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Why would someone choose refuse? I will tell you why.


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#576
Dharvy

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SpamBot2000 wrote...

Oh what a tangled web we weave, when trying to make the endings work. We don't like to see everyone in the galaxy reaped, so we make up reasons to accept what the leader of our omnicidal enemy is telling us to do. For me, the solution is not to play ME3. As I really love the ME series, this is deeply aggravating.


This is always funny to me. He's basically saying you can kill us or control us? And you have a problem because he's telling you what you can do?

So if a mass murderer just killed all you friends and is now about to kill your family but stops to tell you, "well you can kill me or send me to prison where I'll be controlled and forced to do things I don't want" and you're going to get mad because the "enemy is telling you what to do." 

#577
BaladasDemnevanni

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LiarasShield wrote...

But I have not denied to the entire galaxy killing geth is not giving them freedom manipulating peoples dna is not freedom controling our enemies when alot of the galaxy would want them dead is not freedom and having the new catalsyt go rogue and killing more cycles would not be freedom


Actually, that's exactly what freedom is. For those who survive.  Freedom to choose, freedom to think, freedom to love. I've given everyone exactly one more choice than you have: the ability to survive. They can reject that answer if they wish.

I'd love for you to show me what freedom anyone has when the Reapers kill them, whether they will it or not. Restriction and freedom are mutually exclusive.

Modifié par BaladasDemnevanni, 16 août 2012 - 04:11 .


#578
Timusafa

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So since this whole discussion is based on making a choice, I pose a question for thought.

Would you stop someone from making a choice? Say Anderson made it to the crucible with you, and he turns to you and says, "I'm gonna go blow this s--- up."

Would you let him choose, or do your morals dictate that you make a choice by stopping him from choosing?

#579
LiarasShield

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BaladasDemnevanni wrote...

LiarasShield wrote...

But I have not denied to the entire galaxy killing geth is not giving them freedom manipulating peoples dna is not freedom controling our enemies when alot of the galaxy would want them dead is not freedom and having the new catalsyt go rogue and killing more cycles would not be freedom


Actually, that's exactly what freedom is. For those who survive.  Freedom to choose, freedom to think, freedom to love. I've given everyone exactly one more choice than you have: the ability to survive. They can reject that answer if they wish.

I'd love for you to show me what freedom anyone has when the Reapers kill them, whether they will it or not. Restriction and freedom are mutually exclusive.



The freedom to think the freedom to be able to do what you want wether organic or synthetic  the freedom to make your owns choices the galaxy doesn't get to decide if they think controling the reapers or merging their dna or killing the geth off and causing massive damage to the relays is ok You do not the galaxy your imposing a unviersal altering choice without the galaxies permission and it is wrong yet even you can't seem to at least accept that portion of blame or fault upon yourself

#580
BaladasDemnevanni

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Timusafa wrote...

So since this whole discussion is based on making a choice, I pose a question for thought.

Would you stop someone from making a choice? Say Anderson made it to the crucible with you, and he turns to you and says, "I'm gonna go blow this s--- up."

Would you let him choose, or do your morals dictate that you make a choice by stopping him from choosing?


What's the precise context? Are we in the Catalyst's room, with Control, Reject, and Synthesis still open as options? Sounds kinda similar to the Mordin scenario, which was a great sequence.

#581
memorysquid

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LiarasShield wrote...

Again it is the believe of what ending suits you and your shepard depending on what you believe is right it doesn't make any of the endings better then any others


Your belief isn't what makes a given action right or wrong.  The unnecessary death of trillions is wrong.

#582
Feanor_II

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I choose refuse twice:
1st: With my canon Shepard, I have 4 separate savegames with each endings, just in case for the future......
2nd (And most important): Control and a violent outbreak shooting the Starbrat are the decisions that best suit my Renegade Shepard.

I have 2 more Shepards waiting to be imported...... but none of them will choose it.

#583
LiarasShield

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Again not any ending is better then another just your belief over someone elses

#584
BaladasDemnevanni

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LiarasShield wrote...

The freedom to think the freedom to be able to do what you want wether organic or synthetic  the freedom to make your owns choices the galaxy doesn't get to decide if they think controling the reapers or merging their dna or killing the geth off and causing massive damage to the relays is ok You do not the galaxy your imposing a unviersal altering choice without the galaxies permission and it is wrong yet even you can't seem to at least accept that portion of blame or fault upon yourself


None of which is possible when you are dead. Are you really this naive?

Direct question: If a person still has the option to end their own life in the post Reaper-galaxy, which is applicable in all three endings, what freedom have you given them by not using the Crucible?

