925 réponses à ce sujet

[robertthebard]

Khajiit Jzargo wrote...

The catalyst has every reason to lie, I'm winning. And if you want to know what I mean, just ask.

I did ask, it was the very first sentence in my post.  You quoted me, but did not address the premise, you just said you're winning.

Looking at the conditions around Earth, you are not winning.  Looking at the galaxy map going to Earth, you are not winning.  Looking at what happens to Hammer, you are not winning.  While it may look good on your Galaxy at War screen, when you actually look at the reality of the situation, you are not winning, the Reapers are, and so, have no reason to lie, unless, as I postulated in my previous post, it is a lie of omission, by not telling you about Destroy.

[mrbthq]

Sheperd doesn't know the future and wouldn't know if the star kid was telling the truth about the choices or if they were just tricks of some sort, making a choice means you choose to trust him so it might make sense for shepard to not play ball from a role playing perspective.

[Dharvy]

mrbthq wrote...

Sheperd doesn't know the future and wouldn't know if the star kid was telling the truth about the choices or if they were just tricks of some sort, making a choice means you choose to trust him so it might make sense for shepard to not play ball from a role playing perspective.

But if he don't play ball what is his alternative? The Crucible was said to work with the Catalyst. In his time he have left do he have the ability to use the Crucible without the use of the Catalyst? What reliable information does he have to trust that the Crucible can work without the Catalyst? The only reliable information he has is what the Catalyst says the Crucible does because it's at least information. Anything else is pure speculation because he doesn't have no counter information to put up against the Catalyst's information upon the working of the Crucible.

If he refuse because he didn't trust the Catalyst then the Catalyst and the Reapers won. You see because they just tricked him by using his distrust and fear to make him refuse to use the very weapon he spent all this time and effort in getting deployed, the very weapon that could stop the Reapers dead in there tracks. So fearing to be tricked, end up letting yourself be tricked. So essentially Shepard defeated himself. Ironic but I kind of like that trick twist ending.

[Khajiit Jzargo]

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

Khajiit Jzargo wrote...

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

No it does not. I think you're being a bit too paranoid. There's a healthy degree of paranoia which I have, and there's unhealthy paranoia which is tinfoil hat stuff. See you have 0% chance of winning conventionally. This is evidenced over 20,000 or more cycles. No one has beaten the reapers, and this cycle is more primative than some; could have been more organized but it let petty grievances interfere. So 0% chance. This is, in effect, an objective truth like gravity.

Your absolute belief that the AI construct is lying is a belief and nothing more. A person may have an absolute belief in the existance of the flying spaghetti monster (I use that as an example so as not to get into forbidden topics), but that doesn't mean it exists.

What you choose to do is believe the AI is lying and continue to do something that has been tried and has failed 100% of the time probably over 20,000 consecutive times ever since the first reaper was created.

Blowing up or shooting the plasma conduit (RED) is something that has never been tried. Sure, you don't know if it's going to work. You are taking its word that it will work. You may believe that it is lying about that, but what if it's not? This is also a belief, and is equally as valid, and may actually have more merit because it is something that hasn't been tried before. Ever played Liar's Dice? Sometimes you tell the truth.

Isn't it better to try something that hasn't been tried before that might work, than to do the same thing for the 20,000+ time that has failed and will fail again?

And actually the hellfire and brimstone stuff did happen when I shot the red plasma conduit.

You say that previous cycles have failed before when defeating the Reapers conventionally, but now I ask you this.

Previous cycles failed before to finish the Crucible and we didn't. So we were able to do something even though previous cycles failed at it, so the point of "is worse to try something that has failed before" is moot, because your whole plan of finishing the crucible was done knowing previous cycles failed.

You're on the ropes and reaching.

Crucible: Yes we completed it because ours wasn't sabotaged like the previous cycles were. That's why we were successful in completing it.

Conventional Victory: 1) Entire battle plan is based around a) cutting an opening for hammer to reach earth and they took a lot of casualties to do that; protecting the crucible. 2) The manufacturing capacity of the galaxy is drastically diminished. There is not sufficient capacity to build replacements at a rate needed. 3) The entire galactic fleet was committed to this one battle. This is all or nothing. Hackett is counting on the Crucible to work. If the Crucible doesn't work we lose. If you don't use the Crucible it is the same as it not working, hence we lose. Those are the odds. No Crucible = 0% chance of victory --> i.e. "get the hell out of here and drop as many of those time capsules on garden worlds as we can before we're destroyed."

So you can 1) go with the 0% chance; or 2) gamble that the Crucible will work as advertised. In real life I'd take the gamble.

PS: the Galaxy At War map is a lie. You are not winning even though it says you are. Stop playing Multi-player or your iOS app for a few weeks, or don't use a gibbed save game and you'll see what happens.

No I'm not reaching for ropes, I'm basically talking your logic.  You say that don't take the chance of doing something that has failed before, but building the crucible, the essence of the main plot in this game, is doing something that has failed before. Hence the reason why your argument of "why do something that has failed before" is absurd.

Also, It's not a 0 percent chance, and even if it is, at least you can do something, lower down their numbers, gather useful info for the next cycle, try to survive via stasis pods etc. 
And your failing to see my point, I'm saying I see the crucible as much of a certain defeat as conventional victory, so I choose to work with my allies instead.

[Khajiit Jzargo]

robertthebard wrote...

Khajiit Jzargo wrote...

The catalyst has every reason to lie, I'm winning. And if you want to know what I mean, just ask.

I did ask, it was the very first sentence in my post.  You quoted me, but did not address the premise, you just said you're winning.

Looking at the conditions around Earth, you are not winning.  Looking at the galaxy map going to Earth, you are not winning.  Looking at what happens to Hammer, you are not winning.  While it may look good on your Galaxy at War screen, when you actually look at the reality of the situation, you are not winning, the Reapers are, and so, have no reason to lie, unless, as I postulated in my previous post, it is a lie of omission, by not telling you about Destroy.

