116 réponses à ce sujet

[TanithAeyrs]

I have not been betrayed by Zevran. I always take time talk to him, even romanced him once. He is a complex character who is trained as an assasin so if I did not take the time to get to know him I expect he would betray me. My second playthrough my very practical elven mage chose Loghain, she was very hurt by Alistair's betrayal. However, I don't think it was entirely out of character for Alistair to betray the PC after Loghain caused the death of Duncan and Cailan and poisoned arl Eamon. I wish there had been a point in the epilogue that I could have chosen to go and find him. I am sure that after the Grey Wardens were reestablished in Fereldan my PC and Zevran (her romantic interest) went to look for Alistair. My human noble PC will take great delight in killing Loghain for allowing Arl Howe to commit his evil deeds.

How you view Zevran and Alistair and their loyalty or betrayal should be an aspect of your roleplaying. My PC characters will all have different views on the subject depending on their backgrounds and moral views.

[Creature 1]

eschilde wrote...
Heh, I think the problem with this kind of thinking is assuming Zevran has any sort of honor. This is a guy who betrays his organization in exchange for his life.

I don't think you can blame him for leaving the Crows.  He was sold to them as a very young kid, and trained using brutal methods.  His superiors told him that their assassins are considered expendable assets.  There is no retirement from the Crows, the only way you get out is through death.  I don't think he owes the Crows anything. 

Yeah, sure, maybe he had reasons that you could consider convincing,
but given the choice between following the PC through hell and high
water killing darkspawn, or going back to a somewhat more comfortable
life, unless he actually likes the PC, you can't really expect someone
like him to follow you around just because he swore an oath.

I actually thought the whole oath thing was a bunch of bs. Zevran's the
kind of guy who will do what he wants as long as he feels like it. I'm
not saying you can't be mad, just that you totally should have seen it
coming.

The impression I get is that Zevran's word is worth nothing unless he is attached to you, and then it's his bond.  

Modifié par Creature 1, 23 décembre 2009 - 01:16 .

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

From reading some of the threads, uit's clear some people here lack basic RPG in-game social skills and fail to grasp some pretty obvious points. You almost have to screw him over deliberately and ignore him or subject him to verbal abuse alot to get him to turn on you. In all my playthroughs, he hasn't done it once, whether I was romancing him or not. Give him a few presents, talk to him a couple times, and take him out assasinating every once in a while, and he's a happy man.



And for those with the homophobic rants about how he keeps coming on to you, and are surprised to end up with the offer for the "massage", sorry, I don't buy it. Zevran makes it pretty clear from damned near the first convo he swings both ways, and guess what....the dialogue options to tell him "sorry, not my thing, it's chicks or nothing for me, bro" are pretty damned obvious and right there in front of it. It takes no special mind skills, either, to see the dialogue options which will plant the seeds in his perverted little mind that maybe, you swing that way too.



So, if Zevran keeps hitting on your male character, and he eventually finds you massage-worthy, it's because you have been leading him on and saying things to him leading him to believe that it's something you are into, that you're lookin for a little man-on-man love. Zevran, if nothing else, is pretty damned blunt and brutally honest in matters of sex.



So protest all you like, we who have played the game know the truth.

[Creature 1]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...
Zevran, if nothing else, is pretty damned blunt and brutally honest in matters of sex.

Except when he's playing coy! 

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Creature 1 wrote...

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...
Zevran, if nothing else, is pretty damned blunt and brutally honest in matters of sex.

Except when he's playing coy! 

Zev's idea of being coy is telling you to tie him up and punish him for offending you

[Creature 1]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

Creature 1 wrote...

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...
Zevran, if nothing else, is pretty damned blunt and brutally honest in matters of sex.

Except when he's playing coy! 

Zev's idea of being coy is telling you to tie him up and punish him for offending you

If you ask him to join you in your tent he pretends not to know what you mean.  Towards the end of the conversation one dialogue option is "Does this coy thing work for you?"  I picked that one!

[Noble_House]

J'espère que à l'avenir ces américans n'essayeront pas à utiliser des mots français... >.<



The word is deux, not duex. 'Duex' sounds like some sort of shower cleaner.





Anyways. I have never encountered this betrayal sequence. Is there some part in Zevran's dialogue to which the player must progress in order for it to occur?

[Tae Jir]

Kalfear wrote...

turned on me first game so had to keep him around for 2nd game!

Didnt turn 2nd game so ill get to see the end story about him

From here on out the flirting ****** gets killed soon as we meet! No exceptions!

If your not born Female, you call me handsome, I kill you! Really simple!

If only things were so cut and dry in real life as well

Ahhhh

a nug that thinks its an archdemon

Modifié par Tae Jir, 23 décembre 2009 - 04:13 .

