it was something that the Catalyst arrived at only after other avenues of keeping the balance failed.

3) It might see us as being ready to take the reins and to try to chart a new path, but only within the (now four) strictly defined options. It might be a form of compromise - the most that it can manage to give.

Notice how this person doesn't assume any of his/her own speculation is fact? The use of may, maybe, perhaps, possibly is refreshing after reading posts by others on this forum who are just so sure they have solved the puzzle, without having any proof or credibility to do so. Clearly, more people need to take science classes.

[Clayless]

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

1) The brat is supposed to be one of the most advanced AIs in the galaxy. Do not think it is a stupid program running on Windows for Workgroups. That means you have to take it seriously. It may look like a kid, but that doesn't mean it is a stupid kid. It doesn't need protection either, because it is no kid. It is an AI driven monster capable of a gazillion atrocities. It can lie if needs to and it has even developed technology that forces organics to believe its lies: It is called indoctrination.

2) The reasons for it cyclical genocide are irrelevant to the victims it made. What is relevant is that it is targeting us. One can have respect for its power, but it still is a foe that intented to exterminate Shepard and his/her allies.

3) The problem is that we can only opt from the choices given to us. It is unknown why these 3 main options and not some others. Chances are that we never get an asnwer to that. It also depends on your point of view. I tend not to trust the brat and its boys, because I consider the brat to be accountable for its actions - and considering its past it doesn't appear to be trustworthy.

So does that mean you picked refuse?

[Wayning_Star]

ASmoothCriminalx wrote...

 Because so much is known about the Crucible... "Gah zukes, Hackett! I hope this weapon doesn't wipe us out!". Oh and so much is known about this Catalyst character too. He's a classic ME personality! Thematically driven character and definitely isn't introduced in the last 30 minutes of the game..  <_<

well, it's not all that unusual for a antagonist to have 'hidden' talent...so. The crucible is an alien device developed by who really knows for who knows what. The Allience was somewhat informed that is was related to the reapers, the catalyst wasn't made known, but the crucible was designed to be hooked into the citadel for some purpose. The clue came when the citadel was moved to earth by the reapers, it became the target for the crucible by the Allience fleet. They still didn't know what would happen, but leave it to organics to 'take risks' as a last ditch effort to twart the reapers, Sheps primary program..er..orders from headquarters. Hackett did tell him to 'gitter done' asap.. reapers were cleaning house..and times' awasting.

Maybe Hackett saying that meant the he'd be willing to wipe out a lot more than earth/the alliance fleet to accomplish the mission? The game is rift with suicide missions'n the like... just say'n

[BigBadMammogram]

Adanu wrote...

LucasShark wrote...

Adanu wrote...

A power source that gave him new options. IT. CREATED. NEW. OPTIONS.

You whiners are just trying to pick apart every little thing even if IN GAME DIRECTLY CONTRIDICTS you.

Exactly how is it "whining" to point out that said dialogue makes no sense given other dialogue and the visuals we are shown?

That's called holding writers to a basic standard.

If a story makes no sense logically, then it no longer works as a story.  If it were revealed in the last scene of Star Wars VI that Luke was a horse all this time and we just could never tell, then this is not a functioning story anymore because logically it makes no sense.  Likewise if it is shown that the Emperor is in the throne room while simaltainously being on a star destroyer in orbit, this also makes no sense and the story no longer works.

It makes sense; you people just pick apart everything. If it doesn't fit into your world view, you call it a plot hole.

...this has nothing to do with anyone's world view. None of us have even talked about our world views. It has everything to do with whether or not the catalyst makes sense. He doesn't, he contradicts himself. Thats a plothole.  Thats what were discussing.

Now a few people here have offered good explanations as to why it is not a plothole, and a few of the explanations make sense, so that changes it from a 'wtf' plothole to a minor one, but that should have been bioware's job, not ours. They did a terrible job writing the end.

[AngryFrozenWater]

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

So does that mean you picked refuse?

Refuse does not make sense. That's only a delay. I select destroy and commit genocide of the geth and murder EDI.

Modifié par AngryFrozenWater, 13 août 2012 - 11:58 .

[Clayless]

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

1) The brat is supposed to be one of the most advanced AIs in the galaxy. Do not think it is a stupid program running on Windows for Workgroups. That means you have to take it seriously. It may look like a kid, but that doesn't mean it is a stupid kid. It doesn't need protection either, because it is no kid. It is an AI driven monster capable of a gazillion atrocities. It can lie if needs to and it has even developed technology that forces organics to believe its lies: It is called indoctrination.

2) The reasons for it cyclical genocide are irrelevant to the victims it made. What is relevant is that it is targeting us. One can have respect for its power, but it still is a foe that intented to exterminate Shepard and his/her allies.

3) The problem is that we can only opt from the choices given to us. It is unknown why these 3 main options and not some others. Chances are that we never get an asnwer to that. It also depends on your point of view. I tend not to trust the brat and its boys, because I consider the brat to be accountable for its actions - and considering its past it doesn't appear to be trustworthy.

So does that mean you picked refuse?

Refuse does not make sense. That's only a delay. I select Destroy and commit genocide of the geth and murder EDI.

