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Bioware on how to monetise players *article*


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#226
Joy Divison

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Maria Caliban wrote...

Given that I like games and I think the average developer is just a regular person trying to pay their bills, as opposed to a 'corporate hack,' I'd rather not see an industry crash.

When I was young, two adults could go to the movies for eight dollars, gas was under a dollar a gallon, and video games were about sixty dollars. Now two adults cost twenty-four dollars to go to the movies, gas is $3.89 a gallon, and a video game is... about sixty dollars.

That tells me right there why video game publishers are looking for alternate ways to make money. They can't do what the vast majority of entertainment media has done and just double the price of a game.


When you were young, the actual amount of video games that were sold was far less.  100,000 copies was considered an outstanding success.

#227
hoorayforicecream

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Gatt9 wrote...

-First,  it assumes that the present quality and diversity of games is equivalent to what was present in the past.  This isn't true.  The current business plan is to release endless sequels to shooters,  while abandoning pretty much all other genres (Except Action-Adventure).  Quality has dropped,  new IP's are virtually non-existant,  and diversity is virtually non-existant.  Even if you contrast this to the PS2 era or PSx era,  you can see this.  Especially if you consider the big names from those platforms,  more than a few of which were in the now "Taboo" non-shooter genres (Resident Evil,  Final Fantasy 7,  Fable,  etc)


I don't understand what you are saying. Are you suggesting that every publisher is only putting out shooters? Because that's certainly not true. Zenimax owns id, but are you going to tell me that Fallout 3 and New Vegas are shooters?  Civilization? Diablo 3? Starcraft 2? Take a look for yourself at 2011's games for PS3. I counted them all. 279 games total, including DLCs. The total number of shooters I counted was 43 (I can post them by title if you like), and I even included questionable ones like Mass Effect 2 and Portal 2. Endless shooters? There's still sports, racing, strategy (both turn-based and real time), RPG, fighting, action-adventure, puzzle, and rhythm/music games that were all released in 2011. 

I'd like to see some evidence for your claims, since I have provided mine. Perhaps you can take a look at 2010 and count them up for me?

-Second,  it assumes that team sizes must be of the current trend in order to make a modern video game.  This is again false.  You don't need every line of dialogue voiced,  Final Fantasy 7 doesn't have any voiced dialogue and it's *still* selling today.  Nor do you need the latest whizz-bang graphics,  Minecraft has sold more units than any of Bioware-EA's recent releases.  At least 10 million in sales.  Great games sell great.  The issue isn't that modern games need massive expenses,  it's that Publishers perceive extremely expensive non-gameplay assets like voice-overs and cut-scenes to be mandatory.


There are plenty of examples of great games that don't sell great. Beyond Good and Evil and Psychonauts both immediately spring to mind. Braid, Journey, and plenty of award-winning games don't sell that well. The Witcher 2 sold under 3 million copies, and Deus Ex: Human Revolution did as well, while games like Battlefield, Skyrim, Grand Theft Auto, and Call of Duty (all with huge teams) sell many more units. Batman: Arkham City sold around 4.6 million. But honestly, you're just using anecdotal evidence, rather than quantitative analysis like you pretend to be.

While it is true that some games made by a small team can have huge sales (Minecraft), you have to look at the overall numbers. Of those games that sell more than 2 million copies, how many were developed by small teams? How many were developed by large teams? People win the lottery too, but that doesn't mean that it's a feasible revenue model.

Modifié par hoorayforicecream, 15 août 2012 - 01:34 .


#228
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Elhanan wrote...

Sorry, but your opinion on ME3 and DA2 as non-artistic offerings does not trump logical reasoning that all BW offerings were made to aquire finanial success.


And of course Bioware's biggest boot licker shows up to take one for the team - I'm gonna respond to you once, and then after that I'm not gonna give you the time of day.

Here's something you might not know about artists (I'll be sure to put it simply, so you'll understand): an artist creates art because they genuinely want to create art, not because they simply want to make money - that's just not how it works. Anyone who is an artist, no matter how talented or well-known they might be, knows precisely what I'm talking about.

