116 réponses à ce sujet

[Alex475]

That Zevran dude is a bastard, I tried to be nice giving him a second chance but he still sided with the that guy who want's to kill me. For now on I'll kill him on every playthrough even knowing I'll never get the trophy. I died a lot on that fight because of that little bastard even playing on easy and it was annoying as hell.

[robertthebard]

Sabriana wrote...

I only play female PCs. Not because I hate men, far, far from it. It just doesn't feel right playing as a male Char. It feels unreal, flat. Naturally, I've not played the Male PC/Zevran angle.

I am also very hetero and not in the least bit interested in same sex relationships. Not because of homophobia, but because it doesn't feel like fun, more like a chore. That's what it felt like when my girl tried to get a romance going with Lelianna. It was no fun, it felt forced, and I quit midway to choose Zevran (as usual). Even though it was Zevran who ratted me out to Lelianna initially, lol.

However, Lelianna, after initial sadness, was ok with my PC's choice, and became a friend. Is that not so with Zevran? I mean, in RL with my circle of friends and acquaintances, which include LGB and even a T, saying 'no' has always been good enough.

Edited because spelling is an art

It is entirely possible to keep Zevran in the party, even if you break up with him for somebody else.  I think the biggest problem people run in to is that they either don't talk to him in camp, or don't take him out of camp, and then get all shocked because he turns.  I have never even had him remain neutral against the Crows the second time, he alwways makes me reform my party so he can help me kill the guy.  In one play through, his approval couldn't have been much more than 25, and I'd even lost 2 points because I said something that maybe wasn't insulting but wasn't supportive either.  not sure.  Sparing his life is all good and all, but if you just leave him neutral in the camp, and don't try to talk to him a bit, don't be surprised if he gets a better offer and takes it.

[Sabriana]

@ Alex475: I don't understand that at all. Even if he's neutral he doesn't betray the PC. Sure, he doesn't participate in the fight, but he doesn't switch sides.



@ robertthebard: True enough, just dumping any of your companions into the camp and not bothering about them will not net you any loyalty and/or support. Just like in RL. Most of the time, if you ignore people, the tend to ignore you right back.

[Original182]

robertthebard wrote...
It is entirely possible to keep Zevran in the party, even if you break up with him for somebody else.  I think the biggest problem people run in to is that they either don't talk to him in camp, or don't take him out of camp, and then get all shocked because he turns.  I have never even had him remain neutral against the Crows the second time, he alwways makes me reform my party so he can help me kill the guy.  In one play through, his approval couldn't have been much more than 25, and I'd even lost 2 points because I said something that maybe wasn't insulting but wasn't supportive either.  not sure.  Sparing his life is all good and all, but if you just leave him neutral in the camp, and don't try to talk to him a bit, don't be surprised if he gets a better offer and takes it.

People have every right to be angry at Zevran for turning on him. He swore an oath to serve the Grey Warden until he/she chooses to release him from duty. The PC let him live to give him a 2nd chance, but instead of trying to redeem himself, he backstabs the PC again.

The only time Zevran is justified in turning on you, is if as the PC you said something rude and hurtful to Zevran, or treated him badly. From the posts in here, I'm sure they didn't do anything of that sort. They just left him alone.

By default he should already be loyal to you based on the PC giving him a 2nd chance.

Edit: People are justified in killing Zevran in future games, simply based on the fact that he cannot be trusted.

But, some people don't know that you can make him NOT turn on you. That's the nice part of the game. When it is possible to change an outcome you never thought possible, you are pleasantly surprised.

Modifié par Original182, 22 décembre 2009 - 02:59 .

[Creature 1]

Sabriana wrote...
@ Alex475: I don't understand that at all. Even if he's neutral he doesn't betray the PC. Sure, he doesn't participate in the fight, but he doesn't switch sides.

If he doesn't like you enough he will join Taliesin and try to kill you.  Which does make sense, you're obviously taking a "what's in it for me" approach towards him, so why shouldn't he towards you?  For his survival the best thing at that point is to try to get back in with the Crows. 

