116 réponses à ce sujet

[ejoslin]

Subject696 wrote...

Zevran can betray you?
hmm I always liket the little elf

Only if he really doesn't like you.  It probably will never happen to my PC. 

[Antikristine]

ejoslin wrote...

I'm not sure how you can compare Zevran and Alistair and their circumstances or reactions.  One is a strong, very smart and wily man, the other is a weak, naive one who is not the sharpest (though not stupid by any means).  One rolls with the punches which is probably how he survived as long as he did, and the other is so sensitive it has the potential to destroy him.  But I like Alistair.  But he will betray you no matter how much he likes/loves you, no matter how much you trust him based on how he's behaved towards you.  A nobler reaction would be to hate you forever, but still defeat the blight and deal with Loghain after the battle.  Alistair is guided by his emotions and sense of duty, Zevran by his sense of self-preservation.

Well, I agree with the general differences between the two, but Alistair doesn't come off as a weak whiner if you harden him, or if you're romancing him. He needs appreciation, and once he gets that, he presents himself as a stronger character. I think his reaction during Landsmeet if you choose to recruit Loghain is completely in character. This is where he draws the line out of an extreme sense of duty to the Grey Wardens. I actually also think that the fact that he leaves you if you recruit Loghain shows that he is not as spineless as he appears to be - he actually stands up for something he believes in and refuses to follow you no more.

His background as a duty-bound follower is however something that makes us expect that he would stay no matter what, and I think expectation is at the core of how we interpret Alistair and Zevran's betrayals. We do not expect Alistair to leave, but Zevran is sent to assassinate the PC, so we have the idea in the back of our minds that he might try to kill the PC again - at least until otherwise has been proven.

[ejoslin]

Antikristine wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

I'm not sure how you can compare Zevran and Alistair and their circumstances or reactions.  One is a strong, very smart and wily man, the other is a weak, naive one who is not the sharpest (though not stupid by any means).  One rolls with the punches which is probably how he survived as long as he did, and the other is so sensitive it has the potential to destroy him.  But I like Alistair.  But he will betray you no matter how much he likes/loves you, no matter how much you trust him based on how he's behaved towards you.  A nobler reaction would be to hate you forever, but still defeat the blight and deal with Loghain after the battle.  Alistair is guided by his emotions and sense of duty, Zevran by his sense of self-preservation.

Well, I agree with the general differences between the two, but Alistair doesn't come off as a weak whiner if you harden him, or if you're romancing him. He needs appreciation, and once he gets that, he presents himself as a stronger character. I think his reaction during Landsmeet if you choose to recruit Loghain is completely in character. This is where he draws the line out of an extreme sense of duty to the Grey Wardens. I actually also think that the fact that he leaves you if you recruit Loghain shows that he is not as spineless as he appears to be - he actually stands up for something he believes in and refuses to follow you no more.

His background as a duty-bound follower is however something that makes us expect that he would stay no matter what, and I think expectation is at the core of how we interpret Alistair and Zevran's betrayals. We do not expect Alistair to leave, but Zevran is sent to assassinate the PC, so we have the idea in the back of our minds that he might try to kill the PC again - at least until otherwise has been proven.

Don't get me wrong, I love Alistair.  But he is weak.  Yes, he can be hardened and start looking out for himself, but even then, he needs a strong person to guide him.  As king, he will have the PC, Eamon, or Anora giving him that strength.  That's not necessarily a bad thing; he's very human, not a leader, but has a strong sense of right and wrong and with backing, will follow through on it.  I think what Alistair loves about the female PC is her strength.

And there's a bit of difference between a back bone and a temper tantrum.  I do understand Alistair's reaction, and it IS in character. But it's one guided by emotion.  The PC cannot have any love for Loghain, but is the stronger, more pragmatic one (heh, achievement, Pragmatist) who puts her emotions aside and does what is best to stop the blight as that is the most pressing issue.  The fact that Alistair cannot do that is a sign of his weakness, but that is not necessarily BAD.  It's who he is.  If his heart wasn't on his sleeve, so many female gamers wouldn't love him.  I know I fell in love with him for that reason.

[Antikristine]

ejoslin wrote...
And there's a bit of difference between a back bone and a temper tantrum.  I do understand Alistair's reaction, and it IS in character. But it's one guided by emotion.  The PC cannot have any love for Loghain, but is the stronger, more pragmatic one (heh, achievement, Pragmatist) who puts her emotions aside and does what is best to stop the blight as that is the most pressing issue.  The fact that Alistair cannot do that is a sign of his weakness, but that is not necessarily BAD.  It's who he is.  If his heart wasn't on his sleeve, so many female gamers wouldn't love him.  I know I fell in love with him for that reason.