But if you want to share your art with people and make some money in the process, you usually need someone to help you distribute it (unless you're one of those rare individuals who are savvy enough to do that all on your own) - this is the function publishers like EA are supposed to serve. They'll look at your creation, and if they think it can sell, they'll distribute it for you and keep a cut of the profits for themselves - and that's only fair for the service they've provided you.

What we have here, however, is a publisher who wants to meddle in your creative process and dictate how the art is made, and who it's made for - and I'm not talking about a loose set of guidelines for the artist to follow or a bit of constructive criticism. I'm talking about someone coming in and dictating to you what to make, how to make it, who to make it for, and pretty much everything else about it.

But wait: that's not how you make "art." An artist creates art because they genuinely want to create art... right? Who the hell are these people to come in and tell you what story to write, how to write it, who to write it for, etc.? Maybe you should just tell these people to shove it and go back to doing things how you want to do them...

...or maybe you can just keep turning out "art by-the-numbers" for these people and keep the money rolling in for them and (more importantly) for yourself - or maybe you simply have no real choice but to keep working for these douchebags if you wanna eat and have some place to sleep at night.

Either way, is your art as universally acclaimed as it used to be? Do people enjoy it as much as some of your previous works? Did people feel like they weren't getting the "full experience" when they admired your work? Did your other works generate vehement backlash among fans and inspire "Retake" movements because the art felt so piecemeal and formulaic? Did people feel like they were getting screwed out of their money because you sold your art to them in pieces instead of as a complete work?

Hey, who the hell cares? I'M RICH, B****!

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#229
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If ME1 came out today, I wouldn't be surprised to see Wrex and Garrus as day 1 DLCs. "They're optional recruits! It's extra content! That means you should pay extra!"

#230
Elhanan

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greengoron89 wrote...

And of course Bioware's biggest boot licker shows up to take one for the team - I'm gonna respond to you once, and then after that I'm not gonna give you the time of day.

Here's something you might not know about artists (I'll be sure to put it simply, so you'll understand): an artist creates art because they genuinely want to create art, not because they simply want to make money - that's just not how it works. Anyone who is an artist, no matter how talented or well-known they might be, knows precisely what I'm talking about.

But if you want to share your art with people and make some money in the process, you usually need someone to help you distribute it (unless you're one of those rare individuals who are savvy enough to do that all on your own) - this is the function publishers like EA are supposed to serve. They'll look at your creation, and if they think it can sell, they'll distribute it for you and keep a cut of the profits for themselves - and that's only fair for the service they've provided you.

What we have here, however, is a publisher who wants to meddle in your creative process and dictate how the art is made, and who it's made for - and I'm not talking about a loose set of guidelines for the artist to follow or a bit of constructive criticism. I'm talking about someone coming in and dictating to you what to make, how to make it, who to make it for, and pretty much everything else about it.

But wait: that's not how you make "art." An artist creates art because they genuinely want to create art... right? Who the hell are these people to come in and tell you what story to write, how to write it, who to write it for, etc.? Maybe you should just tell these people to shove it and go back to doing things how you want to do them...

...or maybe you can just keep turning out "art by-the-numbers" for these people and keep the money rolling in for them and (more importantly) for yourself - or maybe you simply have no real choice but to keep working for these douchebags if you wanna eat and have some place to sleep at night.

Either way, is your art as universally acclaimed as it used to be? Do people enjoy it as much as some of your previous works? Did people feel like they weren't getting the "full experience" when they admired your work? Did your other works generate vehement backlash among fans and inspire "Retake" movements because the art felt so piecemeal and formulaic? Did people feel like they were getting screwed out of their money because you sold your art to them in pieces instead of as a complete work?....


The forums here are full of artists, but the ones that are providing the Forum are actually in business. Same goes for Bethesda and many others.

 But pls do not allow reality cloud your subjectivity.....

#231
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That link with Melo talking about DLC couldn't be more cynical. The problem isn't at what moment people want the DLC.

The problem is you made the content and it was ready to go before release. And yet you sold it separately instead of integrating it in the game with the rest of the content, which is effectively the same as just making the game and then cutting a piece off it and selling it separately.

This is what customers want you to do:
- Make a game and sell it.
- And then make more content for the game and sell it.
- And then make more content and sell it.