At that point my mage was friendly with him, but apparently not enough.  He took off right before the fight, but when I accused him in camp of leaving me to face Taliesin alone, he said no, he'd left Taliesin to face me.  I forgave him.  With my rogue, though, there was no question Taliesin had to die. 

The cutscene where Zevran decides to opt out of that battle was more extended.  If he decides to fight with you he just refuses to join Taliesin and you go right into the battle. 

[Squiggles1334]

First time through that fight, Zevran kinda frustrated me because out of loyalty and friendship he insisted on occupying a precious slot in my 4-person party when I hadn't yet bothered leveling him up and optimizing his equipment. Had to fight that battle while stuck with a companion gimped by two experience levels and crappy equipment, it sucked!

Modifié par Squiggles1334, 22 décembre 2009 - 03:18 .

[robertthebard]

Original182 wrote...

robertthebard wrote...
It is entirely possible to keep Zevran in the party, even if you break up with him for somebody else.  I think the biggest problem people run in to is that they either don't talk to him in camp, or don't take him out of camp, and then get all shocked because he turns.  I have never even had him remain neutral against the Crows the second time, he alwways makes me reform my party so he can help me kill the guy.  In one play through, his approval couldn't have been much more than 25, and I'd even lost 2 points because I said something that maybe wasn't insulting but wasn't supportive either.  not sure.  Sparing his life is all good and all, but if you just leave him neutral in the camp, and don't try to talk to him a bit, don't be surprised if he gets a better offer and takes it.

People have every right to be angry at Zevran for turning on him. He swore an oath to serve the Grey Warden until he/she chooses to release him from duty. The PC let him live to give him a 2nd chance, but instead of trying to redeem himself, he backstabs the PC again.

The only time Zevran is justified in turning on you, is if as the PC you said something rude and hurtful to Zevran, or treated him badly. From the posts in here, I'm sure they didn't do anything of that sort. They just left him alone.

By default he should already be loyal to you based on the PC giving him a 2nd chance.

Edit: People are justified in killing Zevran in future games, simply based on the fact that he cannot be trusted.

But, some people don't know that you can make him NOT turn on you. That's the nice part of the game. When it is possible to change an outcome you never thought possible, you are pleasantly surprised.

I know what these people are saying, but I have never seen anything like that in my games.  I have never killed him at the ambush, mainly because it pisses Alistair off, and yet, even if I don't take him out and play with him, Zevran has never turned on me.  This is what I can comment on, because this has been my experience.  I wasn't looking over anyone's shoulder while they talked to him, so I don't know what they said.

[KnightofPhoenix]

SarEnyaDor wrote...
You know, a polite, "Thanks, but I don't swing that way" is more than sufficient. It works on straight people, gay people, dead people, and even some crazy people.

IT doesn't work on dead people. They just keep getting closer. And closer. With their eyes wide open. Drooling....

[Creature 1]

Squiggles1334 wrote...

First time through that fight, Zevran kinda frustrated me because out of loyalty and friendship he insisted on occupying a precious slot in my 4-person party when I hadn't yet bothered leveling him up and optimizing his equipment. Had to fight that battle while stuck with a companion gimped by two experience levels and crappy equipment, it sucked!

In my first run I managed to freeze almost every attacker with a cone of cold, so it was pretty easy even though there were just three of us.  In my second run I didn't have a damage mage so was a little concerned, but I got everyone to stand on a glyph of warding and got swarmed.  I had to use some potions but didn't even have a close call.  

[Sabriana]

He pledges his oath to ensure his survival. Getting dumped into the camp, ignored, or even treated badly does not bode well for his continued survival and expected protection through the party. He has no reason to trust the PC in that case, on the contrary. It's all about doing what's best for oneself at this point. That's what he's been trained to do ever since he was sold to the highest bidder, the Crows.



