116 réponses à ce sujet

[robertthebard]

Original182 wrote...

robertthebard wrote...
Seriously though, if you're not at least talking to him, trying to find out something about him, and are just leaving him sitting in camp, what's he supposed to think?  "Keep your friends close, and your enemies closer".  This would be his thought process.  I would find his turning unacceptable if you had mid range approval, for sure, but if he's still neutral, then it's because he was ignored in camp.  Give him some gloves, and a couple of chats where you don't outright insult him, or Antiva, and he is indeed your man w/out reservation.  Given what I have seen happen so far in my games, doing this least little bit will not only keep him from turning, but will also have him fighting for you.  Friendship is a 2 way street.

So when you recruited Loghain, was it ok for Alistair to turn his back on you, like Zevran? 
And Cailan is also Alistair's half-brother. Just saying.

Funny you should bring that up, because I wasn't going to.  You can have 100 love approval with Alistair, and he will turn.  Read what I wrote again.  Pay close attention to what I bolded.

[Squiggles1334]

Original182 wrote...

Squiggles1334 wrote...

If you willingly take in a guy who was trying to assassinate you and simply take him at his word when he swears an oath and then you don't bother to build rapport or even learn if he's trustworthy or honorable to begin with, you really shouldn't be surprised by the results.

And people shouldn't be surprised why some people want to kill him in their future games. If what Zevran did was acceptable, so is killing him at the first opportunity.

No, I just find it funny that there are people who are actually shocked and outraged that a guy who was previously trying to kill them, a guy who comes from a shady cutthroat organization like the Antivan Crows, a guy who they never bothered to even learn anything about, actually had the audacity to go back on his word.

[Original182]

robertthebard wrote...

Original182 wrote...

robertthebard wrote...
Seriously though, if you're not at least talking to him, trying to find out something about him, and are just leaving him sitting in camp, what's he supposed to think?  "Keep your friends close, and your enemies closer".  This would be his thought process.  I would find his turning unacceptable if you had mid range approval, for sure, but if he's still neutral, then it's because he was ignored in camp.  Give him some gloves, and a couple of chats where you don't outright insult him, or Antiva, and he is indeed your man w/out reservation.  Given what I have seen happen so far in my games, doing this least little bit will not only keep him from turning, but will also have him fighting for you.  Friendship is a 2 way street.

So when you recruited Loghain, was it ok for Alistair to turn his back on you, like Zevran? 
And Cailan is also Alistair's half-brother. Just saying.

Funny you should bring that up, because I wasn't going to.  You can have 100 love approval with Alistair, and he will turn.  Read what I wrote again.  Pay close attention to what I bolded.

Allow me to underline for you the part you should pay attention.

If, you put in the effort to be Zevran's friend, he would not turn on you. Thus, you cannot judge him for turning if you treated him badly.

But, if you had not treated Alistair badly by recruiting Loghain, he also wouldn't have turned on you. So are you justified in hating Alistair for turning his back on you?

Friendships aren't just a matter of meter. The way I see it, when you recruited Loghain, it was Alistair disapproves -100.

[Starlight]

@ Original182



The problem is if you really spare his life and let him follow you, ordinarily you will try to understand him more by talking to him. If you just put him in the camp, don't bother to understand him, why on earth you "require" him to understand you, to side with you? How do you convince him to trust you?



Then it is no wonder he chooses what benefit him, i.e. his life, most.



And don't forget that Sten belongs to the race who try to invade Fereldon, too. He might not turn on you now, but later. If you don't earn his trust, his respect. He will surely persuade his tribe to invade Fereldon again.

[Original182]

Squiggles1334 wrote...

No, I just find it funny that there are people who are actually shocked and outraged that a guy who was previously trying to kill them, a guy who comes from a shady cutthroat organization like the Antivan Crows, a guy who they never bothered to even learn anything about, actually had the audacity to go back on his word.

Yeah I know, you'd think Zevran would learn from his first failed attempt.

[Original182]

Starlight wrote...

@ Original182

The problem is if you really spare his life and let him follow you, ordinarily you will try to understand him more by talking to him. If you just put him in the camp, don't bother to understand him, why on earth you "require" him to understand you, to side with you? How do you convince him to trust you?

Then it is no wonder he chooses what benefit him, i.e. his life, most.

No, he still has no right to turn on you. People have posted that Zevran can also walk away from the fight to let you and Taliesan fight each other. That would have been acceptable for most people.

Backstabbing you a 2nd time crosses the line too far.