Why did you chose one of the options if you didn't trust the Catalyst then? Isn't that a massive contradiction?

[Wayning_Star]

ASmoothCriminalx wrote...

AtreiyaN7 wrote...

*reads a bunch of first-page posts by endings haters*
*proceeds to roll her eyes at the entire thread*

I think the point is that the Crucible, along with Shepard, opens up new possibilities. The Crucible is just a power source ultimately. I think that Shepard's triumph (and survival) at the end is so novel and unusual - having never before happened in any previous cycle - that the Catalyst perhaps sees the three options as finally being viable.

Maybe the Catalyst finds it symbolic of organics achieving some heretofore undisplayed level of maturity. It may also view Shepard's experience and knowledge as a vital part of making these possibilities work - actually requiring Shepard's participation in the process. As for why the Catalyst can't/won't choose what to do, it may involve one (or more) of the following things:

1) I've always said that the Catalyst was probably programmed with specific directives by his creators. It's quite possible that those directives function along the lines of Asimov's Three Laws of Robotics and that they limit what the Catalyst can and can't do. He could very well have inescapable shackles that are hardcoded into his original programming.

2) Even if the Catalyst isn't shacked at all in any way as posited in item 1, it may be the case that he can't/won't decide something this major without a considerable amount of empirical data. Based on what the Catalyst said, the decision to harvest races wasn't some snap decision - it sounds like it was something that the Catalyst arrived at only after other avenues of keeping the balance failed.

3) It might see us as being ready to take the reins and to try to chart a new path, but only within the (now four) strictly defined options. It might be a form of compromise - the most that it can manage to give.

Notice how this person doesn't assume any of his/her own speculation is fact? The use of may, maybe, perhaps, possibly is refreshing after reading posts by others on this forum who are just so sure they have solved the puzzle, without having any proof or credibility to do so. Clearly, more people need to take science classes.

I try, desperately to surmize only from evidence 'in game', but often include head canon as filler for my external viewpoint and limited data within the game for puzzle quests. The story as written doen't include that posters open minded suggestions of 'what if's'. Like assuming the catalys isn't shackled in any way? Thats impossible to support with ingame data. I'm not gonna go the pick apart theme with the rest of that post tho. Too lazy..lol

[Alankpb]

As master chief said: "pick a color you want to explode the galaxy with. such a hard choice... there all such great colors.

[hoodaticus]

Wayning_Star wrote...

hoodaticus wrote...

BigBadMammogram wrote...

hoodaticus wrote...

AI are game theory engines. They assign value points to various branches of actions and choose the action or actions that have the highest calculated score.

Without the Crucible, Control and Synthesis had too low a score (because the current cycle seemed to be working okay, and there was no power source for Control/Synthesis anyway). With the Crucible, the probability of the cycle remaining successful was reduced, and the feasibility of Control and Synthesis were increased. That is what "created" new possibilities. They weren't actually created - they were just made sufficiently advantageous in the AI's game theory engine that the AI could actually consider them.

Alright, so how was killing itself, or allowing itself to be taken over considered advantageous? That argument only kinda makes sense for synthesis.

And if the catalyst was nothing more than a game theory engine, it wouldnt have offered options. It would simply calculate the action that has whatever it considers the best possible outcome, and then done that. No action by shepard neccesary.

Unless, of course, there was a tie.  More likely, Synthesis was its goal and Synthesis required the cooperation of organics, and it calculated that the best chance of achieving Synthesis was by offering all three options to Shepard.

seriously, I suspect that the catalyst was trapped by the crucible installation. It couldn't evade its core programming and the crucible was it's 'new' core program. I don't believe it thinks ahead, I don't believe it's capable of it. I think everyone overestemates it as being sapient,it's not. Thats why it appears to be so alien and basically simplistic, considering the power it possesses. That is the problem with the catalyst, all power and no brains to speak of. What it says goes, but it don't have much to say, unless programmed to say it.

The Catalyst can tell you itself that it tried Synthesis before and failed because it requires the willing cooperation of organics.

[AngryFrozenWater]

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

Why did you chose one of the options if you didn't trust the Catalyst then? Isn't that a massive contradiction?

No. I said that I do not trust the brat and its boys at all, but refusing one of its options means a delay of the selection of those same options until the next cycle. In the meantime all would be exterminated.

Modifié par AngryFrozenWater, 14 août 2012 - 12:04 .

[Fedi.St]

Wayning_Star wrote...


the game only infers that the catalyst assumes it to be 'only that', which only partly correct, a deception of the catalyst, who would react defensively if it knew that the crucible was there to reprogram, attack it's core logic. So it was masked as just a power supply, carrying a bonus payload. It had to be connected to the citadel to be armed, so that is a tell as to its hidden capacity. It works "with" the citadel, that is only part of the catalyst.

The catalyst only permitted the link because the Allience forced that issue by force and Shep opening the citadel. The reapers couldn't stop the progression of events up to the point of installation of the crucible, then Shep was left with the decisions instilled by the crucible. The catalyst was reprogrammed with the choices by the crucible, and also to follow through using the citadel resources to engage the new programming and grant what ever wish Shepard presented.

