171 réponses à ce sujet

[Icesong]

It already fits into the lore; it already is lore.

[rapscallioness]

More curly hairstyle options? Yes, please.

Tight curls; Loose curls; Cornrows; Afros; Dreads.

Please.

[Wrathion]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Alexandrine Delassixe wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

I ask this question because I don't know the answer:

Is there a character in either Dragon Age game with obviously non-caucasian features?

Are you joking? You went through both games and thought everyone was white? Torn between lauging and crying.

Once again, you're incorrectly assuming an excluded middle.  And worse, even if there were an excluded midle, that still wouldn't support your conclusion, as there can exist non-white people with caucasian features.

I didn't note everyone's facial features.  Can you point to a character with non-caucasian features?  As I said, I ask because I don't know.  That is not equivalent to claiming I believe the opposite.

Once again, your logic has been very poor on this issue.

The word caucasian. And since there are no features that are exclusively white your question makes no sense. 
You don't know because you refuse to pay attention. If you need some quick proof that poc actually exist in Thedas i'm not going to give it to you. 

Fisto The Sexbot wrote...

You really don't know what caucasian means, do you? 

You obviously don't. Caucasian and white are not interchangable. He meant white.

And you are obviously trolling considering the last few pages. I'm not about that life, sir.

Modifié par Alexandrine Delassixe, 20 août 2012 - 07:44 .

[saMoorai]

I support this.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Alexandrine Delassixe wrote...

The word caucasian. And since there are no features that are exclusively white your question makes no sense.

You have that backward.  My question would make no sense if there were no features are exclusively non-caucasian.

You don't know because you refuse to pay attention. If you need some quick proof that poc actually exist in Thedas i'm not going to give it to you.

I do not care what colour they were.

You obviously don't. Caucasian and white are not interchangable. He meant white.

And how do you know what I meant?  Can you read my mind?

I meant caucasian.  Tamils are clearly not white, but I also can't point to any obviously non-caucasian features common to them.

Different ethnicities have different ranges of common features.  This is why Japanese people are often distinguishable from Han Chinese.  Surely this isn't news to you.

[Cerah]

Figured if I really posted anything to the debate, I would be beating a dead horse - but if anyone wants to use this, for whatever you want to debate, feel free.
I know the Codex can be interpretted a few different ways, though. -shrugs-

I think limiting all of Thedas to just Europe, while increadiably varied in it's own right, is just a pretty poor moves - and I hope the writers keep suprising us with new and interesting lore and variation in the DA universe.

Figured I'd post these pictures for the sake of the debate, since everyone seems to only use Isabela and Duncan. [smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/whistling.png[/smilie]




 
(There is also Janara, but I removed her pic because I figured since she comes from DA Legends, probably not the best thing since I... believe it's not really a canon character? I don't know.)

Also, here is Elora. Techically she is an elf, but I digress.


I found Liselle to be a rather unique looking Orlesian, too - I thought her face looks really soft, and with her almond eyes, she could easily pass as being Asian in the DA world imo.




Also, Codex time:
"Driven across the Frostbacks in ancient times, the Alamarri tribesmen split into three groups: One settled the Ferelden Valley, one was pushed into the Korcari Wilds, and the last returned to the mountains. Modern Fereldans bear little resemblance to their Alamarri ancestors, and the Chasind remember few of their traditions, but the Avvars have changed little throughout the ages. [...] ---From Ferelden: Folklore and History, by Sister Petrine, Chantry scholar."

Still not totally sure how the debate all started from a suggestion of new hairstyles though.
Which I want, very much so.
Along with better skintones, because the darker skintones in Origins and II looked pretty blech to me most of the time.

edit --
Okay, figured I'd pop back on when I wasn't quite so tired. These aren't afros, but I'd still love to see some dreadlocks in DA's character creator, and here is some lovely dreads.

Modifié par Cerah, 21 août 2012 - 02:36 .

[Sylvius the Mad]

Cerah wrote...

Figured I'd post these pictures for the sake of the debate, since everyone seems to only use Isabela and Duncan. [smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/whistling.png[/smilie]

Thank you.  There's my answer.

Modifié par Sylvius the Mad, 21 août 2012 - 07:37 .

