304 réponses à ce sujet

[Emzamination]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Emzamination wrote...

You do remember the backlash when the ME team tried to make Me3 the new CoD right? The discrimination is sad but mandatory.

You mean how ME3's multiplayer was well-received critically (much to the surprise of critics) and making them a ton of money?  Or how ME3's combat has more depth than ME2's?  About the only sustained criticism I've heard about ME3 is of course everything about the endings, the preponderance of fetch quests, and their having overdone autodialogs.  Nothing about combat, except from people who wanted ME1's back.  

What are you even talking about?   

Not to mention, the CoD-crowd stuff is the worst kind of meme.  Can you even remember the article it's derived from?  Or what the BioWare representative even said?

I never said the combat was horrible or in anyway diminished gameplay in that aspect, my statement is impliying that the game Alienated the core rpg fan base in favor of focusing on combat to try and pull gamers from a different market.Bio Trade marks such as In-depth romances as well as various other rpg elements I've high lighted in your post were neglected in favor of making Me3 a more CoD oriented Expierence which in turn led to the great divide that gave birth to HTL.Gamers of Differing markets must remain seperated.

In regard to 'your' bolded print this and also This 3:40 to 4:50, Notice how he bypasses Rpg aspects in favor of combat.Welp I believe the validity of my Argument has been proven, Upsettingshorts

[jbrand2002uk]

Well its all swings and roundabouts right now Bioware seems to go through a bad patch everyso often with its games design alternating between minor and major mistakes, wheras Bethseda cant make a game that works straight out of the box without at least half a dozen patches to stop it crashing every 20 secs( dont get me started on how Skyrim likes to misplace 1.5GB of essential files when you occasionally use the officially sanctioned Steam Workshop to download a mod to fix the half baked job they did like with the High Resolution Textures not being done properly thus requiring a fix lol )

[Sylvius the Mad]

Renmiri1 wrote...

Playing Hawke feels natural to me. Well I should say playing Paragon or Sarcastic Hawke feels natural.. Playing the "Direct" Hawke feels very wrong because I disagree with most of what she says.

If we're just choosing personality, shouldn't Hawke basically say the same thing each time, but say it in a different way?

If we're choosing actual materially different options, then how we say it is less important than what we say.  I thought that was the point of the action icon (the triple arrow) and the dominant tone system.

Just think of Hawke as the inverse Warden. The Warden loses everything he holds dear, twice, and has to take on responsibility for a legendary task, pretty much in the first 2-3 hours of the game. But there is nothing left for the Warden to do. All his friends and family are gone to him/ her. His life as he had known is over. He has no one left to protect but a clueless whinny man child.

Hawke does not lose all her family. He/she loses one sibling and their family's land but life as Hawke knew is not over, there are still another sibling and an elderly mother to care for. In contrast wih the Warden, Hawke is getting BACK to the place he/she grew up, after leaving for adventure. This return is not forced or unavoidable, Hawke choses to return, to protect  his/her loved ones. The Warden has no choice but leave exiled or conscripted. Hawke choses to go back. He / she choses to let the mother drag them to Kirkwall. 

But because of that choice, Hawke has most other choices taken from her/ him. The Warden has nothing to lose when he/she goes to fight the Archdemon. Hawke has a family to care for, that he/she has chosen to return to and save from the Blight, i.e. their loss is unnaceptable for him/ her. Hawke is every bit the skilled warrior / rogue / mage that the Warden is, but he/she can not go fight an Archdemon. Because people depend on him/her. There are no larger than life battles and kings, arls and queens to deal with. Not because Hawke is inferior to the Warden, but because Hawke has opted to saddle himself / herself to fragile non combatant people he/she loves. Instead of saving humanity in Thedas, Hawke has to settle her sights in saving her loved ones in a city. Because he/ she decides that leaving his/ her loved ones at fate's mercy is not acceptable. The Warden doesn't leave anyone behind. But he Warden doesn't have anyone to leave behind. Hawke does. Would the Warden have acted differently if he/she had a family alive needing him / her ? My Warden would. Your Warden ? Being that he/she riskes life and limb to save perfect strangers it is a safe bet that your Warden would be at least very thorn if he/she had to chose between saving Thedas or saving family.

