107 réponses à ce sujet

[Aesir Rising]

I like cliche in my FRPGs.

I liked BG games and IWD games better than Planescape: Torment, to give a comparative example of an FRPG that didn't follow the formulaic recipe we all know (and apparently only I love).  Lots of people profess to love PS:T because it was an uncommon type of setting and environment.  I disliked it because it was an uncommon setting and environment.

DA changes things up, but I feel as if it does so in a frustratingly formulaic manner, simultaneously defeating the purpose of changing things (to avoid cliche and to appear new or 'fresh'), while retaining a negative aspect of re-using tried & true plot devices (the story seems forced or contrived).

So... I can't hit the escape key fast enough anymore.

When I first started playing, I really did want to read/hear it all.  But I can usually tell from some of the jargonistic and anachronistic player character dialog text prompts when a given NPC dialog is going to suck or (at the very least) feel forced or contrived.  Like the bad joke with the long set up... you know you're going to have to laugh to be polite, but it's painful to sit through the entire delivery and remain attentive.

In some cases, it's not that dialog feels cliched... sometimes it just doesn't seem to fit the game world.  While you don't need a ton of Thee and Thou Arts to make things feel authentic to an archaic time period (Tolkien didn't need to), that doesn't mean I want to feel like my character just stepped off the school bus prior to donning his armor.  Some of the dialog just jolts me right out of the atmosphere of the game.  It's like everyone has a miniature giant space hamster now.  It was only funny when there was one of them.


Bright side:
Some elements I thought were interesting and 'fresh'.  And while I could have predicted an Ostagar DLC would be the first, or one of the firsts (because all the art/game assets already exist, it would be a quick and cheap win to push that out) one thing that I would actually look forward to is a DLC storyline/content that further explores the conflict between The Circle and apostates.  I'd also like to see more about events that may lead to conflict between Ferelden and the Quanari (sp?).

[Elanareon]

Heh? I have the idea that the "Darkspawn" isn't the real main antagonist in the game... Oh, my! I think i screwed up! Maybe i should play the game again to get a better understanding...

[Zenon]

I have a wonderful suggestion to all, who feel like critisizing the writing of DA:O. Make a module with better writing yourself.

[Aesir Rising]

Zenon wrote...

I have a wonderful suggestion to all, who feel like critisizing the writing of DA:O. Make a module with better writing yourself.

I have a better suggestion: Don't provide worthless suggestions.  I didn't like that Saruman and Denethor II were so different in the LotR movies as compared to their characters in the book - but I'm not going to be making my own LotR movie, even though technically I have both the hardware and the software that could allow me to make a movie.

The toolset isn't magic sauce.  All problems with the game aren't best addressed by toolset users.  And re-writing NPC and PC dialog trees for the official campaign isn't what I personally consider to be time well spent.   But I really shouldn't have justified your response with a response of my own.  It was just a stupid thing to suggest.

[enderandrew]

"There are no new ideas. There are only new ways of making them felt." Audre Lorde



Clearly Audre Lord was stealing that sentiment from everyone who said it first.

[GHL_Soul_Reaver]

Since when has older games been rated FRPG?... what does teh F stand for??.. there is RPG and MMORPG... then adventure games which is different pf course.

[Zenon]

Aesir Rising wrote...

Zenon wrote...

I have a wonderful suggestion to all, who feel like critisizing the writing of DA:O. Make a module with better writing yourself.

I have a better suggestion: Don't provide worthless suggestions.  I didn't like that Saruman and Denethor II were so different in the LotR movies as compared to their characters in the book - but I'm not going to be making my own LotR movie, even though technically I have both the hardware and the software that could allow me to make a movie.

The toolset isn't magic sauce.  All problems with the game aren't best addressed by toolset users.  And re-writing NPC and PC dialog trees for the official campaign isn't what I personally consider to be time well spent.   But I really shouldn't have justified your response with a response of my own.  It was just a stupid thing to suggest.

So, you admit you couldn't do it better, even if you found the time worthwhile trying? I also didn't suggest to rewrite the game, but to simply create a module with a unique story.

In NWN I once played some modules, which had stories thrilling me more than the story shipped with the game. Also some aspects of the gameplay were altered to fit into the scenario.

So it is possible and not a worthless suggestion. What I also meant to express is, that it is always easier to critisize something than to do something better. Think about this... especially before you write any reply.

[Dieover]

The only time i spam Esp was when i wanna see what my action would impact the out come after couple of reload.