Exactly. Alistair is guided too much by emotion and too little by reason when he leaves. This is in character for him, but it is also somewhat unexpected because he is a very duty-bound follower.

Anyway, this is a thread about Zevran's betrayal, not Alistair's....

[Subject696]

ejoslin wrote...

Subject696 wrote...

Zevran can betray you?
hmm I always liket the little elf

Only if he really doesn't like you.  It probably will never happen to my PC. 

 
then it wont happen to me hahaha:wizard:

[XOGHunter246]

Yeah Alistair he stand up for what he believes in at landsmeet and turns into a drunk bum if not hardened lol like i told him in start "way to make a stand". I have found him and some other characters at times a bit of a hypocrite thats just my opinion. 

Even Duncan would of recruited someone if it meant more wardens for Archdemon, Alistair could of been more grown up about then abandoning his job. Fair enough loghain killed his half brother but as the warden population was low enough as it was it would only make sense to add another warden thats if you thinking about the Archdemon and not not personal feeling. 
Instead he let his sensitivity get to him and leaves he goes on so much about Duncan maybe he should also act a bit like him instead of a baby.

Modifié par XOGHunter246, 23 décembre 2009 - 12:57 .

[Creature 1]

There's a simple solution to the problem of recruiting Loghain to help defeat the Archdemon.  In the TV series Angel Lindsey McDonald is a long-time enemy of Angel and his friends, but sides with them at the end of the series because they had a common enemy.  After the enemy was defeated Angel, well, terminated the alliance.  We should be able to do the same with Loghain--I'm sure Zevran would be happy to help out. 

[ejoslin]

Sabriana wrote...

I've never read anywhere that Taliesen was Zevran's lover. But he was a trusted friend, trusted enough to talk Zevran into turning on Rinna, a fellow assassin that he (Zevran) really felt a lot for.
.

if Zev is below adore and leaves you for the fight, he tells Taliesen, "we were friends and more than friends," or something to that effect.  I suppose he may not have meant they were lovers I suppose, but given Zevran's history, it's pretty likely they were.  

Edit: Also, it would explain why Taliesen both convinced Zev that Rinna needed to die AND why Taliesen took the contract to try to get Zevran back to him alive.  But so much is open to individual interpretation.

Modifié par ejoslin, 23 décembre 2009 - 02:45 .

[Sialater]

ejoslin wrote...

Sabriana wrote...

I've never read anywhere that Taliesen was Zevran's lover. But he was a trusted friend, trusted enough to talk Zevran into turning on Rinna, a fellow assassin that he (Zevran) really felt a lot for.
.

if Zev is below adore and leaves you for the fight, he tells Taliesen, "we were friends and more than friends," or something to that effect.  I suppose he may not have meant they were lovers I suppose, but given Zevran's history, it's pretty likely they were.  

Edit: Also, it would explain why Taliesen both convinced Zev that Rinna needed to die AND why Taliesen took the contract to try to get Zevran back to him alive.  But so much is open to individual interpretation.

I always took it to mean Taliesin was the ex and the PC was the current. 

[ejoslin]

Sialater wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

Sabriana wrote...

I've never read anywhere that Taliesen was Zevran's lover. But he was a trusted friend, trusted enough to talk Zevran into turning on Rinna, a fellow assassin that he (Zevran) really felt a lot for.
.

if Zev is below adore and leaves you for the fight, he tells Taliesen, "we were friends and more than friends," or something to that effect.  I suppose he may not have meant they were lovers I suppose, but given Zevran's history, it's pretty likely they were.  

Edit: Also, it would explain why Taliesen both convinced Zev that Rinna needed to die AND why Taliesen took the contract to try to get Zevran back to him alive.  But so much is open to individual interpretation.

I always took it to mean Taliesin was the ex and the PC was the current. 

Yeh, if you tell Taliesen that Zevran belongs with you now, Talisen does get pretty upset and says you know nothing of Zevran (I love Zevran's response to that).  They just do seem like they were lovers.

Modifié par ejoslin, 23 décembre 2009 - 02:55 .

[Antikristine]

ejoslin wrote...