Because if the PC pays attention to him, and is nice at least every once in a while, he'll usually stay. Like I said, in my game he was neutral up to the point of meeting Taliesen, and all he did was back out, but he neither left, nor betrayed my PC. After that, my PC and he developed a relationship, and in the end he was completely loyal to her.

[Squiggles1334]

Creature 1 wrote...

Squiggles1334 wrote...

First time through that fight, Zevran kinda frustrated me because out of loyalty and friendship he insisted on occupying a precious slot in my 4-person party when I hadn't yet bothered leveling him up and optimizing his equipment. Had to fight that battle while stuck with a companion gimped by two experience levels and crappy equipment, it sucked!

In my first run I managed to freeze almost every attacker with a cone of cold, so it was pretty easy even though there were just three of us.  In my second run I didn't have a damage mage so was a little concerned, but I got everyone to stand on a glyph of warding and got swarmed.  I had to use some potions but didn't even have a close call.  

None of my mages had cone of cold at the time.

I had Morrigan focused mostly in hexes and curses, plus the arcane warrior specialization. Future playthroughs, I'm a bit more insistent on dropping a few points in elemental spells.

And crushing prison is such a snappy spell too! Too bad the cooldown is so long that it's better spent on boss enemies in a big royal rumble type battle.

[Squiggles1334]

Sabriana wrote...

He pledges his oath to ensure his survival. Getting dumped into the camp, ignored, or even treated badly does not bode well for his continued survival and expected protection through the party. He has no reason to trust the PC in that case, on the contrary. It's all about doing what's best for oneself at this point. That's what he's been trained to do ever since he was sold to the highest bidder, the Crows.

Because if the PC pays attention to him, and is nice at least every once in a while, he'll usually stay. Like I said, in my game he was neutral up to the point of meeting Taliesen, and all he did was back out, but he neither left, nor betrayed my PC. After that, my PC and he developed a relationship, and in the end he was completely loyal to her.

I'm pretty good about chatting my companions up and keeping them happy with presents and stuff to the point of loyalty.

I just suck at keeping them all optimized, probably because I'm always rolling with the same crew of 3 through most of the game.

That Crow encounter sure showed me!

[robertthebard]

I think I was 3/4 of the way through my second play through before I realized I could level them up in camp...

[Creature 1]

robertthebard wrote...

I think I was 3/4 of the way through my second play through before I realized I could level them up in camp...

No way!  How? 

[Squiggles1334]

Me too, haha

[robertthebard]

Creature 1 wrote...

robertthebard wrote...

I think I was 3/4 of the way through my second play through before I realized I could level them up in camp...

No way!  How? 

I'd look at the inventory screens, but I never thought to look at the char screens.  I found it by accident too, because I clicked the wrong button.

[fantasypisces]

Creature 1 wrote...

robertthebard wrote...

I think I was 3/4 of the way through my second play through before I realized I could level them up in camp...

No way!  How? 

Each characters page has a level-up button that becomes highlighted if they are able to level-up. Click that and pick their stats, skills/spells like normal (I found out about it on my second playthrough haha).

[robertthebard]

I'm starting to not feel so bad now.

[highcastle]

Poor Zevran. He seems to be either loved or hated, with no middle ground. And there are so many people who don't even realize that he doesn't have to turn on you.



@Creature1: The cutscene where Zev opts to fight with you is a little longer if you're in a romance with him. He can be quite sweet if you pick certain dialogue options, basically insisting that there's no way he'd let Talisan hurt you.



@Original182: Sorry, but I still don't get why people are angry if Zev turns. If he turns, it's because you treated him like crap. Regardless of whatever oath he swore, he's still a person. If someone treats me like crap, I'm not going to lift a finger to defend them. Given the chance, I might even work against them. And if you take the time to get to know Zevran, you realize he's been through the ringer several times over. Show him the littlest bit of compassion and he'll cling to your side like Gorilla Glue.

