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[sH0tgUn jUliA]

Isichar wrote...

SeptimusMagistos wrote...

Isichar wrote...

Shepard was always going to stay true to his beliefs.

I won't let fear compromise who I am.

Low odds in conventional warfare? Screw the odds I'm commander Shepard!

Well, it sounds like the odds...

have screwed you.

Seriously though, I'm happy for you, but you have to realize that most Shepard's stuck by their beliefs. It's just that their beliefs don't necessarily stop them from picking an ending.

Heck, my Shepard spent the entire ME2 cooperating with Cerberus. He can handle cooperating with the Catalyst for the fifteen seconds it takes him to shuffle over to his preferred plot device.

Just to clarify choosing to shoot the starchild in the head is still picking an ending, just not the one the catalyst wanted.

Of course not. It wanted Synthesis. You refused to use the Crucible. It is plenty content to continue its default function of reaping. That's its third choice, and it's a perfectly acceptable solution. The thing it doesn't want you to do is destroy it. That's why it's being nice. You have a big assed gun pointed at its head, but you can only hold it there for so long before the reapers destroy the fleet protecting it. Once the fleet is destroyed, you're screwed. That's why it's kind of in a hurry. I wants you to pick synthesis during that time window.

Here's how I figured it ranked from it's responses to inquiries:

1st Choice: Synthesis -- yes yes yes (its own design -- you protected it enough to power this)
2nd Choice: Control -- at least you didn't destroy it (designed by indoctrinated scientists)
3rd Choice: Continue Reaping -- the AI's default function -- refuse to use the crucible
4th Choice: Being Destroyed -- the original design of the crucible

BTW, my Shepard isn't letting fear compromise who she is. She is the Avatar of Vengeance for those whom the reapers and their allies have killed. She fights for those she loves. She fights because she must. She will complete her mission no matter the cost. She has to make a horrible choice, and she will not blink.

Control: "I will not give up anything."
Synthesis: "I will not impose that on every living being."
Starbrat: "Why not? You are part synthetic. Can you imagine your life without them?"
Shepard (angrily): "I've made my choice. Let's get this done."

[Goneaviking]

robertthebard wrote...

3DandBeyond wrote...

If you figured out that shooting the kid or refusing his choices would instantly kill everyone without knowing about it that's one thing.  I think you're psychic.  But if it surprised you when you first shot the kid or refused the choices, then refuse is a valid choice for Shepard to make.

Sorry to snip this post, but I replied to it above, and just wanted to touch on something that just occured to me in re-reading, and didn't want to ninja edit my other post.

Refuse is a valid choice, even if you know what the consequences are.  There could easily be a Self Righteous Paragon that figures it's better to wipe the slate and let the galaxy start over than to save the current cycle.

The solution to the Rachni Problem?  Kill 'em all.  The solution to the species that killed 'em all for us, and then wanted room to grow?  The Genophage.  Note that the Krogan are also at fault for how they chose to expand.  Once the Reaper threat is uncovered, what did the Council races, including Human do?  Stuck their heads in the sand, and hung Shepard out to dry for the Alpha Relay incident, despite understanding that it was necessary.  I could go on, but you get the idea here.  It wouldn't be hard to justify it even going Paragon, if you looked at the whole story arc, including events that transpired before Shepard was born, some of them well before.  Yes, a lot of good is going to be lost, but enough bad is going to be lost, some of it directly tied to the events at hand, such as the Salarian's back room dealings, and the Asari choosing to stay on the sidelines, until they realized that they weren't as superior as they thought.  However, it is done understanding exactly what will happen, and being willing to accept the consequences.  A concept that my Shepard is intimately familiar with.

I agree, my point of contention with 3DandBeyond as well as others, is that by making that decision you are taking responsibility for this cycle's harvesting. Some people have argued that refusing is taking a moral stand for Shepard's principles - fair enough, but it's only a moral stand if he take responsibility for the consequences of his decision.

In this scenario the reapers may be conducting the actual genocide, but only because Shepard chose to allow it.

[Urdnot_Bucdawg]

Isichar wrote...

Cthulhu42 wrote...

You know that the Crucible does things other that Synthesis right?

Yeah, 1 option forces you to commit genocide and damage most technology (Ignoring the issue of how many races actually are dependant on tech to survive) and the other lets me kill myself to create a new catalyst, oh joy.

You can't make an omelet without cracking a few eggs

[KiwiQuiche]

One of my Shepard's picked Refuse because she didn't believe a thing that came from that lunatic, genocial corrupted AI; she thought he was absolutely insane if he thought he could reason away his mass killings as a 'solution' that number in the trillions so she wasn't going to make any deals with the devil; she shot him in the head rather than listen to his insane ramblings and accept his lies.

