925 réponses à ce sujet

[DPSSOC]

Isichar wrote...

Omanisat wrote...

You kill ALL the races, for nothing but some ill defined concept of "morality."

Did i now? Here I thought that was the reapers and catalyst doing the killing, I must have missed something.

What is the greater evil, to commit an evil act, or to have the power to stop one and do nothing.

[AlexMBrennan]

What is the greater evil

Oh come on, clearly committing an act of evil is the greater evil...
Sure, standing by and doing nothing is bad, but it's not as bad as Shepard personally shooting everyone

[AlanC9]

Isichar wrote...
And do these people have anymore reason for believing that the crucible is anymore likely to help them win then conventional warfare? The reapers were a situation with no hope, so people placed hope in something they did not understand because they had no choice. People do this everyday in life too. Sure the crucible may have worked, it could have also been us throwing resources into something that could never have worked too, which would have made the choice to even try it worse then trying to win by conventional means.

I asked why you thought the war was winnable, not why you might think the Crucible  might not work. Do you actually have an answer for the question I asked? 

As for what you posted instead of an answer, it makes no sense. Since the probability of winning without the Crucible is zero, building and using the Crucible can't make that probability any lower.

[AlanC9]

AlexMBrennan wrote...

What is the greater evil

Oh come on, clearly committing an act of evil is the greater evil...
Sure, standing by and doing nothing is bad, but it's not as bad as Shepard personally shooting everyone

If you're one of the dead people, do you care who killed you?

Modifié par AlanC9, 14 août 2012 - 05:41 .

[Geneaux486]

Isichar wrote...

Trillions of deaths from the reapers, lives destroyed in the most horrible way possible. By using the crucible you are justifying what the reapers have done to countless organic cycles.

By using the crucible you are justifying that all trillions of deaths were worth it just to save your one cycle. It is selfish and ignores those who died to actually stop the reapers, not submit to them.


Synthesis is the ultimate renegade option, you are saying the ends justify the means.

I'm sure that's a comforting thought to Shepard as his friends and allies scream and plead with him to use the Crucible as they're being melted down into Reaper goo. 

And the logic behind your sentiment is flawed anyway.  Synthesis isn't the Reaper solution, Reaperfication is.  Synthesis actually invalidates what the Reapers have done, as opposed to justifying it.  It disproves the notion that their solution is the best, that they are the highest form of evolution.  It solves the problem while preserving individuality, something the Reapers abhor.

Modifié par Geneaux486, 14 août 2012 - 05:45 .

[AlanC9]

AlexMBrennan wrote...
Incorrect. Using the crucible saves the current cycle AND all subsequent ones. Not using it not only dooms us, but also every subsequent cycle to the same grim fate - a fate worse than death for billions every 50k years. This cycle did as well as they did due to a lot of luck (protheans disabling the keepers, Shepard taking down Sovereign, etc). You have no reason to think that the next cycle will do as well (never mind better) than the current one.  

Fortunately,  this doesn't happen. Liara's sensible enough to give the Crucible  plans to the next (or next+1, next+2 ??) cycle. Presumably their new improved Crucible doesn't have an idiot at the controls.

[Isichar]

SeptimusMagistos wrote...

Isichar wrote...

The reapers lost the moment the crucible was created and was able to be passed onto another cycle, not the moment it was fired.

So...you'd be okay with another cycle using the crucible?

Also, could you please explain why you keep suggesting that picking one of the endings constitutes submission? There isn't exactly a Tell The Reapers To Keep Up The Good Work ending or a Plead For Your Pathetic Life ending.

The reason the reapers fail is not because of the use of the crucible itself, but because the reapers are unable to control the cycles properly. The cycle itself became flawed because of the interaction from one cycle to another, not because of the crucibles direct use.

Another example of this is the protheons making it so the reapers could not pour through the citadel relay when it was time for the cycle to restart. This in itself may not have actively defeated the reapers but it showed they could not completely fulfill their task, which in its own small way did end up help defeating the reapers.

Its the cycles interacting that became an issue, not simply the crucible itself.

