545 réponses à ce sujet

[Wayning_Star]

Fedi.St wrote...

Wayning_Star wrote...


the game only infers that the catalyst assumes it to be 'only that', which only partly correct, a deception of the catalyst, who would react defensively if it knew that the crucible was there to reprogram, attack it's core logic. So it was masked as just a power supply, carrying a bonus payload. It had to be connected to the citadel to be armed, so that is a tell as to its hidden capacity. It works "with" the citadel, that is only part of the catalyst.

The catalyst only permitted the link because the Allience forced that issue by force and Shep opening the citadel. The reapers couldn't stop the progression of events up to the point of installation of the crucible, then Shep was left with the decisions instilled by the crucible. The catalyst was reprogrammed with the choices by the crucible, and also to follow through using the citadel resources to engage the new programming and grant what ever wish Shepard presented.

My friend, everything starbrat says it's true.It's real. Though is not the whole truth.

He says that its more than a power source. It is . Otherwise not enough energy to be dispersed . Nowhere to be found.

He says that the crucible changed him "created new possibilities". He could mean ANYTHING "by change". But surely the new possibilities he already planned can be applied through the crucible! that's the change I believe. that's the different variable.


Add to that the FACT established that control destroy and maybe synthesis  are being generated by the citadel NOT crucible and you understand that no one reprogrammed starbrat. He just had a contigency plan in case the crucible EVER docked into the citadel! 


He knew about the crucible be passed on through cycles. It's just the first time they couldn't start harvesting through the citadel trap and now is possible for someone to build crucible.



It makes sense. The problem is that bioware could come tomorrow release something and destroy the logical and perfectly coherent argument by space magic.

the catalyst is unable to tell "the truth", it's a machine, only to display facts as it knows them, it cannot vary from that. This the only control Shep has over it, the fact that it's a simple, yet totally powerful AI. Not sapient, unable to 'judge' from instinct, or guess or cheat,steal barter and other fun stuff organics learned to do/or not, over time. It's also very young,evnthough ancient. Making it very stupid. It couldn't even figure out that it's core programming of avoiding chaos was chaos. It needed a little help from it's (organic) friends.

The citadel was only it's hang out, it was just the coincidentally formitable attack fostered by the Allience that made the catalyst react by moving the citadel. Normally it would of just utilzed the reaperships for that, with other devices to carry on the logistics of harvest. Shep proved to be a major pain in it's circuits. Well, that and other help provided by hidden,yet resourceful enities, soon to be explained, er..hinted at via a new DLC...

the term "space magic" = out to be " heckonit, icantfigureitousothere"..lol

[BigBadMammogram]

maaaze wrote...

3) Yes indeed. but the original likelihood of Synthetics destroying all Organics is much higher than monkeys flying out of peoples butt. much more higher

You cant have a probability greater than 100%... So with an infinite amount of time, synthetics would rebel against their creators, and monkeys would fly out of peoples butts, dogs would eat invading army's that landed on a tennis ball, cats and dogs would be living together in harmony, etc...

With enough time, anything will happen. And the odds of all of those things happening are exactly the same. 100%

[Obadiah]

The Crucible changed the Catalyst. It says so. The end.

[Wayning_Star]

Obadiah wrote...

The Crucible changed the Catalyst. It says so. The end.

oh that's waaaay too simple can't argue with that. lol

[The Spamming Troll]

Wayning_Star wrote...

The Spamming Troll wrote...

the crucibles options are based off of shepards EMS.

so how do i connect those dots?

good point, my guess is that if the EMS is poor, the Alliance cannot protect the crucible well enough, and it gets damaged in shipping. Also, if we don't/cannot find all the extras for the crucible assembly, that could effect the crucible and maybe weaken it from it's intended purposes.

i could still have an extremely low EMS, but have the crucible fully built in game too. so it wouldnt make sense that the crucibles options are limited to whether-or-not-i-saved-fist-in-ME1 type reasons. the crucible should function based off of the crucible, nothing else.

also, i never saw in game that the crucible was under any kindof heavy offensive. i could counter that by saying the also made a tuperware container to seal the crucible from harm. we both wouldnt be wrong if we used that kind of thinking. and thats not a good thing.

Modifié par The Spamming Troll, 14 août 2012 - 12:24 .

[BigBadMammogram]

Obadiah wrote...

The Crucible changed the Catalyst. It says so. The end.

Damn... I must have missed that line. So glad you explained it all for us

[robertthebard]

BigBadMammogram wrote...

maaaze wrote...