They aren't winning. You're on the crucible standing in the control room of a machine with the power to wipe out the entire reaper fleet. Dismantle the plan of the Catalyst entirely, perhaps even destroy the very galaxy if used improperly.

The Starchild has every single reason to get you to choose the option that retains his solution, and every single reason to lie. But tell me then, what possible reason given these circumstances would the catalyst, even supposing he was winning, have to tell the truth? 

You see, as unlikely most scenarios where we should default to truth unless proven otherwise, the burden of proof with regards to the credibility of a being who has lied not just to the Illusive Man and Saren, who let us remember both began their quest by attempting to stop the Reapers as well but also the entire galaxy thousands of times over, a being that is telling you something that appears to contravene logic, a being that not moments ago you said no one could trust. Tells you that by keeping the Reapers alive but killing yourself, you will bring about the survival of your cycle.

That is absurd.

Taken.

[SpamBot2000]

Dharvy wrote...

But if he don't play ball what is his alternative? 

Anything the developers chose to allow. Which turns out is nothing. 

When feeling the need to argue against dumb Shepard allowing the destruction of the galaxy, that's where to address your complaints.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

Khajiit Jzargo wrote...

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

Khajiit Jzargo wrote...

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

No it does not. I think you're being a bit too paranoid. There's a healthy degree of paranoia which I have, and there's unhealthy paranoia which is tinfoil hat stuff. See you have 0% chance of winning conventionally. This is evidenced over 20,000 or more cycles. No one has beaten the reapers, and this cycle is more primative than some; could have been more organized but it let petty grievances interfere. So 0% chance. This is, in effect, an objective truth like gravity.

Your absolute belief that the AI construct is lying is a belief and nothing more. A person may have an absolute belief in the existance of the flying spaghetti monster (I use that as an example so as not to get into forbidden topics), but that doesn't mean it exists.

What you choose to do is believe the AI is lying and continue to do something that has been tried and has failed 100% of the time probably over 20,000 consecutive times ever since the first reaper was created.

Blowing up or shooting the plasma conduit (RED) is something that has never been tried. Sure, you don't know if it's going to work. You are taking its word that it will work. You may believe that it is lying about that, but what if it's not? This is also a belief, and is equally as valid, and may actually have more merit because it is something that hasn't been tried before. Ever played Liar's Dice? Sometimes you tell the truth.

Isn't it better to try something that hasn't been tried before that might work, than to do the same thing for the 20,000+ time that has failed and will fail again?

And actually the hellfire and brimstone stuff did happen when I shot the red plasma conduit.

You say that previous cycles have failed before when defeating the Reapers conventionally, but now I ask you this.

Previous cycles failed before to finish the Crucible and we didn't. So we were able to do something even though previous cycles failed at it, so the point of "is worse to try something that has failed before" is moot, because your whole plan of finishing the crucible was done knowing previous cycles failed.

You're on the ropes and reaching.

Crucible: Yes we completed it because ours wasn't sabotaged like the previous cycles were. That's why we were successful in completing it.

Conventional Victory: 1) Entire battle plan is based around a) cutting an opening for hammer to reach earth and they took a lot of casualties to do that; protecting the crucible. 2) The manufacturing capacity of the galaxy is drastically diminished. There is not sufficient capacity to build replacements at a rate needed. 3) The entire galactic fleet was committed to this one battle. This is all or nothing. Hackett is counting on the Crucible to work. If the Crucible doesn't work we lose. If you don't use the Crucible it is the same as it not working, hence we lose. Those are the odds. No Crucible = 0% chance of victory --> i.e. "get the hell out of here and drop as many of those time capsules on garden worlds as we can before we're destroyed."

So you can 1) go with the 0% chance; or 2) gamble that the Crucible will work as advertised. In real life I'd take the gamble.

PS: the Galaxy At War map is a lie. You are not winning even though it says you are. Stop playing Multi-player or your iOS app for a few weeks, or don't use a gibbed save game and you'll see what happens.

No I'm not reaching for ropes, I'm basically talking your logic.  You say that don't take the chance of doing something that has failed before, but building the crucible, the essence of the main plot in this game, is doing something that has failed before. Hence the reason why your argument of "why do something that has failed before" is absurd.

Also, It's not a 0 percent chance, and even if it is, at least you can do something, lower down their numbers, gather useful info for the next cycle, try to survive via stasis pods etc. 
And your failing to see my point, I'm saying I see the crucible as much of a certain defeat as conventional victory, so I choose to work with my allies instead.

Look you just changed the rules. You can't do that. We already had the crucible built. Done. Finished. Completed. I'm talking from the end of the game from Cronos onward. You're talking from a point of Mars before we even built the Crucible. Apples =/= Oranges.

But you're still talking a 0% chance. I'm going to do you even better. I'm going to change the rules.

The problem lies NOT in ME3. The problem lies at the end of ME1 with the council retcon from "let's prepare to fight the reapers" to becoming complete and utter dumbasses worthy of being shot just for the crime of being so stupid for breathing air and consuming food that others of higher intelligence might have been able to breathe and consume. I just hope that group mercifully removed themselves from the gene pool before breeding.

What you're doing is going back to the beginning and rewriting the game. Okay you want to do that? Fine. I want to go back and retcon the Council not becoming complete ****ing idiots after ME1.

I want to take large samples of Sovereign not to idiots at the Alliance military or the Turian Hierarchy and Asari or Salarians but to the renegade Quarian scientists like Admiral Xen and Admiral Rael who won't say "Ah yes 'reapers.' We've dismissed that myth." "There's nothing to indicate that Sovereign wasn't a geth ship." And they had Shepard fighting Geth. Geth! When we all knew who the real enemy was! The Reapers. What a waste!

Do you see where the problem really is? It's not in the Crucible. It's in just after ME1.

Those two will actually do some testing of the materials and come up with some technological advancements we can use, and maybe a something far more advanced than copying a small scale thanix cannon. Something that could actually penetrate a reaper hull and shield. They may also come up with better ship armor. Maybe if we could get them hooked up with another renegade Salarian scientist like Mordin Solus instead of wasting his time on a cure for the genophage he could work with them on some counter-indoctrination technology and we could really stand a chance. And when we had something offer to turn over our findings to the council. They'd be hard pressed to dismiss the Quarian admiralty and Salarian STG Scientists who can tell Geth from something far more advanced.

