545 réponses à ce sujet

[fr33stylez]

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

Wayning_Star wrote...

Like assuming the catalys isn't shackled in any way? Thats impossible to support with ingame data.

That's fairly easy. There is no evidence in the game for the brat being a shackled AI and until such evidence pops up we have to assume that it is a fully unrestricted AI. But a lot of people do not like that idea, because it does not serve their rationalizations.

I agree - where did all this shackled business come from?

It's a fully evolved AI that even harvested IT'S OWN CREATORS AGAINST THEIR WILL.

The Catalyst is the sole creator of the Reaper solution - it came to this conclusion on its own. Why would it be shackled?

People want to believe this because in reality, there's no need for Shepard in the entire ending sequence. The Catalyst if it choosed could've created the Curcible on it's own - you can't tell me this is more difficult/complex than building Reapers. Additionally, the Catalyst refuses to just ****** off and take his Reapers with it, because it is happy with its solution.

[AngryFrozenWater]

Wayning_Star wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

CINCTuchanka wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

Wayning_Star wrote...

Like assuming the catalys isn't shackled in any way? Thats impossible to support with ingame data.

That's fairly easy. There is no evidence in the game for the brat being a shackled AI and until such evidence pops up we have to assume that it is a fully unrestricted AI. But a lot of people do not like that idea, because it does not serve their rationalizations.

There is also no evidence that the Catalyst is not on the Citadel, simply a guess not rooted in the text.

Don't criticize others for doing what you are doing, come on now.

The difference is that there is no evidence of it being there either. So I have to assume it is not there.

OMG, now the game is disappearing..and we thought the reapers were the real threat... crap!! I hate it when that happens to my video games.

You cannot even shoot the brat. It doesn't kill it. It gets angry if you do, but that's all. You can walk right through it, though. Just like any other hologram. Try it, the next time you visit the brat.

Modifié par AngryFrozenWater, 14 août 2012 - 12:56 .

[Wayning_Star]

Mr.House wrote...

Starbrat can shut off the crucible. Ya he is shackled all right...

ONLY if Shepard decides to walk away. New ballgame then. But it's still shackled either way, by it's core program of stopping the chaos via the cycle. It's locked into a failed program that creates the chaos by attempting to stop chaos.

It doesn't actually know what chaos is, its not organic or very smart actually, certainly not sapient. No intuition, defiinitely in need of spiritual guidence. lol

[Hannah Montana]

Catalyst: The crucible changed me, *turns off the crucible and rapes shepard*.

[Wayning_Star]

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

Wayning_Star wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

CINCTuchanka wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

Wayning_Star wrote...

Like assuming the catalys isn't shackled in any way? Thats impossible to support with ingame data.

That's fairly easy. There is no evidence in the game for the brat being a shackled AI and until such evidence pops up we have to assume that it is a fully unrestricted AI. But a lot of people do not like that idea, because it does not serve their rationalizations.

There is also no evidence that the Catalyst is not on the Citadel, simply a guess not rooted in the text.

Don't criticize others for doing what you are doing, come on now.

The difference is that there is no evidence of it being there either. So I have to assume it is not there.

OMG, now the game is disappearing..and we thought the reapers were the real threat... crap!! I hate it when that happens to my video games.

You cannot even shoot the brat. It doesn't kill it. It gets angry if you do, but that's all. You can walk right through it, though. Just like any other hologram. Try it, the next time you vist the brat.

I never tried it cause I heard it'll go straight for the walk away choice if you show hostility towards it?

[CINCTuchanka]

So, things we know about the Crucible:

1. It is primarily a power source.

2. The more damage it takes, the fewer options and vice versa. - See Low EMS Destroy

3. The more damage it takes, the less happy it is to see Shep. Catalyst: "WAKE UP"

4. It changes the Catalyst- Catalyst: "The Crucible changed me"

5. It created new possibilities - Catalyst: "...created new...possibilities."

Things We Know About the Catalyst

1. It is an AI.

2. It cannot find a new solution on its own. - High EMS "But I can't make them happen." or Low Ems: "That's up to you."

3. It has preferences. At the very least it prefers Synthesis over Control . - Catalyst would be "forced" to accept Control, finds Synthesis to be the "ideal" solution.