[Namirsolo]

Heh, I think the problem with this kind of thinking is assuming Zevran
has any sort of honor. This is a guy who betrays his organization in
exchange for his life. Yeah, sure, maybe he had reasons that you could
consider convincing, but given the choice between following the PC
through hell and high water killing darkspawn, or going back to a
somewhat more comfortable life, unless he actually likes the PC, you
can't really expect someone like him to follow you around just because
he swore an oath.

I actually thought the whole oath thing was a
bunch of bs. Zevran's the kind of guy who will do what he wants as long
as he feels like it. I'm not saying you can't be mad, just that you
totally should have seen it coming.

I think this is an unfair and misguided impression of the character. For one, Zevran never had a choice in becoming a Crow. He adapted to it and even enjoyed it, but the "organization" ended up betraying him far more than he ever could. He fell in love with another crow (as he will tell you if you have high enough approval) and was tricked into murdering her (although he didn't do it personally) and the Crows had no compassion whatsoever for his situation and had a large part in it.

He accepts the mission on the Warden because he believes it will end in his death. He wants to die since it is his only way out of the Crows. If you choose to let him wake up he asks to follow you- most likely on a whim. He is an opportunist, after all. If he falls in love with the Warden or becomes good friends with him/her he sees he has something else to live for. He's been shown compassion for probably the first time in his life and the warden freed him from  his previous life.

If, however, he is completely ignored or treated badly he probably is still bitter and probably still wants to die. What better way to bring about his death than to betray someone who he knows will easily kill him.

[Original182]

Namirsolo wrote...

He accepts the mission on the Warden because he believes it will end in his death. He wants to die since it is his only way out of the Crows. If you choose to let him wake up he asks to follow you- most likely on a whim. He is an opportunist, after all. If he falls in love with the Warden or becomes good friends with him/her he sees he has something else to live for. He's been shown compassion for probably the first time in his life and the warden freed him from  his previous life.

If, however, he is completely ignored or treated badly he probably is still bitter and probably still wants to die. What better way to bring about his death than to betray someone who he knows will easily kill him.

That's a stretch. If he had wanted to die, he would have provoked the Warden to kill him instead of trying to bargain his way out. It's very obvious he wanted to live. He could also have let the Crows hunt him down instead of "taking his chance with the Warden, who is the sort to give the Crows pause".

To say that he betrayed you because he wanted to die was a stretch. Why wait till that moment? Why not attempt to assassinate the Grey Warden in the camp, which would have resulted in his death.

No he betrayed the Grey Warden because Taliesan offered him a way back to the Crows. That's a backstabber.

Edit: If you like Zevran, no problem. I also increased his approval rating to get his story about his former love. I felt really bad for him. But you cannot justify him backstabbing you a 2nd time, considering he gave you his oath to serve you. People showed him mercy,  and you say backstabbing you is the proper way of thanks?

Modifié par Original182, 23 décembre 2009 - 04:58 .

[ejoslin]

Zevran is more complex. I like Sten's view when you ask him about his people -- how you can't just pidgen hole people. Does he betray you if he feels no loyalty towards you? Yep, I guess he does (hasn't happened to me, but that's another story). Does he feel loyalty towards you if you treat him decently, even just a little? Yep, he sure does.

Zev and Taliesan were lovers and friends. Taliesen accepted a contract and searched for Zevran to save his life.  If you have ignored Zev, treated him poorly, he will feel more loyalty towards Taliesan and try to save him, because he knows how easily you will kill him.  If he likes you a little, he won't try to save Taliesan and in fact tells you that he didn't desert you, he deserted Taliesen -- he knows Taliesen will die at your hands.  If he likes you a lot or adores you, he will kill Taliesen with you.  He is very loyal, but he is torn right there because he has differing reasons, depending on circumstances, to whom he should loyal. 

That differs very much from Alistair turning on you. With Zev, his vow is personal, to you. It's not even to Alistair (again, he makes it clear that the PC is the one he feels indentured to). Alistair made a vow to the Gray Wardens. He may end up hating YOU personally for the choice you made, but with him, the stakes are MUCH higher. He not only deserts you, but everyone, and he does it with full knowledge. He must know that the reason you're taking in Loghain is because you need as many GWs as possible; it's not like you like the man or want him to be your buddy.

Modifié par ejoslin, 23 décembre 2009 - 05:48 .

[Original182]

ejoslin wrote...

Zevran is more complex. I like Sten's view when you ask him about his people -- how you can't just pidgen hole people. Does he betray you if he feels no loyalty towards you? Yep, I guess he does (hasn't happened to me, but that's another story). Does he feel loyalty towards you if you treat him decently, even just a little? Yep, he sure does.