Oh they'd be hollering at Shepard for treason for bringing secrets to a potential enemy of the council, but **** them. Shepard doesn't go all dumb **** either. And Anderson doesn't have to kiss ass on it either. "Fine, you don't want it? We do. We'll build the ships. We'll be ready, and the Quarians will be ready." Of course the Council will protest vehemently about provoking a war, to which the response is "then take the specs, get off your asses and start building. The reapers won't be playing politics. Sovereign clearly wasn't geth." "How many can we build?" "As many as you can and as fast as you can. They will be here."

Okay, so now Shepard doesn't get killed fighting Geth, doesn't go with Cerberus, and the Alliance investigates the Collector attacks with the SR-2 Normandy which can take the Collector Cruiser easily in a head to head battle, and now we do ME2 except with the Alliance in charge.

ME3 gets here. The Reapers get a welcoming committee like they've never had. They may take the Batarians by surprise, but when they hit the Arcturus fleet they start getting pounded.

But you know put Xen, Rael and Solus on the Crucible anyway. Build it. Figure out what it does. Modify it so that it does ONE thing and ONE thing only, and set it up so that you can remote fire it via quantum entanglement. This instead of blindly following plans. Put some real geniuses to work on it. We want it to make a feedback loop to fry a big mass relay, and detonate another big mass relay.

We know two things about the reapers. They activate in dark space when the Citadel relay opens so they can come through. And they home in on the Citadel to go back whtn the relay activates again. So now with counter-indoctrination measures in place, you get a team inside the Citadel via the Conduit on Ilos, which was conveniently forgotten about because everyone went full retard, so now you've got control of the Citadel. Then your team keeps the arms open. You dock the Crucible. Then you Skyjack Harbinger, and once you have control you hack him and force Harbinger to open the Citadel Relay to dark space and summon all the reapers to leave -- we're done. When the last reaper has left, you destroy Harby's Mass Effect Core, then bail out like you did on the derelict reaper -- Harby gets sucked through the relay. Then EDI launches a few QE probes through the relay, and fires the Crucible and it blows the Darkspace Relay (telemetry received), and fries the Citadel Relay and Citadel AI functions. OUR relays and stuff are unaffected.

It'll be years before power gets restored fully to the Citadel.

If this is what you're talking about, fine. But this is a massive rewrite of the story. This is completely changing the rules of the discussion.

[Goneaviking]

Khajiit Jzargo wrote...
The Starchild has every single reason to get you to choose the option that retains his solution, and every single reason to lie. But tell me then, what possible reason given these circumstances would the catalyst, even supposing he was winning, have to tell the truth? 

Reason One: Because he doesn't want to give you any options, but the Crucible is forcing him to.
Reason Two: Because after many millions of years the Organics have begun to show signs that eventually they will be able to finally stop the Reapers altogether, and that makes their continued cycle an ultimately futile endeavour. They might succeed for a few millions years more, but eventually the organics will win out. He can either keep on until the bitter end, or he can try and find a new solution now.
The protheans thwarted the Reapers plan by deprogramming the keepers, the current cycle stopped Sovereign and the collectors, who knows what mischief the next batch could achieve with the information left behind by the protheans and no doubt by Shepard's merry bunch?
Reason Three: Because he likes he cut of Shepard's gib.

You see, as unlikely most scenarios where we should default to truth unless proven otherwise, the burden of proof with regards to the credibility of a being who has lied not just to the Illusive Man and Saren, who let us remember both began their quest by attempting to stop the Reapers as well but also the entire galaxy thousands of times over, a being that is telling you something that appears to contravene logic, a being that not moments ago you said no one could trust. Tells you that by keeping the Reapers alive but killing yourself, you will bring about the survival of your cycle.

Has he actually communicated with either? Saren was indoctrinated by Sovereign and demonstrated no knowledge of the Catalyst, the Illusive Man never indicates any communication with him either. 
Of course I haven't read the books so I don't know for sure, but given how big a spoiler that would be I'm guessing it didn't happen there either. There is no evidence of past misdirection from the Catalyst; however little trust his actions may have engendered he doesn't have a known history of lying.

That is absurd.

Taken.

I can take it or leave it.

[Solaxe]

mrbthq wrote...

Sheperd doesn't know the future and wouldn't know if the star kid was telling the truth about the choices or if they were just tricks of some sort, making a choice means you choose to trust him so it might make sense for shepard to not play ball from a role playing perspective.

Tricks? Are you serious?

Catalyst has already won, there's no point in trying to trick Shepard. He didn't even had to show all 3 options.

[Khajiit Jzargo]

Goneaviking wrote...

Khajiit Jzargo wrote...
The Starchild has every single reason to get you to choose the option that retains his solution, and every single reason to lie. But tell me then, what possible reason given these circumstances would the catalyst, even supposing he was winning, have to tell the truth? 

Reason One: Because he doesn't want to give you any options, but the Crucible is forcing him to.
Reason Two: Because after many millions of years the Organics have begun to show signs that eventually they will be able to finally stop the Reapers altogether, and that makes their continued cycle an ultimately futile endeavour. They might succeed for a few millions years more, but eventually the organics will win out. He can either keep on until the bitter end, or he can try and find a new solution now.
The protheans thwarted the Reapers plan by deprogramming the keepers, the current cycle stopped Sovereign and the collectors, who knows what mischief the next batch could achieve with the information left behind by the protheans and no doubt by Shepard's merry bunch?
Reason Three: Because he likes he cut of Shepard's gib.

You see, as unlikely most scenarios where we should default to truth unless proven otherwise, the burden of proof with regards to the credibility of a being who has lied not just to the Illusive Man and Saren, who let us remember both began their quest by attempting to stop the Reapers as well but also the entire galaxy thousands of times over, a being that is telling you something that appears to contravene logic, a being that not moments ago you said no one could trust. Tells you that by keeping the Reapers alive but killing yourself, you will bring about the survival of your cycle.

