Aller au contenu

Photo

Bioware on how to monetise players *article*


  • Veuillez vous connecter pour répondre
434 réponses à ce sujet

#251
Fast Jimmy

Fast Jimmy
  • Members
  • 17 939 messages
Il Divo,

I hate picking apart your posts without quoting, but I'm only able to do this from my phone the past few days, so bear with me.

I WOULD gladly pay $100 for DAO. Because I think it was a quality game, it has tons f replayabilty and it's five year dev cycle shows. I wouldn't begrudge Bioware putting out DLC for it in addition to my $100 price if it wasn't released day one (although if they could take the lead that CDProject did and give all free DLC, that would be even sweeter).

It's not the price that matters. I think they should be paid for their work. I think they should take their time to include the most content at launch and ensure it is of the highest quality. However, price is not what prevents me from ever buying DLC. It's the idea that people are analyzing the game and looking at what could be the most valuable content from a game that could be cut without harming the overall experience and then charging extra for it.

I don't like the concept of a writer, artist or developer thinking about how to custom make their art to scam more money out of people. I'd rather they focus on making a quality product, take all the time they need, keep their audience in mind first and foremost and then take that product to market. The fact that a new Crash Bandicoo game and DA:O are both released at the same price is completely UNcapitalistic. You can blame publishers like EA and retail chains like Gamestop, who are both seriously hurting right now.

If a game was priced for its cost to make and it's real value, game prices would be wildly fluctuating. Instead, they are all the exact same, with a variance of 5-10%.

Divo, you keep making comparisons to other markets, but no other market is like the VG industry except the movie industry. And both are in the toilet right now because of it. They both need variant pricing models to survive. Pricing a garbage movie-marketing video game and a GOTY title like DA:O anywhere NEAR the same price, that is not capitalism. It's idiocy.

There are games which should be $20. There are games which should be $100. If it costs that much more to make a game that should be priced at $100 because of dev time and resources, then CHARGE us for that right up front. Don't think of ways to manipulate people's emotions to get that much revenue out of us in the end. And don't force multiplayer in an attempt to have people log on and engage in pointless microtransactions. That, too, is cheap and underhanded.

Modifié par Fast Jimmy, 15 août 2012 - 03:32 .


#252
Elhanan

Elhanan
  • Members
  • 18 505 messages

Addai67 wrote...

He was a speaker in the business and marketing track at GDC.  I looked over the topics and speakers last night, looks like this was Bioware's only contribution to the conference.  Isn't that sad.


No; not really esp given locations:

http://www.gamasutra..._weeks_show.php


http://www.gamasutra...unity_talks.php

Modifié par Elhanan, 15 août 2012 - 03:34 .


#253
Brockololly

Brockololly
  • Members
  • 9 032 messages

hoorayforicecream wrote...
What we are seeing is a drop in retailer console game sales overall, not just select big budget affairs. Smaller games are also selling fewer copies year over year. It's one thing if select big budget blockbusters were not selling well, but when the overall number of movie tickets sold goes down year over year, it is indicative that something is wrong with the entire industry and not with just a single studio or genre. When the entire market is depressed and continues to lose sales overall, it is an indicator that it is the market itself that is ailing.


I don't disagree that retail console game sales are stagnant, but that can be tied to many things which you already mentioned- increased development costs, an overly long console generation or a mediocre economy.

I think its more pronounced with big budget AAA games though. In part because you have games needing to sell millions and millions of copies to be considered a success. EA has made mention that Dead Space 3 needs to sell in the neighborhood of 5 million copies to be considered a success. I think a big part of the problem is that developers, especially of big budget games, are wildly inefficient in how they spend their money. They're incredibly wasteful.

And I don't know that all smaller games are struggling either. First, most smaller or indie games don't have any retail presence. And when you look at how Steam sales end up affecting sales of smaller games and games that have been out a while, they don't seem to be struggling. Bastion's debut on Steam was only its fifth best day in sales, behind other promotions.

Retail gaming might be struggling but I don't think that equates to gaming in general struggling.

#254
BringSomeGoodCo-opRPGs

BringSomeGoodCo-opRPGs
  • Members
  • 78 messages

EnvyTB075 wrote...

Games are too cheap? Games are too cheap?

Come live in Australia and see just how well off the US is compared to the rest of the world in just about anything. I am NOT going to spend $120AU per game (rough equivalent) just because you have some twisted idea of "if it costs more, its better".