Instead, you cut all the corners in the world, you removed a third of the speech options (the neutral ones), you added excessive autodialogue, you reduced the ME2 squad to cameos, dead characters were replaced with carbon copies that said the same lines instead of making that circumstance matter, you shipped the game with an import tool that didn't work at all, the lip synch was totally off, etc. etc. not to mention the exact same footage with a different color for the "wildly diverging endings". You diverted resources from that and used them to make another item that could be bought separately. As a result, instead of having simply a great game, you have a flawed game and a piece of DLC.

Yes, I've heard the allegation that the writers were done with their part so they could start working on Javik. But hey, how about working on ME2 squadmates instead, or working on the neutral option, or having your consequences matter a little more instead of having notLegion and notGrunt saying exactly the same things if the original ones are dead? Why not choose to make a great game? Because it would be only one item to sell instead of two?

Not that hard to understand, Stan. You may want to send a link of this message to Melo.

Modifié par Nyoka, 15 août 2012 - 02:37 .


#232
slimgrin

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I also wonder if developers should consider replay-ability as a way for long term investment rather than new bite-sized chunks of content used to lure the player back. Create a game that has long term appeal, one that gamers will come back to again and again, rather than a cinematic affair that's 8 hrs long with average multiplayer that people will play once and move on. It drops off the consumer's radar too soon. Of course I'm thinking of devs like Bethesda and CDPR here.

Modifié par slimgrin, 15 août 2012 - 02:36 .


#233
Gatt9

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hoorayforicecream wrote...

Gatt9 wrote...

-First,  it assumes that the present quality and diversity of games is equivalent to what was present in the past.  This isn't true.  The current business plan is to release endless sequels to shooters,  while abandoning pretty much all other genres (Except Action-Adventure).  Quality has dropped,  new IP's are virtually non-existant,  and diversity is virtually non-existant.  Even if you contrast this to the PS2 era or PSx era,  you can see this.  Especially if you consider the big names from those platforms,  more than a few of which were in the now "Taboo" non-shooter genres (Resident Evil,  Final Fantasy 7,  Fable,  etc)


I don't understand what you are saying. Are you suggesting that every publisher is only putting out shooters? Because that's certainly not true. Zenimax owns id, but are you going to tell me that Fallout 3 and New Vegas are shooters?  Civilization? Diablo 3? Starcraft 2? Take a look for yourself at 2011's games for PS3. I counted them all. 279 games total, including DLCs. The total number of shooters I counted was 43 (I can post them by title if you like), and I even included questionable ones like Mass Effect 2 and Portal 2. Endless shooters? There's still sports, racing, strategy (both turn-based and real time), RPG, fighting, action-adventure, puzzle, and rhythm/music games that were all released in 2011. 

I'd like to see some evidence for your claims, since I have provided mine. Perhaps you can take a look at 2010 and count them up for me?


Actually,  I would argue that you haven't provided your evidence.  You're stacking the deck by using a list that doesn't differentiate between DLC and Game release.  It lets you artificially inflate the relationships because an RPG will have more DLC's than a Shooter.  It lets you count Dragone Age 2 several times,  but Bulletstorm only once.

You're also mixing in Arcade games and Retail games,  again in order to skew the numbers.  Go ahead and do your numbers again without the DLC's and Arcade games and see what happens.

It's also worth noting that in order to demonstrate diversity,  you have to take PC releases. 

-Second,  it assumes that team sizes must be of the current trend in order to make a modern video game.  This is again false.  You don't need every line of dialogue voiced,  Final Fantasy 7 doesn't have any voiced dialogue and it's *still* selling today.  Nor do you need the latest whizz-bang graphics,  Minecraft has sold more units than any of Bioware-EA's recent releases.  At least 10 million in sales.  Great games sell great.  The issue isn't that modern games need massive expenses,  it's that Publishers perceive extremely expensive non-gameplay assets like voice-overs and cut-scenes to be mandatory.