She had no reason to believe the words of the Reaper Overlord and she refused control those monsters, merge her DNA with the universe or think that blowing up a tube would kill the Reapers, hence her reaction.

[Reorte]

KiwiQuiche wrote...

One of my Shepard's picked Refuse because she didn't believe a thing that came from that lunatic, genocial corrupted AI; she thought he was absolutely insane if he thought he could reason away his mass killings as a 'solution' that number in the trillions so she wasn't going to make any deals with the devil; she shot him in the head rather than listen to his insane ramblings and accept his lies.

She had no reason to believe the words of the Reaper Overlord and she refused control those monsters, merge her DNA with the universe or think that blowing up a tube would kill the Reapers, hence her reaction.

And how did she think that letting the Reapers continue would be better? I didn't accept the Catalyst's nonsesne when I picked Destroy but figured that it was hardly likely to make things any worse so what is there to lose? If it does what it says on the tin then no more Reapers. Sure, dead geth but what are their odds if I'm going to turn away and let the Reapers carry on? If it doesn't do what it says then only Synthesis would be worse (long term, possibly better short-term) than letting the Reapers carry on but since it seemed to be trying to talk me into picking that anyway I doubted that Destroy was Synthesis in disguise.

[KiwiQuiche]

Reorte wrote...

KiwiQuiche wrote...

One of my Shepard's picked Refuse because she didn't believe a thing that came from that lunatic, genocial corrupted AI; she thought he was absolutely insane if he thought he could reason away his mass killings as a 'solution' that number in the trillions so she wasn't going to make any deals with the devil; she shot him in the head rather than listen to his insane ramblings and accept his lies.

She had no reason to believe the words of the Reaper Overlord and she refused control those monsters, merge her DNA with the universe or think that blowing up a tube would kill the Reapers, hence her reaction.

And how did she think that letting the Reapers continue would be better? I didn't accept the Catalyst's nonsesne when I picked Destroy but figured that it was hardly likely to make things any worse so what is there to lose? If it does what it says on the tin then no more Reapers. Sure, dead geth but what are their odds if I'm going to turn away and let the Reapers carry on? If it doesn't do what it says then only Synthesis would be worse (long term, possibly better short-term) than letting the Reapers carry on but since it seemed to be trying to talk me into picking that anyway I doubted that Destroy was Synthesis in disguise.

...Because she wasn't going to just accept the word of the glowing manic responsible for the 55k yearly genocides?

[3DandBeyond]

Goneaviking wrote...


Shooting the kid is petulent regardless of the outcome you were expecting. Refusing to choose any of the options is choosing to let the Reapers continue their work.

It's that simple.

You didn't address my question.  Did you shoot the kid or refuse the choices and know what would happen?  Or were you surprised at the outcome of either of them?

It absolutely does matter if Shepard knew what refusing the choices would do to crucible.  Shepard and the player if not metagaming does not know that shooting the kid or refusing the choices shuts down the crucible.  Logically, a person could think that refusing the choices is just that and might have nothing to do with the crucible.  Refusing them might only shut them off and make the crucible work as what everyone thought it was, a weapon.  Did you know (if you were not told before hand) that shooting the kid or refusing the choices would do what they did?


And shooting at the kid is something no doubt almost every one of us did with the original endings and still did for the EC.  It is logical to want to see what happens.  And if we did it, why wouldn't Shepard do it?  Especially when the kid said he controls the reapers.  I tried shooting everything in the room after that to see if I could shut him down when I played to original endings.

Modifié par 3DandBeyond, 15 août 2012 - 12:12 .

[lillitheris]

Ah, another one who prefers to murder everyone in the galaxy because of ego.

…

3DAndBeyond: Essentially, Destroy is what you’re talking about. That’s the actual rejection of the Reapers. The gameplay mechanics are bad, but Refuse is “I will have nothing to do with this, we will go down fighting”, and Destroy is “Shut the hell up, I’m activating this thing.”

Also, free life advice: don’t go around shooting things because you want to see what happens

Modifié par lillitheris, 15 août 2012 - 12:15 .

[Pitznik]

I wonder if Crucible really goes offline after refuse, or Bioware just assumed Shepard made up his mind and won't change it, even given second chance, so they can proceed to the ending. It is rather silly to not have a chance of doing anything after the conversation. Are we supposed to assume Shepard just bled out or what?

[3DandBeyond]

lillitheris wrote...

Ah, another one who prefers to murder everyone in the galaxy because of ego.