Has he actually communicated with either? Saren was indoctrinated by Sovereign and demonstrated no knowledge of the Catalyst, the Illusive Man never indicates any communication with him either. 
Of course I haven't read the books so I don't know for sure, but given how big a spoiler that would be I'm guessing it didn't happen there either. There is no evidence of past misdirection from the Catalyst; however little trust his actions may have engendered he doesn't have a known history of lying.

That is absurd.

Taken.

I can take it or leave it.

1-How can they keep failing? He could destroy the crucible and all it's plans if he wanted too.
2-The catalyst hasn't communicated with TIM and Saren, but they have two similarities. They both believed in the Reapers or got to close and failed.

[Khajiit Jzargo]

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

Look you just changed the rules. You can't do that. We already had the crucible built. Done. Finished. Completed. I'm talking from the end of the game from Cronos onward. You're talking from a point of Mars before we even built the Crucible. Apples =/= Oranges.

But you're still talking a 0% chance. I'm going to do you even better. I'm going to change the rules.

The problem lies NOT in ME3. The problem lies at the end of ME1 with the council retcon from "let's prepare to fight the reapers" to becoming complete and utter dumbasses worthy of being shot just for the crime of being so stupid for breathing air and consuming food that others of higher intelligence might have been able to breathe and consume. I just hope that group mercifully removed themselves from the gene pool before breeding.

What you're doing is going back to the beginning and rewriting the game. Okay you want to do that? Fine. I want to go back and retcon the Council not becoming complete ****ing idiots after ME1.

I want to take large samples of Sovereign not to idiots at the Alliance military or the Turian Hierarchy and Asari or Salarians but to the renegade Quarian scientists like Admiral Xen and Admiral Rael who won't say "Ah yes 'reapers.' We've dismissed that myth." "There's nothing to indicate that Sovereign wasn't a geth ship." And they had Shepard fighting Geth. Geth! When we all knew who the real enemy was! The Reapers. What a waste!

Do you see where the problem really is? It's not in the Crucible. It's in just after ME1.

Those two will actually do some testing of the materials and come up with some technological advancements we can use, and maybe a something far more advanced than copying a small scale thanix cannon. Something that could actually penetrate a reaper hull and shield. They may also come up with better ship armor. Maybe if we could get them hooked up with another renegade Salarian scientist like Mordin Solus instead of wasting his time on a cure for the genophage he could work with them on some counter-indoctrination technology and we could really stand a chance. And when we had something offer to turn over our findings to the council. They'd be hard pressed to dismiss the Quarian admiralty and Salarian STG Scientists who can tell Geth from something far more advanced.

Oh they'd be hollering at Shepard for treason for bringing secrets to a potential enemy of the council, but **** them. Shepard doesn't go all dumb **** either. And Anderson doesn't have to kiss ass on it either. "Fine, you don't want it? We do. We'll build the ships. We'll be ready, and the Quarians will be ready." Of course the Council will protest vehemently about provoking a war, to which the response is "then take the specs, get off your asses and start building. The reapers won't be playing politics. Sovereign clearly wasn't geth." "How many can we build?" "As many as you can and as fast as you can. They will be here."

Okay, so now Shepard doesn't get killed fighting Geth, doesn't go with Cerberus, and the Alliance investigates the Collector attacks with the SR-2 Normandy which can take the Collector Cruiser easily in a head to head battle, and now we do ME2 except with the Alliance in charge.

ME3 gets here. The Reapers get a welcoming committee like they've never had. They may take the Batarians by surprise, but when they hit the Arcturus fleet they start getting pounded.

But you know put Xen, Rael and Solus on the Crucible anyway. Build it. Figure out what it does. Modify it so that it does ONE thing and ONE thing only, and set it up so that you can remote fire it via quantum entanglement. This instead of blindly following plans. Put some real geniuses to work on it. We want it to make a feedback loop to fry a big mass relay, and detonate another big mass relay.

We know two things about the reapers. They activate in dark space when the Citadel relay opens so they can come through. And they home in on the Citadel to go back whtn the relay activates again. So now with counter-indoctrination measures in place, you get a team inside the Citadel via the Conduit on Ilos, which was conveniently forgotten about because everyone went full retard, so now you've got control of the Citadel. Then your team keeps the arms open. You dock the Crucible. Then you Skyjack Harbinger, and once you have control you hack him and force Harbinger to open the Citadel Relay to dark space and summon all the reapers to leave -- we're done. When the last reaper has left, you destroy Harby's Mass Effect Core, then bail out like you did on the derelict reaper -- Harby gets sucked through the relay. Then EDI launches a few QE probes through the relay, and fires the Crucible and it blows the Darkspace Relay (telemetry received), and fries the Citadel Relay and Citadel AI functions. OUR relays and stuff are unaffected.

It'll be years before power gets restored fully to the Citadel.

If this is what you're talking about, fine. But this is a massive rewrite of the story. This is completely changing the rules of the discussion.

Not it's not different. Your critizing me for choosing something that has failed before, when the whole plan was doing something that has failed before. That's hypocrosy.

[robertthebard]

Khajiit Jzargo wrote...

robertthebard wrote...

Khajiit Jzargo wrote...

The catalyst has every reason to lie, I'm winning. And if you want to know what I mean, just ask.

I did ask, it was the very first sentence in my post.  You quoted me, but did not address the premise, you just said you're winning.

Looking at the conditions around Earth, you are not winning.  Looking at the galaxy map going to Earth, you are not winning.  Looking at what happens to Hammer, you are not winning.  While it may look good on your Galaxy at War screen, when you actually look at the reality of the situation, you are not winning, the Reapers are, and so, have no reason to lie, unless, as I postulated in my previous post, it is a lie of omission, by not telling you about Destroy.

They aren't winning. You're on the crucible standing in the control room of a machine with the power to wipe out the entire reaper fleet. Dismantle the plan of the Catalyst entirely, perhaps even destroy the very galaxy if used improperly.