Two things.  First, I understand how Hawke might be motivated to follow along with the story in DA2.  Learning how to do that is pretty much integral to being able to enjoy CRPGs.  But I don't understand how to implement that motivation.  Unless I happen to choose the exact same specific motivation for each individual choice that BioWare expects me to, I find Hawke saying and doing really incongruous things.

Second, As I see it, the way in which Hawke and the Warden are inverse is the Warden actually gets to make decisions about his life, but Hawke doesn't.  The Warden makes things happen, while Hawke just gets swept along with events no matter what he does.  That makes Hawke far more frustrating for me to play.

Third (I know, I said two things), I don't want to put myself in Hawke's shoes.  I want to create an entirely new character each time I play, and that character may or may not resemble me.  So every Hawke I create would have different opinions and ideas about the flight from Lothering, and Leandra's decision to go to Kirkwall, and the likelihood of his sister being captured by the Templars.  Some Hawkes will have loyalty to Fereldens, some will not.  Some Hawkes will think slavers are evil, but some will not.  Some Hawkes will think Fenris is juistified in hating his former masters, but at the same time wrong to blame all mages for his suffering.  But I can't figure out how to implement those character designs - that last one appears to be completely impossible.

I start putting myself in Hawke's shoes, running away form the impending Darkspawn horde with a fragile non-combatant mother and two younger siblings, having to keep them alive. And your mother insists on going to a Templar infested city on another country!

Yes, she does.  In doing so, she's effectively ruined my life, and yet I'm still forced to worry about her.  That's another possible Hawke that I couldn't implement.

Is this that hard to RP ?

I think it's quite hard to RP the very specific character they've provided for us without them having given us any indication in advance that we weren't allowed to play a different one, yes.

Your own wishes matter little because, like most of us in RL, you have friends and family to care for and you have little ability to just go out in the world killing Archdemons and being a world hero.

Assuming I actually do care about them.  If my Hawke doesn't care about family or supposed friends, the game leaves me with nothing to do.

Similarly, if I choose sides in the Mage/templaer conflict before the game asks me to do so, I'm once again left with nothing to do.  I might be committed to helping the mages, or at least not helping the Templars, but then the game will not progress unless I respond to Meredith's letter?  What?  A mage Hawke would have to have a death wish to want to deal with that woman.

Can you be like Isabella and just leave ?

Yes!  Happily!  Oh, wait.  I'm not allowed.

[upsettingshorts]

Emzamination wrote...


In regard to 'your' bolded print this and also This 3:40 to 4:50, Notice how he bypasses Rpg aspects in favor of combat.Welp I believe the validity of my Argument has been proven, Upsettingshorts

You believe wrong, since those things are newer than the COD meme to which I refer.  The COD meme predates the release of DA2, and was also about marketing.  

Plus, all you've established is the marketing track.  Which has nothing to do with the gameplay itself.  

[JoltDealer]

Sure there was a tonal shift in terms of its presentation, but DA2 was a fun game. I think the only difference was that in DAO, I felt more connected to the Warden than I ever did to Hawke. I think my only real problems with DA2 was the lack of a central, overarching plot and having a more defined character.

[Vanilka]

Renmiri1 wrote...
Is this so hard to RP ?

Yes. Yes, it is. It's not the circumstances that bothers me. It's Hawke's personality. No matter what you do, Hawke's personality is given and you can do nothing about it. Like it or not. In my case, it's the latter, unfortunately. The only thing you can do is to pick a dominant trait (diplomatic, sarcastic, aggressive)... yeah, or have Hawke with multiple personality disorder.

Each of my Wardens have unique personality, motivations, different reasons and ways for doing things. Because there's space for it in DA:O. They are mine, I decide who and how they should or shouldn't be. They're usually a little bit of "everything" in their own way. Not just an exaggerated caricature of one personality trait. I care about my Wardens, I'm fond of them. Not so much of Hawke. Not only I'm not able to make my Hawke the person I want her to be, personalitywise, I can't bring myself to like any of the personalities that are available. Even though I tried. I really wanted and was prepared to like the character. But I can't.