[Original182]

highcastle wrote...
@Original182: Sorry, but I still don't get why people are angry if Zev turns. If he turns, it's because you treated him like crap. Regardless of whatever oath he swore, he's still a person. If someone treats me like crap, I'm not going to lift a finger to defend them. Given the chance, I might even work against them. And if you take the time to get to know Zevran, you realize he's been through the ringer several times over. Show him the littlest bit of compassion and he'll cling to your side like Gorilla Glue.

That's the thing. People didn't treat Zevran like crap, but he still turned on you. At worst, all they did was leave him alone. They didn't even expose him to danger.

People gave him a 2nd chance when they could have killed him. And how did Zevran thank them? By backstabbing them, considering he gave them his oath to serve the Grey Warden.

[Squiggles1334]

If you willingly take in a guy who was trying to assassinate you and simply take him at his word when he swears an oath and then you don't bother to build rapport or even learn if he's trustworthy or honorable to begin with, you really shouldn't be surprised by the results.

[robertthebard]

Original182 wrote...

highcastle wrote...
@Original182: Sorry, but I still don't get why people are angry if Zev turns. If he turns, it's because you treated him like crap. Regardless of whatever oath he swore, he's still a person. If someone treats me like crap, I'm not going to lift a finger to defend them. Given the chance, I might even work against them. And if you take the time to get to know Zevran, you realize he's been through the ringer several times over. Show him the littlest bit of compassion and he'll cling to your side like Gorilla Glue.

That's the thing. People didn't treat Zevran like crap, but he still turned on you. At worst, all they did was leave him alone. They didn't even expose him to danger.

People gave him a 2nd chance when they could have killed him. And how did Zevran thank them? By backstabbing them, considering he gave them his oath to serve the Grey Warden.

Of course he backstabbed 'em, he's an assassin, he does more damage that way.

Seriously though, if you're not at least talking to him, trying to find out something about him, and are just leaving him sitting in camp, what's he supposed to think?  "Keep your friends close, and your enemies closer".  This would be his thought process.  I would find his turning unacceptable if you had mid range approval, for sure, but if he's still neutral, then it's because he was ignored in camp.  Give him some gloves, and a couple of chats where you don't outright insult him, or Antiva, and he is indeed your man w/out reservation.  Given what I have seen happen so far in my games, doing this least little bit will not only keep him from turning, but will also have him fighting for you.  Friendship is a 2 way street.

[Original182]

Squiggles1334 wrote...

If you willingly take in a guy who was trying to assassinate you and simply take him at his word when he swears an oath and then you don't bother to build rapport or even learn if he's trustworthy or honorable to begin with, you really shouldn't be surprised by the results.

And people shouldn't be surprised why some people want to kill him in their future games. If what Zevran did was acceptable, so is killing him at the first opportunity.

[Original182]

robertthebard wrote...
Seriously though, if you're not at least talking to him, trying to find out something about him, and are just leaving him sitting in camp, what's he supposed to think?  "Keep your friends close, and your enemies closer".  This would be his thought process.  I would find his turning unacceptable if you had mid range approval, for sure, but if he's still neutral, then it's because he was ignored in camp.  Give him some gloves, and a couple of chats where you don't outright insult him, or Antiva, and he is indeed your man w/out reservation.  Given what I have seen happen so far in my games, doing this least little bit will not only keep him from turning, but will also have him fighting for you.  Friendship is a 2 way street.

So when you recruited Loghain, was it ok for Alistair to turn his back on you, like Zevran? 
And Cailan is also Alistair's half-brother. Just saying.

[Creature 1]

highcastle wrote...
@Creature1: The cutscene where Zev opts to fight with you is a little longer if you're in a romance with him. He can be quite sweet if you pick certain dialogue options, basically insisting that there's no way he'd let Talisan hurt you.

He was at 100% love, but maybe I picked the wrong conversation option.  IIRC the first was "but then I'd have to be dead", and I picked one that said something like "Zevran belongs with me"--I thought the first sounded too self-centered but maybe the other was too possessive!  I have a save, I'll load it tonight and see what happens if I pick different options.