171 réponses à ce sujet

[The Hierophant]

^ Interesting i never tried Cullen's hairstyle for a Rivaini Hawke, i usually go bald.

[Emzamination]

FitScotGaymer wrote... Ferelden (a COUNTRY not a CONTINENT) is a country based partly on
medieval ENGLAND. Thedas THE CONTINENT is based upon a pseudo medieval
European continent, which would be, and is made up of peoples that are
akin to caucasians and latin peoples.

Thedas is a European-esque continent

Maybe I'm going senile but I see no where in your post where
you specify ferelden, my statement stands. Oh and Ferelden is not based on England.Really? I didn't know dwarves, elves and Ash skinned ox men were akin to any of those people, yet somehow they exist in our thedas, wonders of wonders.

The darkest people seem to be the Rivaini, which are a race of people
which appear to be akin to the Greeks and Turk, both very dark skinned
people that are patently NOT black folk

The darkest the skin colour slider went prior to modding was sallow
skinned like someone from Greece, or Israel, or Egypt. Ya know
Latin/Arabic?

I don't see you singling out greeks and turks, alone there, My statement stands.I find it Amusing That you're using a color slider to Pre-determine the existance of races. F.Y.I Da3 is being completed on a new engine, with concept art depicting a woman of colour.Your point was moot before and even more so now.

  As I said the continent of Thedas is a Europe like continent, and the
people therein living are European like peoples. The climate and
enviroment of such a continent would NOT give rise to an exceedingly
dark skinned people akin to our world Africans.

There is nothing
ignorant about that. It is simply an acknowledgement of fact. That fact
being it was the climate/environment that created all the various little
variations of "race" in humanity in our world over the millenia. And as
near as we can tell it absolutely works the same in "humanity" in the
world of Thedas.

Here's the thing, Thedas is Loosely based on Europe in the way of mannerisms and culture, not race.You talk of climate and environment? There are Grey skinned giants with horns living in the jungles of thedas, there are no jungles in Europe.Europe is above the equator where jungles are found.The only thing you'll find replicated in thedas is real world racial culture.You should check your facts and the Ignorance stands.

As I said I am not against black people being represented in game, or
indeed any other race, as long as there is an adequate lore reason for
them to pop up in the pseudo-European medieval setting of Thedas. Like
the Redguards of Tamriel.
Otherwise having a random black or asiatic
NPC randomly pop up runs the risk of being both anachronistic, and
smacking of tokenism.

The Qunari say they just landed in par vollen and planted roots, refuse to speak of their real origins, you're not questioning this but Dark skinned humans start appearing and you need an explanation for their existance? *Face palm* Wow, This stuff just rolls out of your fingers? To be frank, The species in thedas are not seperated by skin pigmentation but by species and last time I checked black people were human same as any caucasian and latin person, once again, your point goes down in flames.

This isn't a Elder scrolls universe and in no way related, don't see the point of mentioning the red guards.

Being a gay guy, I get what its like to be part of a "persecuted
minority" by the "white majority". And there is nothing worse when you
read a book, or watch a play, or watch a tv program, or even play a game
and you come across a random NPC that is nothing more than a lame
stereotypical gay/black/asian/whatever that is only there just cause. So
that blacks/gays/asians/whatever can't say they weren't included, and
thus can't be offended.

Sexual prejudice and Racial Prejudice are two very different things, I'd love to school you on the obvious differences but I'll let you figure that out for yourself.

Sometimes its okay to not having to represent every single minority or
group out there in this fictional world that has been created, if it
doesn't fit the lore or setting for them to be there. At least not
without a proper in-universe reason for it.

After all, games are about escapism, and enjoyment. Not everything from the real world absolutely has to bleed over.