And don't forget that Sten belongs to the race who try to invade Fereldon, too. He might not turn on you now, but later. If you don't earn his trust, his respect. He will surely persuade his tribe to invade Fereldon again.

Actually the Qun will invade Ferelden. Sten only wishes that he does not have to face you in the war, but that war will happen.

Modifié par Original182, 22 décembre 2009 - 04:26 .

[ejoslin]

Original182 wrote...

Starlight wrote...

@ Original182

The problem is if you really spare his life and let him follow you, ordinarily you will try to understand him more by talking to him. If you just put him in the camp, don't bother to understand him, why on earth you "require" him to understand you, to side with you? How do you convince him to trust you?

Then it is no wonder he chooses what benefit him, i.e. his life, most.

No, he still has no right to turn on you. People have posted that Zevran can also walk away from the fight to let you and Taliesan fight each other. That would have been acceptable for most people.

Backstabbing you a 2nd time crosses the line too far.

And don't forget that Sten belongs to the race who try to invade Fereldon, too. He might not turn on you now, but later. If you don't earn his trust, his respect. He will surely persuade his tribe to invade Fereldon again.

Actually the Qun will invade Ferelden. Sten only wishes that he does not have to face you in the war, but that war will happen.

If you earn Sten's respect, there's no invasion.  But when asked if he ever met anyone with honor, he tells them, "Only one."  If you live, you can go with him to his lands as well.  

Modifié par ejoslin, 22 décembre 2009 - 04:32 .

[Original182]

ejoslin wrote...
If you earn Sten's respect, there's no invasion.  But when asked if he ever met anyone with honor, he tells them, "Only one."

I never got that epilogue, so I can't comment on it. You're telling me that his leader will not invade Ferelden if there is at least one honorable individual in Ferelden? I thought Sten has no power to decide whether there should be a war or not.

[robertthebard]

Original182 wrote...

robertthebard wrote...

Original182 wrote...

robertthebard wrote...
Seriously though, if you're not at least talking to him, trying to find out something about him, and are just leaving him sitting in camp, what's he supposed to think?  "Keep your friends close, and your enemies closer".  This would be his thought process.  I would find his turning unacceptable if you had mid range approval, for sure, but if he's still neutral, then it's because he was ignored in camp.  Give him some gloves, and a couple of chats where you don't outright insult him, or Antiva, and he is indeed your man w/out reservation.  Given what I have seen happen so far in my games, doing this least little bit will not only keep him from turning, but will also have him fighting for you.  Friendship is a 2 way street.

So when you recruited Loghain, was it ok for Alistair to turn his back on you, like Zevran? 
And Cailan is also Alistair's half-brother. Just saying.

Funny you should bring that up, because I wasn't going to.  You can have 100 love approval with Alistair, and he will turn.  Read what I wrote again.  Pay close attention to what I bolded.

Allow me to underline for you the part you should pay attention.

If, you put in the effort to be Zevran's friend, he would not turn on you. Thus, you cannot judge him for turning if you treated him badly.

But, if you had not treated Alistair badly by recruiting Loghain, he also wouldn't have turned on you. So are you justified in hating Alistair for turning his back on you?

Friendships aren't just a matter of meter. The way I see it, when you recruited Loghain, it was Alistair disapproves -100.

So, since day one, you have had Zevran fighting side by side with you, deferring to you in all things, and lying about who he is?  You see, I didn't survive Ostagar with Zevran.  I spared his life despite the fact that he tried to kill me.  Comparing his betrayal if I ignore him in camp, or treat him badly is not the same as suddenly doing a 180 on what you have been doing all game.  Zevran initially comes into the game to kill you.  Alistair comes into the game to help you, or that is the premise that is given.  Ignoring Zevran isn't really the same thing as fawning over Alistair all game to get 100 love approval to have him turn on you over Loghain.  We can play this game if you like, but by the very nature of how the two are introduced you are coming in from an even weaker position than Alistair can do no wrong.

However, just for fun, let's hit the salient points of Zevran:

We are introduced to Zevran in a cutscene where Howe informs Loghain that he has arranged a solution to the surviving Grey Wardens.  Enter Zevran, an assassin with the Antivan Crows.  Salient point?  He's an assassin.  We then meet Zevran again in a cutscene where an elaborate, if transparent ambush has been set up.  His first spoken words?  "The Grey Warden dies here".  After you defeat him, you have the option to wake him up and talk to him, or use the infamous Murder Knife.  Assuming you choose the former, you can have a protracted discussion that could well end up with you doing the latter anyway.  However, if you don't, he will swear his loyalty and join the party.  Now, it's interesting to note that the Queen of all that is evil in Ferelden, according to forum lore, Morrigan, will disapprove.  Even if she's not in a relationship with you.  Alistair will disapprove even if you use the persuade that you can use Zevran.  Tell me, who wouldn't, after having his entire group beat down by his target offer to join and help?  Also, considering what we know of Zevran at the time; he's an assassin sent to kill you, are you really taking him at his word?