There are plenty of examples of great games that don't sell great. Beyond Good and Evil and Psychonauts both immediately spring to mind. Braid, Journey, and plenty of award-winning games don't sell that well. The Witcher 2 sold under 3 million copies, and Deus Ex: Human Revolution did as well, while games like Battlefield, Skyrim, Grand Theft Auto, and Call of Duty (all with huge teams) sell many more units. Batman: Arkham City sold around 4.6 million. But honestly, you're just using anecdotal evidence, rather than quantitative analysis like you pretend to be.

While it is true that some games made by a small team can have huge sales (Minecraft), you have to look at the overall numbers. Of those games that sell more than 2 million copies, how many were developed by small teams? How many were developed by large teams? People win the lottery too, but that doesn't mean that it's a feasible revenue model.


You're trying to use Publisher math here.  Just because a game doesn't sell 10 million units doesn't mean it failed.  Different genres have different potential markets.  Just like a Horror movie or a Comedy is very unlikely to sell as many tickets as a Summer blockbuster.  That doesn't mean all those Horror and Comedies are failures.  Just because an RPG or an Adventure game didn't sell 10 million units doesn't make it a failure.

One of the biggest problems with the Industry.  The misconception that every game should sell 10-20 million units. 

You're also trying to stack the deck again,  because you're not mentioning that it's impossible for a small team to release on a Console because the costs to do so are ridiculous ($40,000 just to patch a game on the 360 from what I've read recently regarding Konami).

Further,  if a small team developed a game,  it's successful at a whole lot lower number of units than 2 million.  2 million units is at least $20 million in profit at just $10/sale.  A small team can be quite successfull at 1,000,000 or even 500,000.

Which is exactly my point.  You don't need a large team to be successfull.  You most certainly don't need to gouge consumers to be successfull.

#234
hoorayforicecream

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Gatt9 wrote...

Actually,  I would argue that you haven't provided your evidence.  You're stacking the deck by using a list that doesn't differentiate between DLC and Game release.  It lets you artificially inflate the relationships because an RPG will have more DLC's than a Shooter.  It lets you count Dragone Age 2 several times,  but Bulletstorm only once.

You're also mixing in Arcade games and Retail games,  again in order to skew the numbers.  Go ahead and do your numbers again without the DLC's and Arcade games and see what happens.

It's also worth noting that in order to demonstrate diversity,  you have to take PC releases.  


By all means then, prove me wrong. You have the same list, and I even linked it to you. You're the one who asserted that publishers put out tons of shooters and action-adventures, at the cost of other genres. By all means, do the research, rather than assume you are correct and make others disprove you.

You're trying to use Publisher math here.  Just because a game doesn't sell 10 million units doesn't mean it failed.  Different genres have different potential markets.  Just like a Horror movie or a Comedy is very unlikely to sell as many tickets as a Summer blockbuster.  That doesn't mean all those Horror and Comedies are failures.  Just because an RPG or an Adventure game didn't sell 10 million units doesn't make it a failure.

One of the biggest problems with the Industry.  The misconception that every game should sell 10-20 million units.  


Not true at all. Publishers actually have sales forecasts, and no, they are not always 10-20 million units. Games need to be profitable. There are large teams and small teams. Every year since 1998, EA Sports puts out another Tiger Woods Golf game. Does it sell 10 million copies? No, not even close. Are they aiming to sell 10 million copies? Again, no, not at all. But that's ok, because they have a small team and don't need the huge sales. It's profitable enough on its own to sustain itself and provide some added revenue for the company. Games like Lego Pirates of the Caribbean, Dynasty Warriors, Just Dance 3, Marvel vs Capcom 3, Disagaea 4, Catherine, WWE Allstars, You Don't Know Jack, and Back to the Future (all released in 2011 and not a shooter among them) aren't aimed at selling huge numbers. They're aimed at being profitable for their development cost, and serving a niche. Some of them are profitable. Many are not.

The problem I brought up originally is that the industry overall is hurting, because overall sales are going down. You argued that it is because you think that publishers are chasing 10 million unit sales and shooters, but I can point to dozens of games on that list from 2011 with smaller teams and smaller budgets that have no such aspirations, yet are hit by the exact same problems that the bigger publishers are - year over year contraction of the market overall. You've got no actual hard evidence beyond your own conjecture, yet you talk as if you do and discount actual evidence provided without actual contradictory evidence of your own, whereas I have provided links, sources and numbers.

