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DA2 held more peoples interest than DAO did.


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#26
hoorayforicecream

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deuce985 wrote...

Flawed statistics are flawed.

How do we know the number behind the percentage? 50% completion doesn't necessarily mean a higher number of players completed the game over 40%...

10% less players might be completing it because of mechanics like broader appeal to casual gamers. Just too many variables behind this to take it credible. It's one reason I ignore surveys because they never give you all the details on how the survey was performed.


Their data isn't from surveys. Bioware pulls data automatically from origin accounts with the "send data to bioware" checkmark in the options screen turned on (by default). Completion rate is number of accounts who have completed the game at least once divided by total number of accounts created to play the game. The result is typically several million data points, which is very precise when performing statistical analysis.

#27
Melca36

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I played both games and finished them all.

The people who NEVER finished Origins are lazy gamers who basically want EVERYTHING handed to them.

#28
They call me a SpaceCowboy

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It's all pretty meaningless in determining which game was more popular anyway. too many other factors. DAO vets maybe had more of an incentive to play DA2 to the end. DA2 was less than half as long. Maybe people who didn't finish DAO still put in more time that da2 people who finished the game, and so on.

#29
Melca36

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I predict this thread will get locked

The fact remains that DA:O still sold more than DA:2

DA:2 was a GOOD game but it could have been an outstanding game had it NOT been rushed.

and DA:3 will hopefully take the best from BOTH games and it will become the BEST of the 3.

#30
Fast Jimmy

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RinpocheSchnozberry wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...

I have seen the analysis of the DA:O 'unfinished playthrough' dilemma and found that the vast majority of these 'incomplete' playthroughs ended right at Ostagar. Now... why in the world would they end there? Could it be because that's where the origin beginning intro sequences ended? 


I'll need to see a link, good buddy!

Your original link was from a gaming website that only linked to another gaming website, which, in turn, had no source link it. The panel's website does state that Melo did speak there this week, but how he framed these results are not discussed anywhere, let alone actual numbers in how it was calculated. So my 'I heard it from a dev' matches your 'I heard it from a dev.'

EA is atrocious at doing practical statistical analytics that have ever been good at predicting gamers likes and dislikes, let alone reflect accurate data. The second I want a marketing exec at EA telling me what kinds of games are good is the day I'll be wearing a toe tag and be sleeping six feet under. 

Bah. To act like this conversation has any validity at all is pointless. 

#31
Fast Jimmy

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Cursed phone.

A post so nice, I clicked it twice!

Modifié par Fast Jimmy, 13 août 2012 - 11:25 .


#32
Sylvius the Mad

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RinpocheSchnozberry wrote...

www.eurogamer.net/articles/2012-08-13-less-players-completed-mass-effect-3-than-finished-mass-effect-2

:lol::lol::lol:

The case against games like DAO?  Shut.  DA2 carved out the boring parts, and kept the fun parts.  People don't walk away from enjoyable experiences.  DA2 was more enjoyable than DAO for most people. 

Holy incomplete picture, Batman.

How many times, on average, did a player start DAO?  I'd bet that's quite a bit higher than DA2.  DA2 was also a significantly shorter game, and thus easier to finish.

Why do you think this metric is at all meaningful?

#33
Sylvius the Mad

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Had I not finished DAO (and to date, I've still only finished it once), I would still count it as a superior game.

#34
Guest_EntropicAngel_*

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 Gosh, why do these people even BUY games if they aren't completing them...

#35
Vaeliorin

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Of course, you could also make the argument that the only reason people finished DA2 was because they couldn't believe it was that bad, and kept hoping for it to get better...

Honestly, I think a more useful metric would be total number of completions/person. I finished DA 8 times. DA2 I've only finished twice. I started a 3rd playthrough, but got annoyed when I couldn't play a pro-Templar Hawke who still loved her sister, so I never bothered to finish it.

#36
Korusus

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RinpocheSchnozberry wrote...

www.eurogamer.net/articles/2012-08-13-less-players-completed-mass-effect-3-than-finished-mass-effect-2

:lol::lol::lol:

The case against games like DAO?  Shut.  DA2 carved out the boring parts, and kept the fun parts.  People don't walk away from enjoyable experiences.  DA2 was more enjoyable than DAO for most people. 


Why can't you just be honest and say that neither of those statistics are very flattering?  You do know that these metrics that BioWare leans so heavily on are why we got a mediocre product in DA2 in the first place right?  And you're...defending mediocrity?  Solid plan.  I can't wait to see what throw-away games BioWare continues to develop based on their recent track record.  Great.  Everyone wins here....wait reverse that, everyone loses.

#37
Fast Jimmy

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EntropicAngel wrote...

