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Why would someone choose refuse? I will tell you why.


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#301
SeptimusMagistos

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LiarasShield wrote...

And I didn't make anything up friend the geths eyes are glowing blue they're also being controlled as shown in one of the slides


One is blue, another is green. Geth's eyes glow. This is normal for geth.

LiarasShield wrote...

I rather die not altering
anybody or any creature in the universe then to become similar to the
reapers in order to beat them


I would rather alter them in a way that's beneficial to them than allow them to be turned into liquid goo.

And I would rather literally become the Reapers themselves than do either of those.

#302
Pitznik

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LiarasShield wrote...

And I didn't make anything up friend the geths eyes are glowing blue they're also being controlled as shown in one of the slides

There is nothing in game to let you think that way. Blue is just a color, nothing more. In fact when you pick Control EDI is seen taking part in the memorial ceremony, just like a person she is. Unless Shepard ordered her to go to his own funeral, but that would be kind of weird.

#303
Pitznik

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3DandBeyond wrote...

If meta-gaming, I agree refuse and reject are a finger up to players.  But I can see it making sense in-game, because there is no way of knowing what they would do before actually enacting them.

But you don't really have to refuse to wait with choices. You can just tell the kid whatever, choice is made through certain action (and Shepard knows it), not through confirming it to the kid. You can say to him "ok, I like it" and then do something else. In fact some Shepards would do it, just to stall for a bit, instead of forcing confrontation. More I think of it, more stupid I find the fact refuse proceeds straight to the ending. Shepard would do at least something, and we should have a chance of doing it. We should be able to yell "hey kid, come here again, I want to talk to you, ffs", or go explore the chamber, or try to get out, or at least witness Shep bleeding out. There should be an actual game mechanic for it, not just reload - that way the choice to refuse would be real, and not a result of confusion. (I picked refuse that way first time I played EC - not because I WANTED to refuse, but because I wanted to see what will happen - I expected the kid staying there, or bringing new arguements, something else).

I won't even mention shooting the kid - that crap doesn't make ANY sense - no matter if you consider Catalyst to be willing to cooperate or forced to cooperate.

Modifié par Pitznik, 15 août 2012 - 02:13 .


#304
eye basher

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Sometimes you have to fight evil with another kind of evil as for destroy is not good or bad is simply mission acommplished.

#305
LiarasShield

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Pitznik wrote...

LiarasShield wrote...

And I didn't make anything up friend the geths eyes are glowing blue they're also being controlled as shown in one of the slides

There is nothing in game to let you think that way. Blue is just a color, nothing more. In fact when you pick Control EDI is seen taking part in the memorial ceremony, just like a person she is. Unless Shepard ordered her to go to his own funeral, but that would be kind of weird.


Control has you taking over all synthetics and the reapers are synthetic hybrids and the geth are synthetic friend despite having a alliance with them you still take their free will away by choosing control

#306
SeptimusMagistos

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LiarasShield wrote...

Control has you taking over all synthetics


No it doesn't. Geth eyes glow. That's why they're described as having 'flashlight heads.'

#307
Pitznik

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LiarasShield wrote...

Control has you taking over all synthetics and the reapers are synthetic hybrids and the geth are synthetic friend despite having a alliance with them you still take their free will away by choosing control

Where you got it from? Control takes over the REAPERS, who actually aren't synthetic. Nothing in game suggest that Control works on Reapers and true synthetics, it is different from destroy, that works on Reapers and synthetics and different from synthesis, which works on reapers, synthetics and organics. There is no analogy between the beams, they all work different, both in their actual result and in what type of life they affect.

#308
3DandBeyond

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ghost9191 wrote...

@3DandBeyond

i haven't touched my copy of me3 for awhile now, and haven't been on forums much so might have missed it

but as i said it seemed to me that control and destroy were what the crucible was made for, synthesis was only possible because of the catalyst

but if the catalyst was not there, or part of the game but the crucible was, wouldn't we still have the destroy and control option?

i mean the catalyst isn't the one that brought shep up to the platform so shep would've been able to arrive at the two choices either way

i am just wondering about it, like i said haven't been on the forums much so might have missed something


I will say only what I see-my opinion and I welcome yours. 

As I see it none of the kid's solutions have ever been permanent (he says this, since the conflict has always returned).  The reapers aren't a permanent solution either.  Control is not permanent, but it is a solution to what the kid sees as a problem-it stops conflict between organics and synthetics by enforcing it. But it's temporary too.