Yeah but the same can be said for Alistair, you cannot pidgeon hole Alistair into what he does whether you recruit Loghain or not. Not only that, people have claimed that Alistair is very well written. But you don't give him the benefit of the doubt below, like how you're giving Zevran.

I can also ask, will Alistair leave you if you respect his wishes that Loghain be executed, which is completely justifiable considering Loghain killed the king, grey wardens, his father figure duncan, and also placed the blame on the grey wardens? No he won't, he will stick by you till the very end, even offering to sacrifice himself so that YOU may live.

My friend bard named robert will also start wild speculations that Alistair wasn't trying to be a hero when he sacrificed himself, and that he was actually running away from his responsibilities as king. Much like how Zevran was running way from reality by trying to get himself killed when he accepted the mission to kill you because of what happened to his former love? But of course, if Zevran does it, he's a complex character that is misunderstood, confused, etc. But if Alistair does it, he's a wimp.

Zev and Taliesan were lovers and friends. Taliesen accepted a contract and searched for Zevran to save his life.  If you have ignored Zev, treated him poorly, he will feel more loyalty towards Taliesan and try to save him, because he knows how easily you will kill him.  If he likes you a little, he won't try to save Taliesan and in fact tells you that he didn't desert you, he deserted Taliesen -- he knows Taliesen will die at your hands.  If he likes you a lot or adores you, he will kill Taliesen with you.  He is very loyal, but he is torn right there because he has differing reasons, depending on circumstances, to whom he should loyal.

Now you're saying if Zevran doesn't like you, it's ok for him to turn on you.
So using the same logic, if Alistair doesn't like you, it's ok for him to leave you too. Why not?

No, Zevran stayed with you because he thought he could never return to the Crows for failing to kill the Grey Warden. Since it meant death, he thought he would have a better chance to live by being with you, seeing as the Grey Warden is the sort to give the Crows pause.

He backstabbed the Grey Warden not because he has higher loyalty for Taliesan, but because it was a chance for him to return to the Crows, something he thought was not possible.

That differs very much from Alistair turning on you. With Zev, his vow is personal, to you. It's not even to Alistair (again, he makes it clear that the PC is the one he feels indentured to). Alistair made a vow to the Gray Wardens.

Ah but Zevran also has an oath to the Antivan Crows. How come him betraying them to be with you is ok, but Alistair abandoning the Grey Wardens is not? How come Zevran breaking oaths here and there is ok, but Alistair breaking his oath is not? Regardless of how big or small the consequences are, an oath is an oath.

He may end up hating YOU personally for the choice you made, but with him, the stakes are MUCH higher. He not only deserts you, but everyone, and he does it with full knowledge.

If Zevran had killed you in Taliesan's ambush, you would have died, and there would be 1 less Grey Warden in Ferelden to tackle the Blight. Stakes are pretty high too. Alistair only LEFT the party, with maybe an angry look at you. Alistair's crime is much less, yet he is condemned much more than Zevran.

He must know that the reason you're taking in Loghain is because you need as many GWs as possible; it's not like you like the man or want him to be your buddy.

Then Zevran should not have betrayed you as well. He should also have understood that the Grey Warden's time is better spent on the party that he/she favors, whether Zevran likes it or not. Ending the Blight is the primary goal, not making friends. Neglecting Zevran is a very minor thing compared to you recruiting the murderer of the king, grey wardens and alistair's father figure Duncan. Zevran in this case is the one overreacting, not Alistair.

It was because of Loghain that the stakes to kill the Blight are higher. He was responsible for the massacre of so many Grey Wardens. It defies logic for you to want to recruit him, then blame Alistair for feeling angry?

All you did was leave Zevran alone for the sake of strengthening your main party members for the Blight, and that is good enough reason for Zevran to backstab you.
You recruit a mass murdererer and traitor to end the Blight, and Alistair is not right to leave you?

Conclusion: People who justify Zevran's actions for backstabbing the main character, have no right to judge Alistair for turning his back on the main character.

Modifié par Original182, 23 décembre 2009 - 06:28 .

[magickingdom]

Seems like this tread is way off course from the game.

[Namirsolo]

It's not me saying that Zevran wanted to die. He says it himself. I'm guessing that this must be part of the romance dialogue. Then you can ask him if he still wants to die and he will say he just wants to begin again.

Why would his mind change about the death wish if you just sit him in camp and ignore him? Then he has all the time in the world to brood about his lost love (which isn't Taliesin, by the way). If you become friends/lovers with him he feels like he is an equal to you instead of your slave. Otherwise he probably worries about what will happen to him once the blight is ended. He tells you the Crows will come for him, and he probably doesn't want to be alone when that happens. He has a better chance of surviving it with you helping him. He probably didn't realize Taliesin would offer him a second chance with the Crows.