YOU on the other hand op are a disgrace to RPG games every where : P



in a good way.

[Naked Fury]

GHL_Soul_Reaver wrote...

It is not what I am saying damn you... I am saying that the entire STORY is basically a copy of LOTR... not the lore or whatever it is reused many places and the true lore origins from myths and and folk lore, Not some Tolkien dude or gary Gylgarnax however his name is spelt.

I am speaking about the story line... most of the concept is just LOTR if you watch the three movies as well as if you read the three BOOKs which are better than the movies you would understand what it was I would be talking about.. friggen hell the general lore can be reused... it you read between the lines you would see that I even mentioned that.

Yes that appears to be the general theme here. It seems few could see my point that original stories can take place in familiar settings. Most responses are along the lines of, "Oh well dwarves and elves are reused, therefore it's unfair to expect the story not to be reused." It doesn't follow.

Stressing the point appears to have had little effect, though I am relieved at least one person understood. The other issue, typical on the Internet, is that people respond without reading the thread. My clarifications to the OP have largely gone unnoticed.

Many responses here are similar to what one finds in religious discussions. In many ways, religion subverts discussion because a religious person has already made up his mind, and indeed is proud of not being able to change it. In that sense, religion is an opposing force to rational discussion. I can tell when something like this is occuring in other settings (such as fanboydom) when the most obvious of points (such as above) are not apprehended (consciously or unconsciously).

[Ultrazennn]

Awesome! Used the editor and change all the dialogue, voila!!! FIXED!

[ransompendragon]

Some of you people are really harsh. Sheesh. People can't post "complaints"? Even though this post isn't a complaint. The guy tells us his experience in a thoughtful and amusing manner. He even used real words and correct spelling! (And I had some similar thoughts in the opening cutscenes).

I come to the forums because I am a fan of the game, yes and I am enjoying it (and haven't even finished once through because I work too much...) -- but game forums are not just for those people who think the game is the best thing since lembas. It's a way to share our experience.

In this thread I did enjoy reading those of you who both agreed and disagreed with the OP but at least made your remarks in an intelligent and non bashing way. For me that enriches my experience and I may just take more time with the codex next chance I get to play.

Those of you who come into threads and write you are so "tired of reading complaints" and "don't complain, do it better if you are so smart" or whatever seriously need to get a life.

cheers,
ransom

edited for spelling.  enchantment !

Modifié par ransompendragon, 24 décembre 2009 - 04:49 .

[Alexus_VG]

Naked Fury wrote...
Yes that appears to be the general theme here. It seems few could see my point that original stories can take place in familiar settings. Most responses are along the lines of, "Oh well dwarves and elves are reused, therefore it's unfair to expect the story not to be reused." It doesn't follow.

Stressing the point appears to have had little effect, though I am relieved at least one person understood. The other issue, typical on the Internet, is that people respond without reading the thread. My clarifications to the OP have largely gone unnoticed.

Many responses here are similar to what one finds in religious discussions. In many ways, religion subverts discussion because a religious person has already made up his mind, and indeed is proud of not being able to change it. In that sense, religion is an opposing force to rational discussion. I can tell when something like this is occuring in other settings (such as fanboydom) when the most obvious of points (such as above) are not apprehended (consciously or unconsciously).

Actually there are still atleast a few of us arround on the forums that are capable of having a productive discission. Unfortunatly I don't see how you expect it to happen bringing up a topic like this here in the no spoiler section of the boards. There is a whole segment of the forums that is dedicated to discussing the story in detail and with spoilers. There you can afford to point out the specific parts of the story and/or dialog that you seem to find so lacking and expect people to address your argument in full possession of the facts.

[Zenon]

ransompendragon wrote...

Some of you people are really harsh. Sheesh. People can't post "complaints"? Even though this post isn't a complaint. The guy tells us his experience in a thoughtful and amusing manner. He even used real words and correct spelling! (And I had some similar thoughts in the opening cutscenes).

I come to the forums because I am a fan of the game, yes and I am enjoying it (and haven't even finished once through because I work too much...) -- but game forums are not just for those people who think the game is the best thing since lembas. It's a way to share our experience.

In this thread I did enjoy reading those of you who both agreed and disagreed with the OP but at least made your remarks in an intelligent and non bashing way. For me that enriches my experience and I may just take more time with the codex next chance I get to play.

Those of you who come into threads and write you are so "tired of reading complaints" and "don't complain, do it better if you are so smart" or whatever seriously need to get a life.

cheers,
ransom

edited for spelling.  enchantment !