I started playing DA2 a few days ago and while I like the game well enough and tried to be open to the protagonist as much as I could, I simply dislike Hawke. I started the game three times before I was able to come to terms with the character at least a little. No matter what personality I'd chosen. Before getting to the middle of the 1st act, I always got so frustrated with the protagonist I deleted the character. The only way to be able to play for me is to give up on the character completely and let it live its own life. So I pretend she's just another NPC and I'm trying not to struggle too much. I have never felt that detached from any of my Wardens.

It doesn't help in the slightest that I can only guess what she's going to say before I click a dialogue option. It often happens that I click A only to get B, and have to reload because that's simply not what I meant. The dialogue options often have nothing to do with what the character is going to say, which is absolutely ridiculous. After a while, I've almost stopped struggling. But my role-playing experience is reduced to clicking the button with the same colour repeatedly with very little change here and there in order to keep the character consistent at the very least.

So, yes. For some of us, it is hard to RP a character that is not our own and that has a personality we dislike on the top of it. You said yourself that you don't like playing aggressive Hawke because you don't agree with him/her in most things. Well, imagine that for some of us, all of the three personality types feel the same as playing aggressive Hawke feels to you. I'm not saying it's the game's or the writer's fault. I imagine it's pretty much impossible to make everyone happy. Maybe it's my fault for not being flexible enough. But that doesn't change the fact the set protagonist makes the game hard to play for some of us.

However, aside from my constant urge to punch Hawke in the face and a few other things, I must say I do like the game. Not nearly as much as I like Origins, which is my favourite game of all time, but I wouldn't call DA2 a terrible game. Even though it has its... quirks.

Sorry, I'm quitting my ranting now.

Modifié par Vanilka of the Sword Coast, 18 août 2012 - 12:35 .

[zyntifox]

Vanilka of the Sword Coast wrote...

Renmiri1 wrote...
Is this so hard to RP ?

Yes. Yes, it is. It's not the circumstances that bothers me. It's Hawke's personality. No matter what you do, Hawke's personality is given and you can do nothing about it. Like it or not. In my case, it's the latter, unfortunately. The only thing you can do is to pick a dominant trait (diplomatic, sarcastic, aggressive)... yeah, or have Hawke with multiple personality disorder.

Each of my Wardens have unique personality, motivations, different reasons and ways for doing things. Because there's space for it in DA:O. They are mine, I decide who and how they should or shouldn't be. They're usually a little bit of "everything" in their own way. Not just an exaggerated caricature of one personality trait. I care about my Wardens, I'm fond of them. Not so much of Hawke. Not only I'm not able to make my Hawke the person I want her to be, personalitywise, I can't bring myself to like any of the personalities that are available. Even though I tried. I really wanted and was prepared to like the character. But I can't.

I started playing DA2 a few days ago and while I like the game well enough and tried to be open to the protagonist as much as I could, I simply dislike Hawke. I started the game three times before I was able to come to terms with the character at least a little. No matter what personality I'd chosen. Before getting to the middle of the 1st act, I always got so frustrated with the protagonist I deleted the character. The only way to be able to play for me is to give up on the character completely and let it live its own life. So I pretend she's just another NPC and I'm trying not to struggle too much. I have never felt that detached from any of my Wardens.

It doesn't help in the slightest that I can only guess what she's going to say before I click a dialogue option. It often happens that I click A only to get B, and have to reload because that's simply not what I meant. The dialogue options often have nothing to do with what the character is going to say, which is absolutely ridiculous. After a while, I've almost stopped struggling. But my role-playing experience is reduced to clicking the button with the same colour repeatedly with very little change here and there in order to keep the character consistent at the very least.

So, yes. For some of us, it is hard to RP a character that is not our own and that has a personality we dislike on the top of it. You said yourself that you don't like playing aggressive Hawke because you don't agree with him/her in most things. Well, imagine that for some of us, all of the three personality types feel the same as playing aggressive Hawke feels to you. I'm not saying it's the game's or the writer's fault. I imagine it's pretty much impossible to make everyone happy. Maybe it's my fault for not being flexible enough. But that doesn't change the fact the set protagonist makes the game hard to play for some of us.