In short... put up or shut up. :wizard:

#235
CS420

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Giggles_Manically wrote...

Bioware has become frankly pathetic with its business ideals.

Image IPB

This infographic is bad and you should feel bad.

#236
Ninja Stan

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Nyoka wrote...

That link with Melo talking about DLC couldn't be more cynical. The problem isn't at what moment people want the DLC.

The problem is you made the content and it was ready to go before release. And yet you sold it separately instead of integrating it in the game with the rest of the content, which is effectively the same as just making the game and then cutting a piece off it and selling it separately.

This is what customers want you to do:
- Make a game and sell it.
- And then make more content for the game and sell it.
- And then make more content and sell it.

Instead, you cut all the corners in the world, you removed a third of the speech options (the neutral ones), you added excessive autodialogue, you reduced the ME2 squad to cameos, dead characters were replaced with carbon copies that said the same lines instead of making that circumstance matter, you shipped the game with an import tool that didn't work at all, the lip synch was totally off, etc. etc. not to mention the exact same footage with a different color for the "wildly diverging endings". You diverted resources from that and used them to make another item that could be bought separately. As a result, instead of having simply a great game, you have a flawed game and a piece of DLC.

Yes, I've heard the allegation that the writers were done with their part so they could start working on Javik. But hey, how about working on ME2 squadmates instead, or working on the neutral option, or having your consequences matter a little more instead of having notLegion and notGrunt saying exactly the same things if the original ones are dead? Why not choose to make a great game? Because it would be only one item to sell instead of two?

Not that hard to understand, Stan. You may want to send a link of this message to Melo.

One might suggest that BioWare, as the company doing all the work, has the prerogative to determine its own schedules and products. But I suppose that any gamer should have the right--nay, the obligation--to tell developers what they should develop, how, and when. Because it's the gamer that has tens of millions of dollars and tens of thousands of man-hours of work at stake. That makes things easier...?

Allow me to break it down:

The problem is you made the content and it was ready to go before release.

Irrelevant. BioWare deliberately made content to sell as day 1 DLC, so it had to be "ready to go before release."

And yet you sold it separately instead of integrating it in the game with the rest of the content, which is effectively the same as just making the game and then cutting a piece off it and selling it separately.

It is not the same. At all. DLC does not exist on disc, it does not have to have the same lead time as a mass-manufactured disc. Discs need 2-6 weeks' lead time, a digital download does not. It does, however, still need platform certification, though.

Not that hard to understand, Nyoka, and it's been mentioned several times in this thread. ;)

#237
Sad Dragon

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Ninja Stan wrote...
It is not the same. At all. DLC does not exist on disc, it does not have to have the same lead time as a mass-manufactured disc. Discs need 2-6 weeks' lead time, a digital download does not. It does, however, still need platform certification, though.


As I recall it parts of From Ashes as well as other Bioware DLC have been 'on disc' (As I recall parts of Stolen Memories was also there before the DLC). Not the full content mind you but DLC Data all the same. While I'm not against DLC's or even Day 1 DLCs you can't help but think that looks shady. For the content to be on the disk it has to be done before the game goes gold.  Using the 2-6 weeks you get from printing the disc and certification is brilliant, but if it is on disk, it wasn't made during those 2-6 weeks but before then.

I have read that some of the reason parts of it is on disk is because the not everyone on the team will be working the final weeks even before going gold, and that parts of the DLC is put on disk to make the download smaller. Both makes sense but it sadly doesnt make the whole afair of DLC parts being on the disk any less iffy.

-TSD

#238
naughty99

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Giggles_Manically wrote...

Bioware has become frankly pathetic with its business ideals.

Image IPB


Come on, this infographic is pretty ridiculous. Most Day One DLC is stuff that doesn't interest me, and if it did, I'd simply wait to buy it on sale.

Perhaps the ME3 base game could have been improved a bit with the Extended Cut DLC, but that was provided free of charge. 

Certainly I never felt like I was missing a Prothean squadmate when I played ME3 and I never felt like DA2 was ruined because I didn't have Sebastian as a companion or some overpowered gear "Item Pack #2", etc.