It would be nice, if people would use search and add to existing threads with similar problems. It's like they critisize: The same story over and over again. And doing that in a general manner, instead of going to the spoiler section and naming the details they disliked, but rather critisizing the game in general. Especially if some arguments are being used, which are simply not true.

Also to me there were some stronger and weaker spots in the story, which is often also dependent on my personal feelings. To expect an epic game or story to be 100% comletely great, innovatice and unique all the way into the details is an expectation almost impossible to meet for every reader or gamer, especially when we talk about a huge audience.

So, why did I suggest the complaining people to make it better? Maybe then they'll see how much effort it takes to create something good. Maybe some can really come up with something awesome, like some modders in the still active NWN community did. Things are just easier said then done. There is a toolset, with which many things about the game can be altered, additional quests can be put into the main campaign or even stand-alone modules are possible. So, all those knowing everything better can try to actually do it better. I know it's unrealistic to wish to see it happen, that those critics come up with something more original and higher quality. But hopes die last.

Edited to weed out some typos.

Modifié par Zenon, 24 décembre 2009 - 10:12 .

[Godeshus]

PriscilaSSR wrote...

 
(Sorry, if I sound rude... But I'm tired of these topics cluttering the forum... Just ignore me if you don't agree...)

Then it's a good thing you did your part to keep it at the top of the front page.

[RampantBeaver]

The biggest annoyance I see when I frequent these forums is people who make the assumption everyone who disliked the game is either a creature of a far lower intelligence than them, looking for attention or a troll and therefore looking for an argument.

If you feel any of the above are correct about the op then simple do not post. No one has the right to tell someone they cannot post in these forums. Having said that I would argue this is in the wrong part of the forum and would probably have served its purpose better in the *spoilers* section. Also this is a common topic that is often brought up so the op could have exercised the search and probably found many posts along the same lines. However sometimes it is worth recreating a thread if it is a commonly discussed topic.

I would have considered constructive responses to recite the parts of the game that many others found engaging that the OP may not have experienced fully. Failing that, accept that never will a game appeal to all audiences, and this is just simply one of those cases.

Now taking my own advice and in response to the OP I too partially agree that the games story did not quite engage me like KOTOR or other Bioware titles have in the past. However I still enjoyed the game immensely and I never found myself skipping dialogue.

I would ask whether you explored all the dialogue options with your companions, especially Morrigan and Alistair, as these two, I, and many others, found to be the most engaging. Have you looked at any of the DLC? As these add their own sort of sub-stories that may enlist you for a time.

I would perhaps suggest more if this was not situated in the *NO spoiler's* section, but at the end of the day, if you just weren't drawn in by it, then perhaps it's just not the game for you. I do try to think of the game as the first in a possible line of titles; after all, a sequel has already been announced and is in the works. So the story has the potential to develop and fly off in almost limitless tangents. The setting is set for a great trilogy or possibly even a saga and I have faith in Bioware that they will deliver.

As a final suggestion have you tried Mass Effect? I can't say any other game has quite touched me like that one did; it truly is one of the greats. In terms of story and immersion, I would put it above all previous Bioware titles. Plus all the dialogue is performed by voice actors, even that of the protagonist, so I very much doubt you would find yourself skipping it.

[cherubstyle]

lord of the rings barrowing? as some have said LOTR and every other rpg/book/whatever around these days take ideas from several sources and make something new.
need proof that they did not copy LOTR in any way at all and everyone sort of borrows ideas from one another? they certainly took ideas and changed them a bit but then again so did LOTR aaannnnd here we go

1. ancient greek mythology
2. ancient rome
3. the bible
4. ancient chinese stories
5. cave paintings
6. dinosaur bones

and a few more now to explain how each of these were STOLEN and put right into LOTR and countless others? ( i dont really concider it stealing. more like taking an idea and bringing it to life in an interesting way )

greek mythology had tales of dragons, giants, gods, demons and zombies akk manner of evil things living underground knights in armor saving the day, incest, evil men doing evil deeds, magic, great battles, deceit, lies, sex, kings queens castles, strange humanoids not much unlike a dwarf or an elf,  oooooo wait.......most of my other points had many of these things to.
dungeons and dragons, everquest,diablo, countless MMO's and books.....soo maybe what you want is for games or movies to never be made again now that we have 40 million fantasy/modern/futuristic games and movies. because they would just be copying right?