However, aside from my constant urge to punch Hawke in the face and a few other things, I must say I do like the game. Not nearly as much as I like Origins, which is my favourite game of all time, but I wouldn't call DA2 a terrible game. Even though it has its... quirks.

Sorry, I'm quitting my ranting now.

I had to reload dozens of times due to constantly being suprised by the dialogue, it's extremely frustrating. After a while, before i even got down to the deep roads, i gaved up and stopped caring. Didn't even try to interpret what my PC would say and just choosed randomly an option to progress the game to see if the story was any good.

[jillabender]

Sylvius the Mad wrote…

If we're just choosing personality, shouldn't Hawke basically say the same thing each time, but say it in a different way?

If we're choosing actual materially different options, then how we say it is less important than what we say. I thought that was the point of the action icon (the triple arrow) and the dominant tone system.

That's one of the things that made the dialogue wheel and paraphrase system frustrating for me – it was hard to be sure at any given time whether I was making a materially different choice about the content of what Hawke would say, or simply choosing his or her demeanour.

I'd also add that I think my difficulty with the story in DA2 wasn't so much the idea of Hawke being a bystander reluctantly drawn into the conflict, but the fact that the focus of the story wasn't really on Hawke as a person. For the overall story arc to feel satisfying to me, it would have needed to be more focused on the idea of Hawke facing an inner struggle, changing and growing as a person because of how he or she chose to deal with events beyond his or her control.

Modifié par jillabender, 18 août 2012 - 01:36 .

[Renmiri1]

All good points, DA2 does force you to go with Hawke's major decision, which is going to save her family and staying with them regardless of his / her wishes.

I didn't mind but I can see how it would grate on some players. I was just giving you my thoughts on how I RP'd it in a way that flowed well with the game.

As for the dialog summary and what Hawke says, I also RP'd like she said the summary first, then added what she said in voice dialog. This way it didn't feel like I was choosing "A" and she said "B". Worked for me at least.

[Cutlasskiwi]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

See what I mean about DA3 crystalizing things and DA2's "we had no choice" compromises being lumped in with deliberate design philosophy decisions?

There's some stuff in here BioWare changed deliberately, with pros and cons (like companion customization).  There's some stuff in here that's entirely your-mileage-may-vary (such as the companions' writing), there's some stuff in here I'll argue till I'm blue in the face that Corto81 has completely wrong (stuff worth arguing about), and there's stuff in here that BioWare had to do to get the game onto shelves and for no other reason (enemy waves, recycled areas).

Just to demonstrate what I mean further:

• Companion customization being reduced to null was done to promote unique looks for each character.  That DA3 is expanding upon this premise by reintroducing some customization will, I think, be an improvement.  But it's something they wanted to do and there's something to be gained from it.  Something plenty of folks don't care about per se, but that's not the point.
• I don't understand how any observant, critically thinking person can say that DA2's characters are suddenly more shallow or less likable than any in BioWare's history.  Personally I view this as a presentation problem.  You had to get to know them differently, and couldn't interrogate them at will and at length any time you wanted.  BioWare's writers have conceded that front-loading the dialogue more might have fixed this.  I'm guessing this is also why Carth is considered to have been "whiny" and a guy who "whines" near constantly about dead Duncan (even having to be reminded of whatever personal tragedy went down in your origin) is never criticized for it.  Whereas DA2 characters are constantly asking Hawke how much being forced out of Ferelden meant to them... hmm.....
• The whole of "your choices didn't matter" arguments simply infuriate me.  Almost all of them are inevitably begging for epilogue cards to tell them which plot flags they set.  Give me a break.  The rest define "choices that matter" as stuff like... choosing the King of Orzammar.  A decision you make whose consequences you never get to experience and serve only to ensure that future content won't be able to support both choices without glossing over the difference.  See, there are arguments about some of these things.  Continuing on...
• Whether or not the protagonist is "shallow and unlikable" or even "to most" is up for debate.  Personally I think with protagonists you get what you put into them.  As someone who hates silent protagonists (in games where everyone else is voiced), I never felt like the Warden was much of a character and as such was never attached to what came off to me as a shell.  Others have a hard time getting into the role when there's a voice, and likewise can't get into the character. However, if Hawke was shallow and unlikable, that's your fault.  It's also my fault that the Warden was shallow and emotionless.  We get what we put into them, that we're more able to put something into a protagonist when they're presented a certain way is a different argument.
• Ridiculous story twists?  Such as?  I'm guessing this will be another case of YMMV.  Or giving other games with equally ridiculous story twists a pass because you bought-in to them and not DA2.
• HOWEVER
• THERE IS LITERALLY NO PRO-ARGUMENT FOR RECYCLED AREAS AND WAVES-FALLING-FROM-THE-SKY.  NOBODY LIKED IT.  NOT EVEN BIOWARE.  THERE IS NO ARGUING ABOUT IT.  YET PEOPLE LIST IT AS SOMETHING ANYONE WHO LIKED DA2 MUST HAVE PREFERRED.  NO.  IT'S IN THE GAME BECAUSE IT WAS MADE IN TEN FREAKING MONTHS.