And can someone please explain how making a smaller game requires spending more money? I mean ME3 is undoubtedly a smaller game overall than ME2 was, yet it cost more money to develop? How?


Fair points,I would say.

#255
KDD-0063

KDD-0063
  • Members
  • 544 messages
Now, here are basically two kinds of defense for this day 1 DLC practice (that I've seen in this thread):

First is "it's made after the game is finished."
Nope. This is a pathetic excuse. Game was unfinished; signs of game being rushed are everywhere. Development time before the game launches should be invested into polishing the $60 game we get, not give players a half-product, and think about new content that can be used to charge the players for more money.
This excuse could only work if the game is well polished (even after that it is still questionable), but ME3 isn't.

--------------------------------------------
Second is game devs deserve more money because of living cost/dev cost whatever is increasing, or in order to hold share holder's attention. Without changing the number on the price tag.
What does that mean?

First this 'defense' admits that the content is ripped from the game (or basically says ripping content from the game is acceptable).

Secondly, in order to achieve the above, either

a) the number of people who buy the game needs to be more than the number of people who's going to enjoy the game

or B) people need to pay more money than on the price tag of a game.

In a word, players deserve to get less value than what they pay for.

And this defense basically says, people should accept and put up with this kind of practice.
And someone says, if you don't want to accept, you need to shut up.

Yeah...right.

Modifié par KDD-0063, 15 août 2012 - 05:57 .


#256
Addai

Addai
  • Members
  • 25 850 messages

Elhanan wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

He was a speaker in the business and marketing track at GDC.  I looked over the topics and speakers last night, looks like this was Bioware's only contribution to the conference.  Isn't that sad.


No; not really esp given locations:

Your point?  The MMO one is in Austin, not this conference.

My point is that Bioware is not innovating anything except how to bilk customers with half-baked effort.

#257
naughty99

naughty99
  • Members
  • 5 801 messages

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Il Divo,

I hate picking apart your posts without quoting, but I'm only able to do this from my phone the past few days, so bear with me.

I WOULD gladly pay $100 for DAO. Because I think it was a quality game, it has tons f replayabilty and it's five year dev cycle shows. I wouldn't begrudge Bioware putting out DLC for it in addition to my $100 price if it wasn't released day one (although if they could take the lead that CDProject did and give all free DLC, that would be even sweeter).

It's not the price that matters. I think they should be paid for their work. I think they should take their time to include the most content at launch and ensure it is of the highest quality. However, price is not what prevents me from ever buying DLC. It's the idea that people are analyzing the game and looking at what could be the most valuable content from a game that could be cut without harming the overall experience and then charging extra for it.

I don't like the concept of a writer, artist or developer thinking about how to custom make their art to scam more money out of people. I'd rather they focus on making a quality product, take all the time they need, keep their audience in mind first and foremost and then take that product to market. The fact that a new Crash Bandicoo game and DA:O are both released at the same price is completely UNcapitalistic. You can blame publishers like EA and retail chains like Gamestop, who are both seriously hurting right now.

If a game was priced for its cost to make and it's real value, game prices would be wildly fluctuating. Instead, they are all the exact same, with a variance of 5-10%.

Divo, you keep making comparisons to other markets, but no other market is like the VG industry except the movie industry. And both are in the toilet right now because of it. They both need variant pricing models to survive. Pricing a garbage movie-marketing video game and a GOTY title like DA:O anywhere NEAR the same price, that is not capitalism. It's idiocy.

There are games which should be $20. There are games which should be $100. If it costs that much more to make a game that should be priced at $100 because of dev time and resources, then CHARGE us for that right up front. Don't think of ways to manipulate people's emotions to get that much revenue out of us in the end. And don't force multiplayer in an attempt to have people log on and engage in pointless microtransactions. That, too, is cheap and underhanded.


There are often collector's editions available, but other than those crazy train simulator games, I think pricing any game at $100 would be suicide, resulting in much less revenue for the publisher.

When you say you feel there are games which should be $20, I agree to the extent that the value to you personally is $20. In my case, there are many games I would only buy when they are on sale for $5 or 10, or even $1 - 2. I don't feel the price "should be X," that's simply what I'm willing to pay based on my evaluation of the game.

And if you feel the value of a particular game is $20, there is nothing wrong with simply waiting until it is on sale for $20.