Because you cannot:

1) Think when you are dead.
2) Do what you want when you are dead.
3) Make your own choices when you are dead.

Modifié par BaladasDemnevanni, 16 août 2012 - 04:20 .


#585
LiarasShield

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BaladasDemnevanni wrote...

LiarasShield wrote...

The freedom to think the freedom to be able to do what you want wether organic or synthetic  the freedom to make your owns choices the galaxy doesn't get to decide if they think controling the reapers or merging their dna or killing the geth off and causing massive damage to the relays is ok You do not the galaxy your imposing a unviersal altering choice without the galaxies permission and it is wrong yet even you can't seem to at least accept that portion of blame or fault upon yourself


None of which is possible when you are dead. Are you really this naive?

Direct question: If a person still has the option to end their own life in the post Reaper-galaxy, which is applicable in all three endings, what freedom have you given them by not using the Crucible?


To fight for their independence or flee the battle or for someone else to use the crucible because their are a few ships near the crucible and the citadel once again none of the endins are better it is just your belief against mines

#586
BaladasDemnevanni

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LiarasShield wrote...

To fight for their independence or flee the battle or for someone else to use the crucible because their are a few ships near the crucible and the citadel once again none of the endins are better it is just your belief against mines


So you gave them the freedom to die? Image IPB

#587
memorysquid

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LiarasShield wrote...

Again not any ending is better then another just your belief over someone elses


Objectively, a trillion dead people because you refuse to act is definitely worse.

#588
SpamBot2000

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Dharvy wrote...

SpamBot2000 wrote...

Oh what a tangled web we weave, when trying to make the endings work. We don't like to see everyone in the galaxy reaped, so we make up reasons to accept what the leader of our omnicidal enemy is telling us to do. For me, the solution is not to play ME3. As I really love the ME series, this is deeply aggravating.


This is always funny to me. He's basically saying you can kill us or control us? And you have a problem because he's telling you what you can do?

So if a mass murderer just killed all you friends and is now about to kill your family but stops to tell you, "well you can kill me or send me to prison where I'll be controlled and forced to do things I don't want" and you're going to get mad because the "enemy is telling you what to do." 


Again, the murderer is telling you to kill yourself for any of these things to happen. Why would you believe him, especially since some of his options are clearly based on novel magical concepts? Wouldn't you rather refuse his offer to allow your suicide and try to find some other way to stop him?

#589
Timusafa

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BaladasDemnevanni wrote...

Timusafa wrote...

So since this whole discussion is based on making a choice, I pose a question for thought.

Would you stop someone from making a choice? Say Anderson made it to the crucible with you, and he turns to you and says, "I'm gonna go blow this s--- up."

Would you let him choose, or do your morals dictate that you make a choice by stopping him from choosing?


What's the precise context? Are we in the Catalyst's room, with Control, Reject, and Synthesis still open as options? Sounds kinda similar to the Mordin scenario, which was a great sequence.


Yeah, that was a great sequence.

I was envisioning all of the options still open.  You are up with the Starchild and Anderson, have just heard the starchild give you your options, and Anderson decides to choose the destroy option.  Remember, he is your superior as well as your friend.

Do your morals push you to stop him?  For the sake of this argument being easier say he is decided on destroy and his mind can't be changed by arguing with him.

#590
Isichar

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Dharvy wrote...

If you're refusing because of ignorance and distrust I can understand that. If you're saying I couldn't trust the catalyst and I didn't know what would happened and I didn't want to make a mistake and speed up the reaping and I thought it was some kind of elaborate trap I can understand that line of thinking. I can understand refuse based on them thoughts.

But the simple fact is we are all fighting a hopeless battle in that we are all going to die and we can only choose how we are going to die, fighting, running, or lying down. The Crucible is glimmer of hope that'll we make it out of this battle alive. Scared maybe, dirty maybe, damaged maybe, but alive. Do you go down the path of hope? Well you built the thing so you're at least making it reality choice.

Now onto what the catalyst wants. Its already reaping, and its been doing it for thousands of cycles. Now it specifically tells you that if you refuse the cycle would continue. Now since its been reaping for all these years I guess reaping is also what it wants to a certain degree. So you effectively have 4 options that the catalyst wants and now you just must choose what do you want?

So I ask you, what do you want? And what are you willing to sacrifice to get it?


I want what is best for the galaxy. Not best for just organics, synthetics, the catalyst, Shepard or any specific group or person, but what is best for the growth of the galaxy as a whole, this is something worth sacrificing an entire cycle for.