3) Yes indeed. but the original likelihood of Synthetics destroying all Organics is much higher than monkeys flying out of peoples butt. much more higher

You cant have a probability greater than 100%... So with an infinite amount of time, synthetics would rebel against their creators, and monkeys would fly out of peoples butts, dogs would eat invading army's that landed on a tennis ball, cats and dogs would be living together in harmony, etc...

With enough time, anything will happen. And the odds of all of those things happening are exactly the same. 100%

Care to share the statistical probability of monkeys flying out of people's butts?  I mean, unless you have first hand knowledge, in which case maybe I don't really want to know about how you got them up there in the first place.

[Wayning_Star]

BigBadMammogram wrote...

maaaze wrote...

3) Yes indeed. but the original likelihood of Synthetics destroying all Organics is much higher than monkeys flying out of peoples butt. much more higher

You cant have a probability greater than 100%... So with an infinite amount of time, synthetics would rebel against their creators, and monkeys would fly out of peoples butts, dogs would eat invading army's that landed on a tennis ball, cats and dogs would be living together in harmony, etc...

With enough time, anything will happen. And the odds of all of those things happening are exactly the same. 100%

unless it's physics tumbled with quantum mechanics...in the innerds of a black hole. The odds really get..well..odd.

[CINCTuchanka]

"The Crucible changed me..."

It says so! Right there!

I think the more interesting debate would be why low-EMS destroy and control are presented as they are. The Catalyst is very snippy with you. We know the Crucible is damaged. It doesn't offer Synthesis. Any ideas as to why?

[CINCTuchanka]

The Spamming Troll wrote...

Wayning_Star wrote...

The Spamming Troll wrote...

the crucibles options are based off of shepards EMS.

so how do i connect those dots?

good point, my guess is that if the EMS is poor, the Alliance cannot protect the crucible well enough, and it gets damaged in shipping. Also, if we don't/cannot find all the extras for the crucible assembly, that could effect the crucible and maybe weaken it from it's intended purposes.

i could still have an extremely low EMS, but have the crucible fully built in game too. so it wouldnt make sense that the crucibles options are limited to whether-or-not-i-saved-fist-in-ME1 type reasons. the crucible should function based off of the crucible, nothing else.

also, i never saw in game that the crucible was under any kindof heavy offensive. i could counter that by saying the also made a tuperware container to seal the crucible from harm. we both wouldnt be wrong if we used that kind of thinking. and thats not a good thing.

Watch Low EMS extended cut on youtube to see.

SPOILER: It shows the Crucible taking damage.

[AngryFrozenWater]

Wayning_Star wrote...

Like assuming the catalys isn't shackled in any way? Thats impossible to support with ingame data.

That's fairly easy. There is no evidence in the game for the brat being a shackled AI and until such evidence pops up we have to assume that it is a fully unrestricted AI. But a lot of people do not like that idea, because it does not serve their rationalizations.

Modifié par AngryFrozenWater, 14 août 2012 - 12:28 .

[Wayning_Star]

The Spamming Troll wrote...

Wayning_Star wrote...

The Spamming Troll wrote...

the crucibles options are based off of shepards EMS.

so how do i connect those dots?

good point, my guess is that if the EMS is poor, the Alliance cannot protect the crucible well enough, and it gets damaged in shipping. Also, if we don't/cannot find all the extras for the crucible assembly, that could effect the crucible and maybe weaken it from it's intended purposes.

i could still have an extremely low EMS, but have the crucible fully built in game too. so it wouldnt make sense that the crucibles options are limited to whether-or-not-i-saved-fist-in-ME1 type reasons. the crucible should function based off of the crucible, nothing else.

also, i never saw in game that the crucible was under any kindof heavy offensive. i could counter that by saying the also made a tuperware container to seal the crucible from harm. we both wouldnt be wrong if we used that kind of thinking. and thats not a good thing.

I could of swore that the game included fetch side quests for stuff for the crucible and some missions helped by including them in the plus side, like saving the rachni queen for instance or findiing globes'n stuff?

Also, didn't the reapers on earth go after the crucible when they were made aware of it's proximity. The Allience fought them off and protected the crucible from damage, and the earth for that matter if your mil strenght was high enough?

Its' IN the game old buddy..really it is.(heck even the online games are helpers in that regard...)

[The Spamming Troll]

CINCTuchanka wrote...

The Spamming Troll wrote...

Wayning_Star wrote...