As for your second point, firing the crucible is not submitting to them as in becoming slaves (although at the time you could certainly believe it would result that way) but that you are submitting to the catalysts logic and solution as to how to handle the situation. Even in destroy you are still handling the situation in the way the catalyst feels is best, which is why he lets you choose it and not destroy. To him the lives of those fighting means nothing, he only cares about his purpose, whether or not everyone dies in this cycle or not does not even have to factor into the choice unless the player chooses it. This is why refuse is not acceptable from the catalyst but refuse is. Even if it is not a better solution destroy is still arguably a solution, one that is just likely to revert back to the same situation.

So even with destroy you are still handling things his way, and his way has involved the deaths of trillions.

I have received much bashing on this topic for "letting billions die" from people who seem to quickly forget who has done all the killing here, and who will continue to kill.

If you dont feel firing the crucible justifys what the reapers did then  thats your choice. But trillions died for a reason they did not even have explained to them from the same guy who is handing these options to you. The crucible can not be fired without the catalyst, he is letting you fire not because he cares about your morals or motives, or the lives of those you care about but because they fit with his goals. The same goals which started the killing to begin with.

Yes as flimsy as this moral may be: I would rather die then work with the catalyst, murderer of trillions.

[Master Xanthan]

AlexMBrennan wrote...

What is the greater evil

Oh come on, clearly committing an act of evil is the greater evil...
Sure, standing by and doing nothing is bad, but it's not as bad as Shepard personally shooting everyone

If you want to minimize casualties, why not pick Control? Sure people say the Shepard AI might go insane after a while but that's just speculation. You can just headcannon that Shep AI does things right. 

[Geneaux486]

Master Xanthan wrote...
 You can just headcannon that Shep AI does things right. 

As of the EC it isn't even headcanon, we're pretty much told and shown straight up that Shepard does things right.

[Isichar]

Master Xanthan wrote...

AlexMBrennan wrote...

What is the greater evil

Oh come on, clearly committing an act of evil is the greater evil...
Sure, standing by and doing nothing is bad, but it's not as bad as Shepard personally shooting everyone

If you want to minimize casualties, why not pick Control? Sure people say the Shepard AI might go insane after a while but that's just speculation. You can just headcannon that Shep AI does things right. 

Ah yes headcanon, the simple fix to all the ending issues

[Geneaux486]

Isichar wrote...

Master Xanthan wrote...

AlexMBrennan wrote...

What is the greater evil

Oh come on, clearly committing an act of evil is the greater evil...
Sure, standing by and doing nothing is bad, but it's not as bad as Shepard personally shooting everyone

If you want to minimize casualties, why not pick Control? Sure people say the Shepard AI might go insane after a while but that's just speculation. You can just headcannon that Shep AI does things right. 

Ah yes headcanon, the simple fix to all the ending issues

Headcanon's the leading cause of ending issues, I've found.

[Isichar]

Geneaux486 wrote...

Isichar wrote...

Master Xanthan wrote...

AlexMBrennan wrote...

What is the greater evil

Oh come on, clearly committing an act of evil is the greater evil...
Sure, standing by and doing nothing is bad, but it's not as bad as Shepard personally shooting everyone

If you want to minimize casualties, why not pick Control? Sure people say the Shepard AI might go insane after a while but that's just speculation. You can just headcannon that Shep AI does things right. 

Ah yes headcanon, the simple fix to all the ending issues

Headcanon's the leading cause of ending issues, I've found.

Well, it goes both ways.

[beaverskenneth]

Isichar wrote...

Trillions of deaths from the reapers, lives destroyed in the most horrible way possible. By using the crucible you are justifying what the reapers have done to countless organic cycles.

By using the crucible you are justifying that all trillions of deaths were worth it just to save your one cycle. It is selfish and ignores those who died to actually stop the reapers, not submit to them.


Synthesis is the ultimate renegade option, you are saying the ends justify the means.

I think you're crazy. To refuse to use the crucible is an insult to the memories of the trillions of lives lost more than choosing synthesis is. Granted, I think synthesis is the worst ending out of the main three, but to say that choosing refuse is logical is just plain idiotic. By refusing, you are basically saying "f*ck the casualties and the soldiers that died for the cause. I'm not doing it." 

It's just plain idiotic to refuse...as well as to choose synthesis. The only good (extended cut) endings are destroy and control. At least if you can control them, you can make the Reapers help and stop killing people. If you choose synthesis, you are DESTROYING what makes organic life so unique! I agree on your point of view about synthesis, but refusal is just worse.

