925 réponses à ce sujet

[ATiBotka]

LiarasShield wrote...

Well I wouldn't force a unviersal altering choice without a consensus from my forces at the very least so it still is a no go


You all who picked the three choices will never understand why people chose refuse and vice vera are veiws believes and our ways our too diferrent for us to understand each other

And you don't feel sorry for the galaxy? Your crew? Liara? Everyone?

[LiarasShield]

You believe forcing a universal altering choice against others is right I do not we are at inpass

[Ryzaki]

Honestly refuse is just the galaxy's idiocy coming full circle. No big loss.

If only the next cycle didn't grab the idiot ball as well. "hurr durr let's build something we've been told doesn't work. Despite alternatives that do work and work well when you have them.That's smart!"

Modifié par Ryzaki, 15 août 2012 - 03:18 .

[LiarasShield]

Well if heaven exist i'll meet liara there and then have a drink with garrius at the bar in the end though I will die by her side as we continue to fight the reapers for our independce I think you're more likely to go to hell for altering everybody then to stand by your believes and fight with your forces to the end

[Pitznik]

LiarasShield wrote...

Well if heaven exist i'll meet liara there and then have a drink with garrius at the bar in the end though I will die by her side as we continue to fight the reapers for our independce I think you're more likely to go to hell for altering everybody then to stand by your believes and fight with your forces to the end

Whatever helps you sleep at night.

Modifié par Pitznik, 15 août 2012 - 03:28 .

[Mavqt]

I've only seen three types of people pick refuse.

1. The 'I refuse the catalysts logic' type.
2. The 'I hate Biowares starkid' type.
3. And all of the above.

If there are people that feel differently then, I'm sorry.

Modifié par mavqt, 15 août 2012 - 03:33 .

[SeptimusMagistos]

LiarasShield wrote...

You believe forcing a universal altering choice against others is right I do not we are at inpass

Fair enough. At least you're sticking by your morals.

Your weird, weird morals.

[memorysquid]

LiarasShield wrote...

You believe forcing a universal altering choice against others is right I do not we are at inpass

First off, it's impasse.  Did you reject all the other universal altering choices Shepard made?  Would you care if someone made an altering choice without your permission if it saved your life?  If you would, keep that in mind if you are every rendered unconscious in an accident, because then the right thing to do would just be let anyone unconscious to die.

[3DandBeyond]

Ryzaki wrote...

Honestly refuse is just the galaxy's idiocy coming full circle. No big loss.

If only the next cycle didn't grab the idiot ball as well. "hurr durr let's build something we've been told doesn't work. Despite alternatives that do work and work well when you have them.That's smart!"

Ha ha, hopefully they didn't work on the crucible and made their own fightin' tools.

[AlanC9]

LiarasShield wrote...

Well if heaven exist i'll meet liara there and then have a drink with garrius at the bar in the end though I will die by her side as we continue to fight the reapers for our independce I think you're more likely to go to hell for altering everybody then to stand by your believes and fight with your forces to the end

They send you to Heaven for getting the whole galaxy killed? If the bar's that low maybe I'll get in.

Modifié par AlanC9, 15 août 2012 - 03:49 .

[robertthebard]

LiarasShield wrote...

Well if heaven exist i'll meet liara there and then have a drink with garrius at the bar in the end though I will die by her side as we continue to fight the reapers for our independce I think you're more likely to go to hell for altering everybody then to stand by your believes and fight with your forces to the end

Except that you won't be joining any fights, anywhere, there is no pick up from the Citadel, that's where you're going to die, alone.  So, in the time it takes you to die alone, I'd like you to consider Mr. Edmund Burke:

Edmund Burke wrote...
All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.

[Ryzaki]

3DandBeyond wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Honestly refuse is just the galaxy's idiocy coming full circle. No big loss.

If only the next cycle didn't grab the idiot ball as well. "hurr durr let's build something we've been told doesn't work. Despite alternatives that do work and work well when you have them.That's smart!"

Ha ha, hopefully they didn't work on the crucible and made their own fightin' tools.

I don't know why you'd build a giant battery instead of guns and ships when the latter is proven to work as long as you have the tech and the numbers.