 Gosh, why do these people even BUY games if they aren't completing them...


To be fair, who says they are completing them? I rent most of my games now. I rented KoA and did not have the inclination to even attempt a complete playthrough, it was so shallow and superficial. On the other hand, I have spent 80+ hours on Fallout New Vegas and have yet to beat it.

Which only further solidifies the idiocy of the argument. Metrics like completion are inaccurate and do not reflect how a person feels about a game. 

As lopsided as it can be, I find metacritic, even with its scoring bombs, to be the most accurate tool of game quality in an inaccurate world.

#38
Vaeliorin

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EntropicAngel wrote...
Gosh, why do these people even BUY games if they aren't completing them...

I've got a lot of games that I've never finished.  Newer ones tend to be sequels that just failed to hold my interest (Drakensang 2 I just never managed to get into, despite liking the first one), or games that started out fun, but failed to stay fun (Reckoning is an example of this...I loved the demo, so I bought it, and the game was good for a while, but the difficulty curve was so broken [the game because way too easy even without trying to min/max] that it just wasn't fun to play anymore.)

I've got older games that I've never finished because I simply couldn't.  I've started Wizardry 7, for example, dozens of times, but I've never managed to finish it because it's just so freaking hard.  It is, however, one of my favorite games of all time.

Heck, I've even got games that I bought and haven't played yet, mostly because I picked them up on a Steam sale and haven't gotten around to them.

Modifié par Vaeliorin, 13 août 2012 - 11:38 .


#39
Mr Fixit

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EntropicAngel wrote...

 Gosh, why do these people even BUY games if they aren't completing them...


Because journey is more important than destination? For some, at least?

#40
Fast Jimmy

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hoorayforicecream wrote...

deuce985 wrote...

Flawed statistics are flawed.

How do we know the number behind the percentage? 50% completion doesn't necessarily mean a higher number of players completed the game over 40%...

10% less players might be completing it because of mechanics like broader appeal to casual gamers. Just too many variables behind this to take it credible. It's one reason I ignore surveys because they never give you all the details on how the survey was performed.


Their data isn't from surveys. Bioware pulls data automatically from origin accounts with the "send data to bioware" checkmark in the options screen turned on (by default). Completion rate is number of accounts who have completed the game at least once divided by total number of accounts created to play the game. The result is typically several million data points, which is very precise when performing statistical analysis.


The issue is not the quality of the data (it rarely is at the corporate level, an undergrad Statistics class can ensure that). It is in the filter which the data is viewed and the interpretations people pull from it that Statistics are made wholly inaccurate. 

To put this in context (which the OP did not do) this was a game design symposium where Fernando Melo, a Director of Online Development (read: the guy whose job revolves around selling DLC) was giving advice on how to best incorporate DLC into other developer's product roll out.

Melo was showing how, even with low completion rates, they were able to sell X amounts of DLC, thus proving his own success. It certainly behooved him to make it seem like the people who bought the original product disliked it, but then by his marketing and development genius, he was able to have all of these DLC downloads.

I'm sure his analysis also skipped over the fact that certain DLC were free or came with the shipped game. After all, that would make him look bad.

Always look at the person who is presenting data. I'm not just talking about "Bioware", I mean LITERALLY - the PERSON presenting the data. Melo made himself look better by making all of Bioware's core games look like dirt and gamers as uninterested, fickle, money sacks. And since he did it so well, EA is now able to sell their Day One DLC model to all sorts of other developers who want to be as successful as the Great and Mighty Bioware.

Its a shell game. They aren't real statistics, they are marketing statistics. And when you are being marketed to, you need to know the product they are trying to sell. Melo's product here? Base games, even for AAA developers, aren't interesting to gamers. So you need to have reasons to make them buy DLC - like crucial plot points, characters that input a lot to the story but can only be bought with Microsoft Points and locked content on the original disc to sell you later at a premium price.

Modifié par Fast Jimmy, 13 août 2012 - 11:37 .


#41
Arch1eviathan

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I certainly liked it more than Origins. The gameplay was better as werre the characters and the tone of the game.

#42
Guest_EntropicAngel_*

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Fast Jimmy wrote...

To be fair, who says they are completing them? I rent most of my games now. I rented KoA and did not have the inclination to even attempt a complete playthrough, it was so shallow and superficial. On the other hand, I have spent 80+ hours on Fallout New Vegas and have yet to beat it.

Which only further solidifies the idiocy of the argument. Metrics like completion are inaccurate and do not reflect how a person feels about a game. 

As lopsided as it can be, I find metacritic, even with its scoring bombs, to be the most accurate tool of game quality in an inaccurate world.