Shepard is in charge of the reapers.  But Shepard is thought and memories at that point, not emotion and with no real connection to others.  This Shreaper talks about the Many, but may have to decide which Many to protect at some point.  If Krogan and Rachni fight, which side will the reapers protect?  And they aren't exactly subtle diplomats that could work things out-they have one way to achieve peace.  And Shreaper can't contact them and tell them to just stop fighting.  If the geth and quarians start fighting again, what happens?  What if it's because the quarians initiate it?  Conflict is not avoidable ever.  That's a part of it.  Everything the solutions work to do (at least partly) is a false premise.  Conflict is solvable through a diverse understanding and nuance and diplomacy, but not through control.  Shreaper controls the reapers and the reapers will control the people.  But it's temporary-someone will want to destroy the reapers.

Destroy is also a solution, just not as good as the others.  It's also temporary.  Along with destroying the reapers it destroys (kills) what the kid sees as a current threat-synthetics.  Destroy just feels right because it does say it will destroy the reapers which is a good thing, but it is suspect as a real choice because it also is confused and contradictory and it does at least in part solve the kid's goal.  But the peace will not last.  Ok, but it doesn't last necessarily for the other choices either. 

Synthesis may have the best chance, but it is solving the kid's problem and even then peace is not assured and is not permanent.  Other conflicts can arise.  And people could learn to create organic and synthetic life or organic life that will create synthetic life (the kid's main problem).  Synthesis may last longer than the others, but it is also temporary.

The choices are all part of a poisonous tree with unknown roots.  The crucible sets them in motion, but that does not mean it actively does so.  The kid's programming might just change because the crucible's existence proves people are getting close to destroying him.  He may need new solutions because if people use the crucible (and not his solutions) they will be "dooming" themselves and not killing the bad synthetics.  His programming may change and the choices may be possible because crucible exists, but not necessarily because the crucible actively changes him.

#309
LiarasShield

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SeptimusMagistos wrote...

LiarasShield wrote...

Control has you taking over all synthetics


No it doesn't. Geth eyes glow. That's why they're described as having 'flashlight heads.'


Yes it does control has you control synthetics destroy makes you destroy synthetics and synthesis has you merging synthetics with organics

#310
SeptimusMagistos

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LiarasShield wrote...

SeptimusMagistos wrote...

LiarasShield wrote...

Control has you taking over all synthetics


No it doesn't. Geth eyes glow. That's why they're described as having 'flashlight heads.'


Yes it does control has you control synthetics destroy makes you destroy synthetics and synthesis has you merging synthetics with organics


Control is quite specific about only controlling the Reapers.

#311
memorysquid

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LiarasShield wrote...

I won't kill my own forces I will allow all organics andf synthetics to be able to to make their own choices in the universe I will not become like the reapers or catalyst in order to beat them the catalyst believed that altering the races or organics to save them was right and by doing the three choices you are altering organics or other races to save them to adhear to the catalyst logic you're becoming like the reapers in order to beat them I would rather die free and know that everyone is allowed to make their own choice then to become like the very monsters I'm fighting in order to win sorry


But it is a no go for me


Allowing a boulder to drop on someone's head because you are too squeamish to perform emergency surgery  on them [or pick your relevant metaphor] isn't supporting their autonomy.  It is cowardice.  Any of the three choices is preferable to refuse.  Any of the three choices results in less loss of life, meaning autonomy is maximized.  Trillions dead are trillions who don't get to choose anything.

Believe as you wish, but if your beliefs don't conform to reality, you are irrational and your actions won't achieve your goals.  That's as true in reality as in a work of interactive fiction.  If your goal is allowing a bunch of people to die needlessly you're on the right track.  Otherwise, refuse is simply stupid.

#312
LiarasShield

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Pitznik wrote...

LiarasShield wrote...

Control has you taking over all synthetics and the reapers are synthetic hybrids and the geth are synthetic friend despite having a alliance with them you still take their free will away by choosing control

Where you got it from? Control takes over the REAPERS, who actually aren't synthetic. Nothing in game suggest that Control works on Reapers and true synthetics, it is different from destroy, that works on Reapers and synthetics and different from synthesis, which works on reapers, synthetics and organics. There is no analogy between the beams, they all work different, both in their actual result and in what type of life they affect.


Actually the reapers are synthetics even the catalyst himself said the reapers were synthetic during the extended cut conversation with him

And the reapers are synthetic machine that have harvested organic dna or minds to make up its construct it is still a synthetic organic hybrid

#313
ATiBotka

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LiarasShield wrote...

Control has you taking over all synthetics


"You could instead use the energy of the Crucible to seize control of the Reapers."

#314
LiarasShield

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ATiBotka wrote...

LiarasShield wrote...