Wow...You just contradicted your own Argument in one sentence, I'm done, Disgusting Views, your ignorance has been Amplified

[LadyJ28]

I think the people who are saying that there aren't any "black people" in the DA lore are under that misconception that being black means you have to be dark skinned. There are a variety of skintones that comprise each race so to say that DA has included any Blacks in their lore because we haven't seen any "dark skinned" people is a little silly. I am a black person and I have a skintone that is similar to Isabela's (perhaps a shade darker). It is perhaps possible that Rivani, as we have not yet been to there, is the place in DA lore where we see more black individuals because they are described as "dark-skinned" humans, which can include tan inviduals to ebony individuals. So yeahhhhh...argument for there not being lore to support including blacks is not relevant.

Anyways back on topic...I do agree that seeing afro-textured hair would be a nice addition. Just as long its understood that curly/kinky black hair does not mean "nappy" wild hair. I would really like to see a long wavy-textured hairstyle added for the next DA. Its just nice to be able to have variety in the hairstyles.

[LadyJ28]

Emzamination I agree with all of your assessments. In a fantasy setting there is quite a bit of room for addition of certain elements. Just because we have yet to see something in a fantasy based game does not mean that it doesnt exist. For example, a BSN member wanted mermaid lore to added the game and the addition seemed plausible. We have not really been to areas that ocean based but it is quite believable that mermaids could apart of the DA lore.

[Sylvius the Mad]

syllogi wrote...

Perhaps you should go read up on the differences between racism and prejudice, if you are so interested in the subject.

Racism is a subset of prejudice.

On the hair issue, my earlier point stands that more options are good.  Moreover, I assert that more options should be made available even if those options don't meet BioWare's standards of quality.  Having a poor option is better than not having it.

[Wrathion]

Emzamination wrote...
*snipped that*

Wow...You just contradicted your own Argument in one sentence, I'm done, Disgusting Views, your ignorance has been Amplified

Thank you for doing that so I wouldn't have to. That last part was great too. OMG "Not everything from the real world has to bleed over except for the "EVERYONE IS WHITE BECAUSE FERELDAN IS EUROPE" part" 
real tears over here.

All white people is just normal fantasy just being normal changing that is either "pandering" or "bringing in real world issues" or some such nonsense.

KaidanLover wrote...
Some might give me the crazy look, but whenever I play a maleBlackHawke, Cullen's hair is pretty close to a minifro (espcially if you make it black), or at least thats how i role play it, cuz i refuse to use the fade cut with the receding hairline. no thanks Bioware. no thanks.

Uguu, Cullen hair. But that would work. I thought there was another cut that didn't have a receding hair line. RIGHT next to the bald hair. That might have been just Origins though. I'll have to go look for it.
Or maybe that's the one you're talking about :I

Sylvius the Mad wrote...
Racism is a subset of prejudice.

You use the white Isabela mod and think you can' tell people what racism is or is not? Nice going there.
And no, poor representation is not better than no representation.

Modifié par Alexandrine Delassixe, 17 août 2012 - 09:19 .

[The Hierophant]

Alexandrine Delassixe wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...
Racism is a subset of prejudice.

You use the white Isabela mod and think you can' tell people what racism is or is not? Nice going there.
And no, poor representation is not better than no representation.

I wouldn't be quick to judge or ad hominem StM or any one who uses the mod without knowing their motivation for doing so, and it shouldn't be used to negate their opinion. 

Modifié par The Hierophant, 17 août 2012 - 11:30 .

[Sylvius the Mad]

Alexandrine Delassixe wrote...

You use the white Isabela mod and think you can' tell people what racism is or is not? Nice going there.

Are you asserting that racism is not a subset of prejudice.  I find it really irritating when people get angry or take offense at my assertions but then won't even attempt to advance their own positions or explain what I've done wrong.  How do you expect people to learn if you won't teach them?

And by BioWare's own admission, the engine they used for DA2 didn't display dark skin tones well.  I thought Isabela's skin looked muddy, and I didn't like her, so I lightened her up.  Where's the harm in that?

And no, poor representation is not better than no representation.

That makes no sense at all.  You would honestly rather not have the option for some types of hair than to have those options but have them look a bit strange?

Look at the dark skintones.  Would you rather have dark skintones available in a game where they don't render well, or not have them at all?  I suspect you would prefer to have them rather than not, in all cases.