Alistair's "betrayal" makes perfect sense with his character, too. He idolized Duncan and the Grey Wardens are his life. Of course he is going to object vehemently to the person who "killed" Duncan joining the wardens.

My point is.. if you let Zevran live and never talk to him again then your argreement was just one of convenience. I don't blame him for wanting to drop it when a better offer comes along. He's not exactly emotionally invested in your plight because you didn't take any opportunity to talk to him about it. 

[Original182]

Namirsolo wrote...

It's not me saying that Zevran wanted to die. He says it himself. I'm guessing that this must be part of the romance dialogue. Then you can ask him if he still wants to die and he will say he just wants to begin again.

Why would his mind change about the death wish if you just sit him in camp and ignore him? Then he has all the time in the world to brood about his lost love (which isn't Taliesin, by the way). If you become friends/lovers with him he feels like he is an equal to you instead of your slave. Otherwise he probably worries about what will happen to him once the blight is ended. He tells you the Crows will come for him, and he probably doesn't want to be alone when that happens. He has a better chance of surviving it with you helping him. He probably didn't realize Taliesin would offer him a second chance with the Crows.

Alistair's "betrayal" makes perfect sense with his character, too. He idolized Duncan and the Grey Wardens are his life. Of course he is going to object vehemently to the person who "killed" Duncan joining the wardens.

My point is.. if you let Zevran live and never talk to him again then your argreement was just one of convenience. I don't blame him for wanting to drop it when a better offer comes along. He's not exactly emotionally invested in your plight because you didn't take any opportunity to talk to him about it. 

Dude I have no bone to pick with you, because you are a reasonable dude who also understands why Alistair reacted the way he did. I was caught up with a few other posts because they support Zevran's actions, but condemn Alistair. I want them to admit their inconsistency for fun.

Zevran was trained as an assassin, and trained to survive, so yes I agree that it is very much like him to backstab you. His whole life revolved at surviving at all costs.

But still, backstabbing you after you showed him mercy still crosses the line. So in context with my very first post, yes Zevran did what he had to do. Players who hate him also are not wrong in doing what they have to do, and kill him in future games. Because that is what Zevran would do to them anyway.

[Sabriana]

I've never read anywhere that Taliesen was Zevran's lover. But he was a trusted friend, trusted enough to talk Zevran into turning on Rinna, a fellow assassin that he (Zevran) really felt a lot for.



As pointed out repeatedly, Alistair deserts the Grey Wardens, Ferelden, and Duncan. I'd have no problem if he just turned his back on the group, even though he knows perfectly well that the Grey Warden 'do anything it takes' to eradicate the Blight. Heck, they don't even condemn Blood Magic. But not to fight? If I had seen even a glimpse of Alistair on the roof of Fort Drakon, I'd not despise him so much, but no. He knows that every Grey Warden is desperately needed, but he betrays just about everyone because of one person's decision.



It negates the whole 'there's no turning back' and the 'secrets about the Grey Wardens can never be trusted to an outsider'. If Jory has to die for trying to back out, so should Alistair.



Zevran never turned on my PC. There's no need to romance him for that either. Just getting a high enough regard is enough. And all those saying that he keeps coming on to their PC, I don't understand. When my girl went 'romanceless' for a playthrough, just telling him that she's not interested was enough for Zevran to back off, and he became a loyal friend instead.



Letting him live and then dumping him into camp, ignoring him, and treating him badly is hardly a mercy, but more akin to torture. How can he discern what is in store for him with the PC. Yes, he has sworn loyalty, but no one wants to hang around wondering whether there is a future ahead. He desperately needs protection from the Crows, but he can't assume that he'd get it from the PC and her/his group if treated like a piece of garbage at worst, or a piece of furniture at best.



In that case (ignore, abuse, dumping him) it might truly be best to kill him outright at the very beginning. Better for him and better for the PC.

[Original182]

Sabriana wrote...
As pointed out repeatedly, Alistair deserts the Grey Wardens, Ferelden, and Duncan. I'd have no problem if he just turned his back on the group, even though he knows perfectly well that the Grey Warden 'do anything it takes' to eradicate the Blight. Heck, they don't even condemn Blood Magic. But not to fight? If I had seen even a glimpse of Alistair on the roof of Fort Drakon, I'd not despise him so much, but no. He knows that every Grey Warden is desperately needed, but he betrays just about everyone because of one person's decision.

Again I think people gloss over the decision like it's nothing. I really don't want to bring in a potentially inflammatory real life topic, but recruiting Loghain would be akin to recruiting a terrorist into your army. It's not just "one person's decision". You're recruiting a mass murderer and traitor like Loghain. It's not a small thing to gloss over!

It negates the whole 'there's no turning back' and the 'secrets about the Grey Wardens can never be trusted to an outsider'. If Jory has to die for trying to back out, so should Alistair.