If you feel the value of DA:O was $100, I'd agree that it was a great game. Personally I think I spent around $80 or so, as I bought several DLC separately from the EADM store. But you must keep in mind the huge difference in dev time for this game. Bioware had 6 years to flesh out the environments and quests, and keep iterating the game to get the gameplay just right, compared to something in the range of 18 months for DA2 and I don't think they had much longer for ME3.

If a game was priced for its cost to make and it's real value, game prices would be wildly fluctuating. Instead, they are all the exact same, with a variance of 5-10%.  


I'd have to disagree on this. Recently purchased several games as low as $2.49 - 4.99 during the Steam Summer Sale that originally retailed for $50-$60.

And don't force multiplayer in an attempt to have people log on and engage in pointless microtransactions. That, too, is cheap and underhanded.  


I actually think they did a great job the way microtransactions were incorporated in ME3. I played quite a bit, had fun and never felt tempted in the slightest to buy any virtual items. 

Most games that generate a lot of revenue from micro transactions have certain gameplay loops that entice a subset of players to buy virtual items, and usually these games are focused on loot and tremendously boring. In the case of ME3, it was still a lot of fun without buying any item packs.

Modifié par naughty99, 16 août 2012 - 01:19 .


#258
Elhanan

Elhanan
  • Members
  • 18 505 messages

Addai67 wrote...

Your point?  The MMO one is in Austin, not this conference.

My point is that Bioware is not innovating anything except how to bilk customers with half-baked effort.


My point is that the first link - the one being quoted from earlier - is the GDC Europe meeting, and a single rep may have only been needed there. The second is from the coming meet at Austin, which is MMO central as I understand, and will have more representation is it located at a main site for Bioware.

Sorry you feel deceived, but there are others with differing opinions on these games. And if you believe strongly in this, remaining on their forums seems rather illogical.

#259
Addai

Addai
  • Members
  • 25 850 messages
The remark on lack of innovation isn't limited solely to the GDC.  I just think it's reflective.

And I remain on the forums because of the people I can occasionally talk to about games and other topics- not that I need to explain myself to you.

Modifié par Addai67, 15 août 2012 - 09:11 .


#260
mousestalker

mousestalker
  • Members
  • 16 945 messages
To return to the main point. I encourage Bioware to monetize my gaming habits. I buy after release and after reading and hearing about a game. I like roleplay and character development. A good story and logical character choices are good things. Create a game with those elements and I will probably buy it. If it has DLC with equally good qualitites, then they are on the purchase list as well.

Monetize away! Pull it off and you will have gobs of my money and I will have enjoyable computer entertainment.

Modifié par mousestalker, 16 août 2012 - 12:31 .


#261
Morroian

Morroian
  • Members
  • 6 396 messages

CrustyBot wrote...

Regardless of one's opinion of Day 1 DLC and microtransactions, what I'm still wondering is why would Fernando Melo even bother to comment about this issue from such an angle (it's all about business, mang) considering they've spent months trying to counter fan feedback with "artistic integrity".

Putting that aside, the "we do Day 1 DLC because they want to pay more for content when the game comes out. So you see, Day 1 DLC is what the gamers want!" mindset seems to reflect a lack of respect for the intelligence and patience of gamers.

(Which I wouldn't blame them for, but to say it publicly as if it were boast-worthy...)

This isn't exactly a secret considering the track record, but BioWare cannot into PR.


To me it smacks of them putting their cards on the table. This is how we operate now. 

Modifié par Morroian, 15 août 2012 - 10:35 .


#262
Elhanan

Elhanan
  • Members
  • 18 505 messages

Addai67 wrote...

The remark on lack of innovation isn't limited solely to the GDC.  I just think it's reflective.

And I remain on the forums because of the people I can occasionally talk to about games and other topics- not that I need to explain myself to you.


I quite realize that others believe there is a lack of innovation and even deception on the part of our hosts, and that prevents them from purchasing Bioware games. But it obviously is not severe enough discomfort to warrant a ban of their forums; some simply use them to frequently bash products and service more than friendly discussions. 

No explanation needed.

#263
Addai

Addai
  • Members
  • 25 850 messages

Elhanan wrote...
I quite realize that others believe there is a lack of innovation and even deception on the part of our hosts, and that prevents them from purchasing Bioware games. But it obviously is not severe enough discomfort to warrant a ban of their forums; some simply use them to frequently bash products and service more than friendly discussions. 

Yep, obviously not.

Modifié par Addai67, 16 août 2012 - 03:09 .