Modifié par naughty99, 15 août 2012 - 09:09 .


#239
mousestalker

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Separately sold DLC is really only objectionable if it is necessary to play the game. No one is saying that is happening. Instead the subtext is an argument for larger portion size with some of the posters arguing for fries and coke with their burger and the company selling them as individual items.

Has anyone done a comparison of the length of games of yore with the games of today? I know that modern games are much larger in size than games ten years ago (Civilization came on floppies, for example). What about game time?

Modifié par mousestalker, 15 août 2012 - 12:31 .


#240
Skyhawk02

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One of the things if find most interesting about the article is that publisher's are so concerned with making players play games longer. They want people to spend hours playing multiplayer so that they are more likely to engage in microtransactions. Whereas to me personally, I would prefer shorter games with less filler content, I would prefer to have a shorter holistic experience rather than a longer disjointed one.

#241
Guest_Nyoka_*

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Ninja Stan wrote...
BioWare deliberately made content to sell as day 1 DLC, so it had to be "ready to go before release."

Yes, and that's the problem. That you made content ready to be played along with the game, but instead sold it separately. What stops you from packing all the ME2 squadmates side quests together and sell those as DLC too? After all, those were ready before release just like the From Ashes content was. Why not?

And yet you sold it separately instead of integrating it in the game with the rest of the content, which is effectively the same as just making the game and then cutting a piece off it and selling it separately.

It is not the same. At all. DLC does not exist on disc, it does not have to have the same lead time as a mass-manufactured disc. Discs need 2-6 weeks' lead time, a digital download does not. It does, however, still need platform certification, though.

That's not my problem. That's a problem you yourself got into when you decided to split the game in different pieces and sell each separately. If you had decided to make just a game, and leave the dlc for after the game is made, you wouldn't have two items with different lead times and all that. And if you worry about the content not being available on the disc, you could have offered it the same way you offered Zaeed and Firewalker. You've done it before, so "we couldn't put it on the disc on time so we need you to pay extra for it" doesn't really fly as an excuse.

You can hide behind technicalities you yourself created, but at the end of the day what you have for most people (basically everyone except the tiny minority that makes a statement out of not participating in such practices) is a game deliberatedly split in pieces to squeeze a little bit more money out of the customers. That's what "effectively" means: in effect, as a result.

It's cynical to portray such practice as just listening to the fans and offering what they want as soon as possible, when what you did is to cut corners and divert resources that could have resolved many of the flaws the game had and still has. You know better.

Modifié par Nyoka, 15 août 2012 - 12:12 .


#242
A Crusty Knight Of Colour

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Regardless of one's opinion of Day 1 DLC and microtransactions, what I'm still wondering is why would Fernando Melo even bother to comment about this issue from such an angle (it's all about business, mang) considering they've spent months trying to counter fan feedback with "artistic integrity".

Putting that aside, the "we do Day 1 DLC because they want to pay more for content when the game comes out. So you see, Day 1 DLC is what the gamers want!" mindset seems to reflect a lack of respect for the intelligence and patience of gamers.

(Which I wouldn't blame them for, but to say it publicly as if it were boast-worthy...)

This isn't exactly a secret considering the track record, but BioWare cannot into PR.

#243
Ridwan

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What happened to you Bioware? You used to be part of the untouchable crowd. Are you all sitting back there in your offices thinking we're all stupid, "entitled" and don't understand the hard work you do?

Hey buddy, let me tell you something, most people in the world work hard, ok? So don't pull that up on us. If you hate the fact that EA has you doing unreasonable deadlines, pushing you so far, that your children grow up with out you being there, then tough ****. You didn't have to be part of EA you know. You could always leave, form your own company, make games, instead of going "Just two more months and I'm done. Bonus here I come" "Oh they won't fire me, after all I'm the [insert lower position]".

Entitled? Please. If you actually listen to the morons at IGN arguments for your case, then you are even further removed from the gamers opinion than I thought was possible. YES some gamers opinion shouldn't be paid attention to. Like an idiot demanding a Wrex romance. Or the Normany becoming a transformer. Or everyone to be homosexual. And even the opinions of the majority shouldn't be followed to a T, I agree on that too. But you should at least pay attention to it, and see if it can be done in a way that would turn out well for the game. And calling us entitled for being outraged at something as important as an ending, shows you either didn't give one rats about the games story (which I doubt) or fell victim to a writer who wanted to make his mark on the gaming world. Well you sure did buddy, you left a nice turd on a game series everyone loves and a warning what happens when you let your own ego get in the way.