Yeh, if you tell Taliesen that Zevran belongs with you now, Talisen does get pretty upset and says you know nothing of Zevran (I love Zevran's response to that).  They just do seem like they were lovers.

I never actually interpreted what that meant. I just assumed they had been very close as Crows, and whether or not they had been sleeping together is irrelevant. But judging Zev's character, I guess they were if Taliesin was swinging that way.

[Sialater]

To paraphrase Zevran, "The Crows take only the most 'open-minded' of apprentices."

[Original182]

Yeah it doesn't necessarily mean they are lovers. It is possible they are best mates, and you claiming Zevran belongs to you could be interpreted by him as meaning Zevran disowned the Crows out of his own free will.

[ejoslin]

Antikristine wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

Yeh, if you tell Taliesen that Zevran belongs with you now, Talisen does get pretty upset and says you know nothing of Zevran (I love Zevran's response to that).  They just do seem like they were lovers.

I never actually interpreted what that meant. I just assumed they had been very close as Crows, and whether or not they had been sleeping together is irrelevant. But judging Zev's character, I guess they were if Taliesin was swinging that way.

But it isn't irrelevant if their relationship was one of lovers as it obviously was not casual.  Taliesen obviously wanted Zevran with him, and Zevran's choice in the matter depended entirely on his relationship with the PC.  And it makes his betrayal an issue of who he cares for most, not just "breaking his oath."  Taliesen does prove to Zevran in that sequence how important Zev is to him.

Ah, more  on my part here.

[ejoslin]

Original182 wrote...

Yeah it doesn't necessarily mean they are lovers. It is possible they are best mates, and you claiming Zevran belongs to you could be interpreted by him as meaning Zevran disowned the Crows out of his own free will.

It is possible. But usually when someone describes someone as more than a friend, they mean a lover but not an exclusive mate.  And Taliesen was willing to risk his own life to get Zevran back by his side.  I know guys can be close and all and that doesn't necessarily mean lovers, but Taliesen accepting a contract that he has no intention of fulfilling so he can try to save Zev is a bit above and beyond for just friends.  As is Taiesen convincing Zevran that Rinna must die.  It makes sense if Taliesen sees Zev's feelings for Rinna if his feelings are stronger than just friendship.

But it IS open to individual interpretation.

Modifié par ejoslin, 23 décembre 2009 - 03:41 .

[Sialater]

ejoslin wrote...

Original182 wrote...

Yeah it doesn't necessarily mean they are lovers. It is possible they are best mates, and you claiming Zevran belongs to you could be interpreted by him as meaning Zevran disowned the Crows out of his own free will.

It is possible. But usually when someone describes someone as more than a friend, they mean a lover but not an exclusive mate.  And Taliesen was willing to risk his own life to get Zevran back by his side.  I know guys can be close and all and that doesn't necessarily mean lovers, but Taliesen accepting a contract that he has no intention of fulfilling so he can try to save Zev is a bit above and beyond for just friends.  As is Taiesen convincing Zevran that Rinna must die.  It makes sense if Taliesen sees Zev's feelings for Rinna if his feelings are stronger than just friendship.

But it IS open to individual interpretation.

Does it matter if they were lovers?  Or that Taliesin is manipulating things to make sure Zevran doesn't leave him for a woman? Or a man?  You know Zevran is what he is, at that point it doesn't matter.

[ejoslin]

Sialater wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

Original182 wrote...

Yeah it doesn't necessarily mean they are lovers. It is possible they are best mates, and you claiming Zevran belongs to you could be interpreted by him as meaning Zevran disowned the Crows out of his own free will.

It is possible. But usually when someone describes someone as more than a friend, they mean a lover but not an exclusive mate.  And Taliesen was willing to risk his own life to get Zevran back by his side.  I know guys can be close and all and that doesn't necessarily mean lovers, but Taliesen accepting a contract that he has no intention of fulfilling so he can try to save Zev is a bit above and beyond for just friends.  As is Taiesen convincing Zevran that Rinna must die.  It makes sense if Taliesen sees Zev's feelings for Rinna if his feelings are stronger than just friendship.

But it IS open to individual interpretation.

Does it matter if they were lovers?  Or that Taliesin is manipulating things to make sure Zevran doesn't leave him for a woman? Or a man?  You know Zevran is what he is, at that point it doesn't matter.

Oh, I doubt the PC cares one way or the other.  But for story reasons, I find it relevant.  It just shows the betrayal, IF Zev betrays you, in a very different light.