Modifié par Sylvius the Mad, 18 août 2012 - 12:12 .

[jillabender]

Sylvius the Mad wrote…

Are you asserting that racism is not a subset of prejudice.

Not to take this too far off topic, and no offense intended, but I think categorizing racism as a "subset" of prejudice is a bit simplistic. I agree that racial prejudice is a form or subset of prejudice, in that it's one kind of prejudice among many.

However, prejudice, strictly speaking, always refers to attitudes, while the term "racism," as opposed to racial prejudice, encompasses more than that. Racism can refer to systemic racism, that is, to social systems that are structured in ways that exclude or oppress groups of people.

I would argue that in the context of discussions about race, the term "prejudice," properly used, refers to attitudes that can ultimately give rise to discrimination and systemic racism. That's the definition most theorists seem to use, and I think that it's a useful definition.

So, to summarize, I think it would be more accurate to say that racial prejudice is a subset of prejudice, not racism, because I think the distinction between racial prejudice and systemic racism is worth preserving.

Modifié par jillabender, 18 août 2012 - 12:14 .

[Sylvius the Mad]

But racism is a consequence of racial prejudice. Where systems unfairly exclude groups, it is because they were designed, either implicitly or explicitly, to treat some favourably and others unfavourably. But prejudice is at the root of all it.

[jillabender]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

But racism is a consequence of racial prejudice. Where systems unfairly exclude groups, it is because they were designed, either implicitly or explicitly, to treat some favourably and others unfavourably. But prejudice is at the root of all it.

I agree – my only issue with the way you worded it before is that, in my mind, saying "racism is a consequence of racial prejudice" is a bit different from saying "racism is a subset of prejudice," and I think the former is a more useful approach. To put it another way, saying "A is caused by B" isn't quite the same thing as saying "A is a subset of B."

To me, saying "racism is a subset of prejudice" tends to reduce racism to racial prejudice, and I believe that racism encompasses more than just racially prejudiced attitudes. I consider this important because I believe that people too often focus on individual attitudes while ignoring systemic racial injustice. But I agree with most of what you just said.

Modifié par jillabender, 18 août 2012 - 12:53 .

[ScotGaymer]

@Emzamination

Look I don't want to derail the thread or cause an arguement. I apologise if I came across wrong.

You really don't seem like you are actually reading what I typed; and are instead skimming my posts and cherry picking quotes to be offended at. I will try to be clearer here.

My point was merely that Thedas is a temperate continent that is based somewhat along the lines of Europe with "races" and "cultures" in that continent based roughly along the lines of medieval Europe. And based on that framework of the existing universe the world does not seem to have the technology or the magic capable of large scale migrations that would give rise to a modern-esque multicultural multi racial society (or to give rise to a black or asian "race" within the boundaries of the continent of Thedas).
This is supported by the fact that the Dwarves keep themselves almost totally isolated from humans, Elves are either ghetto-ised or exiled, and Humanity is in a near constant state of hostility (hostility not war) with the Qunari.
Whle there are exceptions to the rule of course, there is almost no mixing of the varying races and cultures.
Thedas does not have the environment that would give rise to a black skinned, or asiatic people, or race; and thus any inclusion of any large scale community of "black" people or "asian" inspired people would require an adequate explanation.

This means that without the climate, and environment in or on the continent of Thedas (and Dragon Age is about Thedas the continent, not just the country of Ferelden) to give rise to a "black" or "asian" race then they really shouldnt be "there" on any large scale; at least not with a proper lore reason for them to be there in large numbers in the temperate European-esque continent of Thedas.
So if technology (as far as we know currently) precludes it, and if the cultural history of the continent (as we know it thus far) precludes it, and basic geographical and anthropological sciences preclude it; then it really doesn't make sense.

Which is why I said that I was pretty certain that the vanilla Dragon Age Origins and Dragon Age 2 did not allow you to play as a black or asian person. The darkest you can go is to make your warden or hawke look Rivaini which seem to be a latin/greek/turk type of people; they are patently not black.
Again, there is nothing ignorant in this statement of fact.