And last thing. We're not stupid. Don't even dare to think that. You think EA pays you? No. think again, we do. We even pay EA. It's our cash that can make you buy that fancy car you've always dreamed off, it's our love for games that means you have a job that you love to do (when you're aren't worked like a slave) and it's our money that decides whether or not we burn the gaming industry down as it is now, or leave it standing.

You guys want to go to war with us gamers, milking us for our cash. All I need to do is point at Guitar Hero. Don't **** with us man, don't. You'll get burnt.

Last thing, you should be kissing your asses each and every day for having such a passionate fan community that cares so much about your future, but so far, you keep pushing us. You've crossed the line, now every single step you take will be watched and scrutinized. Hell, some of us sound like we're heartbroken. You know what? A few really are. No longer is your company name amongst the other few greats that gamers can rely upon to always make a beautiful game.

You're better than than this, Bioware. That's what we all think, but you haven't done much to show it to us.


No, the extended cut doesn't count. That's like buying flowers. It's a gesture, but in the end it doesn't really mean anything, unless that gesture can be followed up.

Modifié par M25105, 15 août 2012 - 12:29 .


#244
Ridwan

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CrustyBot wrote...

Regardless of one's opinion of Day 1 DLC and microtransactions, what I'm still wondering is why would Fernando Melo even bother to comment about this issue from such an angle (it's all about business, mang) considering they've spent months trying to counter fan feedback with "artistic integrity".

Putting that aside, the "we do Day 1 DLC because they want to pay more for content when the game comes out. So you see, Day 1 DLC is what the gamers want!" mindset seems to reflect a lack of respect for the intelligence and patience of gamers.

(Which I wouldn't blame them for, but to say it publicly as if it were boast-worthy...)

This isn't exactly a secret considering the track record, but BioWare cannot into PR.


Didn't ya know, we're just walking wallets.

#245
Fast Jimmy

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CrustyBot wrote...

Regardless of one's opinion of Day 1 DLC and microtransactions, what I'm still wondering is why would Fernando Melo even bother to comment about this issue from such an angle (it's all about business, mang) considering they've spent months trying to counter fan feedback with "artistic integrity".


Melo was talking at a video game developers conference in Europe. The topic of his discussion was how other AAA developers could make fat wads of cash from DLC using the Bioware method. 

Funny... as much as Bioware reps love to say that this the way the industry is evolving and how in a few years, all companies will be doing than exact same thing, they do an AWFUL lot of marketing that model to other companies. Maybe because they realize how unpopular it looks to oter companies and how EA's financials are hardly the better for it...?

#246
Il Divo

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Fast Jimmy wrote...

Il Divo,

I agre and concede that you don't need all or any of the Companions in DA:O aside from Allistair or Morrigan. I also think the game would have been an utter failure without them. 


An utter failure? No, probably not. But it would have likely made itself less appealing, especially to consumers who find interacting with Bioware characters to be enjoyable.

But the point is that, for a consumer, any sale is a balance of cost/benefit. I'm guessing you consider DA:O to be worth the $60 you paid for it. We could play a game where I keep raising the cost of the game by a $1 until we eventually reach a point where you would determine that the game's cost doesn't justify your entertainment. Here, the process is happening in reverse: stable game cost, with a bit less content. But I doubt that if you asked a DA:O fan whether the absense of any one character would have ruined DA:O, they would say "yes".

We never get to see Orlais in DA:O. We never get to visit the Qunari homeland. We never get to see Antiva. Do you know why people are clamouring for these locations? The descriptions and vivid detail those companions gave us. For a series that says it is all about the world of Thedas rather than a set character, if they wanted to scrap people falling in love with said world, then, by all means, monetize every companion.