Well technically, I think there's no turning back applies only to the Joining. Alistair took his Joining, Ser Jory didn't.

Zevran never turned on my PC. There's no need to romance him for that either. Just getting a high enough regard is enough. And all those saying that he keeps coming on to their PC, I don't understand. When my girl went 'romanceless' for a playthrough, just telling him that she's not interested was enough for Zevran to back off, and he became a loyal friend instead.

I think having a relationship with someone else will stop his harrassment. Otherwise he'll keep going "Alright, but I get to stare at you luridly."

Letting him live and then dumping him into camp, ignoring him, and treating him badly is hardly a mercy, but more akin to torture. How can he discern what is in store for him with the PC. Yes, he has sworn loyalty, but no one wants to hang around wondering whether there is a future ahead. He desperately needs protection from the Crows, but he can't assume that he'd get it from the PC and her/his group if treated like a piece of garbage at worst, or a piece of furniture at best.

In that case (ignore, abuse, dumping him) it might truly be best to kill him outright at the very beginning. Better for him and better for the PC.

I can't believe I'm hearing this insanity. It is better to kill someone than....gasp, leave people alone? That means all lonely people in the world should be killed off then!

Ok you used "abuse" and "ignore" interchangeably, but they are both totally different things.

I'll agree with you on this, if you had abused or treated Zevran badly, then he has the right to backstab you. Because you asked for it, and it'll be an eye for an eye.

But backstabbing you for leaving Zevran alone? That's the worst case of over-reaction!

The Grey Warden already showed mercy when he could have killed Zevran. There is no reason for Zevran to fear the Grey Warden. If he had wanted Zevran dead, he would be already. Showing him mercy is enough proof that you don't need to fear the Grey Warden in future.

Ok my head hurts. I'll just write you off as a fan of the Zevran fan club, and it'll explain away everything. I can't take this anymore lol.

[Sabriana]

Please do not call me insane, this is a game, and everyone has a different opinion and different views, as well as the right to voice them.

I don't use the terms interchangeably, but a man with Zevran's background would even find being ignored highly dangerous for his continued well-being. Can he rely on the PC's protection? Is he cannon fodder?

That's how I see the character, that you don't is your right which I would never question. Let us discuss the issue, not judge personal opinion on a sanity/insanity scale that exists for you on different terms than for others. I think if you don't want to use him, why let him live in the first place. He tried to kill you, after all, so why just dump him in a camp without trying to get to know him?

To you, obviously, just letting someone live is a mercy. To others, death is sometimes merciful. It is all a personal pov. To me, letting Loghain live by having him become that what he loathed, fought, and sought to eradicate is a far better punishment. Let him live and become tied to that which he despises: the Wardens all over Thedas, including Orlais. Let him be stripped of all titles and claims of a noble, his commands, everything, and to top it off, let him go to the Deep Roads at the end to die fighting darkspawn.

My way to look at and play this game is that I dislike Alistair, but I dislike Anora more. I harden Alistair, put Anora in the tower, recruit Loghain and have him sacrifice himself by rejecting Morrigan's deal. My favorite companions are my dog, Shale, Oghren, Wynne, and Zevran. Bummer that I can't take them all with me at the same time. But that's just me, you see.

As for his responses when you reject his advances on the outset, all I get is "you call?" The 'luridly' part comes only when I don't make it absolutely clear that his advances are definitely unwanted. If it's a glitch in my game, I don't want that fixed.

[robertthebard]

Ah Alistair, how some worship the ground you walk on, despite that ground being every bit as tainted as a Brood Mother.

Alistair at Flemeth's hut:  "Loghain must be brought to justice for what he's done".  Note that any discussion with Alistair about what Loghain has done revolves directly around Duncan's death.  From all available evidence, Alistair would have been all peachy with what happens at Ostagar if Duncan had survived.  The only time Cailin comes into the equation is when he gives the speech at Denerim when you go in for the final battle.  However, this is a minor set back in his character.

The best way to bring Loghain to justice is for the King to see to it that it happens.  Well, that can't happen, because Cailin is dead.  Except that there is a surviving heir to the throne alive and emotionally unstable, standing right beside you at Flemeth's hut.  Ok, so he doesn't trust Flemeth, being as she's the Witch of the Wilds.  That's understandable, she only saved our lives, and the only payment she asked is us taking Morrigan with us.  That raises all kinds of "what's she up to" flags with me.  Except that it really doesn't.  At this point, there is no reason not to take her at her word that the Blight would consume even her.  It is even likely that she knows Alistair's little secret any way.  She did seem to know that Jory was going to be a non-factor, but that is neither here nor there, and is, to quote Flemeth, "largely irrelevant to the scheme of things".