Yes I know that sounds absolutely crazy, and I will do my best to explain (Although there are others who can and have worded it much better then me)

Life continues with or without the reapers interaction, and it is always changing. The reapers are like a child stuck on the final fight of a game without any chance to win, they just click reload over and over again and change nothing, their existance alone impedes on the natural evolution of the galaxy in every possible way, and has caused nothing but suffering for both organics and synthetics. Its solution was terrible, no other way to put it. And once the reapers are gone, the problem it was created to fix will still exist, unchanged.

Now it has a new solution, and asks you to choose between sacrificing yourself, or your allys for a cause I don't even agree with, and it uses my motives to do so. To the catalyst even his own destruction and the ability to continue on with our cycles lives is nothing more then a means to an end. And as I have said earlier his goals go beyond simply disagreeing with. It would rather make the universe a static place then risk the chance that synthetics and organics may end up killing each other, and even believes that a husk is a higher form of life despite having no free will.

Others say it is worth the risk to stop the threat, but the reaper threat goes beyond trying to save one specific cycle or group of people for me. If Sacrificing one cycle meant the next would have a chance, and the galaxy would be a better place for it then my Shepard would have done so (and did)

Its not a fun choice to be made but it is one I feel is important. The Catalyst is a poison to the galaxy, its goals are imposed on the natural evolution and because of it there has been more suffering then the problem it was trying to stop could ever cause. And it does not feel sympathy or regret for it, even at the end of its own cycle, it will stay true to the same goal and motivation that led to the start of the cycles.

For me I see the reaper cycle failing before mass effect 1 even started, and I wanted it to fail, not only because I personally don't agree with it, but because it must fail. The crucible may stop the reapers, you may be aloud to continue your lives and eat those yummy grilled cheese sandwiches but you did exactly what the catalyst did, you imposed your will on something that should not have been messed with in the first place. An action can't simply be judged by the immediate effects it has on the people around you, theres more to it then that.

I look at the reapers entire existance, the effect they have had on the galaxy and believe that anything that fits in line with those goals, will only end up causing the same thing.

I want the galaxy to move forward without the influence of the reapers, and you already know what I will sacrifice for that.

Modifié par Isichar, 16 août 2012 - 04:26 .


#591
LiarasShield

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BaladasDemnevanni wrote...

LiarasShield wrote...

To fight for their independence or flee the battle or for someone else to use the crucible because their are a few ships near the crucible and the citadel once again none of the endins are better it is just your belief against mines


So you gave them the freedom to die? Image IPB


I gave them the freedom on how they wanted to end the war I didn't take their choices away you killed the geth personally and caused the destruction of the relays your only hope is hopeing that qurians can recycle their tech but if that was possiable then they would've already hacked the reapers to destroy themselves the reapers can't be hacked so I don't they can be recycled or converted by the other races you killed off the geth and slowly killing off your own forces you're again not better then me

I fight for wanting everyone to be able to make their choices and even if we die it is a quick death but your making your forces slowly die in destroy you think your so much more heroic but you aren't it only makes me laugh you think I'm naive the shoe is on the other foot love

Modifié par LiarasShield, 16 août 2012 - 04:29 .


#592
BaladasDemnevanni

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SpamBot2000 wrote...

Again, the murderer is telling you to kill yourself for any of these things to happen. Why would you believe him, especially since some of his options are clearly based on novel magical concepts? Wouldn't you rather refuse his offer to allow your suicide and try to find some other way to stop him?


See, this I can understand a bit more, but there's still one critical flaw: we don't have any options left. You can reject the Catalyst because you think he's misleading you. Hell, who would think that shooting a console would somehow destroy the Reapers? Very non-intuitive.

But we already know that this war can't be won conventionally. Which places us in a bit of an awkward boat since we know we can't kill them all, but there's no other functionality to the Crucible, far as we are aware. As Shepard, we can look around for another button to press, but we do reach that "damned if you do, damned if you don't" point.

#593
BaladasDemnevanni

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Timusafa wrote...

BaladasDemnevanni wrote...

Timusafa wrote...

So since this whole discussion is based on making a choice, I pose a question for thought.

Would you stop someone from making a choice? Say Anderson made it to the crucible with you, and he turns to you and says, "I'm gonna go blow this s--- up."

Would you let him choose, or do your morals dictate that you make a choice by stopping him from choosing?


What's the precise context? Are we in the Catalyst's room, with Control, Reject, and Synthesis still open as options? Sounds kinda similar to the Mordin scenario, which was a great sequence.