[Fisto The Sexbot]

Alexandrine Delassixe wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Alexandrine Delassixe wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

I ask this question because I don't know the answer:

Is there a character in either Dragon Age game with obviously non-caucasian features?

Are you joking? You went through both games and thought everyone was white? Torn between lauging and crying.

Once again, you're incorrectly assuming an excluded middle.  And worse, even if there were an excluded midle, that still wouldn't support your conclusion, as there can exist non-white people with caucasian features.

I didn't note everyone's facial features.  Can you point to a character with non-caucasian features?  As I said, I ask because I don't know.  That is not equivalent to claiming I believe the opposite.

Once again, your logic has been very poor on this issue.

The word caucasian. And since there are no features that are exclusively white your question makes no sense. 
You don't know because you refuse to pay attention. If you need some quick proof that poc actually exist in Thedas i'm not going to give it to you. 

Fisto The Sexbot wrote...

You really don't know what caucasian means, do you? 

You obviously don't. Caucasian and white are not interchangable. He meant white.

And you are obviously trolling considering the last few pages. I'm not about that life, sir.

They are interchangeable if you're referring to race. What does this have to do with anything though? Since you already linked the definition more or less, though not without taking it upon yourself to demonstrate the racial insensitivity surrounding it of course, I'm assuming you've read that stuff about all the different ethnicities it applies to and were also made aware that pale, white-ish skin colour /=/ race?

You seem to be treating white skin as a race in itself. White skin is a trait of caucasians; however, caucasians can also have a pretty dark skin tone. In anthropology there are different things to look at for racial classification like bone structure, etc. You obviously won't be able to determine the race of some old bones if you're only looking at skin colour! I know people like to gloss over these things but there's more to race than skin colour.

[Das Tentakel]

FitScotGaymer wrote...

*snip*

This was my point, I am all for it as long as it blends into the universe properly, whatever "it" may be.

My personal decision in favour is only partly based on considerations of inclusiveness. That part is ultimately a purely personal value judgement, based on my personal values and my assessment of the wider situation regarding race relations and what I consider social justice.
BioWare is by no means bound to make that same assessment, or even, if they agree, to act upon it. They are a commercial company and their primary function is to make money for their owner, EA, who in turn is beholden to their stockholders. I will appreciate positive action on their part, but I do not and will not hold it against them if they do not do so.

The other part is the argument in favour of ‘ consistency’. Consistency is important for suspension of disbelief. In the context of a fictional setting, suspension of disbelief is based on the tacit acceptance of a few differences from our world – magic exists, super powers exist, Gods are real, Elves are real – but assuming that the rest – biology, gravity, psychology, politics etc. works in familiar, identical ways. Moreover, the elements of the fictional world have to interact and ‘hang together’ in a consistent way. We KNOW that the fantastic elements are not real, but the ‘real’ elements allow us to suspend disbelief. People do act and think like that; apart from magic, the laws of physics apply. Armour is needed to protect from physical harm. Sailing ships should be similar to those of our world in their functional design, unless they are magical airships or something.

I am totally for it, and it would be totally relevant in the case of a setting that was carefully and meticulously designed. Like this one:





Or perhaps this one:





Or this one:





And, of course, Middle Earth, Earthsea, Westeros and many others.

What we got, though, was a setting with things like:


People dressed and presumably ‘armoured’ like this:



Weapons like this:


Armour like this:


Boats like this:



And gravity and other physical laws operating like this:



And don’t think Dragon Age Origins is, in principle, any different. Dalish armour:



Sorry, but when it comes to fictional settings, in Thedas we’re effectively in Xena space. And we have been there all along.



Then there’s the question of Isabella’s skin colour, which is what you might expect assuming Rivain is analogous to, say, southern Spain:



http://3.bp.blogspot...600/julio-2.bmp

(Andalusian woman, by Julio Romero de Torres (1894-1930))

Let's take a quick peek at the map of Thedas:



Hmmm….looks suspiciously like a distorted version of Europe, put upside down. 'A' for creative effort, there. Hmmm… Pseudo-German Anderfels seems to about the same latitude as Rivain, though also partly overlapping with that of pseudo-Italian Antiva.