#264
slimgrin

slimgrin
  • Members
  • 12 479 messages

Elhanan wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

Your point?  The MMO one is in Austin, not this conference.

My point is that Bioware is not innovating anything except how to bilk customers with half-baked effort.


My point is that the first link - the one being quoted from earlier - is the GDC Europe meeting, and a single rep may have only been needed there. The second is from the coming meet at Austin, which is MMO central as I understand, and will have more representation is it located at a main site for Bioware.

Sorry you feel deceived, but there are others with differing opinions on these games. And if you believe strongly in this, remaining on their forums seems rather illogical.


Are you Spock?

#265
Rockworm503

Rockworm503
  • Members
  • 7 519 messages

Elhanan wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

Your point?  The MMO one is in Austin, not this conference.

My point is that Bioware is not innovating anything except how to bilk customers with half-baked effort.


My point is that the first link - the one being quoted from earlier - is the GDC Europe meeting, and a single rep may have only been needed there. The second is from the coming meet at Austin, which is MMO central as I understand, and will have more representation is it located at a main site for Bioware.

Sorry you feel deceived, but there are others with differing opinions on these games. And if you believe strongly in this, remaining on their forums seems rather illogical.


Can you never speak for yourself?  You always say others don't feel the same.
You might as well say what you really think.  You just want these boards to be nothing but a group of circle jerks who only agree with you.

#266
Ravensword

Ravensword
  • Members
  • 6 185 messages

mousestalker wrote...

To return to the main point. I encourage Bioware to monetize my gaming habits. I buy after release and after reading and hearing about a game. I like roleplay and character development. A good story and logical character choices are good things. Create a game with those elements and I will probably buy it. If it has DLC with equally good qualitites, then they are on the purchase list as well.

Monetize away! Pull it off and you will have gobs of my money and I will have enjoyable computer entertainment.


Well, here's someone w/ more money than they know what to do w/ it.

#267
Guest_wiggles_*

Guest_wiggles_*
  • Guests

mousestalker wrote...

To return to the main point. I encourage Bioware to monetize my gaming habits. I buy after release and after reading and hearing about a game. I like roleplay and character development. A good story and logical character choices are good things. Create a game with those elements and I will probably buy it.

Then why do you play Bioware games?

#268
Laser Beam

Laser Beam
  • Members
  • 284 messages

The Mad Hanar wrote...

The video game industry is dying...and you guys are surprised that video game companies are nickel and diming us?

Wow.


Dying? What a joke.

#269
Guest_greengoron89_*

Guest_greengoron89_*
  • Guests
LOL. The industry is "dying" according to EA and some of these other self-anointed "experts" - and it certainly provides a convenient excuse to continually gouge the consumer with all of these bleeding microtransactions.

#270
Ninja Stan

Ninja Stan
  • Members
  • 5 238 messages

Sad Dragon wrote...

As I recall it parts of From Ashes as well as other Bioware DLC have been 'on disc' (As I recall parts of Stolen Memories was also there before the DLC). Not the full content mind you but DLC Data all the same. While I'm not against DLC's or even Day 1 DLCs you can't help but think that looks shady. For the content to be on the disk it has to be done before the game goes gold.  Using the 2-6 weeks you get from printing the disc and certification is brilliant, but if it is on disk, it wasn't made during those 2-6 weeks but before then.

Hooks for DLC are indeed on disc, to make it easier to integrate post-release DLC. It is significantly less work to have a DLC character work throughout the whole game if you have have places where that character's content can hook into the base game. For example, if you have planned it so Javik has a short dialogue with Leonard Batarian on Blunderbuss Station, you can have the dialogue hooks for Javik already embedded within Leonard Batarian's dialogue file. Making future work easier may look shady, but that's probably because few of the people screaming conspiracy have ever done such work and aren't familiar with how this stuff is done.

Planning for content to appear later does not mean that it can or should go in the base game, or that it was ready to go when the base game was finalized to disc. Some content can indeed "hide" in the base game, unactivated, until the DLC attaches to it like a Voltron lion arm.

I have read that some of the reason parts of it is on disk is because the not everyone on the team will be working the final weeks even before going gold, and that parts of the DLC is put on disk to make the download smaller. Both makes sense but it sadly doesnt make the whole afair of DLC parts being on the disk any less iffy.

It doesn't? Even when you know the reasons why it was probably done that way, which involve, as I mentioned aboe, making their future work easier?