If people want to make their character as dark skinned as possible and roleplay as a black character or an asian character, or whatever, as some sort of traveller from a distant land then thats fine more power to them.
But the request to include more hair for "black" characters, given that black and asian races/countries do not live on Thedas (the continent, but probably do live elsewhere in the world), goes with the implied request to include a black race (and possibly more races of humans represented also) because currently you cant actually play as a black person.

Again I apologise if I wasn't being clear, or I am not being clear.

I am totally in favour of including a wider array of hair styles, and skin tones; and variations in race options. I mean black Elves anyone?

Would. Be. Awesome.

I just wouldn't want them to fling in whatever minority wherever they can just to satisfy some anachronistic need to represent real world "races" in this fictional universe, to me if they did so it would just be sheer tokenism. And that was my point.
I would want a strong, proper lore reason for the inclusion; and again for a proper lore reason I cite the Redguards fleeing Yokuda to Tamriel when Yokuda was destroyed in a natural disaster in The Elder Scrolls universe.

I apologise again if I wasn't clear.

I wasn't being ignorant or prejudice, or anything like that.

Also when I said about Ferelden being inspired by medieval England (which is true) it was because you said Thedas was based on medieval great britain; which is NOT true. Thedas is the Continent in which the entire Dragon Age franchise is based - and is inspired by and based upon medieval Europe (also completely true) with peoples and "races" along the lines of medieval european peoples and races, and Ferelden is the Country that Dragon Age Origins was set in, and was inspired by medieval England.
In short, pointing out the difference between Thedas and Ferelden.

I was not saying that in a fantasy setting they can not add whatever they please, of course they can. It just works better if theres a proper lore reason for such and such being the way it is. It applies to everything not just race.

I hope my lengthy post has cleared up any misunderstandings here. I would ask in future that you refrain from inflammatory, unwarranted accusations of ignorance and prejudice however. It doesn't contribute positively to the forum or thread.

Thanks.

Modifié par FitScotGaymer, 18 août 2012 - 12:35 .

[Emzamination]

FitScotGaymer wrote...


I hope my lengthy post has cleared up any misunderstandings here. I would ask in future that you refrain from inflammatory, unwarranted accusations of ignorance and prejudice however. It doesn't contribute positively to the forum or thread.

Thanks.

No it didn't, in fact your current post just dug yourself deeper but I don't have the stomach to keep digesting the Bile you keep churning out.You tried to use a double argument to mask something ugly, got called out on it and now you're using psuedo intellectual attempts to reword and pretty it up but you can't, it just keeps pouring out of  your keyboard like a fountain, plain as the morning Dawn.

You are discussing why black & Asian people shouldn't exist in a fantasy Universe in a thread dedicated to hair and you're scolding me on Positively contributing to the thread??? I got a real good hearty laugh out of that.I stand by all my statements and will never apologise for them.Talk about Irony, good day

Modifié par Emzamination, 18 août 2012 - 01:51 .

[jillabender]

FitScotGaymer wrote…

I am totally in favour of including a wider array of hair styles, and skin tones; and variations in race options. I mean black Elves anyone?

Would. Be. Awesome.

I just wouldn't want them to fling in whatever minority wherever they can just to satisfy some anachronistic need to represent real world "races" in this fictional universe, to me if they did so it would just be sheer tokenism. And that was my point.
I would want a strong, proper lore reason for the inclusion; and again for a proper lore reason I cite the Redguards fleeing Yokuda to Tamriel when Yokuda was destroyed in a natural disaster in The Elder Scrolls universe.

I also would like to see more options for creating racially diverse characters in the character creator for DA3.

But I disagree with the idea that having people in Thedas who have African or Asian features, for example, requires a "strong lore reason," and that the lack of such a reason would make including such characters feel "anachronistic." I also disagree that the lack of a "strong lore reason" for the inclusion of a wider variety of non-white characters would make the inclusion of such characters feel "token."