The Spamming Troll wrote...

the crucibles options are based off of shepards EMS.

so how do i connect those dots?

good point, my guess is that if the EMS is poor, the Alliance cannot protect the crucible well enough, and it gets damaged in shipping. Also, if we don't/cannot find all the extras for the crucible assembly, that could effect the crucible and maybe weaken it from it's intended purposes.

i could still have an extremely low EMS, but have the crucible fully built in game too. so it wouldnt make sense that the crucibles options are limited to whether-or-not-i-saved-fist-in-ME1 type reasons. the crucible should function based off of the crucible, nothing else.

also, i never saw in game that the crucible was under any kindof heavy offensive. i could counter that by saying the also made a tuperware container to seal the crucible from harm. we both wouldnt be wrong if we used that kind of thinking. and thats not a good thing.

Watch Low EMS extended cut on youtube to see.

SPOILER: It shows the Crucible taking damage.

so bioware could just rewrite it where we build a tuperware container then.

its not like 'tupperware container' is any less WTF then 'spacechild' is.

Modifié par The Spamming Troll, 14 août 2012 - 12:32 .

[CINCTuchanka]

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

Wayning_Star wrote...

Like assuming the catalys isn't shackled in any way? Thats impossible to support with ingame data.

That's fairly easy. There is no evidence in the game for the brat being a shackled AI and until such evidence pops up we have to assume that it is a fully unrestricted AI. But a lot of people do not like that idea, because it does not serve their rationalizations.

There is also no evidence that the Catalyst is not on the Citadel, simply a guess not rooted in the text.



Don't criticize others for doing what you are doing, come on now.

Modifié par CINCTuchanka, 14 août 2012 - 12:33 .

[JedTed]

BigBadMammogram wrote...

Now a few people here have offered good explanations as to why it is not a plothole, and a few of the explanations make sense, so that changes it from a 'wtf' plothole to a minor one, but that should have been bioware's job, not ours. They did a terrible job writing the end.

Why does Bioware have to spell everything out?  Everytime this disscussion comes up i think of how little imagination people have that they can't fill in the plotholes themselves.  Televison really is killing creative thinking.


On Topic:  Pre-EC i assumed that the Crucible added Synthesis as a choice, now the Catalyst says that they attempted Synthesis before.  Maybe they didn't have access to the Crucible or someone like Shepard so the plan couldn't be implimented correctly.

Modifié par JedTed, 14 août 2012 - 12:36 .

[clennon8]

CINCTuchanka wrote...

"The Crucible changed me..."

It says so! Right there!

I think the more interesting debate would be why low-EMS destroy and control are presented as they are. The Catalyst is very snippy with you. We know the Crucible is damaged. It doesn't offer Synthesis. Any ideas as to why?

It's snippy because it knows it can't sell you Synthesis due to the Crucible being too damaged to power it.  Synthesis requires more power than Destroy or Control.

[AngryFrozenWater]

CINCTuchanka wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

Wayning_Star wrote...

Like assuming the catalys isn't shackled in any way? Thats impossible to support with ingame data.

That's fairly easy. There is no evidence in the game for the brat being a shackled AI and until such evidence pops up we have to assume that it is a fully unrestricted AI. But a lot of people do not like that idea, because it does not serve their rationalizations.

There is also no evidence that the Catalyst is not on the Citadel, simply a guess not rooted in the text.

Don't criticize others for doing what you are doing, come on now.

The difference is that there is no evidence of it being there either. So I have to assume it is not there.

Modifié par AngryFrozenWater, 14 août 2012 - 12:40 .

[Wayning_Star]

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

Wayning_Star wrote...

Like assuming the catalys isn't shackled in any way? Thats impossible to support with ingame data.

That's fairly easy. There is no evidence in the game for the brat being a shackled AI and until such evidence pops up we have to assume that it is a fully unrestricted AI. But a lot of people do not like that idea, because it does not serve their rationalizations.

well, it does move the citadel, but doesn't just keep the doors closed to keep Shep out, or refuse to permit the citadel from opening, permitting it's reprogramming and talking with a lowly organic Shepard. If it were unshackled, it would simply do everything in it's power to disuade it's updates. Avoid changes, at the very least not permit the audience in the first place. There are no reasons to believe it wasn't shackled, it was only in control as long as programming was apparent for that control. So it was a shackled minor AI. With way too much power at it's disposal. Otherwise, Shep couldn't of hacked into it with the crucible, it wouldn't of permitted it unshackled, free roaming program.

Being shackled is  the only advantage the MEU has against the catalyst. It's probably the only reason it could stay hidden for so long as well.

[Wayning_Star]

clennon8 wrote...

CINCTuchanka wrote...