Game development doesn't stop at content lockdown these days. How do you think day-zero patches get developed? After content lock, developers can still work on the game and fix issues all the way up to patch lockdown and certification, in order to have that patch available as soon as the game hits shelves. Those not working on fixes can be working on the next DLC to be released or future DLC planning or moved to a different project or team or finally get their vacation.

What is it about any of that, that makes it "iffy"? The alternative is to not have any hooks on disc and make DLC characters either completely separate, with as few interactions with base game characters as possible, or require way more work in order to cram the character into existing content... somehow. It's like the difference between making Devastator with Scrapper, Hook, Bonecrusher, Scavenger, Long Haul, and Mixmaster (the Constructicons), and making Devastator with Scrapper, Hook, Bonecrusher, Air Riad of the Aerialbots, Voltron's Red Lion, and a G.I. Joe. You can do it, but it might involve a knife and some glue, and will definitely require more time and effort. :)

#271
Ninja Stan

Ninja Stan
  • Members
  • 5 238 messages

Rockworm503 wrote...

Can you never speak for yourself?  You always say others don't feel the same.
You might as well say what you really think.  You just want these boards to be nothing but a group of circle jerks who only agree with you.

Given that "that's just your opinion, man" is a common method of dismissing arguments on here, one would assume that Elhanan is including himself in those statements of opinion regarding "others."

And really, Rockworm503, don't we all state our opinions in the hopes of swaying others to our "side"? That's what an argument is, after all. Just because you are taking a contrary stance doesn't mean you don't also want people to agree with you. So cut Elhanan a little bit of slack, please, or I might start taking a greater interest in what you want of your audience when you post.

#272
Ninja Stan

Ninja Stan
  • Members
  • 5 238 messages

KDD-0063 wrote...

Now, here are basically two kinds of defense for this day 1 DLC practice (that I've seen in this thread):

First is "it's made after the game is finished."
Nope. This is a pathetic excuse. Game was unfinished; signs of game being rushed are everywhere. Development time before the game launches should be invested into polishing the $60 game we get, not give players a half-product, and think about new content that can be used to charge the players for more money.
This excuse could only work if the game is well polished (even after that it is still questionable), but ME3 isn't.

I think that the developers themselves should determine how to prioritize their time. And I doubt you'd find a single developer who wouldn't tell you that they would love to have had more time to work on the game. Deadlines are, unfortunately, a way of life in most any industry. But being "rushed" seems to be a criticism only of the videogame industry. In all the criticism of the Ballistic: Ecks vs. Sever film that I'd ever read, not once did I read "it was rushed" as a reason given for why the film was bad. Even given more time, a developer may not be working on what you, specifically, want them to work on. More time does not necessarily mean the game will be more to your liking, and some other person might still cry "rushed!" It is ultimately a non-helpful critique, since the amount of time needed to make the game "good" will be entirely subjective.

Second is game devs deserve more money because of living cost/dev cost whatever is increasing, or in order to hold share holder's attention. Without changing the number on the price tag.
What does that mean?

I think you're conflating several different defenses here. Let's take the shareholders out of the equation. Most people only have a rudimentary understanding of corporate structure, and much of that knowledge is based on portrayals of corporate board rooms in media. Generally speaking, shareholders aren't following a company's day-to-day operations and have no direct control over it. EA shareholders, for example, have no direct say in how BioWare develops a game or what content to put in it, no direct say in schedules, retail pricing, or even how much money a developer makes at the company. So no, using the shareholders as an excuse or blaming them for any game content is ridiculous.

No one actually cares how much money an individual developer makes. It's none of anyone else's business, and his salary is largely unaffected by the retail price of a game, the amount of content it contains, or how well it sells. The only time his salary might be affected is if he is entitled to performances based on the game's sales, the studio's performance as compared to estimates, or the company's performance as compared to estimates. When I worked in retail management, for example, we got bonuses based on how much our sales numbers exceeded our assigned quota numbers. So an individual developer's salaray is irrelevant to this discussion.

Thirdly, I haven't heard of anyone using "devs deserve more money" as a reason for purchasing DLC. People buy DLC because they love the base game and want more content for it, in order to continue playing in the world they love, with the characters they love, or playing the gameplay they love. Some are completionists who want to have all the things. DLC is priced in such a way as to entice game-lovers to buy this content. Lots of folks seem to really like the old "game + big expansion much later on" model. DLC and microtransactions are essentially "game + smaller expansions really fast" models, delivering the content they want faster and with more selection.