And whose origin lies in Anderfels?



This here dude. Quite clearly, the same ‘consistency’ regarding environmental influences that should be comparable to Rivain’s made sure he looks…Northern European?

Here’s where the Fan-supported Retcon Police will probably move in ‘ Erm, yes, erm, y’know, he’s really 99% Ferelden. It’s just a distant ancestor of his who came from Anderfels’
(Meanwhile, in BioWare HQ: Marketing dude: ‘ How the hell are we in the future going to sell Sicilian-looking dudes with Herr Flick accents to our fans?’ Hopeful BioWare dev, in a cheerfully chirpy voice: ‘Well, with some luck loyal fans will praise our creativity and consistent and detailed worldbuilding and ingenious inversion of stereotypes, silencing the critics’ . Marketing dude: ‘Better put in a lesbian sex scene or two, just in case…’)

Well, and let’s not dwell on the fact that Humans, as relatively recent arrivals from subtropical Par Vollen – and thus presumably adapted to its climate - did mightily quick morph into Alistair, Anders and King Cailan.
But thank God for the Retcon Police:
‘Erm, yes, erm, how do you know they haven’t been in Thedas for, erm, a gazillion years, the lore isn’t entirely clear on it and, erm, you exclude the possibility of aliens, yes, aliens kidnapping primitive Europeans and planting them on Par Vollen, and blablablablablabla’

Consistency arguments are equally applicable to language. I can tell you it’s really, really nice seeing French and German being butchered in a clumsy attempt to create new placenames, or the use of existing European placenames without any feeling for linguistic consistency whatsoever, mindlessly mingling them with generic fantasy names. Tolkien is turning in his grave, though to be honest, he probably does a lot of that when it comes to language in fantasy.

Let’s ask the Twins of Kirkwall what they think of their setting’s level of consistency:



Oh dear…

Thedas is what it is: A quick & dirty replacement for the Forgotten Realms setting of BioWare’s Baldur’s Gate days. The kind of setting dozens of interchangeable second and third-rate fantasy novels and D&D (and other RPG) campaign books have created over and over again. Cheap, quick, easy, familiar.

And really, that is alright. I can perfectly understand why BioWare doesn’t want to pay a license fee, or likes the creative freedom (and possible commercial spinoffs) their own IP brings. Consistency, creativity and originality in a fictional setting don’t matter that much in an RPG or a story that is more about characters and combat than it is about setting or even the plot. I certainly didn't play and enjoy DA:O for its wonderfully realized world, I played it for its characters and seeing my character becoming a badass.

It is in my opinion not possible to use, while maintaining a degree of intellectual honesty, the consistency argument, when it is so clearly effectively a non-issue.
In Thedas, things are what they are because the writers say it is so. At any time, they can and will change things as they see fit, and they do, and will, not follow any recognisable, sensible rules regarding world creation. It is THEIR creation after all. ‘Reality’ in Dragon Age is what they say it is, not what we as fans, whether relying on a combination of common sense and any applicable sciences or just talking out of our rearward nether regions, suggest it might be.
And what that means is that Thedas is exceptionally pliable, and a request for Afros, Suevian knots, Manchu braids, !Kung San facial features, and if necessary, European Chalcolithic golden penis sheaths are all reasonable.



(European Chalcolithic golden penis sheaths. Yes, they existed. Every RPG setting 'based on Europe' should have them for the sake of realism and consistency.)

Everything can be retconned into Thedas, really.
We know that BioWare is perfectly capable of putting in things like (silly-looking) sex and including and accommodating a wide range of sexual preferences (something that could get you executed in the Europe-that-was). So what is so controversial about including Afros and non-European facial features?

[syllogi]

Of course, if we call Thedas a replacement for Baldur's Gate's Faerun, we also should note that Toril also had other continents, like Maztica (although it's been retconned into another planet???), Zakhara, and Kara-Tur.

As far as I know, it has never been stated that this land mass is the only known continent.

[Mr Fixit]

syllogi wrote...

Of course, if we call Thedas a replacement for Baldur's Gate's Faerun, we also should note that Toril also had other continents, like Maztica (although it's been retconned into another planet???), Zakhara, and Kara-Tur.