"The Crucible changed me..."

It says so! Right there!

I think the more interesting debate would be why low-EMS destroy and control are presented as they are. The Catalyst is very snippy with you. We know the Crucible is damaged. It doesn't offer Synthesis. Any ideas as to why?

It's snippy because it knows it can't sell you Synthesis due to the Crucible being too damaged to power it.  Synthesis requires more power than Destroy or Control.

like whiskey, you have to pay more for the good stuff..lol

[AngryFrozenWater]

Wayning_Star wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

Wayning_Star wrote...

Like assuming the catalys isn't shackled in any way? Thats impossible to support with ingame data.

That's fairly easy. There is no evidence in the game for the brat being a shackled AI and until such evidence pops up we have to assume that it is a fully unrestricted AI. But a lot of people do not like that idea, because it does not serve their rationalizations.

well, it does move the citadel, but doesn't just keep the doors closed to keep Shep out, or refuse to permit the citadel from opening, permitting it's reprogramming and talking with a lowly organic Shepard. If it were unshackled, it would simply do everything in it's power to disuade it's updates. Avoid changes, at the very least not permit the audience in the first place. There are no reasons to believe it wasn't shackled, it was only in control as long as programming was apparent for that control. So it was a shackled minor AI. With way too much power at it's disposal. Otherwise, Shep couldn't of hacked into it with the crucible, it wouldn't of permitted it unshackled, free roaming program.

Being shackled is  the only advantage the MEU has against the catalyst. It's probably the only reason it could stay hidden for so long as well.

For some reason it has build those platforms and the elevator. So it clearly wants someone up there. It has created these for a reason. It wants Shepard there. Usually. Not with low EMS. But with a higher EMS it gently wakes you up, instead of asking you what you are doing there.

If you want the brat to be shackled then give me evidence.

Modifié par AngryFrozenWater, 14 août 2012 - 12:49 .

[Wayning_Star]

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

CINCTuchanka wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

Wayning_Star wrote...

Like assuming the catalys isn't shackled in any way? Thats impossible to support with ingame data.

That's fairly easy. There is no evidence in the game for the brat being a shackled AI and until such evidence pops up we have to assume that it is a fully unrestricted AI. But a lot of people do not like that idea, because it does not serve their rationalizations.

There is also no evidence that the Catalyst is not on the Citadel, simply a guess not rooted in the text.

Don't criticize others for doing what you are doing, come on now.

The difference is that there is no evidence of it being there either. So I have to assume it is not there.

OMG, now the game is disappearing..and we thought the reapers were the real threat... crap!! I hate it when that happens to my video games.

[Mr.House]

Starbrat can shut off the crucible. Ya he is shackled all right...

[Gogzilla]

LucasShark wrote...

Elite Midget wrote...

You imply the Starchild can learn or reason either.

Well then he isn't much of an artificial intelligence then is he...

Wait: given the fact he uses circular logic and a massive logical falicy without catching it... yueah I'd say he's a pretty bad AI all arround.

Really Humans do that all the time ??????????????????????????

[Wayning_Star]

JedTed wrote...

BigBadMammogram wrote...

Now a few people here have offered good explanations as to why it is not a plothole, and a few of the explanations make sense, so that changes it from a 'wtf' plothole to a minor one, but that should have been bioware's job, not ours. They did a terrible job writing the end.

Why does Bioware have to spell everything out?  Everytime this disscussion comes up i think of how little imagination people have that they can't fill in the plotholes themselves.  Televison really is killing creative thinking.


On Topic:  Pre-EC i assumed that the Crucible added Synthesis as a choice, now the Catalyst says that they attempted Synthesis before.  Maybe they didn't have access to the Crucible or someone like Shepard so the plan couldn't be implimented correctly.

the pre attempted synthesis is like the big human gizmo on the collector base type synthesis, not actual synthesis option 'created' by the crucible. More advance version would be my guess?

[AsheraII]

More power = more options. Yes, it is as simple as that.
A nuclear missile can fly farther if it carries more fuel. So instead of a nuclear missile capable of flying from Iran to Israel, you get a nuclear missile capable of flying from Iran to the United Kingdoms. More power = more options.

Other application: place a heavier battery into a taser. Or better even, attach it to the power socket in the wall or your car's batteries. Now use the taser on the neighbours' dog. It'll work only once, since the taser will probably burn out with its first shot already, but the results of that first and only shot will be slightly more drastic than they would've been if you just used the standard taser battery. more power = more options.

Modifié par AsheraII, 14 août 2012 - 12:53 .