Barring an ambush to get Dog, if you don't already have him, Alistair spends the whole journey to Lothering contemplating his navel.  We get this indicated by Morrigan, but he freely admits it.  Again, his overwhelming grief is because Duncan is dead, as we can definitely say that he's not close to Cailin.  So the "lost somebody close to you" line can only apply to Duncan.  What a prince, eh?  His solution to bring Loghain to justice?  Continue to ignore the fact that he's a viable candidate for the throne, and that with the throne, he can bring Loghain to justice.  Yeah, he's a real prince, isn't he?  Of course, I've heard all about how he doesn't owe me that information, I'm not entitled to know.  You do of course realize that if Morrigan's lie of omission about the ritual is bad at this point, Alistair's lie of omission is also bad.  Lying cannot be both evil and good.  However, Morrigan is condemned for hers, and it seems that by some, Alistair is applauded for his.  This is a consistent theme with Alistair fans.  However, it's pretty safe to assume that we haven't really spent a lot of time talking strategy to this point, however, this is about to change.

Before we enter Lothering, Alistair throws the first of many fits.  This time, he wants to know what you plan to do?!?  So we're going to have a strategy session.  This would be a good time to put all our cards on the table, yes?  No.  It's not a good time.  Alistair wants all your cards on the table, but wants to continue holding his trump card to his chest.  This is where the lie really starts to come into play.  It is a consistent theme with him until you go to Redcliffe, and beyond that if you don't have him with you when you go the first time.  So he wants to follow your lead, but he doesn't trust you?  Why then, would he follow you?  Why, if Eamon is "our best chance for help" would he not push to go to Redcliffe first?  Simple, the longer he puts off going to Redcliffe, the longer he can keep his little secret.  This is why he'll happily, or not so happily, depending on how his fickle approval system is running at each of the treaties, follow you to do all the treaties, and anything else you may do before you finally go to Redcliffe.  He's in no hurry to let the cat out of the bag.  If he really believes what he tells you at Flemeth's hut, and at Lothering, about Eamon being the best chance for help, why would he not push to go there first?  This is where his second lie comes in, but this one isn't a lie of omission.  He states that he will do whatever you want to do.

Now, on the surface, this doesn't seem like a lie.  As he will follow you through all the twists and turns you have to go through for the treaties.  If you're playing a female character, he may very well "fall in love" with you.  Yes, that's in quotes, because he can't really be in love with you, since that would imply a level of trust that he's not capable of.  But Rob, that's a harsh assessment!  Really?  I find it quite accurate, since he still won't volunteer his trump card unless you are on the way to Redcliffe for the first time.  But Rob, he volunteers the information then, how can he not trust you?  He volunteers the information then because he knows if we walk into Eamon's chambers and can talk to him, Eamon is going to spill the beans.  I have postulated that he hopes that Eamon dies before you go to Redcliffe.  Nothing in his dialog implies this, however, everything he chooses to leave out of the dialog does.  After all, if Eamon dies, he won't have to tell you anything.  Nothing in his character, if you save Redcliffe for last, since you don't have a treaty there, suggests that he would tell you.

But Rob, surely he'd tell you then, wouldn't he?  Why?  His secret is safe, and now the depth of his lack of trust of you becomes evident.  In conversations in camp, you can ask him directly if he knows who his father is.  He lies.  This is his third lie, differentiated from the lie of omission because you ask him directly, and he chooses to lie.  But Rob, how can you say it's because he doesn't trust you?  If he trusted me, he would have come forward with this information.  It's not like it isn't important to us, since we don't know that we can put Anora back on the throne and overthrow Loghain's power base.  While Loghain is Regent to the Queen, we surely can't bring him to justice.

So now, here we are, if we've done all the treaties before we go, after about a year traveling together, with a female PC we may even be in a romance with him, and now, if we bring him to Redcliffe the first time we go, we find out he's the heir apparent to the throne.  Holy crap, he didn't think that was important enough to tell me well before now?  Now, I can metagame my responses from here on out, and everything is all peachy.  But if you try to RP how you feel about finding this out, it's a big crime in Alistair's eyes.  In camp, you can have a discussion with him about this, and if you say you don't know who he is anymore, which is the truth, btw, since everything you thought you knew about Alistair is now brought into question, he throws a hissy fit in camp.  The end result is that you are expected to apologize to him for him lying to you since you met.  Now, and this is a real kick in the balls, when you do try to apologize to him, he's a real jerk about it.  So much so, in fact, that the writers included "Or you could just be an ass about it" in the dialog.  He is being an ass, not just in his attitude about the way you reacted to him being heir apparent, but in his feeling like you owe him an apology for your reaction to his lying to you.