The Starchild has every single reason to get you to choose the option that retains his solution, and every single reason to lie. But tell me then, what possible reason given these circumstances would the catalyst, even supposing he was winning, have to tell the truth? 

You see, as unlikely most scenarios where we should default to truth unless proven otherwise, the burden of proof with regards to the credibility of a being who has lied not just to the Illusive Man and Saren, who let us remember both began their quest by attempting to stop the Reapers as well but also the entire galaxy thousands of times over, a being that is telling you something that appears to contravene logic, a being that not moments ago you said no one could trust. Tells you that by keeping the Reapers alive but killing yourself, you will bring about the survival of your cycle.

That is absurd.

Taken.

So you are actually railing against Synthesis and Control?  Because these are the only ones that are actually choosing to use the Crucible that leave the Reapers alive.  So because you don't want to kill yourself, and leave the Reapers alive, you choose to kill everyone, including yourself, and leave the Reapers alive.  Note that I'm not talking from a metagame perspective here, I am basing this statement entirely on the Galaxy map, what happened to Hammer, and what's happening to Sword while we are chatting with SC.  Adding in the actual definition of Refuse.

Let's look at why the Protheans didn't use the Crucible.  They didn't have control of the Citadel.  The Conduit wasn't finished until after the Reapers had gone back to Dark Space, according to Vigil, so they couldn't use that to gain control.  We also have Javik that tells us they never finished it.  He doesn't say why, but we can extrapolate from what Vendetta tells us, what we learned from Vigil and Javik that it wasn't finished because they didn't have the Citadel.  Ours is, in so far as we know, the first cycle that didn't lose the Citadel out of the gate.  We owe that to the Protheans who sabotaged it after the Reapers left.  What did we do with that reprieve?  We did nothing.  The galaxy's collective leadership denied the existance of the Reapers, as I said previously, before they even had Sovereign's remains cleaned out of the Presidium.  Do you want confirmation of that?  Talk to Avina the first time you go to the Citadel in ME 2.

Joker tells you the same thing in autodialog right after you meet him in ME 2.  Donnely and Gabby tell you the same thing the first time you talk to them.  Miranda gives you the same message in metagame fashion in her initial conversation with TIM, you know, in that opening cutscene you can't skip.  All of the leadership of the Council races denies the existence of the Reapers, even after the events of Arrival, if you played it.  Is it any wonder that the Reapers bend them over a basin right out of the gate, despite not having the Citadel first?

This last little exposition on my part is exactly why a Self Righteous Paragon, or Renegade Shepard could choose Refusal.  If they are too stupid to save themselves, why should I save them?  Maybe the next cycle, with Liara's help, will approach the problem more sensibly, and end this, but I couldn't justify further inflicting their overall stupidity on the galaxy.  Yes, I'm going to die, but here's a shocker:  I die in almost every playthrough, before I ever get to this mess.  I choose not to play these endings, except when I get tired of running the same save over and over, so I finished it a second time to give myself two Shepards to replay with.  I actually enjoy the game, I just don't buy ever getting to SC.  Surviving a laser blast that rips cruisers in half, play the cutscene when you first go to Palaven, is a bigger lie than anything the SC could ever tell me, assuming I ever thought for a minute it's lying.

[robertthebard]

Khajiit Jzargo wrote...

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

Look you just changed the rules. You can't do that. We already had the crucible built. Done. Finished. Completed. I'm talking from the end of the game from Cronos onward. You're talking from a point of Mars before we even built the Crucible. Apples =/= Oranges.

But you're still talking a 0% chance. I'm going to do you even better. I'm going to change the rules.

The problem lies NOT in ME3. The problem lies at the end of ME1 with the council retcon from "let's prepare to fight the reapers" to becoming complete and utter dumbasses worthy of being shot just for the crime of being so stupid for breathing air and consuming food that others of higher intelligence might have been able to breathe and consume. I just hope that group mercifully removed themselves from the gene pool before breeding.

What you're doing is going back to the beginning and rewriting the game. Okay you want to do that? Fine. I want to go back and retcon the Council not becoming complete ****ing idiots after ME1.

I want to take large samples of Sovereign not to idiots at the Alliance military or the Turian Hierarchy and Asari or Salarians but to the renegade Quarian scientists like Admiral Xen and Admiral Rael who won't say "Ah yes 'reapers.' We've dismissed that myth." "There's nothing to indicate that Sovereign wasn't a geth ship." And they had Shepard fighting Geth. Geth! When we all knew who the real enemy was! The Reapers. What a waste!

Do you see where the problem really is? It's not in the Crucible. It's in just after ME1.

Those two will actually do some testing of the materials and come up with some technological advancements we can use, and maybe a something far more advanced than copying a small scale thanix cannon. Something that could actually penetrate a reaper hull and shield. They may also come up with better ship armor. Maybe if we could get them hooked up with another renegade Salarian scientist like Mordin Solus instead of wasting his time on a cure for the genophage he could work with them on some counter-indoctrination technology and we could really stand a chance. And when we had something offer to turn over our findings to the council. They'd be hard pressed to dismiss the Quarian admiralty and Salarian STG Scientists who can tell Geth from something far more advanced.

Oh they'd be hollering at Shepard for treason for bringing secrets to a potential enemy of the council, but **** them. Shepard doesn't go all dumb **** either. And Anderson doesn't have to kiss ass on it either. "Fine, you don't want it? We do. We'll build the ships. We'll be ready, and the Quarians will be ready." Of course the Council will protest vehemently about provoking a war, to which the response is "then take the specs, get off your asses and start building. The reapers won't be playing politics. Sovereign clearly wasn't geth." "How many can we build?" "As many as you can and as fast as you can. They will be here."

Okay, so now Shepard doesn't get killed fighting Geth, doesn't go with Cerberus, and the Alliance investigates the Collector attacks with the SR-2 Normandy which can take the Collector Cruiser easily in a head to head battle, and now we do ME2 except with the Alliance in charge.