Yeah, that was a great sequence.

I was envisioning all of the options still open.  You are up with the Starchild and Anderson, have just heard the starchild give you your options, and Anderson decides to choose the destroy option.  Remember, he is your superior as well as your friend.

Do your morals push you to stop him?  For the sake of this argument being easier say he is decided on destroy and his mind can't be changed by arguing with him.


Thought experiments! Gotta love 'em. I think it comes down to which option my Shepard is gunning for. In my first playthrough, I didn't hesitate to shoot Mordin (Yes, I'm terrible). If he's really intent on destroy without even listening to other viewpoints, I might just go ahead and bite the bullet.

#594
Shalaska

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LiarasShield wrote...
To fight for their independence or flee the battle or for someone else to use the crucible because their are a few ships near the crucible and the citadel once again none of the endins are better it is just your belief against mines


I don't think you played the same game I did, because in my game there was a mass slaughter of the people trying to get to the crucible in order to fire it, and with all of their deaths you barely manage to make it up there. If you refuse it is IMPOSSIBLE for someone else to make it all the way there and make a choice before the reapers destroy it. This was a one time chance and you are throwing it away, that is not a choice but a giant FU to all of the troops dying to give you that chance.

The majority of the galaxies fleet is engaging in a suicide mission while ground troops from all the races are being slaughtered in droves, just to give you a chance to fire the weapons, don't their lives (and more importantly their deaths) mean anything to you or is your paragon Shepard so heartless as to casually disregard thousands to millions of deaths to give you that chance.

#595
LiarasShield

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BaladasDemnevanni wrote...

Timusafa wrote...

BaladasDemnevanni wrote...

Timusafa wrote...

So since this whole discussion is based on making a choice, I pose a question for thought.

Would you stop someone from making a choice? Say Anderson made it to the crucible with you, and he turns to you and says, "I'm gonna go blow this s--- up."

Would you let him choose, or do your morals dictate that you make a choice by stopping him from choosing?


What's the precise context? Are we in the Catalyst's room, with Control, Reject, and Synthesis still open as options? Sounds kinda similar to the Mordin scenario, which was a great sequence.


Yeah, that was a great sequence.

I was envisioning all of the options still open.  You are up with the Starchild and Anderson, have just heard the starchild give you your options, and Anderson decides to choose the destroy option.  Remember, he is your superior as well as your friend.

Do your morals push you to stop him?  For the sake of this argument being easier say he is decided on destroy and his mind can't be changed by arguing with him.


Thought experiments! Gotta love 'em. I think it comes down to which option my Shepard is gunning for. In my first playthrough, I didn't hesitate to shoot Mordin (Yes, I'm terrible). If he's really intent on destroy without even listening to other viewpoints, I might just go ahead and bite the bullet.



It is ultimatle your belief against someone elses doesn't make any of the endings better

#596
LiarasShield

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Shalaska wrote...

LiarasShield wrote...
To fight for their independence or flee the battle or for someone else to use the crucible because their are a few ships near the crucible and the citadel once again none of the endins are better it is just your belief against mines


I don't think you played the same game I did, because in my game there was a mass slaughter of the people trying to get to the crucible in order to fire it, and with all of their deaths you barely manage to make it up there. If you refuse it is IMPOSSIBLE for someone else to make it all the way there and make a choice before the reapers destroy it. This was a one time chance and you are throwing it away, that is not a choice but a giant FU to all of the troops dying to give you that chance.

The majority of the galaxies fleet is engaging in a suicide mission while ground troops from all the races are being slaughtered in droves, just to give you a chance to fire the weapons, don't their lives (and more importantly their deaths) mean anything to you or is your paragon Shepard so heartless as to casually disregard thousands to millions of deaths to give you that chance.


Ok now your silly did you not see the crucible dock with the citadel in space someone from one of the ships could've jumped on the crucible or flown near the citadel and no it isn't impossiable from the ground yes I would say it is because you're TRYING TO RUN TO THE CRUCIBLE ON FOOT AGAINST REAPER DESTROYERS

in space very possiable espically depending on their speed and if they go near ftl near crucible

#597
Brovikk Rasputin

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That's the worst logic I've ever heard.

#598
LiarasShield

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For the millionth time it is your own belief that makes the ending you chose good for you it doesn't make any of the endings worse or better any of the others

#599
BaladasDemnevanni

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LiarasShield wrote...