And finally, when publishers sell a game, they have sales projections that detail how many copies of the game they want to sell. This numbers takes into account the price of the game, its target market, and will include how many copies the game is likely to sell in different markets. In this regard, videogames are like movies, which have a fixed admission price regardless of the length or quality of the film.

First this 'defense' admits that the content is ripped from the game (or basically says ripping content from the game is acceptable).

You have not even tried to link your argument to this conclusion with evidence or a chain of logic.

Secondly, in order to achieve the above, either

a) the number of people who buy the game needs to be more than the number of people who's going to enjoy the game

or B) people need to pay more money than on the price tag of a game.

No, and no. The first is a statement of fact. The number of people who enjoy the game will always be less than the total number of copies sold, since not everyone is going to like the game. And the second situation has already been taken into account when the people at the publisher with the calculators make their sales projections. I'm not surprised you aren't familiar with that side of the business, since those numbers are rarely made public.

In a word, players deserve to get less value than what they pay for.

And this defense basically says, people should accept and put up with this kind of practice.
And someone says, if you don't want to accept, you need to shut up.

Yeah...right.

No, you are always free to choose to not buy the game. That is the best way to "protest" a game. Well, that and providing constructive feedback tot he developer. Misinformation, disinformation, sensationalist hyperbole, and demonstrating you don't actually know how the system works is, in my opinion, a terrible way to convince someone to agree with your viewpoint.

#273
mousestalker

mousestalker
  • Members
  • 16 945 messages

Ravensword wrote...

mousestalker wrote...

To return to the main point. I encourage Bioware to monetize my gaming habits. I buy after release and after reading and hearing about a game. I like roleplay and character development. A good story and logical character choices are good things. Create a game with those elements and I will probably buy it. If it has DLC with equally good qualitites, then they are on the purchase list as well.

Monetize away! Pull it off and you will have gobs of my money and I will have enjoyable computer entertainment.


Well, here's someone w/ more money than they know what to do w/ it.


I think you missed my point. Let Bioware make games and game related products that they believe will earn them money. It's up to us as purchasers of their wares to reward them for products we like by buying them and punish them for products we do not like by not buying them. Supplying feedback in terms of stating preferences may or may not help them make products we like. Buying (or not buying) them will absolutely help them in that way.

If they price a product too high, then all we have to do is do without it until they lower the price. If that never happens, then they drink from the bitter cup of lost sales.

I'm quite frugal. I have many games, all of which were bought legally and very very few of which were purchased for full retail. In fact, I can think of only two: Dragon Age: Awakening and Dragon Age 2. The latter has reinforced my determination to never ever pay full price again.

:wizard:

Modifié par mousestalker, 16 août 2012 - 12:10 .


#274
Addai

Addai
  • Members
  • 25 850 messages

Ninja Stan wrote...
What is it about any of that, that makes it "iffy"? The alternative is to not have any hooks on disc and make DLC characters either completely separate, with as few interactions with base game characters as possible, or require way more work in order to cram the character into existing content... somehow.

Make a complete game or don't.

Example Fallout New Vegas.  It had hooks for DLC built in, but those DLC added whole new areas, enlarging the story rather than completing it and more than giving us our money's worth.  Sebastian is ripped out of DA2, and the story... ok, the story still doesn't make a lot of sense, but with his content it at least is more coherent than without it.  Since the base game itself was so stripped down and shoddy, forcing people to pay extra or pre-order months in advance to have a complete story is not just iffy, it sucks big time.

I know Bioware understands this difference and is just playing dumb for marketing purposes, or to dupe the shareholders.  How long do you expect that is going to work?

#275
Sad Dragon

Sad Dragon
  • Members
  • 560 messages

Ninja Stan wrote...

Sad Dragon wrote...

As I
recall it parts of From Ashes as well as other Bioware DLC have been
'on disc' (As I recall parts of Stolen Memories was also there before
the DLC). Not the full content mind you but DLC Data all the same.
While I'm not against DLC's or even Day 1 DLCs you can't help but think
that looks shady. For the content to be on the disk it has to be done
before the game goes gold.  Using the 2-6 weeks you get from printing
the disc and certification is brilliant, but if it is on disk, it wasn't
made during those 2-6 weeks but before then.