So now, the people that just leave him in camp, thinking it's all good, are surprised that he either remains neutral in the fight, or turns?  Frankly, I'm surprised they didn't set the bar a lot higher to make him remain neutral.

[fantasypisces]

I have no problem with Zevran turning on you, if you didn't take the time to talk to him. It makes sense for his character and is much more plausible then certain other characters who forgo their entire duty and beliefs, but we won't mention them.

[robertthebard]

Regarding Sten, if you get the dialog, which I think you do at the coronation, regardless of where his approval is, he says simply that he will not seek you out.  I've gotten this same dialog when he's in the mid 20's and at 90ish.  In other words, despite the invasion, and the war, he will not want to fight you in the battle.

[Starlight]

Original182 wrote...

No, he still has no right to turn on you. People have posted that Zevran can also walk away from the fight to let you and Taliesan fight each other. That would have been acceptable for most people.

Though it is not approipate to mention a bit about politics, I can't help but ask "Try this on the current nations or previous countries and see what will happens". As an assissian trained in mind, he will choose the side which benefits him the most. Quite the contrast to Alistair or Leliana that people are trying to "harden" them, you need to "soften" Zevran first. Get into his heart and let him thinks the PC trust him, regrad him as friend or even, lovers. Then he will follow you and loyal to the end.

Off topic about Sten, his banter with Zevran has mentioned that "every people in their land are equal, just depends on which place they are fit to", that's the reason even elves are trusted to some certain important post even above humans. That's mean even his opinion will weight heavily between his tribe.

[Original182]

@robertthebard with Alistair's half brother's avatar

Dude give it up.

Either you admit you were wrong to judge Alistair for breaking his oath and turn on you, and that he deserves the benefit of the doubt like Zevran.

Or you were wrong to say Zevran has the right to break his oath if you treat him badly. Therefore people have the right to be Zevran-haters, like how you are an Alistair-hater.

Their backgrounds don't matter. When they joined you don't matter. It's the principle of whether you are allowed to break your oath or not.

You cannot say Alistair was wrong to go back on his word and leave his duty as a Grey Warden if you recruit Loghain (treat Alistair badly), then say Zevran is completely justified in breaking his oath to you if you "treat him badly by leaving him alone at the camp".

Not that I expect you to admit you were wrong.

Modifié par Original182, 22 décembre 2009 - 04:45 .

[Original182]

fantasypisces wrote...

I have no problem with Zevran turning on you, if you didn't take the time to talk to him. It makes sense for his character and is much more plausible then certain other characters who forgo their entire duty and beliefs, but we won't mention them.

No I agree, it makes sense for an assassin to turn on you. It is understandable.

But backstabbing is backstabbing, regardless of what the profession of the backstabber is. And my original point is that people have the right to be angry at a backstabber. Him being an assassin does not give him the license to backstab someone, unless he was in Antiva, which he was not.

Modifié par Original182, 22 décembre 2009 - 04:51 .

[ejoslin]

Original182 wrote...

ejoslin wrote...
If you earn Sten's respect, there's no invasion.  But when asked if he ever met anyone with honor, he tells them, "Only one."

I never got that epilogue, so I can't comment on it. You're telling me that his leader will not invade Ferelden if there is at least one honorable individual in Ferelden? I thought Sten has no power to decide whether there should be a war or not.

Sacrifice yourself after finding Sten's sword.  That's where you get that epilogue with no comment on invasions whereas if you don't, you do hear about the war.  Yes, Sten says that he was a scout for the Qunari, which does imply that his report will have quite a bit to do with an invasion.  And again, if you live, you can choose to go to Sten's homeland with him -- he invites you to come, tells you when the ship will be leaving.

[ejoslin]

Original182 wrote...

@robertthebard with Alistair's half brother's avatar

Dude give it up.

Either you admit you were wrong to judge Alistair for breaking his oath and turn on you, and that he deserves the benefit of the doubt like Zevran.

Or you were wrong to say Zevran has the right to break his oath if you treat him badly. Therefore people have the right to be Zevran-haters, like how you are an Alistair-hater.

Their backgrounds don't matter. When they joined you don't matter. It's the principle of whether you are allowed to break your oath or not.