…

3DAndBeyond:
Essentially, Destroy is what you’re talking about. That’s the actual
rejection of the Reapers. The gameplay mechanics are bad, but Refuse is
“I will have nothing to do with this, we will go down fighting”, and
Destroy is “Shut the hell up, I’m activating this thing.”

Also, free life advice: don’t go around shooting things because you want to see what happens [smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/joyful.png[/smilie]

Edited:No, I'm not.  I'm saying that a person could reasonably come to  consclusion the choices are questionable and not trust any of them.  And in talking with the kid people do shoot him to see what might happen or do refuse the choices and are surprised by what happen.  If that happens to players why couldn't that happen to Shepard?

Did you ever shoot the kid?

Modifié par 3DandBeyond, 15 août 2012 - 12:24 .

[ghost9191]

Wait what?

[lillitheris]

3DandBeyond wrote...

lillitheris wrote...

Ah, another one who prefers to murder everyone in the galaxy because of their fragile ego.

Very constructive.  An insult.  Mature.

Where does ego come into it at all?  It would be nice if people would actually attempt to discuss things without assuming they know what someone is saying, especially when they aren't even reading what anyone says.

This was directed at the OP. I tried to, you know, use your handle for the part that was at you <_<

But, yeah, the OP is refusing to compromise with the reapers because of ego. Clearly states so.

[3DandBeyond]

lillitheris wrote...

3DandBeyond wrote...

lillitheris wrote...

Ah, another one who prefers to murder everyone in the galaxy because of their fragile ego.

Very constructive.  An insult.  Mature.

Where does ego come into it at all?  It would be nice if people would actually attempt to discuss things without assuming they know what someone is saying, especially when they aren't even reading what anyone says.

This was directed at the OP. I tried to, you know, use your handle for the part that was at you <_<

But, yeah, the OP is refusing to compromise with the reapers because of ego. Clearly states so.

You posted the one sentence alone and then edited it.  That was directed at your original post not your edited one.  Once I saw your edit-I edited mine.

Modifié par 3DandBeyond, 15 août 2012 - 12:25 .

[JunMadine]

The answer should so that bioware developes dlc that when combined together with the game gives a ridiculous war asset number that eventually will allows us to win conventionally.

(Well I wish that would be true but life is not as kind as I would like it to be)

[ghost9191]

JunMadine wrote...

The answer should so that bioware developes dlc that when combined together with the game gives a ridiculous war asset number that eventually will allows us to win conventionally.

(Well I wish that would be true but life is not as kind as I would like it to be)

 

said it 2 months ago and will say it again, that was what i hoped for

but i don't hold so much hope now, can't take teh sad:crying:

mass effect can't die here, and by that i mean as of now, unless they choose a ending as cannon there is no way to continue on. not just shepards story but another omass effect in the future of the ME universe.

not just prequel, as it stands i am not that interested in a game that takes place before ME123, not with how it ended

in short i agree with the idea that the more dlc's the better your chances of winning in refusal, watch as all your war assets destroy the reapers, yeah there will be a cost , but that is war, and probably no more then destroying a race of synthetics

[lillitheris]

3DandBeyond wrote...

Edited:No, I'm not.  I'm saying that a person could reasonably come to  consclusion the choices are questionable and not trust any of them.  And in talking with the kid people do shoot him to see what might happen or do refuse the choices and are surprised by what happen.  If that happens to players why couldn't that happen to Shepard?

Outright not believing the Catalyst is not part of the game. It’s a terrible omission, but there you go. Somehow you’re convinced that the options offered are genuine at least to the extent of the Catalyst’s own knowledge, perhaps subject to its interpretation and preferences…but still there.

My semi-headcanon is that Destroy is saying no to the Catalyst’s plans, and destroying the equipment that is preventing the Crucible from firing normally.

Did you ever shoot the kid?

No. I don’t shoot at everything that moves. Kids, particularly.

But, as I said, the gameplay mechanics are crap—and in this case can’t really be used to justify a choice. Just imagine that shooting the projection does nothing, if it makes you feel better.

[3DandBeyond]

Pitznik wrote...

I wonder if Crucible really goes offline after refuse, or Bioware just assumed Shepard made up his mind and won't change it, even given second chance, so they can proceed to the ending. It is rather silly to not have a chance of doing anything after the conversation. Are we supposed to assume Shepard just bled out or what?

This is what I'm saying.  We assume Shepard knows the crucible will shut down if s/he shoots or refuses.  Shepard could think any number of things will happen.  One might just be that the kid will go away and the crucible could be used.  It's possible to not trust what the kid says and reject him and choices he might be saying are real, but you fear are not or are some kind of trap.  It's possible to think the kid might be trying to stop you from using the crucible for its purpose.