Now, why has he lied about this from the start?  While Cailin was alive, it was made clear that he was supposed to not seek out the throne.  "No revolutions, Alistair".  At least, this is what he tells us.  It's not farfetched to believe this, however.  However, after Cailin is dead, it's not likely to be seen as much of a revolution, only one noble that we can eavesdrop on prior to the Landsmeet is really objectionable to continuing the line on the throne with a bastard.  The rest would, like Eamon, rather that his bloodline stay there.  But this isn't why he's been keeping it a secret.  He's afraid we'd look at him different, and try to make him be King.  So much for trusting us.  But Rob, you did look at him different, how was he wrong?  Yeah, after a year of traveling together, being lied to about who his father is, his little bomb took me by surprise, and I reflected that in my response.  Interesting to note, as well, that if you call him on being an ass during your apology, you lose 15 points of approval, and if you're in a romance, he breaks it off.  He's been lying to you since you met, and all of a sudden, you're not worthy.  Already, since he doesn't have to keep it a secret any more, he starts showing what kind of King he's going to be.  This is only amplified at the Landsmeet, it is not created there.

So you're traveling from one point to the next, and you get ambushed by this assassin.  You opt to talk to him instead of simply killing him, and end up recruiting him to your cause.  You then have the option of passing along some of the gifts you may have already acquired that are suited to him, and chatting him up, which is adviseable, try to get the know the guy that you accepted into your party that was just trying to kill you.  Or, you can ignore him completely.  If you ignore him completely, or treat him badly while trying to get to know him, he turns on you when his past catches up with him.  If you have taken the time to chat him up, but haven't been overly friendly nor overly hostile, he may remain neutral.  If you have him friendly, he may join you for the fight.  So tell me, which is the worst betrayal?  The one you should have seen coming if you ignored Zevran, or the guy that has lied to you since you met him suddenly deciding that taking the throne to kill Loghain is better than letting the justice that has been decided by the Landsmeet be carried out.  I call your attention back to the first paragraph of this wall of text, and my apologies for it, where it says, Alistair:  Loghain must be brought to justice for what he's done.

[Original182]

Ho ho, and he makes an appearance.

Edit: Ok dude, I sort of glanced over your post, and you have shown that you have a good memory of what happens since Ostagar to Zevran's joining.

My conclusion is that you are trying to tell everyone you have a good memory. And I agree.

But what does this have to do with Zevran or Alistair?

Modifié par Original182, 23 décembre 2009 - 10:28 .

[robertthebard]

Original182 wrote...

Ho ho, and he makes an appearance.

Edit: Ok dude, I sort of glanced over your post, and you have shown that you have a good memory of what happens since Ostagar to Zevran's joining.

My conclusion is that you are trying to tell everyone you have a good memory. And I agree.

But what does this have to do with Zevran or Alistair?

Well, in my neck of the world, it's good morning to you too.

[Original182]

robertthebard wrote...

Original182 wrote...

Ho ho, and he makes an appearance.

Edit: Ok dude, I sort of glanced over your post, and you have shown that you have a good memory of what happens since Ostagar to Zevran's joining.

My conclusion is that you are trying to tell everyone you have a good memory. And I agree.

But what does this have to do with Zevran or Alistair?

Well, in my neck of the world, it's good morning to you too.

Good evening too. And you gotta summarize, coz your posts even scares people who agree with your viewpoint!

[robertthebard]

Sabriana wrote...

Please do not call me insane, this is a game, and everyone has a different opinion and different views, as well as the right to voice them.

I don't use the terms interchangeably, but a man with Zevran's background would even find being ignored highly dangerous for his continued well-being. Can he rely on the PC's protection? Is he cannon fodder?

That's how I see the character, that you don't is your right which I would never question. Let us discuss the issue, not judge personal opinion on a sanity/insanity scale that exists for you on different terms than for others. I think if you don't want to use him, why let him live in the first place. He tried to kill you, after all, so why just dump him in a camp without trying to get to know him?

To you, obviously, just letting someone live is a mercy. To others, death is sometimes merciful. It is all a personal pov. To me, letting Loghain live by having him become that what he loathed, fought, and sought to eradicate is a far better punishment. Let him live and become tied to that which he despises: the Wardens all over Thedas, including Orlais. Let him be stripped of all titles and claims of a noble, his commands, everything, and to top it off, let him go to the Deep Roads at the end to die fighting darkspawn.

My way to look at and play this game is that I dislike Alistair, but I dislike Anora more. I harden Alistair, put Anora in the tower, recruit Loghain and have him sacrifice himself by rejecting Morrigan's deal. My favorite companions are my dog, Shale, Oghren, Wynne, and Zevran. Bummer that I can't take them all with me at the same time. But that's just me, you see.