You cannot say Alistair was wrong to go back on his word and leave his duty as a Grey Warden if you recruit Loghain (treat Alistair badly), then say Zevran is completely justified in breaking his oath to you if you "treat him badly by leaving him alone at the camp".

Not that I expect you to admit you were wrong.

Alistair's oath wasn't to you.  It was to the Gray Wardens.  Zevran, if you talk to him, you realize that the reason he's with you is for protection from the Crows (of course, he won't betray you most likely if you get this far).  I think the main difference is that Alistair defines himself as a Gray Warden and that is who he betrays for personal reasons.  Zev defines himself as a Crow and has sworn loyalty to both them AND the PC.  So it makes sense that he will be loyal to the one who is more loyal to him.

[Original182]

ejoslin wrote...

Alistair's oath wasn't to you.  It was to the Gray Wardens.  Zevran, if you talk to him, you realize that the reason he's with you is for protection from the Crows (of course, he won't betray you most likely if you get this far).  I think the main difference is that Alistair defines himself as a Gray Warden and that is who he betrays for personal reasons.  Zev defines himself as a Crow and has sworn loyalty to both them AND the PC.  So it makes sense that he will be loyal to the one who is more loyal to him.

This is actually between me and robertthebard from another thread.

robertthebard has been fanatically attacking Alistair for breaking his oath as a Grey Warden and turning his back towards his duties as a Grey Warden if he recruited Loghain. He's quite serious on this. (Edit: See the post below lol)

But here we see him change his tune on Zevran and completely agrees with him breaking his oath for whatever reasons. Though I wish you didn't give him extra ideas.

I already accept that robert here can be a walking mass of contradictions, and I really don't expect him to be right or wrong. It's just fun to see him weasle out of his own contradictions. I'll still agree with him on things in future if we are of the same opinion. I'm just having fun and no malice intended.

Modifié par Original182, 22 décembre 2009 - 05:05 .

[robertthebard]

Original182 wrote...

@robertthebard with Alistair's half brother's avatar

Dude give it up.

Either you admit you were wrong to judge Alistair for breaking his oath and turn on you, and that he deserves the benefit of the doubt like Zevran.

Or you were wrong to say Zevran has the right to break his oath if you treat him badly. Therefore people have the right to be Zevran-haters, like how you are an Alistair-hater.

Their backgrounds don't matter. When they joined you don't matter. It's the principle of whether you are allowed to break your oath or not.

You cannot say Alistair was wrong to go back on his word and leave his duty as a Grey Warden if you recruit Loghain (treat Alistair badly), then say Zevran is completely justified in breaking his oath to you if you "treat him badly by leaving him alone at the camp".

Not that I expect you to admit you were wrong.

What???  This is a new low for the Alistair fan club.  Or is it?  This actually goes right along with what I said about him stepping in dog poop, and wiping a whole village because he messed up his hair.

Zevran with mid 20's approval has never turned on me.

Alistair with 100 Love, and 100 Friendly has turned on me.

In light of this, Zevran is by far the superior companion.  If there were a Murder Knife option for Alistair prior to the Landsmeet, then people would be foolish not to take it.

Shall we do a more indepth comparison?

Alistair fan club boo hoos because Alistair, after being raised by Arl Eamon, granted in his barn, was sent to the Chantry at age 10.  By comparison, Zevran was raised in a **** house, and sold off to the Crows at age 7.  Despite this, Zevran does not dwell on this, and in fact will say that it made him stronger.  We don't have to take him at his word about that either, how many dialog options in Zevran's dialogs lead to him crying about his childhood?  How about Alistair?  Yeah, they should code in a box of Kleenex at Alistair's bed roll.

What do I have to do to keep Zevran from turning on me?  Talk to him a few times in camp, w/out demeaning him or Antiva.

What do I have to do to keep Alistair from turning?  Kiss his ass at the Landsmeet.

What about his past will Zevran leave out in dialog?  Nothing that we know of in game lore.  In fact, there's nothing floating around the forums that we don't know about either.  We know that he'll go either way in a romance, and we know that really early after he's added to the party.  What will Alistair hide about his past?  Anything that may be considered important to the task at hand, you know, stopping Loghain, and the Blight.  He lays out so much crap that people even use what he says to defend his lying, such as his Templar robes being under his pillow.  Since everything that comes out of his mouth is a lie, what are we supposed to believe?  Honesty about his past goes to Zevran, and, sticking to what he has been raised to believe goes to Zevran too, since he will only turn on you if you have totally ignored him, which means he has no idea where he really stands with you, and doesn't know when the infamous Murder Knife may come into play.