My friend, everything starbrat says it's true.It's real. Though is not the whole truth.

He says that its more than a power source. It is . Otherwise not enough energy to be dispersed . Nowhere to be found.

He says that the crucible changed him "created new possibilities". He could mean ANYTHING "by change". But surely the new possibilities he already planned can be applied through the crucible! that's the change I believe. that's the different variable.


Add to that the FACT established that control destroy and maybe synthesis  are being generated by the citadel NOT crucible and you understand that no one reprogrammed starbrat. He just had a contigency plan in case the crucible EVER docked into the citadel! 


He knew about the crucible be passed on through cycles. It's just the first time they couldn't start harvesting through the citadel trap and now is possible for someone to build crucible.



It makes sense. The problem is that bioware could come tomorrow release something and destroy the logical and perfectly coherent argument by space magic.

[Wayning_Star]

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

1) The brat is supposed to be one of the most advanced AIs in the galaxy. Do not think it is a stupid program running on Windows for Workgroups. That means you have to take it seriously. It may look like a kid, but that doesn't mean it is a stupid kid. It doesn't need protection either, because it is no kid. It is an AI driven monster capable of a gazillion atrocities. It can lie if needs to and it has even developed technology that forces organics to believe its lies: It is called indoctrination.

2) The reasons for it cyclical genocide are irrelevant to the victims it made. What is relevant is that it is targeting us. One can have respect for its power, but it still is a foe that intented to exterminate Shepard and his/her allies.

3) The problem is that we can only opt from the choices given to us. It is unknown why these 3 main options and not some others. Chances are that we never get an asnwer to that. It also depends on your point of view. I tend not to trust the brat and its boys, because I consider the brat to be accountable for its actions - and considering its past it doesn't appear to be trustworthy.

So does that mean you picked refuse?

Refuse does not make sense. That's only a delay. I select Destroy and commit genocide of the geth and murder EDI.

Why did you chose one of the options if you didn't trust the Catalyst then? Isn't that a massive contradiction?

yep, if the catalyst is diabolical, why would we choose any option from it and risk it's(new?) plot against organics? We couldn't even walk away, as the next cycle wouldn't/couldn't have any warning provided it's cunning devices for deception. A no win situation right there..

[Mazebook]

LucasShark wrote...

maaaze wrote...

LucasShark wrote...

maaaze wrote...

1) yes it is important to quote accurate because it changes the whole meaning.
How about "little more" does not only imply label and contacts (which a power source would need anyway and therefore would be implied with the statement "it is just a powersource") but a  routing system that determents what parts of the citadel is powered by this energy. Maybe overloading certain part so they act differently when a certain tube gets destroyed.

2) yes that is the point. It changes the Citadel to do things it was not intended. Like filling up a hairdryer with little sharp objects. The hairdryer is now a weapon. So is the Citadel. 

3. Don´t understand this point. can you make this clearer? The problem that synthetics would destroy all organics at one point. the whole reason he was constructed.

1) "little more" is coloquially a derogitory term, "you are little more than a ____" for example, it means this element is neglidgable, not the crux of its functionality.  This is how the english language works.

2) "changes the Citadel to do things it was not intended", except: it clearly was intended to do them, as pointed out by others: the catalyst's chambers, the red pipe, the control handles, all are part of the citadel, not introduced by the crucible.  Ergo: the infrastructure to facilitate at least these two options was hard-wired into the citadel from its construction.

3) The point: is that is an absolutely idiotic problem to have, as it is nonsensical.  It relies on the use of a probability as though it were a known fact, ie: "the created shall ALWAYS rebel against their creators",.  Appealing to probability as though it were a demonstrated fact is a logical falicy, an invalid argument.  Simaltainously it is idiotic to claim that any synthetic race could utterly stop organic life from spontainously evolving everywhere in the galaxy as stars are born and die all the time, along with their solar systems.  Short of pulling a Davros (a biological life form by the way) and utterly destroying all matter in the universe, this is not a problem.

1) little more =! just

2) Do you know what repuporsed means?

3) no it is a mathematics. something a Synthetic understands best. We always decide with what is most likely. If you have infininte time. the probabilty rises. In a universe where relays exists your points are mute. Still does not explain why he would create these choices...they go against everything he stands for.

1) is now an impass of interpretation: the abstraction "little more than" is short hand for "this bit is inconsequencial compared to the bit I'm about to list"

2) There is repurpose: to use existing things for a purpose unintended, and then there is turning a toaster into a comunication satelite.

3) If you have infinite time I can say there is 100 percent chance that monkeys will fly out of someone's butt.

1) yes, we are. Now we can take other things into account like the Catalyst can´t make these changes happen and it is creating changes the catalyst does not want, but the designers of the crucible wanted.
which leads to the conclusion that the crucible did create these possibilites.

2) the citadel is far more than a toaster. The crucible alters it to reach it´s potential in a way that was not thought possible before. Only made possible by the crucible

3) Yes indeed. but the original likelihood of Synthetics destroying all Organics is much higher than monkeys flying out of peoples butt. much more higher

Modifié par maaaze, 14 août 2012 - 12:14 .