[Mavqt]

robertthebard wrote...

LiarasShield wrote...

Well if heaven exist i'll meet liara there and then have a drink with garrius at the bar in the end though I will die by her side as we continue to fight the reapers for our independce I think you're more likely to go to hell for altering everybody then to stand by your believes and fight with your forces to the end

Except that you won't be joining any fights, anywhere, there is no pick up from the Citadel, that's where you're going to die, alone.  So, in the time it takes you to die alone, I'd like you to consider Mr. Edmund Burke:

Edmund Burke wrote...
All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.

I like this human, s/he understands.

[3DandBeyond]

memorysquid wrote...

LiarasShield wrote...

You believe forcing a universal altering choice against others is right I do not we are at inpass

First off, it's impasse.  Did you reject all the other universal altering choices Shepard made?  Would you care if someone made an altering choice without your permission if it saved your life?  If you would, keep that in mind if you are every rendered unconscious in an accident, because then the right thing to do would just be let anyone unconscious to die.

Well this is at the crux of many real world debates but it is often handled as such:  If you specifically state you don't wish certain things be done to you, then your wishes should be honored.  There are people in ME that don't want tech implants even so I daresay they have explicitly not given permission for things to be inserted into their bodies.  So, it becomes a question of numbers which is the most debasing thing to do to all people.  Value of the individual is non-existent at that point.  If the majority of people have not given permission for you to enter their bodies, but you think you're saving their lives, it's ok to enter the bodies of those who you know don't want it.  But people have always been about the individual mattering or else Shepard would never have existed in ME3.  It was because of Shepard being Shepard that the galaxy had even a slim chance of anything.  But if numbers were all that mattered, then Shepard would be rotting pieces on a cold planet.

Life at any cost is not always life worth living.  And nowhere is there any indication that Shepard would know in refusing the choices that s/he was refusing the crucible's use until we are shown that. 

[AlanC9]

Ryzaki wrote...

I don't know why you'd build a giant battery instead of guns and ships when the latter is proven to work as long as you have the tech and the numbers.

Because it's cheaper and faster? Safer too; Reapers could wreck an awful lot of planets in a real war.

[AlanC9]

3DandBeyond wrote...

Life at any cost is not always life worth living.  And nowhere is there any indication that Shepard would know in refusing the choices that s/he was refusing the crucible's use until we are shown that. 

Were players really confused by that? Were you?

[Comsky159]

SeptimusMagistos wrote...

LiarasShield wrote...

You believe forcing a universal altering choice against others is right I do not we are at inpass

Fair enough. At least you're sticking by your morals.

Your weird, weird morals.

lmao

[3DandBeyond]

AlanC9 wrote...

3DandBeyond wrote...

Life at any cost is not always life worth living.  And nowhere is there any indication that Shepard would know in refusing the choices that s/he was refusing the crucible's use until we are shown that. 

Were players really confused by that? Were you?

Where is there proof before choosing to refuse the choices that the crucible will shut off and can't be used for it's supposed purpose-to destroy only reapers?

And did you choose to refuse before knowing what it was and instantly know that it would mean the galaxy was destroyed?  Or did you choose it without foreknowledge and get surprised by what happened?

[memorysquid]

3DandBeyond wrote...

memorysquid wrote...

LiarasShield wrote...

You believe forcing a universal altering choice against others is right I do not we are at inpass

First off, it's impasse.  Did you reject all the other universal altering choices Shepard made?  Would you care if someone made an altering choice without your permission if it saved your life?  If you would, keep that in mind if you are every rendered unconscious in an accident, because then the right thing to do would just be let anyone unconscious to die.

Well this is at the crux of many real world debates but it is often handled as such:  If you specifically state you don't wish certain things be done to you, then your wishes should be honored.  There are people in ME that don't want tech implants even so I daresay they have explicitly not given permission for things to be inserted into their bodies.  So, it becomes a question of numbers which is the most debasing thing to do to all people.  Value of the individual is non-existent at that point.  If the majority of people have not given permission for you to enter their bodies, but you think you're saving their lives, it's ok to enter the bodies of those who you know don't want it.  But people have always been about the individual mattering or else Shepard would never have existed in ME3.  It was because of Shepard being Shepard that the galaxy had even a slim chance of anything.  But if numbers were all that mattered, then Shepard would be rotting pieces on a cold planet.