This has to be the best post I've seen on the BSN in a very long time, just thought that it needed to be quoted again.

[Sylvius the Mad]

jillabender wrote...

That's one of the things that made the dialogue wheel and paraphrase system frustrating for me – it was hard to be sure at any given time whether I was making a materially different choice about the content of what Hawke would say, or simply choosing his or her demeanour.

Exactly.  There was no way to know.

I'd also add that I think my difficulty with the story in DA2 wasn't so much the idea of Hawke being a bystander reluctantly drawn into the conflict, but the fact that the focus of the story wasn't really on Hawke as a person. For the overall story arc to feel satisfying to me, it would have needed to be more focused on the idea of Hawke facing an inner struggle, changing and growing as a person because of how he or she chose to deal with events beyond his or her control.

When I get to create and control the character personality myself, this pretty much describes every game.

Modifié par Sylvius the Mad, 19 août 2012 - 05:00 .

[jillabender]

Upsettingshorts wrote…

I don't understand how any observant, critically thinking person can say that DA2's characters are suddenly more shallow or less likable than any in BioWare's history. Personally I view this as a presentation problem. You had to get to know them differently, and couldn't interrogate them at will and at length any time you wanted. BioWare's writers have conceded that front-loading the dialogue more might have fixed this. I'm guessing this is also why Carth is considered to have been "whiny" and a guy who "whines" near constantly about dead Duncan (even having to be reminded of whatever personal tragedy went down in your origin) is never criticized for it.

Actually, there are plenty of people who do complain about Alistair being whiny – I've seen a few threads on the topic in the DA:O forums.

I agree that the companions in DA2 were all interesting characters in their own right, and I wouldn't call any of them shallow. It was the way I had to get to know them, as you said, that I didn't quite find satisfying.

In another thread, I said that the fact that most of the conversations with companion characters in DA2 focused on a single dilemma or aspect of their personality made them feel a bit one-note to me at times. After thinking about it more, I think that may not have been entirely fair or accurate. I think what I missed in DA2 was being able to define for myself how my character is affected as a person by his or her interactions with other characters.

I found the pre-determined friendship and rivalry paths frustrating at times, because when I tried to come up with an in-character reason for Hawke to pursue one path or the other with a companion character, the authored narrative sometimes contradicted that motivation.

Modifié par jillabender, 19 août 2012 - 07:24 .

[jillabender]

Sorry, accidentally posted my comment twice.

Modifié par jillabender, 19 août 2012 - 05:05 .

[Vanilka]

I agree with you wholeheartedly, jillabender. I, personally, find DAII companions rather likeable. A few of them were love at the first sight for me. Yes, a few of them not so much. But most of them seem to be quite interesting from what I've seen so far. However, I do miss what I had in DA:O. I could just stay in the camp or stop what I was doing for a while and talk to my companions, explore their personalities, get to like them. Whenever I wanted. I enjoyed that very much. I feel that there are so few companion dialogues in DAII in comparison with DA:O. I understand that some people prefer combat and questing to chating with fictional characters, but "silly" things like this just make the experience richer and more fun, in my opinion, and I'm sad to see them go.