[Yakko77]

And the next cycle beat the Reapers with what? Space unicorns?

They chose Destroy... as did I when I found out that Refuse ending is essentially a F U ending where everyone dies.

Modifié par Yakko77, 14 août 2012 - 05:54 .

[SeptimusMagistos]

Isichar wrote...

SeptimusMagistos wrote...

Isichar wrote...

The reapers lost the moment the crucible was created and was able to be passed onto another cycle, not the moment it was fired.

So...you'd be okay with another cycle using the crucible?

Also, could you please explain why you keep suggesting that picking one of the endings constitutes submission? There isn't exactly a Tell The Reapers To Keep Up The Good Work ending or a Plead For Your Pathetic Life ending.

The reason the reapers fail is not because of the use of the crucible itself, but because the reapers are unable to control the cycles properly. The cycle itself became flawed because of the interaction from one cycle to another, not because of the crucibles direct use.

Another example of this is the protheons making it so the reapers could not pour through the citadel relay when it was time for the cycle to restart. This in itself may not have actively defeated the reapers but it showed they could not completely fulfill their task, which in its own small way did end up help defeating the reapers.

Its the cycles interacting that became an issue, not simply the crucible itself.

As for your second point, firing the crucible is not submitting to them as in becoming slaves (although at the time you could certainly believe it would result that way) but that you are submitting to the catalysts logic and solution as to how to handle the situation. Even in destroy you are still handling the situation in the way the catalyst feels is best, which is why he lets you choose it and not destroy. To him the lives of those fighting means nothing, he only cares about his purpose, whether or not everyone dies in this cycle or not does not even have to factor into the choice unless the player chooses it. This is why refuse is not acceptable from the catalyst but refuse is. Even if it is not a better solution destroy is still arguably a solution, one that is just likely to revert back to the same situation.

So even with destroy you are still handling things his way, and his way has involved the deaths of trillions.

I have received much bashing on this topic for "letting billions die" from people who seem to quickly forget who has done all the killing here, and who will continue to kill.

If you dont feel firing the crucible justifys what the reapers did then  thats your choice. But trillions died for a reason they did not even have explained to them from the same guy who is handing these options to you. The crucible can not be fired without the catalyst, he is letting you fire not because he cares about your morals or motives, or the lives of those you care about but because they fit with his goals. The same goals which started the killing to begin with.

Yes as flimsy as this moral may be: I would rather die then work with the catalyst, murderer of trillions.

He doesn't care about my morals? That's fine. I don't care about his either. I don't feel that his ideas on synthetics are correct. I don't think it was right that he destroyed even one person. I don't care about his justifications. I'm stopping the Reapers using the tools at my disposal in a way that minimizes casualties. If the only reason I can do that is because he's letting me I don't care about that either. I am justifying nothing and once I take his place I'm using the Reapers to undo as much of the damage he did as is possible.

[Geneaux486]

beaverskenneth wrote...
 If you choose synthesis, you are DESTROYING what makes organic life so unique!

You're enhancing what makes organic life unique.  I'm sure you've seen the cutscenes, humans are still humans, krogan are still krogans, turians are still turians, etc.  Granted I don't like it either, but that's just because I feel like if it really is the final evolutionary stage, they'd need to reach it on their own.

[Isichar]

beaverskenneth wrote...

Isichar wrote...

Trillions of deaths from the reapers, lives destroyed in the most horrible way possible. By using the crucible you are justifying what the reapers have done to countless organic cycles.

By using the crucible you are justifying that all trillions of deaths were worth it just to save your one cycle. It is selfish and ignores those who died to actually stop the reapers, not submit to them.


Synthesis is the ultimate renegade option, you are saying the ends justify the means.

I think you're crazy. To refuse to use the crucible is an insult to the memories of the trillions of lives lost more than choosing synthesis is. Granted, I think synthesis is the worst ending out of the main three, but to say that choosing refuse is logical is just plain idiotic. By refusing, you are basically saying "f*ck the casualties and the soldiers that died for the cause. I'm not doing it." 

It's just plain idiotic to refuse...as well as to choose synthesis. The only good (extended cut) endings are destroy and control. At least if you can control them, you can make the Reapers help and stop killing people. If you choose synthesis, you are DESTROYING what makes organic life so unique! I agree on your point of view about synthesis, but refusal is just worse.