ME3 gets here. The Reapers get a welcoming committee like they've never had. They may take the Batarians by surprise, but when they hit the Arcturus fleet they start getting pounded.

But you know put Xen, Rael and Solus on the Crucible anyway. Build it. Figure out what it does. Modify it so that it does ONE thing and ONE thing only, and set it up so that you can remote fire it via quantum entanglement. This instead of blindly following plans. Put some real geniuses to work on it. We want it to make a feedback loop to fry a big mass relay, and detonate another big mass relay.

We know two things about the reapers. They activate in dark space when the Citadel relay opens so they can come through. And they home in on the Citadel to go back whtn the relay activates again. So now with counter-indoctrination measures in place, you get a team inside the Citadel via the Conduit on Ilos, which was conveniently forgotten about because everyone went full retard, so now you've got control of the Citadel. Then your team keeps the arms open. You dock the Crucible. Then you Skyjack Harbinger, and once you have control you hack him and force Harbinger to open the Citadel Relay to dark space and summon all the reapers to leave -- we're done. When the last reaper has left, you destroy Harby's Mass Effect Core, then bail out like you did on the derelict reaper -- Harby gets sucked through the relay. Then EDI launches a few QE probes through the relay, and fires the Crucible and it blows the Darkspace Relay (telemetry received), and fries the Citadel Relay and Citadel AI functions. OUR relays and stuff are unaffected.

It'll be years before power gets restored fully to the Citadel.

If this is what you're talking about, fine. But this is a massive rewrite of the story. This is completely changing the rules of the discussion.

Not it's not different. Your critizing me for choosing something that has failed before, when the whole plan was doing something that has failed before. That's hypocrosy.

Refusal has failed before?  We are, according to SC the first organic to set foot in his little domain.  We are, according to Vigil, the first cycle to not lose the Citadel out of the gate.  Now, I don't know how far back Vigil's info goes, but what reason does Vigil have to lie?  It's trying to help us stop the Reapers.  It even gives us a code to use to assume control of the Citadel from Saren/Sovereign.

Actually, no.  Refusal has never failed before, because if it had, we'd not be fighting the Reapers.  I don't care what you choose, or what twisted logic you use to get there, but let's not muddy the conversation with lies.  Refusal is doing nothing, and allowing the cycle to play out, although BioWare didn't make you sit through the entirety of the process.  You made your choice, and the game recognizes it, and does what's appropriate for the choice, which in this case is the Mission Failed screen?  I haven't chosen it, so I don't know.  I've been there twice, and chose Destroy twice.

[Isichar]

Pitznik wrote...

In case Shepard-Catalyst goes mad, it will be again crazy AI + reapers vs the galaxy, so no different than refusal really. Same about Reapers - once they're done, tehy can be destroyed.

One thing that worries me, is that Shepard AI can have completely different point of view than flesh and blood Shepard. Maybe for Shepard AI destroying the Reapers would be illogical? Hell knows, how exactly he thinks.

It is important to note that the Shepard Catalyst is not actually Shepard, Its a construct built around Shepards beliefs and experiences. To what extent having Shepards personaility will effect it in terms of how it thinks compared to the original catalyst is interesting to think about, and almost leaves this feeling of unease and probably made to be that way from the creators. If the Shepyst or w.e did want to he could continue the cycle and everyone would be screwed, and thats whats funny about control, your stopping the reaper threat then but the galaxy itself is still very much under reaper control.

Least thats how I view it...

[AlanC9]

Khajiit Jzargo wrote...

1-How can they keep failing? He could destroy the crucible and all it's plans if he wanted too.

They tried that before and failed. Didn't you just play the it-failed-once-so-it-should-never-be-tried-again card?

2-The catalyst hasn't communicated with TIM and Saren, but they have two similarities. They both believed in the Reapers or got to close and failed.

They were indoctrinated. Are you backing IT-Con?

Modifié par AlanC9, 18 août 2012 - 04:42 .

[Khajiit Jzargo]

robertthebard wrote...

Khajiit Jzargo wrote...

robertthebard wrote...

Khajiit Jzargo wrote...

The catalyst has every reason to lie, I'm winning. And if you want to know what I mean, just ask.

I did ask, it was the very first sentence in my post.  You quoted me, but did not address the premise, you just said you're winning.

Looking at the conditions around Earth, you are not winning.  Looking at the galaxy map going to Earth, you are not winning.  Looking at what happens to Hammer, you are not winning.  While it may look good on your Galaxy at War screen, when you actually look at the reality of the situation, you are not winning, the Reapers are, and so, have no reason to lie, unless, as I postulated in my previous post, it is a lie of omission, by not telling you about Destroy.

They aren't winning. You're on the crucible standing in the control room of a machine with the power to wipe out the entire reaper fleet. Dismantle the plan of the Catalyst entirely, perhaps even destroy the very galaxy if used improperly.

The Starchild has every single reason to get you to choose the option that retains his solution, and every single reason to lie. But tell me then, what possible reason given these circumstances would the catalyst, even supposing he was winning, have to tell the truth? 

You see, as unlikely most scenarios where we should default to truth unless proven otherwise, the burden of proof with regards to the credibility of a being who has lied not just to the Illusive Man and Saren, who let us remember both began their quest by attempting to stop the Reapers as well but also the entire galaxy thousands of times over, a being that is telling you something that appears to contravene logic, a being that not moments ago you said no one could trust. Tells you that by keeping the Reapers alive but killing yourself, you will bring about the survival of your cycle.

That is absurd.

Taken.

So you are actually railing against Synthesis and Control?  Because these are the only ones that are actually choosing to use the Crucible that leave the Reapers alive.  So because you don't want to kill yourself, and leave the Reapers alive, you choose to kill everyone, including yourself, and leave the Reapers alive.  Note that I'm not talking from a metagame perspective here, I am basing this statement entirely on the Galaxy map, what happened to Hammer, and what's happening to Sword while we are chatting with SC.  Adding in the actual definition of Refuse.