I'm also not sure about the friendship and rivalry system. I don't think it's a bad idea. What drives me mad, however, is that the points you get are mostly focused on how you feel about the conflict between mages and templars. Don't those people care about anything else? There seem to be very few occassions where you can get points for being nice or mean to a companion. In Origins, you got points for various things - whenever you did something that companions liked/didn't like, agreed/didn't agree with, it wasn't mostly based on whether you were determined enough to fight or not to fight the Archdemon and how.

Take the quest with the magister's son that kidnaps and murders elven children, for example. If you take Fenris with you, he states that the man is mad, is completely aware of something not being right with him and that if you won't grant his wish to die, he will. If you do act on his advice, you don't receive any "good" or "bad" points for it, which I find strange. You did what the companion thinks is right - in Origins, you would gain approval for this. Even if very small. It's not that I'm constantly fishing for points. But I don't really like the idea of building a friendship or rivalry mostly on what I think about templars or mages. It feels rather shallow.

Modifié par Vanilka of the Sword Coast, 19 août 2012 - 09:48 .

[Nashimura]

I could not finish ME3 with my other Shepards after that ending, i like the fix and may go back at some point though.

[Renmiri1]

Nashimura wrote...

I could not finish ME3 with my other Shepards after that ending, i like the fix and may go back at some point though.

Wrong forum / thread ? 

[cJohnOne]

I'd post more in the thread if I knew what it was about. I'm a little confused on the issue.

Back to completion rates. Why do you think DAO had a low one. If DA2 is easier to get into is that a step in the right direction? Why wasn't the DA2 completion rate higher if it was easier?

[Corto81]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

• Companion customization being reduced to null was done to promote unique looks for each character.  That DA3 is expanding upon this premise by reintroducing some customization will, I think, be an improvement.  But it's something they wanted to do and there's something to be gained from it.  Something plenty of folks don't care about per se, but that's not the point.

Not really sure what was to be gained from reducing customization of characters in an RPG.
This isn't a shooter or action.-adventure, it's an RPG. Or is supposed to be.
Maximum possible customization is one of its core elements.

• I don't understand how any observant, critically thinking person can say that DA2's characters are suddenly more shallow or less likable than any in BioWare's history.  Personally I view this as a presentation problem.  You had to get to know them differently, and couldn't interrogate them at will and at length any time you wanted.  BioWare's writers have conceded that front-loading the dialogue more might have fixed this.  I'm guessing this is also why Carth is considered to have been "whiny" and a guy who "whines" near constantly about dead Duncan (even having to be reminded of whatever personal tragedy went down in your origin) is never criticized for it.  Whereas DA2 characters are constantly asking Hawke how much being forced out of Ferelden meant to them... hmm.....

I'm not sure how it's even comparable.
In DA:O you had the option to learn about your friends, learn about them and their background, learn about the world from them.
Alistair is good enough to be a protagonist by himself. His and Leliana "hardening" are fantastically done.
Morrigan's a bit cliche, but still deep and complicated.
Outside of Zevran, no character is "shallow" IMO.

DA2?
Fenris is one-dimensional emo elf, I hate mages, etc.
Anders is... Awful. In every way.
Merrill is dumb and naive to the point of absurdity.
Isabela was apparently written by a horny 14-year old boy.
etc.
Aveline was well done, IMO, and Varric. That's about it.
But more to the point, it's not only how they were written, it's how it was done.
They only spole to you when they needed something, the whole thing makes an old-school RPGer feel very detached from the NPCs.

• The whole of "your choices didn't matter" arguments simply infuriate me.  Almost all of them are inevitably begging for epilogue cards to tell them which plot flags they set.  Give me a break.  The rest define "choices that matter" as stuff like... choosing the King of Orzammar.  A decision you make whose consequences you never get to experience and serve only to ensure that future content won't be able to support both choices without glossing over the difference.  See, there are arguments about some of these things.  Continuing on...