I am insulting the memorys of the trillions of lives killed by the reapers by not giving the reapers what they wanted?

And what if they crucible had turned out to be a trap set by the reapers to let us do their job for then? This is something quite a few people I have talked to thought was going to happen. What if firing the crucible resulted in the deaths of everyone due to a misfire, or even it just been set up as a trap to begin with? In life you don't get to reload if you don't like the choice made. In the game you had no more reason to believe the crucible would work then to believe you could win with conventional means. 

Actually you can argue you do have more reason to believe that, but that would be an opinion, because I did not, and I know others who did not think it would work either. This is even more true when you find out you need the reapers consent just to fire the damn thing.

[AresKeith]

Geneaux486 wrote...

beaverskenneth wrote...
 If you choose synthesis, you are DESTROYING what makes organic life so unique!

You're enhancing what makes organic life unique.  I'm sure you've seen the cutscenes, humans are still humans, krogan are still krogans, turians are still turians, etc.  Granted I don't like it either, but that's just because I feel like if it really is the final evolutionary stage, they'd need to reach it on their own.

so you think having everyone's mind connected to the Reapers and being partly synthetic now is the final evolutionary stage?

[AlanC9]

Isichar wrote...
I have received much bashing on this topic for "letting billions die" from people who seem to quickly forget who has done all the killing here, and who will continue to kill.

They'll continue to kill only if you're stupid crazy enough to let them

Modifié par AlanC9, 14 août 2012 - 06:00 .

[Geneaux486]

AresKeith wrote...

Geneaux486 wrote...

beaverskenneth wrote...
 If you choose synthesis, you are DESTROYING what makes organic life so unique!

You're enhancing what makes organic life unique.  I'm sure you've seen the cutscenes, humans are still humans, krogan are still krogans, turians are still turians, etc.  Granted I don't like it either, but that's just because I feel like if it really is the final evolutionary stage, they'd need to reach it on their own.

so you think having everyone's mind connected to the Reapers and being partly synthetic now is the final evolutionary stage?

Well it's a fictional story and that's how the authors chose to write it, so yes. 

[SeptimusMagistos]

Isichar wrote...

And what if they crucible had turned out to be a trap set by the reapers to let us do their job for then?

Given that they're currently firing on it and that you found it in a Prothean archive and had it confirmed by a Prothean VI, this would take an extremely elaborate ploy.

[ATLAS1192]

AlanC9 wrote...

Isichar wrote...
I have received much bashing on this topic for "letting billions die" from people who seem to quickly forget who has done all the killing here, and who will continue to kill.

They'll continue to kill only if you're stupid crazy enough to let them

QFT

[Geneaux486]

SeptimusMagistos wrote...

Isichar wrote...

And what if they crucible had turned out to be a trap set by the reapers to let us do their job for then?

Given that they're currently firing on it and that you found it in a Prothean archive and had it confirmed by a Prothean VI, this would take an extremely elaborate ploy.

Plus the Reapers are winning anyway, so if it is a trap, taking that chance means the worst that happens is the exact same thing that happens if you don't use it at all.

[Isichar]

SeptimusMagistos wrote...

Isichar wrote...

And what if they crucible had turned out to be a trap set by the reapers to let us do their job for then?

Given that they're currently firing on it and that you found it in a Prothean archive and had it confirmed by a Prothean VI, this would take an extremely elaborate ploy.

DId you miss the part were the protheon AI clearly states the protheons (who we thought had created the crucible) had NOT created the crucible and did not know who did?

[AresKeith]

Geneaux486 wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

Geneaux486 wrote...

beaverskenneth wrote...
 If you choose synthesis, you are DESTROYING what makes organic life so unique!

You're enhancing what makes organic life unique.  I'm sure you've seen the cutscenes, humans are still humans, krogan are still krogans, turians are still turians, etc.  Granted I don't like it either, but that's just because I feel like if it really is the final evolutionary stage, they'd need to reach it on their own.

so you think having everyone's mind connected to the Reapers and being partly synthetic now is the final evolutionary stage?

Well it's a fictional story and that's how the authors chose to write it, so yes. 

I'm sorry even for a Sci-fi game Synthesis is BS, it went from Science Fiction to Science Fantasy