Let's look at why the Protheans didn't use the Crucible.  They didn't have control of the Citadel.  The Conduit wasn't finished until after the Reapers had gone back to Dark Space, according to Vigil, so they couldn't use that to gain control.  We also have Javik that tells us they never finished it.  He doesn't say why, but we can extrapolate from what Vendetta tells us, what we learned from Vigil and Javik that it wasn't finished because they didn't have the Citadel.  Ours is, in so far as we know, the first cycle that didn't lose the Citadel out of the gate.  We owe that to the Protheans who sabotaged it after the Reapers left.  What did we do with that reprieve?  We did nothing.  The galaxy's collective leadership denied the existance of the Reapers, as I said previously, before they even had Sovereign's remains cleaned out of the Presidium.  Do you want confirmation of that?  Talk to Avina the first time you go to the Citadel in ME 2.

Joker tells you the same thing in autodialog right after you meet him in ME 2.  Donnely and Gabby tell you the same thing the first time you talk to them.  Miranda gives you the same message in metagame fashion in her initial conversation with TIM, you know, in that opening cutscene you can't skip.  All of the leadership of the Council races denies the existence of the Reapers, even after the events of Arrival, if you played it.  Is it any wonder that the Reapers bend them over a basin right out of the gate, despite not having the Citadel first?

This last little exposition on my part is exactly why a Self Righteous Paragon, or Renegade Shepard could choose Refusal.  If they are too stupid to save themselves, why should I save them?  Maybe the next cycle, with Liara's help, will approach the problem more sensibly, and end this, but I couldn't justify further inflicting their overall stupidity on the galaxy.  Yes, I'm going to die, but here's a shocker:  I die in almost every playthrough, before I ever get to this mess.  I choose not to play these endings, except when I get tired of running the same save over and over, so I finished it a second time to give myself two Shepards to replay with.  I actually enjoy the game, I just don't buy ever getting to SC.  Surviving a laser blast that rips cruisers in half, play the cutscene when you first go to Palaven, is a bigger lie than anything the SC could ever tell me, assuming I ever thought for a minute it's lying.

No I'm not railing on Control and Synthesis, I'm railing on every single one because your accepting the Catalyst ultimantum, and agreeing with him. And any time that has done it has lead to failure. Just ask Saren.

Modifié par Khajiit Jzargo, 18 août 2012 - 05:42 .

[Khajiit Jzargo]

AlanC9 wrote...

Khajiit Jzargo wrote...

1-How can they keep failing? He could destroy the crucible and all it's plans if he wanted too.

They tried that before and failed. Didn't you just play the it-failed-once-so-it-should-never-be-tried-again card?

2-The catalyst hasn't communicated with TIM and Saren, but they have two similarities. They both believed in the Reapers or got to close and failed.

They were indoctrinated. Are you backing IT-Con?

The Reapers could easily destroy the crucible and all it's plans, and where does it say they tried that before?

2-No, I'm backing up that any reasoning with the Reapers has led to failure and indoctrination.

[BaladasDemnevanni]

Khajiit Jzargo wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

Khajiit Jzargo wrote...

1-How can they keep failing? He could destroy the crucible and all it's plans if he wanted too.

They tried that before and failed. Didn't you just play the it-failed-once-so-it-should-never-be-tried-again card?

2-The catalyst hasn't communicated with TIM and Saren, but they have two similarities. They both believed in the Reapers or got to close and failed.

They were indoctrinated. Are you backing IT-Con?

The Reapers could easily destroy the crucible and all it's plans, and where does it say they tried that before?

In the EC, the Catalyst at one point states that they believed that they had successfully destroyed all plans to the Crucible, but that clearly Organics were more capable than they had given them credit for.

[Khajiit Jzargo]

robertthebard wrote...

Refusal has failed before?  We are, according to SC the first organic to set foot in his little domain.  We are, according to Vigil, the first cycle to not lose the Citadel out of the gate.  Now, I don't know how far back Vigil's info goes, but what reason does Vigil have to lie?  It's trying to help us stop the Reapers.  It even gives us a code to use to assume control of the Citadel from Saren/Sovereign.

Actually, no.  Refusal has never failed before, because if it had, we'd not be fighting the Reapers.  I don't care what you choose, or what twisted logic you use to get there, but let's not muddy the conversation with lies.  Refusal is doing nothing, and allowing the cycle to play out, although BioWare didn't make you sit through the entirety of the process.  You made your choice, and the game recognizes it, and does what's appropriate for the choice, which in this case is the Mission Failed screen?  I haven't chosen it, so I don't know.  I've been there twice, and chose Destroy twice.

Trusting the Reapers and trying to reasoning with them has failed before. Building the crucible has failed before, but yet you do both. So how can I be criticized for choosing refusal because "It has failed before" when your doing the same. That's the point I'm trying to make.

[Khajiit Jzargo]

BaladasDemnevanni wrote...

Khajiit Jzargo wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

Khajiit Jzargo wrote...

1-How can they keep failing? He could destroy the crucible and all it's plans if he wanted too.

They tried that before and failed. Didn't you just play the it-failed-once-so-it-should-never-be-tried-again card?

2-The catalyst hasn't communicated with TIM and Saren, but they have two similarities. They both believed in the Reapers or got to close and failed.

They were indoctrinated. Are you backing IT-Con?

The Reapers could easily destroy the crucible and all it's plans, and where does it say they tried that before?

In the EC, the Catalyst at one point states that they believed that they had successfully destroyed all plans to the Crucible, but that clearly Organics were more capable than they had given them credit for.

And you think the Reapers, if they really want to, cannot destroy the Crucible and all it's plans?

[BaladasDemnevanni]

Khajiit Jzargo wrote...

BaladasDemnevanni wrote...

Khajiit Jzargo wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

Khajiit Jzargo wrote...

1-How can they keep failing? He could destroy the crucible and all it's plans if he wanted too.

They tried that before and failed. Didn't you just play the it-failed-once-so-it-should-never-be-tried-again card?