As for his responses when you reject his advances on the outset, all I get is "you call?" The 'luridly' part comes only when I don't make it absolutely clear that his advances are definitely unwanted. If it's a glitch in my game, I don't want that fixed.

The only way I could think of to make Loghain's punishment worse is if I could find a way to make him Orlesian.

[ejoslin]

Original182 wrote...



Yeah but the same can be said for Alistair, you cannot pidgeon hole Alistair into what he does whether you recruit Loghain or not. Not only that, people have claimed that Alistair is very well written. But you don't give him the benefit of the doubt below, like how you're giving Zevran.

I can also ask, will Alistair leave you if you respect his wishes that Loghain be executed, which is completely justifiable considering Loghain killed the king, grey wardens, his father figure duncan, and also placed the blame on the grey wardens? No he won't, he will stick by you till the very end, even offering to sacrifice himself so that YOU may live.

My friend bard named robert will also start wild speculations that Alistair wasn't trying to be a hero when he sacrificed himself, and that he was actually running away from his responsibilities as king. Much like how Zevran was running way from reality by trying to get himself killed when he accepted the mission to kill you because of what happened to his former love? But of course, if Zevran does it, he's a complex character that is misunderstood, confused, etc. But if Alistair does it, he's a wimp.

Now you're saying if Zevran doesn't like you, it's ok for him to turn on you.
So using the same logic, if Alistair doesn't like you, it's ok for him to leave you too. Why not?

No, Zevran stayed with you because he thought he could never return to the Crows for failing to kill the Grey Warden. Since it meant death, he thought he would have a better chance to live by being with you, seeing as the Grey Warden is the sort to give the Crows pause.

He backstabbed the Grey Warden not because he has higher loyalty for Taliesan, but because it was a chance for him to return to the Crows, something he thought was not possible.

Ah but Zevran also has an oath to the Antivan Crows. How come him betraying them to be with you is ok, but Alistair abandoning the Grey Wardens is not? How come Zevran breaking oaths here and there is ok, but Alistair breaking his oath is not? Regardless of how big or small the consequences are, an oath is an oath.

If Zevran had killed you in Taliesan's ambush, you would have died, and there would be 1 less Grey Warden in Ferelden to tackle the Blight. Stakes are pretty high too. Alistair only LEFT the party, with maybe an angry look at you. Alistair's crime is much less, yet he is condemned much more than Zevran.

Then Zevran should not have betrayed you as well. He should also have understood that the Grey Warden's time is better spent on the party that he/she favors, whether Zevran likes it or not. Ending the Blight is the primary goal, not making friends. Neglecting Zevran is a very minor thing compared to you recruiting the murderer of the king, grey wardens and alistair's father figure Duncan. Zevran in this case is the one overreacting, not Alistair.

It was because of Loghain that the stakes to kill the Blight are higher. He was responsible for the massacre of so many Grey Wardens. It defies logic for you to want to recruit him, then blame Alistair for feeling angry?

All you did was leave Zevran alone for the sake of strengthening your main party members for the Blight, and that is good enough reason for Zevran to backstab you.
You recruit a mass murdererer and traitor to end the Blight, and Alistair is not right to leave you?

Conclusion: People who justify Zevran's actions for backstabbing the main character, have no right to judge Alistair for turning his back on the main character.

A couple of points.  Zevran betrays YOU, but Alistair betrays the Gray Wardens and the people he was sworn to protect.  Zevran also does not hide the fact that he's there for protection from the Crows.  Zevran is forced to choose between the PC and his former best friend and lover -- how you have behaved towards him will determine what that choice is.  Zevran also knows he can't kill you, Taliesen can't kill you; that last betrayal would be an act of love and caring for someone who was trying to save him.  BUT another point is it's hard, really really hard, to get Zev to betray you.  The slightest kindness, and he's your man forever.

When Alistair sacrifices himself (not sure how it drifted to THIS, but whatever), I selected the dialog calling him a coward and Alistair agrees.

I'm not sure how you can compare Zevran and Alistair and their circumstances or reactions.  One is a strong, very smart and wily man, the other is a weak, naive one who is not the sharpest (though not stupid by any means).  One rolls with the punches which is probably how he survived as long as he did, and the other is so sensitive it has the potential to destroy him.  But I like Alistair.  But he will betray you no matter how much he likes/loves you, no matter how much you trust him based on how he's behaved towards you.  A nobler reaction would be to hate you forever, but still defeat the blight and deal with Loghain after the battle.  Alistair is guided by his emotions and sense of duty, Zevran by his sense of self-preservation.

Wow, I cannot believe how strong my feelings are for both these fictional characters.

Modifié par ejoslin, 23 décembre 2009 - 12:05 .

[Subject696]

Zevran can betray you?

hmm I always liket the little elf