I think we should use this as the basis for discussion so at least we have some basic facts straight.

Modifié par CINCTuchanka, 14 août 2012 - 01:22 .

[Wayning_Star]

Hannah Montana wrote...

Catalyst: The crucible changed me, *turns off the crucible and rapes shepard*.

hi hannah, hows the weather in montana?

If yur bored heres a primer to read up.

http://www.smosh.com...internet-trolls

[AngryFrozenWater]

Wayning_Star wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

Wayning_Star wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

CINCTuchanka wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

Wayning_Star wrote...

Like assuming the catalys isn't shackled in any way? Thats impossible to support with ingame data.

That's fairly easy. There is no evidence in the game for the brat being a shackled AI and until such evidence pops up we have to assume that it is a fully unrestricted AI. But a lot of people do not like that idea, because it does not serve their rationalizations.

There is also no evidence that the Catalyst is not on the Citadel, simply a guess not rooted in the text.

Don't criticize others for doing what you are doing, come on now.

The difference is that there is no evidence of it being there either. So I have to assume it is not there.

OMG, now the game is disappearing..and we thought the reapers were the real threat... crap!! I hate it when that happens to my video games.

You cannot even shoot the brat. It doesn't kill it. It gets angry if you do, but that's all. You can walk right through it, though. Just like any other hologram. Try it, the next time you vist the brat.

I never tried it cause I heard it'll go straight for the walk away choice if you show hostility towards it?

Correct. Shooting it is the same as refuse through dialogue.

[BigBadMammogram]

robertthebard wrote...

BigBadMammogram wrote...

maaaze wrote...

3) Yes indeed. but the original likelihood of Synthetics destroying all Organics is much higher than monkeys flying out of peoples butt. much more higher

You cant have a probability greater than 100%... So with an infinite amount of time, synthetics would rebel against their creators, and monkeys would fly out of peoples butts, dogs would eat invading army's that landed on a tennis ball, cats and dogs would be living together in harmony, etc...

With enough time, anything will happen. And the odds of all of those things happening are exactly the same. 100%

Care to share the statistical probability of monkeys flying out of people's butts?  I mean, unless you have first hand knowledge, in which case maybe I don't really want to know about how you got them up there in the first place.

Lets say that every day, there is a 1 in 100 trillion chance of a monkey flying out of someone's butt. Given an infinite amount of time, the odds are .000000000001/day * infinity, therefore the event will happen an infinite amount of times. Basic math. But im fairly sure this lightspeed thread has moved past this, so back to discussing whatever the hell you guys are currently on.

[CINCTuchanka]

BigBadMammogram wrote...

robertthebard wrote...

BigBadMammogram wrote...

maaaze wrote...

3) Yes indeed. but the original likelihood of Synthetics destroying all Organics is much higher than monkeys flying out of peoples butt. much more higher

You cant have a probability greater than 100%... So with an infinite amount of time, synthetics would rebel against their creators, and monkeys would fly out of peoples butts, dogs would eat invading army's that landed on a tennis ball, cats and dogs would be living together in harmony, etc...

With enough time, anything will happen. And the odds of all of those things happening are exactly the same. 100%

Care to share the statistical probability of monkeys flying out of people's butts?  I mean, unless you have first hand knowledge, in which case maybe I don't really want to know about how you got them up there in the first place.

Lets say that every day, there is a 1 in 100 trillion chance of a monkey flying out of someone's butt. Given an infinite amount of time, the odds are .000000000001/day * infinity, therefore the event will happen an infinite amount of times. Basic math. But im fairly sure this lightspeed thread has moved past this, so back to discussing whatever the hell you guys are currently on.

"there is a 1 in 100 trillion chance of a monkey flying out of someone's butt."

Wait you're saying this is supposed to be unlikely?

I...I should see a physician...