In my mind, there could be many reasons why people in Thedas might have non-white physical features, and I don't feel a strong need to know why a character looks a certain way. As someone who's interested in physical anthropology, I think it would be interesting to know more about how ethnic features in Thedas evolved over time, but I don't think that including such explanations is a requirement for including a wider variety of non-white characters.

Modifié par jillabender, 19 août 2012 - 04:16 .

[Icesong]

FitScotGaymer wrote...
Which is why I said that I was pretty certain that the vanilla Dragon Age Origins and Dragon Age 2 did not allow you to play as a black or asian person. The darkest you can go is to make your warden or hawke look Rivaini which seem to be a latin/greek/turk type of people; they are patently not black.

Again, there is nothing ignorant in this statement of fact.

Blacker than many black people but not black. And clearly this is Marilyn Monroe.

jillabender wrote...

EntropicAngel wrote…

I am totally in favour of including a wider array of hair styles, and skin tones; and variations in race options. I mean black Elves anyone?

Would. Be. Awesome.

I just wouldn't want them to fling in whatever minority wherever they can just to satisfy some anachronistic need to represent real world "races" in this fictional universe, to me if they did so it would just be sheer tokenism. And that was my point. I would want a strong, proper lore reason for the inclusion; and again for a proper lore reason I cite the Redguards fleeing Yokuda to Tamriel when Yokuda was destroyed in a natural disaster in The Elder Scrolls universe.

In my mind, there could be many reasons why people in Thedas might have such physical features, and I don't feel a strong need to know the reason why a character looks a certain way. As someone who's interested in
physical anthropology, I think it would be interesting to know more about how ethnic features in Thedas evolved over time, but I don't think that including such explanations is a requirement for including a wider variety of non-white characters.

Exactly my point of view. And for the record, the Redguard backstory and Yokuda wasn't fully developed when Daggerfall was made yet they were part of Tamriel anyway.

Modifié par Icesong, 18 août 2012 - 02:54 .

[Wrathion]

The Hierophant wrote...


I wouldn't be quick to judge or ad hominem StM or any one who uses the mod without knowing their motivation for doing so, and it shouldn't be used to negate their opinion. 

The persons motivation for making the damned thing was because she didn't like darkies in her game. You can't convince me that anyone that uses it in their game doesn't use it for the same reason.

[The Hierophant]

Alexandrine Delassixe wrote...

The Hierophant wrote...


I wouldn't be quick to judge or ad hominem StM or any one who uses the mod without knowing their motivation for doing so, and it shouldn't be used to negate their opinion. 

The persons motivation for making the damned thing was because she didn't like darkies in her game. You can't convince me that anyone that uses it in their game doesn't use it for the same reason.

For real, i thought it was to emulate the trailer isabela?

Modifié par The Hierophant, 18 août 2012 - 03:45 .

[Wrathion]

[quote]The Hierophant wrote...
For real, i thought it was to emulate the trailer isabela?
[/quote]

Trailer Isabela , while an admitted "mistake"(a mistake they've made several times including the first cover of the Silent Grove series) has black hair and dark brown/black eyes. She wasn't trying to make trailer Isabela.
Nope creator thought Isabela was "too dark". So Milky white, Blonde, blue-eyed Isabela pops right out of her racist ass. You should go and read the comments on that mod they are all incredibly disheartening. Against my better judgement I went read them when it first came out, made me cry for days. [/quote]

Hey, Sylvius. Maybe this is on the best place to have conversation like this...If you're up for it PM, if not well it's not going to happen. I tend to be quote-happy. QUOTES QUOTES EVERYWHERE. QUOTES FOR EVERYONE


 

Modifié par Alexandrine Delassixe, 18 août 2012 - 03:59 .

[The Hierophant]

Alexandrine Delassixe wrote...

The Hierophant wrote...
For real, i thought it was to emulate the trailer isabela?

Trailer Isabela , while an admitted "mistake"(a mistake they've made several times including the first cover of the Silent Grove series) has black hair and dark brown/black eyes. She wasn't trying to make trailer Isabela.
Nope creator thought Isabela was "too dark". So Milky white, Blonde, blue-eyed Isabela pops right out of her racist ass. You should go and read the comments on that mod they are all incredibly disheartening. Against my better judgement I went read them when it first came out, made me cry for days.