You really can't compare sandbox games, because they aren't based on story, they're based on the world.

#43
LadyJaneGrey

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*Completely ignores the DA information*

Reading the article, I don't see that ME2 and ME3 completion rates are both using numbers from the five month mark. I know many people who start a game, get distracted by a new shiny title, then return later to finish.

It's interesting, but not useful in a "which-is-better-I-have-statistical-proof" fight. Not that it won't be used that way...

#44
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RinpocheSchnozberry wrote...

www.eurogamer.net/articles/2012-08-13-less-players-completed-mass-effect-3-than-finished-mass-effect-2

:lol::lol::lol:

The case against games like DAO?  Shut.  DA2 carved out the boring parts, and kept the fun parts.  People don't walk away from enjoyable experiences.  DA2 was more enjoyable than DAO for most people. 


Do you wanna back that up with actual proof that people enjoyed DA2 more, or are you just gonna keep talking out of your ass? My bets are on the latter.

Modifié par greengoron89, 13 août 2012 - 11:47 .


#45
Fast Jimmy

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EntropicAngel wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...

To be fair, who says they are completing them? I rent most of my games now. I rented KoA and did not have the inclination to even attempt a complete playthrough, it was so shallow and superficial. On the other hand, I have spent 80+ hours on Fallout New Vegas and have yet to beat it.

Which only further solidifies the idiocy of the argument. Metrics like completion are inaccurate and do not reflect how a person feels about a game. 

As lopsided as it can be, I find metacritic, even with its scoring bombs, to be the most accurate tool of game quality in an inaccurate world.


You really can't compare sandbox games, because they aren't based on story, they're based on the world.


I could spend 80+ hours on a DA:O playthrough and still not beat it. Especially with all the DLC.

But it was not my intention to compare two sandbox games to a Bioware game. I simply gave two games I had not completed. My reasons for doing so are vastly different. My level of enjoyment is miles apart. But if you were to lump me into the category of "guy who hated FO:NV so much he never even beat it!" then that would be a gross falacy. Which only proves the point that these metrics serve no purpose.

#46
C9316

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DA2 was much shorter, and therefore easier to finish. Combine that with the fact that less people bought DA2 I fail to see how this proves DA2 somehow held more people's interest.

Image IPB

#47
The Hierophant

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EntropicAngel wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...

To be fair, who says they are completing them? I rent most of my games now. I rented KoA and did not have the inclination to even attempt a complete playthrough, it was so shallow and superficial. On the other hand, I have spent 80+ hours on Fallout New Vegas and have yet to beat it.

Which only further solidifies the idiocy of the argument. Metrics like completion are inaccurate and do not reflect how a person feels about a game. 

As lopsided as it can be, I find metacritic, even with its scoring bombs, to be the most accurate tool of game quality in an inaccurate world.


You really can't compare sandbox games, because they aren't based on story, they're based on the world.

I take it you never played Fallout New Vegas before?

Modifié par The Hierophant, 13 août 2012 - 11:51 .


#48
Mr Fixit

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EntropicAngel wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...

To be fair, who says they are completing them? I rent most of my games now. I rented KoA and did not have the inclination to even attempt a complete playthrough, it was so shallow and superficial. On the other hand, I have spent 80+ hours on Fallout New Vegas and have yet to beat it.

Which only further solidifies the idiocy of the argument. Metrics like completion are inaccurate and do not reflect how a person feels about a game. 

As lopsided as it can be, I find metacritic, even with its scoring bombs, to be the most accurate tool of game quality in an inaccurate world.


You really can't compare sandbox games, because they aren't based on story, they're based on the world.


To be precise, what they sell is *experiencing* the world. Thus, journey over destination. But that doesn't prevent us from experiencing story- or character-based games in a similar way, by assigning a higher value to the way a story unfolds, or to the character interactions, than to the conclusion.

#49
Guest_EntropicAngel_*

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Fast Jimmy wrote...

I could spend 80+ hours on a DA:O playthrough and still not beat it. Especially with all the DLC.

But it was not my intention to compare two sandbox games to a Bioware game. I simply gave two games I had not completed. My reasons for doing so are vastly different. My level of enjoyment is miles apart. But if you were to lump me into the category of "guy who hated FO:NV so much he never even beat it!" then that would be a gross falacy. Which only proves the point that these metrics serve no purpose.


Same here, but the point is, you would eventually beat it. Not necessarily so with sandbox.

And I get your point.

#50
Guest_EntropicAngel_*

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The Hierophant wrote...

I take it you never played Fallout New Vegas before?


It's a sandbox game. As enthralling as the story may be, if the story was the focus it wouldn't be sandbox.