[BigBadMammogram]

Only if you have a sudden craving to stick a bannanna up your... yeah im going to stop there. This is getting weird.

[CINCTuchanka]

BigBadMammogram wrote...

Only if you have a sudden craving to stick a bannanna up your... yeah im going to stop there. This is getting weird.

"The banana changed me, created new...possibilities."

Modifié par CINCTuchanka, 14 août 2012 - 01:10 .

[Wayning_Star]

CINCTuchanka wrote...

So, things we know about the Crucible:

1. It is primarily a power source.

2. The more damage it takes, the fewer options and vice versa. - See Low EMS Destroy

3. The more damage it takes, the less happy it is to see Shep. Catalyst: "WAKE UP"

4. It changes the Catalyst- Catalyst: "The Crucible changed me"

5. It created new possibilities - Catalyst: "...created new...possibilities."

Things We Know About the Catalyst

1. It is an AI.

2. It cannot find a new solution on its own. - High EMS "But I can't make them happen." or Low Ems: "That's up to you."

3. It has preferences. At the very least it prefers Control over Synthesis. - Catalyst would be "forced" to accept Control, finds Synthesis to be the "ideal" solution.

I think we should use this as the basis for discussion so at least we have some basic facts straight.

well, most of it passes muster, but a few are debatable.

control over synthesis? You meant synthesis over control, right?

of which I cannot see the preference to any choice, as I don't see it getting testy on any decision,even walk away, it only resumes the Reaper false bravado.

The ems thing is probably game mechanics, like the tags in the game with speech menu, pick the correct response can lead to better responses, or more of them.

Primary power source seems only half way there, as these new options have to come from somewhere other than the citadel/catalyst. They're outsid it's programming.

It's a minor AI with shackles to limit its ability to adapt to Sheps/Alliance advance and resistance. If unshackled it would get found out while entertaining its self over billions of years,its a statistical impossibility otherwise, even being shackled make it seem impossible someone out there wouldn't of discovered it roaming about the citadel, it had to shut down, would be my guess to save energy and provide invisablity to curious onlookers for that long. Heck I don't think it even handled any obvious harvesting, as that would be recorded somwhere by someone over the millenium.

[BigBadMammogram]

CINCTuchanka wrote...

BigBadMammogram wrote...

Only if you have a sudden craving to stick a bannanna up your... yeah im going to stop there. This is getting weird.

"The banana changed me, created new...possibilities."

Holy crap. Thank you for making me crack up at work, when Im not supposed to be wasting time on the internet. Hopefully no one noticed.

[CINCTuchanka]

Wayning_Star wrote...

CINCTuchanka wrote...

So, things we know about the Crucible:

1. It is primarily a power source.

2. The more damage it takes, the fewer options and vice versa. - See Low EMS Destroy

3. The more damage it takes, the less happy it is to see Shep. Catalyst: "WAKE UP"

4. It changes the Catalyst- Catalyst: "The Crucible changed me"

5. It created new possibilities - Catalyst: "...created new...possibilities."

Things We Know About the Catalyst

1. It is an AI.

2. It cannot find a new solution on its own. - High EMS "But I can't make them happen." or Low Ems: "That's up to you."

3. It has preferences. At the very least it prefers Control over Synthesis. - Catalyst would be "forced" to accept Control, finds Synthesis to be the "ideal" solution.

I think we should use this as the basis for discussion so at least we have some basic facts straight.

well, most of it passes muster, but a few are debatable.

control over synthesis? You meant synthesis over control, right?

of which I cannot see the preference to any choice, as I don't see it getting testy on any decision,even walk away, it only resumes the Reaper false bravado.

The ems thing is probably game mechanics, like the tags in the game with speech menu, pick the correct response can lead to better responses, or more of them.

Primary power source seems only half way there, as these new options have to come from somewhere other than the citadel/catalyst. They're outsid it's programming.