This has got to be a joke.
In DA:O, you get to choose who rules Ferelden. It depends on YOU.
You get to choose what happens to Elves and Wereloves, who rules Orzammar, what happens to Redcliffe, etc.
And the companions react and have a will of their own... Leliana facing you depending on what you do with the Urn, Wynne in mage tower etc.
You shape how the world looks like and what happens to its people.
Gameplay-wise its not changing much, but that was never the point.
Your actions reflect on the world and what happens to it. That's the point. Not gameplay changes.
In DA2? Help or don't help Anders, same thing happens.
Help or don't help mage or templars, same thing happens, etcetcetc.

• Whether or not the protagonist is "shallow and unlikable" or even "to most" is up for debate.  Personally I think with protagonists you get what you put into them.  As someone who hates silent protagonists (in games where everyone else is voiced), I never felt like the Warden was much of a character and as such was never attached to what came off to me as a shell.  Others have a hard time getting into the role when there's a voice, and likewise can't get into the character. However, if Hawke was shallow and unlikable, that's your fault.  It's also my fault that the Warden was shallow and emotionless.  We get what we put into them, that we're more able to put something into a protagonist when they're presented a certain way is a different argument.  

How can a fully customizable character (DA:O) feel less your own than a semi-customizable one?
I'm harldy the only one who said they found Hawke bland, uninteresting or bleak.

• Ridiculous story twists?  Such as?  I'm guessing this will be another case of YMMV.  Or giving other games with equally ridiculous story twists a pass because you bought-in to them and not DA2.

Seriously?
Orsino, for example? lolwut
The whole story was basically non-existant in Act 1, looked promising in Act2, and had nothing to do with Act2 in the dreaded Act 3.
Act 3 was awful.
Villans you didn't know or care about, forced situations, your choices didn't matter etc.

• HOWEVER
• THERE IS LITERALLY NO PRO-ARGUMENT FOR RECYCLED AREAS AND WAVES-FALLING-FROM-THE-SKY.  NOBODY LIKED IT.  NOT EVEN BIOWARE.  THERE IS NO ARGUING ABOUT IT.  YET PEOPLE LIST IT AS SOMETHING ANYONE WHO LIKED DA2 MUST HAVE PREFERRED.  NO.  IT'S IN THE GAME BECAUSE IT WAS MADE IN TEN FREAKING MONTHS.

I never said someone who liked DA2 must've liked the waves or recylced maps.
But if BW didn't like it, why did they make it?
Resources? Thinking it could pass by the dumb customers? I don't care, it was lazy and unacceptable.

...

And that's without even going into how stripped of lore and "RPG stuff" DA2 was.
DA:O had codexes, every item was uniqe in its own way, you had to read your journal for many a quest to get it done, riddles and dungeons that make RPG an RPG...

DA2? You click a quest, port somewhere, kill stuff, go back and pick up reward.
No quests took longer than 15 minues.
Hell, Deep Roads expedition took about.... 10?

...

Judging by the critics and the media and sales, DA2 was NOT a success among the non-RPG crowd.
And it was definitely NOT a success among the RPG crowd.

In a world where this RPG audience (that BW grew big on) has already played BG series, PS:T, Witcher 2, DA:O, ES, Dark Souls... All deep, quality RPGs with tons of artistic integrity, why the hell would they settle for something like DA2?

Modifié par Corto81, 20 août 2012 - 08:33 .

[Yrkoon]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

I don't understand how any observant, critically thinking person can say that DA2's characters are suddenly more shallow or less likable than any in BioWare's history.  Personally I view this as a presentation problem.  You had to get to know them differently, and couldn't interrogate them at will and at length any time you wanted.  BioWare's writers have conceded that front-loading the dialogue more might have fixed this.  

I agree with this.  DA2's characters weren't any less interesting or likeable than DA:Os.  But there was indeed a presentation problem -  A big one.    You couldn't talk to them for God sakes except for once or twice per chapter,   which for  the normal player (read: people who aren't sitting down and analysing, like we are)  this  would probably make these characters come across as shallow, unrelatable, and not very deep... even though they actually were nothing of the sort.  They all had rich back stories and defined motivations  that you did learn about as you played the game to conclusion.

But that said, I don't see how front-loading  their dialogue would solve the problem, as it's not a natural way to get to know someone.  When was the last time you met someone at work or school and they said:  "Hi, I'm Dave.  We're gonna be  close friends.  But we'll never be able to chit-chat at will, so let me tell you my life story now, before we hang out for 10 years."