Wth i seriously wish i didn't read the comments for that mod. D@mn the comments were depressing.

Modifié par The Hierophant, 18 août 2012 - 04:26 .

[Wrathion]

The Hierophant wrote...

Wth i seriously wish i didn't read the comments for that mod. D@mn the comments were depressing.

Okay, i'm sorry. Maybe I shouldn't have told you to go and read it XD 
But you see what i'm saying? There is no good reason for using that mod none. And even if there were, after reading those comments would you believe those people did it for those reasons?
You use the white Isabela mod, you defend the white Isabela mod and you don't think that it's racist. But you think you can tell others what racism actually is? Nope.

Modifié par Alexandrine Delassixe, 18 août 2012 - 04:52 .

[PsychoBlonde]

LadyJ28 wrote...
 It is perhaps possible that Rivani, as we have not yet been to there, is the place in DA lore where we see more black individuals because they are described as "dark-skinned" humans, which can include tan inviduals to ebony individuals. So yeahhhhh...argument for there not being lore to support including blacks is not relevant. 

David Gaider mentioned that the primary reason true ebony skin tones aren't present is that they look HORRIBLE with the texture rendering they were using with the DA/DA2 engine.  I'm hoping this will improve, as I would really like to be able to experiment with a variety of racial characteristics, if only because some of the Hideous Armor of Hideousness sometimes looks a lot better on somebody who isn't White as the Driven Snow or Formerly White With a Load of Fake Tan.

[brushyourteeth]

I want to have hair like Scary Spice in DAIII:

http://t3.gstatic.co...mxPaQ-Bpd_5XuBZ


Also, Fog Warriors should be black. FACT*.


*not actual fact, just user's strong opinion

[Sylvius the Mad]

Alexandrine Delassixe wrote...

Trailer Isabela , while an admitted "mistake"(a mistake they've made several times including the first cover of the Silent Grove series) has black hair and dark brown/black eyes. She wasn't trying to make trailer Isabela.
Nope creator thought Isabela was "too dark". So Milky white, Blonde, blue-eyed Isabela pops right out of her racist ass.

My Isabela wasn't blonde.  She had dark hair, and green eyes.  If I recall correctly, the mod was labelled "Celtic Isabela".

It suited her voice, I thought.

Hey, Sylvius. Maybe this is on the best place to have conversation like this...If you're up for it PM, if not well it's not going to happen. I tend to be quote-happy.

I'm up for PMs.

Modifié par Sylvius the Mad, 18 août 2012 - 07:06 .

[Sylvius the Mad]

jillabender wrote...

I agree – my only issue with the way you worded it before is that, in my mind, saying "racism is a consequence of racial prejudice" is a bit different from saying "racism is a subset of prejudice," and I think the former is a more useful approach. To put it another way, saying "A is caused by B" isn't quite the same thing as saying "A is a subset of B."

To me, saying "racism is a subset of prejudice" tends to reduce racism to racial prejudice, and I believe that racism encompasses more than just racially prejudiced attitudes. I consider this important because I believe that people too often focus on individual attitudes while ignoring systemic racial injustice. But I agree with most of what you just said.

If racism is bad, it's bad for some reason.  Badness isn't the sort of characteristic that can arise on its own.  If it were, then we could have two things that were identical in every way but one, and that one was that one thing was bad and the other was not.

So, we've established that, if racism is bad, it's bad for some reason.  What is that reason?  I posit that the reason racism is bad is because it is a manifestation of prejudice.

Therefore, an accusation of prejudice is relevantly similar to an accusation of racism, which is how this whole conversation got started.  An accusation of prejudice was levelled, I equated that to an accusation of racism, and then a bunch of people bit my head off.  But as I've just shown, my conflation of those two things made perfect sense.

If I make any claim here on this forum, chances are I've thought it through quite a bit.