[3DandBeyond]

lillitheris wrote...



No. I don’t shoot at everything that moves. Kids, particularly.

But, as I said, the gameplay mechanics are crap—and in this case can’t really be used to justify a choice. Just imagine that shooting the projection does nothing, if it makes you feel better.

Well it isn't a kid.  And if you never shot it to see what might happen, then you are rare.  Did you refuse the choices to see what would happen?

And I didn't have to imagine anything.  Shooting him does something.  This isn't about feeling better.  It's just that people think shooting him or refusing the choices makes no sense, but many were surprised at what happened when they did it.  Many people thought that BW had actually made an ending toward victory in some way.  But they were just surprised it did something.

[3DandBeyond]

lillitheris wrote...





Outright not believing the Catalyst is not part of the game. It’s a terrible omission, but there you go. Somehow you’re convinced that the options offered are genuine at least to the extent of the Catalyst’s own knowledge, perhaps subject to its interpretation and preferences…but still there.

My semi-headcanon is that Destroy is saying no to the Catalyst’s plans, and destroying the equipment that is preventing the Crucible from firing normally.

snipped

Outright not believing the catalyst is part of the game-that's why a person refuses or rejects him and the choices.  A great many people have constantly said they can't find it possible to believe him without metagaming. 

I would not be convinced the choices are genuine..

And what you think Destroy does is what I think people see Shepard thinking refuse would do.  It destroys the kid and the choices (and destroy is one of the choices).

Modifié par 3DandBeyond, 15 août 2012 - 12:44 .

[LiarasShield]

Well I'm not willing to sacrifice the soul of our species to beat the reapers I will stick to what I feel is right even in the most hard and painful of situations

My shepard wants everyone to make their own choices and is willing to let herself and her forces fight to the end even if they do die because she does believe in freedom and does believe that everyone being wether organic or synthetic should be able to choose

And even if she failed the next cycle finds a solution and my headcannon is they found another way to beat the reapers without the crucible or was able to use the crucibles for new choices that were not provided in shepards generation


And You're willing to alter every single lifeform in order to save them in my eyes you would be no better then the reapers  thank god that me3 isn't real because if you did try to use the crucible to save people and tried to alter every being or thing in our universe I would be forced to stop you or knock you out so that you wouldn't do it

Yes I would die with my freewill intact I may be killed by the reapers but I wouldn't submit to their choices and I would die a noble warriors death which you may or may not understand


Better to die free then


Become A rogue Vi or ai that causes the reapers to attack organics again in the future And you think their is absolutely nothing wrong in this ending you're wrong if you helped the geth it doesn't matter you control them as well as the reapers the geth don't retain any free will or did you not see the geth side by side with the reapers in one of the slides?

Then splicing peoples dna to make them the same to establish some twisted paradise of peace by making everyone the same

Or by destroying my own allies to kill the reapers no

You think were monsters for letting everyone make their own choices even though we do die or fail well friend altering every creature or thing in the galaxy doesn't put you that much above us


And Yes I chose the moral high road and I don't regret it at all

[ghost9191]

well could be wrong, even though i am not. =)

but control and destroy would be options even if the catalyst was not there, shepard would be brought up to the platform to make the choice. Synthesis to me is the only option that is actually influenced by the catalyst

destroy is what it was made for ( not sayiing it is the right choice) control was add on

synthesis could only be achieved by shepard nd the catalyst, which they don't really explain

so in my eyes only option where you do what the catalyst wants is synthesis. control and destroy are what the crucible was made for, they would be there if the catalyst was not

[Goneaviking]

3DandBeyond wrote...

Goneaviking wrote...


Shooting the kid is petulent regardless of the outcome you were expecting. Refusing to choose any of the options is choosing to let the Reapers continue their work.

It's that simple.

You didn't address my question.  Did you shoot the kid or refuse the choices and know what would happen?  Or were you surprised at the outcome of either of them?

It absolutely does matter if Shepard knew what refusing the choices would do to crucible.  Shepard and the player if not metagaming does not know that shooting the kid or refusing the choices shuts down the crucible.  Logically, a person could think that refusing the choices is just that and might have nothing to do with the crucible.  Refusing them might only shut them off and make the crucible work as what everyone thought it was, a weapon.  Did you know (if you were not told before hand) that shooting the kid or refusing the choices would do what they did?


And shooting at the kid is something no doubt almost every one of us did with the original endings and still did for the EC.  It is logical to want to see what happens.  And if we did it, why wouldn't Shepard do it?  Especially when the kid said he controls the reapers.  I tried shooting everything in the room after that to see if I could shut him down when I played to original endings.