I gave them the freedom on how they wanted to end the war 


The war ends the same way for everyone: we all die. Not everyone wants to die. Why did you take away all those respective people's freedoms? Again, anyone who hates synthesis or the other options has a million different ways they can choose to end their life. Anyone who loves synthesis has a million different ways to live their lives.
 

I didn't take their choices away you killed the geth personally and caused the destruction of the relays your only hope is hopeing that qurians can recycle their tech but if that was possiable then they would've already hacked the reapers to destroy themselves the reapers can't be hacked so I don't they can be recycled or converted by the other races you killed off the geth and slowly killing off your own forces you're again not better then me


Did you completely miss the creation of EDI, the Thanix Cannon, better shields, and the fact that we now have a million dead Reaper corpses at our disposal, the Catalyst's claiming that we won't have trouble rebuilding, Hackett's confidence in our ability to rebuild, all with the combined resources of the entire galaxy? It took two years to implement the Thanix canon. The Protheans themselves eventually managed to reverse engineer mass relay technology.

You're really pushing for this doom and gloom version of the galaxy. With your interpretation, why ever fight the Reapers in the first place? 

Battle of the Citadel: Rebuilding all this is going to be painful, we may as well just let the Reapers through to burn it all.

I fight for wanting everyone to be able to make their choices and even if we die it is a quick death but your making your forces slowly die in destroy you think your so much more heroic but you aren't it only makes me laugh you think I'm naive the shoe is on the other foot love


A bullet to your own head isn't exactly dying slowly. Certainly not as slow as watching everything you loved destroyed in the way that Javik was forced to, which is what you're advocating for. You also continue to overestimate the state of the destroyed galaxy in Destroy, something which has cost you.

Modifié par BaladasDemnevanni, 16 août 2012 - 04:40 .


#600
3DandBeyond

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Dharvy wrote...

I have a question if you're were talking to the Geth and EDI upon the platform and told them that you can Destroy the Reapers but the Crucible would also destroy them and then tell them you can refuse but we have no real hope in ending this war and everyone, all the lives of the galaxy would be loss, can you not see them sacraficing themselves? Especially being AI's that can calculate and know statistically it'll be the same result?

And even if they didn't I'll probably let it be known that they did just that, sacrifice themselves for the whole of the galaxy. And they'll go down as the galaxy's greatest heroes. And it'll inspire everyone to respect and admire synthetics and hopefully any future synthetics would be greatly appreciated and not feel so threatened by organics that and in turn prevent the catalyst's fears or at least make it a lot less likely.


Yes, I can see them willingly sacrifice themselves, but the thing is Shepard never is given the chance to ask.

However, being logically based I do think they would have a problem with the kid's assertion that they will always want to destroy organics (since they don't) and that to achieve peace you create war, to avoid conflict you initiate it, and to stop the reapers you are given 3 choices with only one possibly resulting in finally stopping them, since the other 2 leave them alive.  I can see them weighing the logic of believing that a being that has been involved in so much destruction and deceit is now being authentic about such choices and I see them being conflicted as to the validity of the choices-the choices fail Occam's Razor "test" and require too many leaps of faith, and faith in a killer.  I can see the geth positing that the quest for the crucible itself was a fool's errand, and nothing the kid has said makes it sound like it was a great idea.

Even though I think the geth are willing to sacrifice themselves, I can see that they might look at the crucible/citadel/catalyst as having a 66% chance of not being a good idea, since 2 of the 3 choices specifically do not destroy the reapers.  That leaves destroy as rather questionable.

Hope is often rooted in faith and faith in this case is rooted in an AI that kills because its logic is flawed or that kills because it likes to kill or some other reason.  As I've said, for all they all know the crucible didn't create the choices but it just may represent the knowledge that people are close to overcoming and destroying the kid, so it causes the kid to change his programming.

And consider what sacrifice means.  I have no right to throw you off a building to save the lives of others.  I used this example before.  Say that one month ago you say you'd die for me.  You might mean one thing by that.  If then you and I are walking down the street and someone is about to shoot a gun at me, I pull you in front of me to save my own life, it's not the same thing as you jumping in front of me to save my life. 

The geth are not given a choice-one they might accept.  But, they could logically conclude the choice is a fallacy in and of itself.  And no one knows what shooting the kid will do, or what refusing his choices will do.  They don't know if it's true that the crucible has anything to do with the choices and that refusing to make a choice will turn off the crucible. 

What I'm saying is this is not a choice about killing the geth or letting the galaxy die.  It's a choice between killing the geth and deciding the choices are flawed or a trap.  You don't know until you refuse that the crucible will shut down and the galaxy will die.  My opinion simply.