[Baalzie]

Rainen89 wrote...

I do, I also see a resemblance between orcs/trolls/goblins/demons/dragons/elves/dwarves blah, blah, blah, blah, blah those things or ideas at least existed way before LOTR I assure you. Yes they're similar. Frankly the only thing that seems to change in peoples interpretation of size/appearance is elves/trolls. For whatever reason. Otherwise it's pretty much copy/paste. This is a fantasy game if they want a fantasy crowd they need to pick similar elements. Frankly the broodmother concept is completely original.

Actually ORCS are the one original race/idea J.R.R did all by himself...
NOONE had orcs before Tolkien...
Elves of different kinds are in Scandinavian and English*Origin Celtic* folklore aswell...
Goblins are an assortment of small evil'ish creatures in many different folklore aroud the world...
Trolls are all over the place in folklores...
Demons are A religious idea, dragons have been around in fantasies since before men could speak probably...
Dwarves are like elves, lots of different ones around...

BUT the STEREOTYPICAL Dwarf, Elf etc is mainly taken straight from Tolkien...*Or the derivate rpg's that used his visions alot*
He's the one who created most FANTASYGENRE races as they are... The playable humanoids atleast...
He took all these very different ideas and molded each one into the different races we see soooooooo often in fantasysettings...
Not many dare stray away from the set mold too much, since folks wonder why they use that name for them if they want to create their own races...

See, it's written here in text, on the intahwebbz! It haz to be true now!

Modifié par Baalzie, 24 décembre 2009 - 01:06 .

[cherubstyle]

yaknow if you think about it..dragons really did exist in a way with flying dinos of the day, they just didnt breath fire. some poor caveman must have been running from one near a volcano and thought " holy hell if it breaths fire, i wander what comes out the other end "

Modifié par cherubstyle, 24 décembre 2009 - 01:43 .

[Mordaedil]

Guys, remember how the elves in Lord of the Rings were like, second-class citizens and stuff, how the dwarves were like, totally xenophobic or how bit of a problem blood magic was, because it turned people into Wraiths or something and then there was totally that dragon that they fought at the end and there was no one ring, but more like 27 rings they wore that they kept bringing up but didn't have any significance to the story except add a few minor magical enhancements?

Right, those things? Totally the same.

[ransompendragon]

@zenon,



thanks for responding to my post! As I have not finished the game I am avoiding the spoilers forum, but I see your point that a more full discussion would be possible there. I am a fan of the search function myself as I rarely ever (on most forums) have anything so original to post as to start a thread. I just enjoy reading about the experience of others and seeing the game from other points of view.



on topic: I think it has some borrowed elements but overall is done well and I am enjoying it. I am a fan of "sword and sorcery" RPGs more than any other kind of game period so if I get the same basic elements over and over it typically doesn't bother me.



merry whatever!

ransom

[Adnihilis]

A game forum is to express opinions about the game (among other things). This isn't a circle jerk. If you have praise for the game, you can do it here. If you have criticisms of the game, you also can do that here. This isn't supposed to be some single-opinion arena of complements. Let's not be so fascist about people's impressions.



I, too, agree completely with the original poster. The story IS, in my opinion, very derivative. About the only thing you can truly give this game is depth to the character development, i.e. tons of conversations. Frankly, even those aren't really impressive to me. It's not that I dislike playing the game; I just am not wowwed by it. Once again, that's a matter of opinion.



Criticism of this game doesn't denote a lower intellect. It doesn't even actually imply that we are opposed to the idea of a strong story in our games. Many of us enjoy similar games that, in our estimation, get things right. For us, though, DA doesn't quite hit the mark. I mean, for the record, I don't even LIKE FPS games. I read a lot and watch a ton of films. Story IS important, but it has to be engaging. Plus, in a video game, it cannot overshadow the gameplay, either. Otherwise, we might as well just read a book or watch a film, as it likely will end up with a more fleshed out, deeper story than the medium of a game can allow.



To a handful of people (including the original poster), know that you're not alone in your assessment. I, for one, am glad to have read your takes. A forum without such ends up coming off as nothing short of sycophantic.

[Aesir Rising]

Zenon wrote...

So, you admit you couldn't do it better, even if you found the time worthwhile trying? I also didn't suggest to rewrite the game, but to simply create a module with a unique story.

In NWN I once played some modules, which had stories thrilling me more than the story shipped with the game. Also some aspects of the gameplay were altered to fit into the scenario.