2-The catalyst hasn't communicated with TIM and Saren, but they have two similarities. They both believed in the Reapers or got to close and failed.

They were indoctrinated. Are you backing IT-Con?

The Reapers could easily destroy the crucible and all it's plans, and where does it say they tried that before?

In the EC, the Catalyst at one point states that they believed that they had successfully destroyed all plans to the Crucible, but that clearly Organics were more capable than they had given them credit for.

And you think the Reapers, if they really want to, cannot destroy the Crucible and all it's plans?

You asked where the Reapers claimed that they tried to do that before. Your claim was answered.

But considering their "success" so far in preventing every subsequent civilization in discovering the Crucible plans, Mars, and the Prothean beacons/Ilos in general, as well as the Catalyst praising our capabilities, no, I really don't think so.

Modifié par BaladasDemnevanni, 18 août 2012 - 05:53 .

[robertthebard]

Khajiit Jzargo wrote...

No I'm not railing on Control and Synthesis, I'm railing on every single one because your accepting the Catalyst ultimantum, and agreeing with him. And any time that has done it has lead to failure. Just ask Saren.

Can you point me to where Saren met the Catalyst?  I'd like to see that.  In fact, can you document any time that anyone has accepted or rejected the Catalyst before Shepard talks to it?  Did TIM even get to talk to it?  Based on his lingering obssession with controling the Reapers, I'd say no, but hey, if you can point me to some official source that says otherwise, I'd gladly peruse it to update what I know.

[Khajiit Jzargo]

robertthebard wrote...

Khajiit Jzargo wrote...

No I'm not railing on Control and Synthesis, I'm railing on every single one because your accepting the Catalyst ultimantum, and agreeing with him. And any time that has done it has lead to failure. Just ask Saren.

Can you point me to where Saren met the Catalyst?  I'd like to see that.  In fact, can you document any time that anyone has accepted or rejected the Catalyst before Shepard talks to it?  Did TIM even get to talk to it?  Based on his lingering obssession with controling the Reapers, I'd say no, but hey, if you can point me to some official source that says otherwise, I'd gladly peruse it to update what I know.

Well by saying I meant to say Reapers. Anyone who has come in a lot of contact with Reapers has become indoctrinated (, Amanda Kenson, The batarians of Levianthan of Dis) any one who has wanted the Reapers in their future (TIM, Saren,The Prothean VI, Vendetta, tells you that there was a splinter Prothean group who split apart and wanted to control the Reapers, but they failed. He also tells you countless cycles have tried the same, but they failed.) and anyone who tries to reason with the Reapers has met a horrible faith. So now your standing on the Crucible, and they're telling you all you have to do is jump into a beam, hold two handles, or shoot a tube and all would make you die but then he says  you would save your cycle by dying, and you believe him?

[Khajiit Jzargo]

BaladasDemnevanni wrote...

You asked where the Reapers claimed that they tried to do that before. Your claim was answered.

But considering their "success" so far in preventing every subsequent civilization in discovering the Crucible plans, Mars, and the Prothean beacons/Ilos in general, as well as the Catalyst praising our capabilities, no, I really don't think so.

Wrong.

He says he believes the concept was eridacated as it wasn't passed down, he never imples they tried to destroy it, then he says Organics are more resourceful than he thinks. You saying they tried to destroy it is speculations.

And let's just pretend your right, and they tried to destroy it. They now know how resourceful organics are and they will go  to even more measures to destroy it, it's common sense.

They aren't incapable of destroying plans, that's absurd.

Modifié par Khajiit Jzargo, 18 août 2012 - 06:06 .

[robertthebard]

Khajiit Jzargo wrote...

robertthebard wrote...

Khajiit Jzargo wrote...

No I'm not railing on Control and Synthesis, I'm railing on every single one because your accepting the Catalyst ultimantum, and agreeing with him. And any time that has done it has lead to failure. Just ask Saren.

Can you point me to where Saren met the Catalyst?  I'd like to see that.  In fact, can you document any time that anyone has accepted or rejected the Catalyst before Shepard talks to it?  Did TIM even get to talk to it?  Based on his lingering obssession with controling the Reapers, I'd say no, but hey, if you can point me to some official source that says otherwise, I'd gladly peruse it to update what I know.

Well by saying I meant to say Reapers. Anyone who has come in a lot of contact with Reapers has become indoctrinated (, Amanda Kenson, The batarians of Levianthan of Dis) any one who has wanted the Reapers in their future (TIM, Saren,The Prothean VI, Vendetta, tells you that there was a splinter Prothean group who split apart and wanted to control the Reapers, but they failed. He also tells you countless cycles have tried the same, but they failed.) and anyone who tries to reason with the Reapers has met a horrible faith. So now your standing on the Crucible, and they're telling you all you have to do is jump into a beam, hold two handles, or shoot a tube and all would make you die but then he says  you would save your cycle by dying, and you believe him?

I'd believe that before I believe that Saren spoke to the Catalyst, or that anyone really tried to "reason" with them.  I spoke to a couple of Reapers holograms, and I didn't try to reason with them, although I did try in ME 1 to figure them out.  I would believe SC before I'd believe that anyone else built the Crucible and it failed.  Especially since we have it on pretty good authority that the Protheans never finished it.  Saren lived on Sovereign for we have no idea how long, Benezia was turned after a few weeks, but I'm supposed to believe that a hologram indoctrinates me in a few minutes?  I think what I do believe is that you have talked yourself into a corner, and have forced yourself to scratch and claw for a way out.  To the point of altering things presented over the course of three games to try to suit what you want us to believe.

Here's the kicker.  I don't want you to believe anything.  I would like to understand your position, but it's so fluid that I can't tie it down.  Every time I think I'm getting close to it, it changes, or I have to change things presented in the story to make them fit what you're telling me, until I ask specifically about that.  Can you, for example, show me any dialog with Saren where he tried to reason with Sovereign?  He surrendered to it, but I don't recall any dialog where he tried to reason with it, he does try to reason with you, to make you come around to his way of thinking, but I don't recall anything where he's trying to reason with Sovereign.