Hooks for
DLC are indeed on disc, to make it easier to integrate post-release DLC.
It is significantly less work to have a DLC character work throughout
the whole game if you have have places where that character's content
can hook into the base game. For example, if you have planned it so
Javik has a short dialogue with Leonard Batarian on Blunderbuss Station,
you can have the dialogue hooks for Javik already embedded within
Leonard Batarian's dialogue file. Making future work easier may look
shady, but that's probably because few of the people screaming
conspiracy have ever done such work and aren't familiar with how this
stuff is done.

Planning for content to appear later does not
mean that it can or should go in the base game, or that it was ready to
go when the base game was finalized to disc. Some content can indeed
"hide" in the base game, unactivated, until the DLC attaches to it like a
Voltron lion arm.

I have read that some of the reason
parts of it is on disk is because the not everyone on the team will be
working the final weeks even before going gold, and that parts of the
DLC is put on disk to make the download smaller. Both makes sense but it
sadly doesnt make the whole afair of DLC parts being on the disk any
less iffy.

It doesn't? Even when you know the reasons why
it was probably done that way, which involve, as I mentioned aboe,
making their future work easier?

Game development doesn't stop at
content lockdown these days. How do you think day-zero patches get
developed? After content lock, developers can still work on the game and
fix issues all the way up to patch lockdown and certification, in order
to have that patch available as soon as the game hits shelves. Those
not working on fixes can be working on the next DLC to be released or
future DLC planning or moved to a different project or team or finally
get their vacation.

What is it about any of that, that makes it
"iffy"? The alternative is to not have any hooks on disc and make DLC
characters either completely separate, with as few interactions with
base game characters as possible, or require way more work in order to
cram the character into existing content... somehow. It's like the
difference between making Devastator with Scrapper, Hook, Bonecrusher,
Scavenger, Long Haul, and Mixmaster (the Constructicons), and making
Devastator with Scrapper, Hook, Bonecrusher, Air Riad of the Aerialbots,
Voltron's Red Lion, and a G.I. Joe. You can do it, but it might involve
a knife and some glue, and will definitely require more time and
effort. :)


Iffy might have been the wrong word but I think you got the girst of what I was trying to say -- even if it could have been worded better.

There are many ways to make future work easier to intigrate into a product. For dialogue you could have a more modular system that would easaly let you swap out one conversation with another one. This requires more work on the engine side of thing of course, but it would also make it easy to fix and swap things out -- and would even let you prototype ingame faster. 

The reason I said that it still looked Iffy (though I meant to say could look iffy) is that DLC content developed before going gold would imply that those people have nothing to polish. In some cases this is true. You dont need 20 gfx artists to polish the minor problems of a prop or character model. This is especially true of voice work as well... the actors don't really do anything else.

Where we get into grey terretory is when we see it as added content on disk that is not part of the main game. The resources spent on adding the content to disk could have been spent elsewhere. This really cant be argued with in terms of content adding to disk, but it would be ignoring the content lockdown.

The upside to adding DLC content after a lockdown is that it it is not something that will be 'in the game'. You dont have to test it to make sure everything is working on the same level as you would if you were to add more plot content into the game. This is however never discussed but rather we see developers making -- in my honest opinion -- less than smart statements.

"The Content was never part of the game" <-- This is a true statment, depending on how you look at it. I say it is a true statement but also a less than smart statement to make. Though I would also say that no matter what you say in a situation when such a statement is being said is probably not going to go over too good. As you say, not everyone is familiar with the resons, and not everyone agrees with the resons either. I do however, despite the last bit, think that the gamer-developer relationship would be a better one if more gamers knew something about how games are made -- but alas, not all gamers care.

As for me personally I am not sure what I think about Day 1 DLC. As an incentive to buy the game new I have no trouble with it. As a complete standalone thing I am not as fond of the idea -- expecially when I have already payed between 90-150 usd for the game. If I pay that much for the game I want day 1 DLCs to be included. Good news is, for 150 usd they are included ... most of the time (One perk of buying Collectors Editions). Though this is not always the case which honestly make the company in question feel greedy.

Better end this before i start talking in circles more than it already feels like I am ^^;;;

So let me end with this:
Why isnt there a Blunderbuss Station in Mass Effect!?
Also: I bow to your epic nerd comparison using both Voltron and Devestator, much respect :)

EDIT: Added full quote for more context -- as I couldnt find any good way to cut it down ^^;

-TSD

Modifié par Sad Dragon, 16 août 2012 - 07:10 .