Life at any cost is not always life worth living.  And nowhere is there any indication that Shepard would know in refusing the choices that s/he was refusing the crucible's use until we are shown that. 

So let's try and distill the relevant moral principle here.  Would it be something like "It is preferable to allow someone to die than to potentially save their life in a manner they wouldn't like."?

Because my viewpoint is that if anyone in synthesis didn't like it, they could always suicide.

[Pitznik]

nvm

Modifié par Pitznik, 15 août 2012 - 04:37 .

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

Actually there was no way you could play the ending without metagaming because Bioware completely ****ed it up. Here is why:

1) Your Cerberus Armor / Dragon Armor / that Red Armor got changed into default charred N7 armor.

2) Your infinite ammo pistol only shot certain targets, like those husks and Marauder Shields. It did not kill the Keepers. If it killed the Keepers then it might have had some reason to believe it would have had some effect on the Starchild. Saren's pistol killed the Keepers in ME1. Why didn't yours work? How many of you shot the Keepers in the corridor only to find your pistol did nothing? Right there is your metagaming. BioWare should have had those bullets blow those Keepers apart, but they made them plot. Hence, Indoctrination Theory, and they didn't fix it in the EC.

3) You had no reason to believe the pistol would have any effect on the Starchild.

So when I was trying out the endings on my first playthrough of the game I shot the kid on my third try when I was going to see what synthesis did. It did nothing to it. So on the EC I had no reason to believe that shooting at the kid would accomplish anything. I just picked Destroy and did that.

Of course after playing enough multi-player one really begins to hate the geth. They dodge your biotic attacks worse than the Cerberus mooks. They even dodge your bullets unless you're at point blank. The goddam hunters zerg your LZ and wave 10 hacks. I would have liked the opportunity to have asked the Starbrat if their flashlights still would work. I needed a new desk lamp.

[BaladasDemnevanni]

LiarasShield wrote...

You believe forcing a universal altering choice against others is right I do not we are at inpass

Kinda poses a problem in Bioware-universes where pretty much all their games are about universe-altering consequences.

As it stands, there is no option for Shepard to deny participation in saving/murdering the Council. You don't get any choice about murdering the Batarians in Arrival, or just leaving the Rachni Queen locked in her cage. Likewise with the genophage and Cerberus base.

[lillitheris]

3DandBeyond wrote...

lillitheris wrote...

Well, that’s too bad, because that’s not the case. The writers wrote Refuse as ‘I will have nothing to do with any of this, we will lose conventionally instead’.

You can disagree with the decision to write it like that, but that’s what it is. The Destroy option is the actual rejection of the Catalyst.

Only if metagaming.

If I say ‘writers’, yes, that part is metagaming. That, however, doesn’t change the actual facts in any way.

If you Refuse, you will lose conventionally. That’s what happens.

There’s a glimmer of logic there, touching on your argument from below: the Catalyst is already offering you an option to destroy itself and the Reapers. Why would Refuse give you the same option? It’s obviously something other than destroying the Reapers. Right?

So, if you don’t metagame, and you don’t catch on the above? Then you try Refuse; the Catalyst gets upset and snuffs you out. Then your friends die. Sucks, but there you go.

The Catalyst is holding all the cards in the end.

Please tell me from what destroy is described as doing, what it actually does-who all does it kill?  Who doesn't it kill?  It's a garbled mess.

It is. The way it’s described, you’ll have to assume that the geth, EDI, and any other advanced AI will be destroyed. (This may or may not be the case, but for the cost-benefit analysis, you should go for the worst.)

Modifié par lillitheris, 15 août 2012 - 06:39 .

[lillitheris]

LiarasShield wrote...

ATiBotka wrote...

So you let everyone die.

Yes better to die free then to become like the reapers and the catalyst

Killing everyone is monstrous, sorry. You’re just as bad as they are.

[lillitheris]

memorysquid wrote...

Because my viewpoint is that if anyone in synthesis didn't like it, they could always suicide.

False dilemma. Choice isn’t Synthesis or Death.