I didn't realize you were asking a question.

I never shot the catalyst kid because as much as I dislike these kind of arbitrary choice endings, it seemed petulent and impotent gesture. Was I surprised at the EC change? Mildly at most, although that was a metagaming response and with an interactive AI I doubt I'd be surprised if it took umbrage at the insult.

However that changes nothing. There is no meaningful difference between the AI turning off the Crucible because you've obviously decided not to trigger any of the device's functions and it simply not firing because you've refused to trigger any of the device's functions.

The meaningful result of not activating any of the options is that the Reaper's continue their work. 

Regardless of what any of us thought about the "cannot win conventionally" storyline, we knew the score well before we rushed the pillar of light in London. Any other outcome is the province of headcanon; I will not begrudge anyone that privilege but it doesn't change content in the game.

[ghost9191]

LiarasShield wrote...

Well I'm not willing to sacrifice the soul of our species to beat the reapers I will stick to what I feel is right even in the most hard and painful of situations

My shepard wants everyone to make their own choices and is willing to let herself and her forces fight to the end even if they do die because she does believe in freedom and does believe that everyone being wether organic or synthetic should be able to choose

And even if she failed the next cycle finds a solution and my headcannon is they found another way to beat the reapers without the crucible or was able to use the crucibles for new choices that were not provided in shepards generation


And You're willing to alter every single lifeform in order to save them in my eyes you would be no better then the reapers  thank god that me3 isn't real because if you did try to use the crucible to save people and tried to alter every being or thing in our universe I would be forced to stop you or knock you out so that you wouldn't do it

Yes I would die with my freewill intact I may be killed by the reapers but I wouldn't submit to their choices and I would die a noble warriors death which you may or may not understand


Better to die free then


Become A rogue Vi or ai that causes the reapers to attack organics again in the future And you think their is absolutely nothing wrong in this ending you're wrong if you helped the geth it doesn't matter you control them as well as the reapers the geth don't retain any free will or did you not see the geth side by side with the reapers in one of the slides?

Then splicing peoples dna to make them the same to establish some twisted paradise of peace by making everyone the same

Or by destroying my own allies to kill the reapers no

You think were monsters for letting everyone make their own choices even though we do die or fail well friend altering every creature or thing in the galaxy doesn't put you that much above us


And Yes I chose the moral high road and I don't regret it at all

wait wait wait, so you do not wish to sacrifice the soul but would be perfectly willing to sacrifice the species insteaad?

jsut a question

[LiarasShield]

ghost9191 wrote...

LiarasShield wrote...

Well I'm not willing to sacrifice the soul of our species to beat the reapers I will stick to what I feel is right even in the most hard and painful of situations

My shepard wants everyone to make their own choices and is willing to let herself and her forces fight to the end even if they do die because she does believe in freedom and does believe that everyone being wether organic or synthetic should be able to choose

And even if she failed the next cycle finds a solution and my headcannon is they found another way to beat the reapers without the crucible or was able to use the crucibles for new choices that were not provided in shepards generation


And You're willing to alter every single lifeform in order to save them in my eyes you would be no better then the reapers  thank god that me3 isn't real because if you did try to use the crucible to save people and tried to alter every being or thing in our universe I would be forced to stop you or knock you out so that you wouldn't do it

Yes I would die with my freewill intact I may be killed by the reapers but I wouldn't submit to their choices and I would die a noble warriors death which you may or may not understand


Better to die free then


Become A rogue Vi or ai that causes the reapers to attack organics again in the future And you think their is absolutely nothing wrong in this ending you're wrong if you helped the geth it doesn't matter you control them as well as the reapers the geth don't retain any free will or did you not see the geth side by side with the reapers in one of the slides?

Then splicing peoples dna to make them the same to establish some twisted paradise of peace by making everyone the same

Or by destroying my own allies to kill the reapers no

You think were monsters for letting everyone make their own choices even though we do die or fail well friend altering every creature or thing in the galaxy doesn't put you that much above us


And Yes I chose the moral high road and I don't regret it at all

wait wait wait, so you do not wish to sacrifice the soul but would be perfectly willing to sacrifice the species insteaad?

jsut a question

My question is did you even read my entire post or did you just hit quote and quick edit?

[ghost9191]

@Liarashield

stopped right before the "Or by destroying my own allies" thing

stand by my question, just a question

no need to answer my question with a question

by quoting that , you made it seem you would rather save "soul" over the lives themselves,

i would rather save lives and let my soul burn then condemn them to death just to satisfy my ego

that was a joke by the way, the ego part and what not

but still just a question