No, there's only ONE solution:  bring back  the player's ability to naturally engage in dialogue with his/her companions like they could in Origins.  NPCs/Companions are the window to the game's world.  In a game that lives and dies by its story (like all bioware games), that's the LAST corner that should ever be cut.

Modifié par Yrkoon, 20 août 2012 - 12:09 .

[StElmo]

RinpocheSchnozberry wrote...

www.eurogamer.net/articles/2012-08-13-less-players-completed-mass-effect-3-than-finished-mass-effect-2

:lol:

The case against games like DAO?  Shut.  DA2 carved out the boring parts, and kept the fun parts.  People don't walk away from enjoyable experiences.  DA2 was more enjoyable than DAO for most people. 

There is a lot to love in DA2, playing it now. I hear there is a lot of corner cutting with the story and the locations tho, so that will be poop/. But then, I experienced ME3's ending, so I'm prepared

[Renmiri1]

StElmo wrote...

RinpocheSchnozberry wrote...

www.eurogamer.net/articles/2012-08-13-less-players-completed-mass-effect-3-than-finished-mass-effect-2

:lol:

The case against games like DAO?  Shut.  DA2 carved out the boring parts, and kept the fun parts.  People don't walk away from enjoyable experiences.  DA2 was more enjoyable than DAO for most people. 

There is a lot to love in DA2, playing it now. I hear there is a lot of corner cutting with the story and the locations tho, so that will be poop/. But then, I experienced ME3's ending, so I'm prepared

Oh nothing in DA2 is as  as the ME3 fiasco!

I think some people are rediscovering DA2. I certainly am ! It is different if you go into the game expecting heaven and DAO++ and get the corner cutting personal story centered DA2. You get dissapointed, how could you not ? But if you go into DA2 expecting a fiasco like ME3 or not expecting anything, then you get pleasantly surprised. The game has is shortcomings but story, combat and romance are great 

[coles4971]

Having low expectations does not then make a game good.

[Realmzmaster]

coles4971 wrote...

Having low expectations does not then make a game good.

I prefer to go in with no expectations, but that is not the case for everyone. I judge each game on its own and not by comparison. This is why if you look at my ratings I rate BG1 higher than BG2 even though most gamers have BG2 rated higher than BG1.

Having no expectations allows me to judge each game on its merits, but YMMV.

[StElmo]

Renmiri1 wrote...

StElmo wrote...

RinpocheSchnozberry wrote...

www.eurogamer.net/articles/2012-08-13-less-players-completed-mass-effect-3-than-finished-mass-effect-2

:lol:

The case against games like DAO?  Shut.  DA2 carved out the boring parts, and kept the fun parts.  People don't walk away from enjoyable experiences.  DA2 was more enjoyable than DAO for most people. 

There is a lot to love in DA2, playing it now. I hear there is a lot of corner cutting with the story and the locations tho, so that will be poop/. But then, I experienced ME3's ending, so I'm prepared

Oh nothing in DA2 is as  as the ME3 fiasco!

I think some people are rediscovering DA2. I certainly am ! It is different if you go into the game expecting heaven and DAO++ and get the corner cutting personal story centered DA2. You get dissapointed, how could you not ? But if you go into DA2 expecting a fiasco like ME3 or not expecting anything, then you get pleasantly surprised. The game has is shortcomings but story, combat and romance are great 

Thank christ, I actually PM'd a dragon age developer, I really feel sorry for them, they are gonna be hit hard by the disaster of ME3's third act. The thing about DA is you can still see some BioWare charm there, even if it is stripped back. You can feel the "heart" even if it's a pretty mediocre game on the whole.

ME3 felt like there was no "heart".

Also, the DA developers seems really intent on learning fromt heir mistakes, and although they have the EA overlords, I think they will strike a good medium this time and is the only reason I am willing to consider buying the game because ME3 really really killed BioWare's reputation with me. Mostly because of the PR handling and attitude they gave fans (sure, some fans were jerks, but no need to treat everyone like jerks because of a few bastards).