Bolded part segues nicely into Tentakel's post, wouldn't you say? Kitchen sink setting, that's what Thedas is.

[Sylvius the Mad]

syllogi wrote...

Of course, if we call Thedas a replacement for Baldur's Gate's Faerun, we also should note that Toril also had other continents, like Maztica (although it's been retconned into another planet???), Zakhara, and Kara-Tur.

As far as I know, it has never been stated that this land mass is the only known continent.

Faerûn was always a bit of a patchwork setting.  The Flanaess was probably TSR's most credible setting in terms of historical population migrations.

[Mr Fixit]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Faerûn was always a bit of a patchwork setting.  The Flanaess was probably TSR's most credible setting in terms of historical population migrations.

A bit? That thing had everything. There isn't a culture in the Milky Way that isn't represented somewhere on the map.

When I was a wee lad, I liked those kinds of settings. To my younger self, they felt expansive, mysterious, and ripe for exploration. One day you were battling wererats in the sewers below a medieval-feeling city, the next you were in a primordial jungle eradicating cults of monkey-demon worshippers of Demon Monkey. Hell, even today I get bouts of nostalgia and a desire to lose myself in such a setting.

But, most days I just realise how silly and incongruous such things are. Such worlds, and narratives they encourage, are toothless, visionless, and safe.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Mr Fixit wrote...

A bit? That thing had everything. There isn't a culture in the Milky Way that isn't represented somewhere on the map.

I didn't realise how much of a patchwork Faerûn was until I read the Belgariad as an adult.  I'd never read Eddings before, and the Belgariad is such blatant travelogue, hitting every different culture in succession, that it just made obvious how common a design that was for fantasy settings.

And it's awful.

[Fortlowe]

Again I find myself wholeheartedly agreeing with Sas Tentekal.....those penis sheaths look awfully fashionable if you ask me. Also about the flexibility of the narrative. Good show.

[jillabender]

sjpelkessjpeler wrote...

@Das Tentakel

Just.... to express what I fellt when I read your post....brilliant  

Indeed, it was very well expressed – I approve whole-heartedly! ^__^

[Dintonta]

@Das Tentakel
Thank you very much for your post!

On-topic : I would like too having much more choices of hair (curly, dreadlocks, long and moving like in nwn1, for I feel it is less detrimental to the character's look to have hair going through the model than looking completely rigid.)

[Das Tentakel]

Mr Fixit wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Faerûn was always a bit of a patchwork setting.  The Flanaess was probably TSR's most credible setting in terms of historical population migrations.

A bit? That thing had everything. There isn't a culture in the Milky Way that isn't represented somewhere on the map.

When I was a wee lad, I liked those kinds of settings. To my younger self, they felt expansive, mysterious, and ripe for exploration. One day you were battling wererats in the sewers below a medieval-feeling city, the next you were in a primordial jungle eradicating cults of monkey-demon worshippers of Demon Monkey. Hell, even today I get bouts of nostalgia and a desire to lose myself in such a setting.

But, most days I just realise how silly and incongruous such things are. Such worlds, and narratives they encourage, are toothless, visionless, and safe.

Well, there’s something to be said for a ‘kitchensink’ setting, because they provide a writer or Dungeonmaster with lots of choice. It’s also an easy way to introduce visual and thematic variety.

However, the Forgotten Realms are a pretty extreme example of this. It’s got Vikings and Egyptians and Greeks and two different fantasy Arabias (Calimshan and al-Qadim) in it. They retroactively tried to explain everything, of course (throwing cultures from widely different areas and timeperiods together is a time-hallowed practice in fantasy and sf fiction after all). But then the problem with repeated retcons and ‘special pleading explanations’ is that they tend to stretch the thin thread of suspension of disbelief until it snaps.

Faerun can still be fun to me, but only when I get into it with a ‘what the hell why not’ attitude. I had a similar experience with Two Worlds II (thankfully it doesn’t take itself too seriously, and it had some pretty environments and some hilarious sidequests) and, much longer ago, the first Sacred game. I still chuckle when thinking of the pesky little goblins shouting ‘Mach ihn kaputt, kaputt, kaputt’. I think they (wisely) kept the German goblin voices in the English-language version.
Fun? Yes, sometimes. Immersion? Nah.