There is really no comparison.  Alistair is a piece of crap from day one as far as being a friend and ally goes.  He's only useful if he's fighting.  Other than that, he's throw away.  Zevran will be honest to a fault with the PC, male or female, about wanting to board them...If you ask me, sexual preference is a lot more of a private matter, if harder to hide under current living conditions in camp, than "Who's your daddy"...There is really no comparison.

[Original182]

Whoa relax dude, chill. No need for the wall of text. Ok whatever you say man. You're right. I'm wrong.

[robertthebard]

Original182 wrote...

Whoa relax dude, chill. No need for the wall of text. Ok whatever you say man. You're right. I'm wrong.

I tried to keep it short.

[ejoslin]

robertthebard wrote...


Alistair fan club boo hoos because Alistair, after being raised by Arl Eamon, granted in his barn, was sent to the Chantry at age 10.  By comparison, Zevran was raised in a **** house, and sold off to the Crows at age 7.  Despite this, Zevran does not dwell on this, and in fact will say that it made him stronger.  We don't have to take him at his word about that either, how many dialog options in Zevran's dialogs lead to him crying about his childhood?  How about Alistair?  Yeah, they should code in a box of Kleenex at Alistair's bed roll.

Heh, just to bring this point one step further . . . Zevran points out that the PC's life has been just as difficult as his -- that people like them are not the product of idyllic lives.  My noble PC, thinking Zev's was SO much worse, tried to point that out, where Zev told her only if you look at surface things would you believe that (lost approval too).  I said more about this in another thread, though.  Alistair hates who he is, he makes that very clear.  Zev just tries to make the best of whatever situation he finds himself in.

[ejoslin]

Original182 wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

Alistair's oath wasn't to you.  It was to the Gray Wardens.  Zevran, if you talk to him, you realize that the reason he's with you is for protection from the Crows (of course, he won't betray you most likely if you get this far).  I think the main difference is that Alistair defines himself as a Gray Warden and that is who he betrays for personal reasons.  Zev defines himself as a Crow and has sworn loyalty to both them AND the PC.  So it makes sense that he will be loyal to the one who is more loyal to him.

This is actually between me and robertthebard from another thread.

robertthebard has been fanatically attacking Alistair for breaking his oath as a Grey Warden and turning his back towards his duties as a Grey Warden if he recruited Loghain. He's quite serious on this. (Edit: See the post below lol)

But here we see him change his tune on Zevran and completely agrees with him breaking his oath for whatever reasons. Though I wish you didn't give him extra ideas.

I already accept that robert here can be a walking mass of contradictions, and I really don't expect him to be right or wrong. It's just fun to see him weasle out of his own contradictions. I'll still agree with him on things in future if we are of the same opinion. I'm just having fun and no malice intended.

I just don't agree that it's a contradiction, and since it's not in PMs, I'll comment :innocent:  Alistair and Zevran have such different motivations that with Alistair, it's a shock when he turns on you, turns on the gray wardens, throws out everything he believes in whereas with Zevran, he is just doing what he feels is needed for him to survive.

[Starlight]

Original182 wrote...

No I agree, it makes sense for an assassin to turn on you. It is understandable.

But backstabbing is backstabbing, regardless of what the profession of the backstabber is. And my original point is that people have the right to be angry at a backstabber. Him being an assassin does not give him the license to backstab someone, unless he was in Antiva, which he was not.

Sorry, I haven't read about the post of OP, my fault. I understand your point now.

Though, my suggestion to OP is, if you want to use him and don't want he turns on you, do talks a bit. If no, just ignore and and don't recruit him.

[SimToth1212]

Zevran has never turned on me, but he has turned me on.

Modifié par SimToth1212, 22 décembre 2009 - 06:07 .

[eschilde]

Original182 wrote...

No, he still has no right to turn on you. People have posted that Zevran can also walk away from the fight to let you and Taliesan fight each other. That would have been acceptable for most people.

Backstabbing you a 2nd time crosses the line too far.

Heh, I think the problem with this kind of thinking is assuming Zevran has any sort of honor. This is a guy who betrays his organization in exchange for his life. Yeah, sure, maybe he had reasons that you could consider convincing, but given the choice between following the PC through hell and high water killing darkspawn, or going back to a somewhat more comfortable life, unless he actually likes the PC, you can't really expect someone like him to follow you around just because he swore an oath.

I actually thought the whole oath thing was a bunch of bs. Zevran's the kind of guy who will do what he wants as long as he feels like it. I'm not saying you can't be mad, just that you totally should have seen it coming.