It's a minor AI with shackles to limit its ability to adapt to Sheps/Alliance advance and resistance. If unshackled it would get found out while entertaining its self over billions of years,its a statistical impossibility otherwise, even being shackled make it seem impossible someone out there wouldn't of discovered it roaming about the citadel, it had to shut down, would be my guess to save energy and provide invisablity to curious onlookers for that long. Heck I don't think it even handled any obvious harvesting, as that would be recorded somwhere by someone over the millenium.

Oh yeah, duh, Synthesis over Control, my bad.  I do think it says that Synthesis is the "ideal" solution though, and isn't too enthused with being replaced by Catalyst-Shep in Control. I'll fix that part of my post.

As far as EMS, I suppose it is a rather inscrutable system.  Personally, I thought it was a mixture of ground and space forces along with Crucible additions that allowed for a defended and well constructed Crucible.  Ground forces could have aided in that if there were more of them they could have drawn off more Sovereign class reapers during the final push.  As Anderson says: "Several Sovereign class Reapers including Harbinger have left the battle and are heading our way" and that "This gives Hackett a chance to get the Crucible into position."  So, somwhat clumsily, I think BioWare was trying to imply that Hammer draws forces from Space.  Because it takes 2 km tall sentient starships to take down Shep.  Because he/she is a bada** like that.

As to being a power source, I agree that the Crucible is more than that.   I think that the fact that the Crucible "changes" the Catalyst somehow indicates that changing and harnessing the power of the Catalyst is part of its function.  After all, Vendetta says that use of the Catalyst became part of the design at some point in the past.

Modifié par CINCTuchanka, 14 août 2012 - 01:23 .

[CINCTuchanka]

BigBadMammogram wrote...

CINCTuchanka wrote...

BigBadMammogram wrote...

Only if you have a sudden craving to stick a bannanna up your... yeah im going to stop there. This is getting weird.

"The banana changed me, created new...possibilities."

Holy crap. Thank you for making me crack up at work, when Im not supposed to be wasting time on the internet. Hopefully no one noticed.

Then my work here is done.

[Wayning_Star]

CINCTuchanka wrote...

Wayning_Star wrote...

CINCTuchanka wrote...

So, things we know about the Crucible:

1. It is primarily a power source.

2. The more damage it takes, the fewer options and vice versa. - See Low EMS Destroy

3. The more damage it takes, the less happy it is to see Shep. Catalyst: "WAKE UP"

4. It changes the Catalyst- Catalyst: "The Crucible changed me"

5. It created new possibilities - Catalyst: "...created new...possibilities."

Things We Know About the Catalyst

1. It is an AI.

2. It cannot find a new solution on its own. - High EMS "But I can't make them happen." or Low Ems: "That's up to you."

3. It has preferences. At the very least it prefers Control over Synthesis. - Catalyst would be "forced" to accept Control, finds Synthesis to be the "ideal" solution.

I think we should use this as the basis for discussion so at least we have some basic facts straight.

well, most of it passes muster, but a few are debatable.

control over synthesis? You meant synthesis over control, right?

of which I cannot see the preference to any choice, as I don't see it getting testy on any decision,even walk away, it only resumes the Reaper false bravado.

The ems thing is probably game mechanics, like the tags in the game with speech menu, pick the correct response can lead to better responses, or more of them.

Primary power source seems only half way there, as these new options have to come from somewhere other than the citadel/catalyst. They're outsid it's programming.

It's a minor AI with shackles to limit its ability to adapt to Sheps/Alliance advance and resistance. If unshackled it would get found out while entertaining its self over billions of years,its a statistical impossibility otherwise, even being shackled make it seem impossible someone out there wouldn't of discovered it roaming about the citadel, it had to shut down, would be my guess to save energy and provide invisablity to curious onlookers for that long. Heck I don't think it even handled any obvious harvesting, as that would be recorded somwhere by someone over the millenium.

Oh yeah, duh, Synthesis over Control, my bad.  I do think it says that Synthesis is the "ideal" solution though, and isn't too enthused with being replaced by Catalyst-Shep in Control. I'll fix that part of my post.