Control has you taking over all synthetics


"You could instead use the energy of the Crucible to seize control of the Reapers."



The thing is is that catalsyt point blank said the reapers were synthetic so if control this blue beam is controling the reapers and they're glowing blue and the geth also are glowing blue then that tells me they're being controlled as well and shepards speach their our advantages to using the strength of your enemies implying that geth are not allies anymore or that organics are only using thegeth for their strengths they no longer infacvt have free will but are being used for their strengths

#315
ATiBotka

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LiarasShield wrote...

ATiBotka wrote...

LiarasShield wrote...

Control has you taking over all synthetics


"You could instead use the energy of the Crucible to seize control of the Reapers."



The thing is is that catalsyt point blank said the reapers were synthetic so if control this blue beam is controling the reapers and they're glowing blue and the geth also are glowing blue then that tells me they're being controlled as well and shepards speach their our advantages to using the strength of your enemies implying that geth are not allies anymore or that organics are only using thegeth for their strengths they no longer infacvt have free will but are being used for their strengths



They were always glowing blue.

Modifié par ATiBotka, 15 août 2012 - 02:26 .


#316
LiarasShield

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I'm not willing to become like the reapers or the catalyst in order to beat them I'd rather allow everyone to make their own choice and if it fails then that is fine with me because we gave our best shot without the crucible and maybe the next generation will find a better way but I will not become like the monster I've been fighting in order to win like shepard has always done in mass effect 1 and 2

Also just like anderson has said

Their is always another way!!

#317
Pitznik

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LiarasShield wrote...

ATiBotka wrote...

LiarasShield wrote...

Control has you taking over all synthetics


"You could instead use the energy of the Crucible to seize control of the Reapers."



The thing is is that catalsyt point blank said the reapers were synthetic so if control this blue beam is controling the reapers and they're glowing blue and the geth also are glowing blue then that tells me they're being controlled as well and shepards speach their our advantages to using the strength of your enemies implying that geth are not allies anymore or that organics are only using thegeth for their strengths they no longer infacvt have free will but are being used for their strengths

... Geth are perfect example of "using strength of your enemy" because they ascended into real selfawareness using Reaper tech....

Even if we follow your reaosning of Reapers being a subgroup of synthetics (and I don't agree with that) if something controls the Reapers it doesn't mean it controls synthetics. It's a logical fallacy. It is like saying "I like apples", and apples are fruit, so your conclusion is "You like all fruit then". NO.

#318
LiarasShield

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no they didn't

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#319
ATiBotka

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#320
LiarasShield

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#321
eye basher

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LiarasShield wrote...

I'm not willing to become like the reapers or the catalyst in order to beat them I'd rather allow everyone to make their own choice and if it fails then that is fine with me because we gave our best shot without the crucible and maybe the next generation will find a better way but I will not become like the monster I've been fighting in order to win like shepard has always done in mass effect 1 and 2

Also just like anderson has said

Their is always another way!!


in other words your not fit to be in command of anything because you seem unable to make tough choices.

#322
LiarasShield

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Pitznik wrote...

LiarasShield wrote...

ATiBotka wrote...

LiarasShield wrote...

Control has you taking over all synthetics


"You could instead use the energy of the Crucible to seize control of the Reapers."



The thing is is that catalsyt point blank said the reapers were synthetic so if control this blue beam is controling the reapers and they're glowing blue and the geth also are glowing blue then that tells me they're being controlled as well and shepards speach their our advantages to using the strength of your enemies implying that geth are not allies anymore or that organics are only using thegeth for their strengths they no longer infacvt have free will but are being used for their strengths

... Geth are perfect example of "using strength of your enemy" because they ascended into real selfawareness using Reaper tech....

Even if we follow your reaosning of Reapers being a subgroup of synthetics (and I don't agree with that) if something controls the Reapers it doesn't mean it controls synthetics. It's a logical fallacy. It is like saying "I like apples", and apples are fruit, so your conclusion is "You like all fruit then". NO.


No matter if you agree with reapers being synthetic is not relevant if you believe the catalyst is even telling the truth even a little bit he said that the reapers are synthetic go back towards the end of the game and have the full conversation with him

#323
comrade gando

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I picked refuse because it's my way of telling bioware to take their stupid endings and shove it. then they kill everyone off. fair enough, I quit. something like that.

#324
ATiBotka

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Most of their "flashlights" are blue.
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#325
Pitznik

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LiarasShield wrote...

no they didn't

Image IPB


That is NOT a Geth prime. On your red light picture there is a Geth Prime. This is not the same platform.

Modifié par Pitznik, 15 août 2012 - 02:31 .