See above. Monetizing a companion is not monetizing every companion. Sure, Bioware could do the latter, but then they run a much greater risk of people re-analyzing how much the base game is worth to them. But removing any one character doesn't make or break a Bioware game for most people, even if we all have our favorites. Hell, if you want a point of comparison, even with these day 1 dlc issues, DA:O, ME2, DA2, and ME3 all still managed at least as many, if not more, companion characters to interact with than ME1 did. No dlc and no EA, ME1 managed less companion options than any other Bioware game before it (NwN aside).

My point is that people upset because of not getting a complete product is a smokescreen. There are a million industries where we gladly throw money without getting all the accessories/utility out of a product. The complaints should be entirely oriented around whether you think you would enjoy a product for a given price. Magically throwing on (or removing) an extra character or mission probably isn't going to change our perception of that.

Ex: I think G.I. Joe 2 looks like a waste of time. I am not going to pay to see it. My judgment of its worth does not require that I take into account the extra $3 for 3D, because the base product is so lacking that it's not worth the cost/benefit analysis.

No companion is worth fifteen dollars. It's just not accurate. People will PAY it, sure. But in a game with over half a dozen companions, dozens of locations and dungeons, nearly a hundred quests and plenty of story, no single mission is worth fifteen dollars, either. If you were to parse up the game like that, a companion would be worth MAYBE three bucks. A full fledged mission with new locations would be worth an extra three, maybe. Although I am working off a full retail price, which obviously is inflated for packaging and retail cuts, which it wouldn't be for a downloaded segment.


A companion (much like a game) is worth whatever people are willing to pay, no more, no less. Personally, I would have thrown down $20 for Javik. I would have done the same in hindsight for any of the DA:O companions, given how much I like them. DA2 characters? Not so much.

Hell, a few posts ago, you admitted that you would pay $100 for a quality game. If DA:O had embraced a day 1 dlc approach for Shale, even at $10-15, that puts you lower than you would have paid for the entire game, everything included.

Bioware has, in my opinion, not made a good base game since DA:O. ME2 was fun, but it had many parts that left a sour taste in my mouth that caused me to not even think about playing more than once, as opposed to ME1, which I played over half a dozen times. DA2 was a much less critically acclaimed game and I believe it critics speak for themselves. And the same goes for ME3.


And this illustrates the core problem: it's not day 1 dlc. You don't like the games Bioware is making, which (for the consumer) should be the real issue. Hell, I hated ME1 with a burning passion and looking back would not have paid the $60 I did at launch. But Bioware having day 1 dlc doesn't magically change the quality/crappiness of ME1 any more than it changes how you feel about their later products. Of the ones you listed, not a one suffer from being unable to understand the narrative or awkward character introductions.

Sebastian is integrated with the same approach as the rest of the DA2 cast (a side mission), ME2's Kasumi and Zaeed benefitted from the recruitment style approach of ME2, and while Javik is interesting as hell to interact with, he offers nothing to stopping the Reaper threat, beyond combat advice.

Modifié par Il Divo, 15 août 2012 - 01:52 .


#247
RedArmyShogun

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Ah well CNC is the first lose to this "new model" Anyone care to place bets on DA:3 being next and as a MMO?

#248
Ravensword

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Confess-A-Bear wrote...

A man like that has got a great big hole, right in the middle of him. He can never kill enough, or steal enough, or inflict enough pain to ever fill it. 

A man like that wants to die. Image IPB


It would appear that the strain was more than he could bear.

Modifié par Ravensword, 15 août 2012 - 03:05 .


#249
Addai

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CrustyBot wrote...

Regardless of one's opinion of Day 1 DLC and microtransactions, what I'm still wondering is why would Fernando Melo even bother to comment about this issue from such an angle (it's all about business, mang) considering they've spent months trying to counter fan feedback with "artistic integrity".

He was a speaker in the business and marketing track at GDC.  I looked over the topics and speakers last night, looks like this was Bioware's only contribution to the conference.  Isn't that sad.

#250
RedArmyShogun

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Ravensword wrote...

Confess-A-Bear wrote...

A man like that has got a great big hole, right in the middle of him. He can never kill enough, or steal enough, or inflict enough pain to ever fill it. 

A man like that wants to die. Image IPB


It would appear that the strain was more than he could bear.



Tombstone ftw.