As far as EMS, I suppose it is a rather inscrutable system.  Personally, I thought it was a mixture of ground and space forces along with Crucible additions that allowed for a defended and well constructed Crucible.  Ground forces could have aided in that if there were more of them they could have drawn off more Sovereign class reapers during the final push.  As Anderson says: "Several Sovereign class Reapers including Harbinger have left the battle and are heading our way" and that "This gives Hackett a chance to get the Crucible into position."  So, somwhat clumsily, I think BioWare was trying to imply that Hammer draws forces from Space.  Because it takes 2 km tall sentient starships to take down Shep.  Because he/she is a bada** like that.

As to being a power source, I agree that the Crucible is more than that.   I think that the fact that the Crucible "changes" the Catalyst somehow indicates that changing and harnessing the power of the Catalyst is part of its function.  After all, Vendetta says that use of the Catalyst became part of the design at some point in the past.

you mean crucible becomes part of the design at some point in the past?

I'm starting to see double, and not the fun way either..time to take an internet break..lol

Thanks for the chat everyone.. learned a lot about nothing..all good!!



well, Hannah was a bit off topic..etc lol

[The Spamming Troll]

CINCTuchanka wrote...

3. The more damage it takes, the less happy it is to see Shep. Catalyst: "WAKE UP"

what else does he say?

[Jonata]

The Catalyst had not enough power to achieve Synthesis, Control or Destroy without the Crucible. Once the Crucible has docked, the Citadel has now enough power to make a complete Galactic rewriting, but the Catalyst cannot do it on his own because he is a Consensus-minded being (in fact, he is the avatar of the Reapers consensus) so he pick up Shepard, the one that was responsible of uniting an entire Galaxy and making those choices viable.

I don't see any problem.

[BigBadMammogram]

Jonata wrote...

The Catalyst had not enough power to achieve Synthesis, Control or Destroy without the Crucible. Once the Crucible has docked, the Citadel has now enough power to make a complete Galactic rewriting, but the Catalyst cannot do it on his own because he is a Consensus-minded being (in fact, he is the avatar of the Reapers consensus) so he pick up Shepard, the one that was responsible of uniting an entire Galaxy and making those choices viable.

I don't see any problem.

The problem is that none of that is explained in game. So your headcannon is no more valid than anyone else's headcannon.

It was Bioware's job to tie up this story. They failed, horribly. The ending to Lost made more sense than this.

[OMTING52601]

BigBadMammogram wrote...

Jonata wrote...

The Catalyst had not enough power to achieve Synthesis, Control or Destroy without the Crucible. Once the Crucible has docked, the Citadel has now enough power to make a complete Galactic rewriting, but the Catalyst cannot do it on his own because he is a Consensus-minded being (in fact, he is the avatar of the Reapers consensus) so he pick up Shepard, the one that was responsible of uniting an entire Galaxy and making those choices viable.

I don't see any problem.

The problem is that none of that is explained in game. So your headcannon is no more valid than anyone else's headcannon.

It was Bioware's job to tie up this story. They failed, horribly. The ending to Lost made more sense than this.

I have to agree with BigBad. There's nothing wrong with how anyone chooses to interpret the end in their own imagination.

But there isn't - without inferring or interpreting data subjectively - clear, irrefutable information supplied in the game proper to make claims of absolute truths. And that is exactly how the end game, at least, was designed to function. I know a lot of people sneer, but 'speculation for everyone' wasn't initially meant as a snide quip to further stir enraged fans. It's what Walters and Hudson wanted for the finale. FWIW, not trying to irk anyone.

[Geneaux486]

NO: the crucible did NOT "create new options"

Youtube any of the endings.  The Catalyst clearly states that the Crucible created new possibilities.  That's actually a pretty basic detail about the endings.  Hope that helps!

Modifié par Geneaux486, 14 août 2012 - 02:15 .

[Darth Death]

The star child is pretty much useless.

[Jonata]

I genuinely do not understand why explaining that you can alter the Galaxy's DNA but not explaining why a platform comes up is considered a "writing fail" from BioWare.

[Geneaux486]

Darth Death wrote...

The star child is pretty much useless.

Exactly, he's an expositional tool, nothing more.