Come to think of it, I think that was some of the problems I had with the Amalur demo. On the one hand it’s an extremely colourful but generally nicely presented generic fantasy setting with enjoyable, over-the-top arcade-y combat. But on the other hand you frequently had this ‘serious’ tone that really clashed with the rest of the game and which I found extremely off-putting. Amalur needed less pseudo-seriousness and more goblin shamans commanding their minions ‘Bring me his skull, I need a new ashtray’ in German spoken with a funny voice.

But: hair. I think that’s one of the things, with believable faces and facial expressions, that videogames still have a long way to go before they crack it. I am much more of a braid than a dreadlock person (as in finding them visually appealing), but regardless of style or colour or texture, all too often hair looks like it’s made of wood.

We need stuff like this:

 www.youtube.com/watch

We also need stuff like this:

 www.youtube.com/watch


But I understand that while it’s already technically possible (and has been for a couple of years, the second video is from 2010), it IS very resource intensive.
But it is the kind of cutting-edge graphics I can imagine as something CD Projekt might do as a first in a CRPG .

Modifié par Das Tentakel, 22 août 2012 - 08:44 .

[Mr Fixit]

Das Tentakel wrote...


Well, there’s something to be said for a ‘kitchensink’ setting, because they provide a writer or Dungeonmaster with lots of choice. It’s also an easy way to introduce visual and thematic variety.

However, the Forgotten Realms are a pretty extreme example of this. It’s got Vikings and Egyptians and Greeks and two different fantasy Arabias (Calimshan and al-Qadim) in it. They retroactively tried to explain everything, of course (throwing cultures from widely different areas and timeperiods together is a time-hallowed practice in fantasy and sf fiction after all). But then the problem with repeated retcons and ‘special pleading explanations’ is that they tend to stretch the thin thread of suspension of disbelief until it snaps.

Not to derail the thread further, but...

Have you seen Golarion, Pathfinder's default setting? That thing had a devil-worshipping infernal monarchy with denizens of hell walking around the country right next to a French Revolution liberte, egalite, fraternite republic, right next to late-era decadent Roman Empire. What the hell, guys? How am I supposed to play a serious, politically-minded campaign in that? 

If we must have kitchensink settings, I prefer kitchensink settings with an attitude, that have some kind of spin on the usual stuff. In D&D, although I've never played in it, I've always found Eberron interesting. Somewhat kitchensinkish, but with a flare.

[Das Tentakel]

Mr Fixit wrote...

Das Tentakel wrote...


Well, there’s something to be said for a ‘kitchensink’ setting, because they provide a writer or Dungeonmaster with lots of choice. It’s also an easy way to introduce visual and thematic variety.

However, the Forgotten Realms are a pretty extreme example of this. It’s got Vikings and Egyptians and Greeks and two different fantasy Arabias (Calimshan and al-Qadim) in it. They retroactively tried to explain everything, of course (throwing cultures from widely different areas and timeperiods together is a time-hallowed practice in fantasy and sf fiction after all). But then the problem with repeated retcons and ‘special pleading explanations’ is that they tend to stretch the thin thread of suspension of disbelief until it snaps.

Not to derail the thread further, but...

Have you seen Golarion, Pathfinder's default setting? That thing had a devil-worshipping infernal monarchy with denizens of hell walking around the country right next to a French Revolution liberte, egalite, fraternite republic, right next to late-era decadent Roman Empire. What the hell, guys? How am I supposed to play a serious, politically-minded campaign in that? 

If we must have kitchensink settings, I prefer kitchensink settings with an attitude, that have some kind of spin on the usual stuff. In D&D, although I've never played in it, I've always found Eberron interesting. Somewhat kitchensinkish, but with a flare.

Nope, I do have the Eberron sourcebook, thought it reasonably well-done but very...deliberate. As if they had worked off a checklist or something.
The result felt a bit Frankenstein-ish, you could sense where they knitted the disparate parts together .
Sounds like Golarion doesn't have stitches, more like it's held together with a few pieces of tape or something...