So it is possible and not a worthless suggestion. What I also meant to express is, that it is always easier to critisize something than to do something better. Think about this... especially before you write any reply.

Admit to what?  That I can't write a better story?  Ok. I admit it.  That means I'm not allowed to criticize, right?  This is what you posted twice, yes? 

You can't be serious. Think about this...especially before you write any reply.

[Alexus_VG]

Adnihilis wrote...

 I read a lot and watch a ton of films. Story IS important, but it has to be engaging. Plus, in a video game, it cannot overshadow the gameplay, either. Otherwise, we might as well just read a book or watch a film, as it likely will end up with a more fleshed out, deeper story than the medium of a game can allow.

This is quite true though I don't think a lot of people take into consideration just how many limitations a writer has to deal with when working on the story for a game. He or she may well have a fully fledged story and characters in their mind during concepting but just how much of that can you put into a few dialogs and the occasional cutscene. Not to mention how many elements of the story have to bend arround elements of the gameplay. This is where the truly difficult descisions come into play. How much of what you have come up with can you put in, without say overshadowing other elements such as the gameplay or making it too linear, and how much can you cut out without harming concepts that are essential to the plot. This is perhaps something that can be difficult to see from the proverbial sidelines. Maybe it's what Zenon was trying to point out but I will not put words in his mouth.

That said I am simlpy pointing out a few facts that I feel some people neglect to take into consideration when evaluating the story of a game. It is perhaps more than a little unfair to compare it to that of a book or even a movie. I am in no way sugesting that your average gamer should not voice their oppinion or even critisism of any elements of the final product including the story. On the contrary I believe that both positive and negative feedback can be invaluable to developers so long as it is atleast to an extent constructive in nature.

[Zenon]

Aesir Rising wrote...

Zenon wrote...

So, you admit you couldn't do it better, even if you found the time worthwhile trying? I also didn't suggest to rewrite the game, but to simply create a module with a unique story.

In NWN I once played some modules, which had stories thrilling me more than the story shipped with the game. Also some aspects of the gameplay were altered to fit into the scenario.

So it is possible and not a worthless suggestion. What I also meant to express is, that it is always easier to critisize something than to do something better. Think about this... especially before you write any reply.

Admit to what?  That I can't write a better story?  Ok. I admit it.  That means I'm not allowed to criticize, right?  This is what you posted twice, yes? 

You can't be serious. Think about this...especially before you write any reply.

Everyone of course has the right of his/her own opinion. I just reread your post where you point out what you actually disliked about the writing. Some stuff seems too predictable, while Bioware puts some (more or less) original twists into the classic setting. At some points I was surprised by some new way the story develops. In fact part of Redcliffe was kind of little bit spoilered to me by previews, reviews, trailers, etc., then again the way how to solve the quest including the different options and moral considerations was IMO nicely made and acted out.

Anyway, in fact the older I get, the more many stories in books, movies, games become more or less predictable at a certain point. So it may be not entirely the fault of a certain writer, since this happens to me with many different works. I still enjoy it, if it's well made. As for DA:O, I can only say without pointing out some potential spoilers: All in all I enjoyed it. And most dialogues didn't feel "forced" to me as much as they seem to you.

One of the movies which really knocked me off my feet (figuratively speaking) was when I watched "The Sixth Sense" for the first time. Sadly "Unbreakable" was already weaker in spite of the great actors.

I think most of this jaw-dropping writing works, if the author manages to play successfully with the expectations of the reader. Often this works by starting from something familiar to the reader and then twisting it into something new in a original way and surprising the reader. While this principle sounds simple, I'd say it's difficult to perform equally well for everybody in a huge audience where everybody has different life experience, etc. While maybe not being the pinnacle of originality compared to all of Bioware's work, I still feel the game and story is solidly written and was very entertaining as a whole. But maybe I'm a bit strange, because I immensely enjoy the Fade parts, which quite a few people complained about.

I just read, that ME2 is supposed to focus more on action than on RPG. Makes me wonder, if I'll still enjoy it or even if I should not get it. Perhaps I should read a review beforehand. There were some parts in ME, that made it more engaging than any other game I played. And those were hardly the action parts... hopefully Bioware doesn't stop working on the story, while it seems so much easier to just throw in some guns and aliens into a FPS to outsell epic RPGs. (Comparing MW2 with no plot, but lots of shooting, to DA:O where plot is IMHO more important than bashing Darkspawn in tactically challenging battles.)