925 réponses à ce sujet

[Geneaux486]

AresKeith wrote...

Geneaux486 wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

Geneaux486 wrote...

beaverskenneth wrote...
 If you choose synthesis, you are DESTROYING what makes organic life so unique!

You're enhancing what makes organic life unique.  I'm sure you've seen the cutscenes, humans are still humans, krogan are still krogans, turians are still turians, etc.  Granted I don't like it either, but that's just because I feel like if it really is the final evolutionary stage, they'd need to reach it on their own.

so you think having everyone's mind connected to the Reapers and being partly synthetic now is the final evolutionary stage?

Well it's a fictional story and that's how the authors chose to write it, so yes. 

I'm sorry even for a Sci-fi game Synthesis is BS, it went from Science Fiction to Science Fantasy

It was already science fantasy. 

[AlanC9]

Isichar wrote...

SeptimusMagistos wrote...

Isichar wrote...

And what if they crucible had turned out to be a trap set by the reapers to let us do their job for then?

Given that they're currently firing on it and that you found it in a Prothean archive and had it confirmed by a Prothean VI, this would take an extremely elaborate ploy.

DId you miss the part were the protheon AI clearly states the protheons (who we thought had created the crucible) had NOT created the crucible and did not know who did?

So why fire on it? Why not let it dock?

[SeptimusMagistos]

Isichar wrote...

SeptimusMagistos wrote...

Isichar wrote...

And what if they crucible had turned out to be a trap set by the reapers to let us do their job for then?

Given that they're currently firing on it and that you found it in a Prothean archive and had it confirmed by a Prothean VI, this would take an extremely elaborate ploy.

DId you miss the part were the protheon AI clearly states the protheons (who we thought had created the crucible) had NOT created the crucible and did not know who did?

Did you miss the part where the Reapers took pains to wipe out several civilizations before they could successfully complete the crucible?

Really, if there was a device which did the Reapers' jobs for them they could just go ahead and build it themselves. Or at least let the organics actually finish the darn thing instead of meticulously doing the conventional reaping.

Occam's Razor.

[Geneaux486]

AlanC9 wrote...
So why fire on it? Why not let it dock?

Reverse psychology!

[Isichar]

AlanC9 wrote...

Isichar wrote...
I have received much bashing on this topic for "letting billions die" from people who seem to quickly forget who has done all the killing here, and who will continue to kill.

They'll continue to kill only if you're stupid crazy enough to let them

Yes I suppose you would have to be crazy to question a magic spacegun fusing all life and machines together in the galaxy by jumping in a beam as been the solution to ending the reaper threat.

I am not letting them do anything, I am refusing to fire the crucible, you see that as been the direct choice to let everyone die, its not.

[Cobalt2113]

Isichar wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

Isichar wrote...
I have received much bashing on this topic for "letting billions die" from people who seem to quickly forget who has done all the killing here, and who will continue to kill.

They'll continue to kill only if you're stupid crazy enough to let them

Yes I suppose you would have to be crazy to question a magic spacegun fusing all life and machines together in the galaxy by jumping in a beam as been the solution to ending the reaper threat.

I am not letting them do anything, I am refusing to fire the crucible, you see that as been the direct choice to let everyone die, its not.

Why do you keep thinking that synthesis is the only option when firing the crucible? It isn't.

Modifié par Cobalt2113, 14 août 2012 - 06:16 .

[Geneaux486]

Isichar wrote...
you see that as been the direct choice to let everyone die, its not.

No, it isn't.  It's the direct choice to let everyone be processed into Reapers.

Modifié par Geneaux486, 14 août 2012 - 06:17 .

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

I prefer to take the option that kills the Reapers and saves most of the current cycle.

Sorry brobots, your sacrifice will be remembered in the coming empire.

[SeptimusMagistos]

Also you're sort of jumping around between questioning the morality of using the crucible and questioning the premise of the crucible itself.

I'd rather you stuck to the former myself. The latter's been done and it bores me. Yes, the Crucible is real. Yes, I trust the Protheans and their predecessors enough to use it. No, I don't necessarily trust the Catalyst, but I don't think he has enough motivation to lie to me and there are only the three objects to interact with anyway so I'm picking one and hoping that it's the one I want. If not, well, any of the options are preferable to letting the Reapers keep doing what they've been doing.

[Master Xanthan]

Isichar wrote...

Master Xanthan wrote...

AlexMBrennan wrote...

What is the greater evil

Oh come on, clearly committing an act of evil is the greater evil...
Sure, standing by and doing nothing is bad, but it's not as bad as Shepard personally shooting everyone

If you want to minimize casualties, why not pick Control? Sure people say the Shepard AI might go insane after a while but that's just speculation. You can just headcannon that Shep AI does things right. 

Ah yes headcanon, the simple fix to all the ending issues

Well if you want the truth, there's a horrible downside to every ending. In Destroy, Edi and Geth die. Control, the reapers are alive and Shepard AI could go nuts, Synthesis, reapers are alive and everyone has been permanently altered into what the Reapers find suitable, and in Refuse everyone dies. Saying Refuse is the best is like finding the pile of crap that doesn't smell as bad as the others. 

[Isichar]

SeptimusMagistos wrote...

Isichar wrote...

SeptimusMagistos wrote...

Isichar wrote...

And what if they crucible had turned out to be a trap set by the reapers to let us do their job for then?

Given that they're currently firing on it and that you found it in a Prothean archive and had it confirmed by a Prothean VI, this would take an extremely elaborate ploy.

DId you miss the part were the protheon AI clearly states the protheons (who we thought had created the crucible) had NOT created the crucible and did not know who did?

Did you miss the part where the Reapers took pains to wipe out several civilizations before they could successfully complete the crucible?

Really, if there was a device which did the Reapers' jobs for them they could just go ahead and build it themselves. Or at least let the organics actually finish the darn thing instead of meticulously doing the conventional reaping.

Occam's Razor.

No I did not miss it, I just dont see how saying "you should believe what the catalyst says" as been a reason to not believe he is full of ****.

So if I feel I am getting caught in a trap, I should believe its not a trap based on what the catalyst tells me? huh?

Also how could the reapers not build the crucible before for synthesis? The catalyst tells us it was not an option, so what your telling me is that unadvanced races (several of them) were able to create tech that was beyond the reapers capabilitys in the middle of a war with the reapers. The Creation of the crucible itself is surrounded by logical flaws.

Modifié par Isichar, 14 août 2012 - 06:30 .

[Isichar]

SeptimusMagistos wrote...

Also you're sort of jumping around between questioning the morality of using the crucible and questioning the premise of the crucible itself.

I'd rather you stuck to the former myself. The latter's been done and it bores me. Yes, the Crucible is real. Yes, I trust the Protheans and their predecessors enough to use it. No, I don't necessarily trust the Catalyst, but I don't think he has enough motivation to lie to me and there are only the three objects to interact with anyway so I'm picking one and hoping that it's the one I want. If not, well, any of the options are preferable to letting the Reapers keep doing what they've been doing.

Because both contribute to the reasoning of why someone would choose refuse. Both the uncertainty of how your actions will actually play our and why morally you would not choose it anyways.

But you are correct, I have not done well at bringing these points together, though I still stand by them.

[Isichar]

Master Xanthan wrote...

Isichar wrote...

Master Xanthan wrote...

AlexMBrennan wrote...

What is the greater evil

Oh come on, clearly committing an act of evil is the greater evil...
Sure, standing by and doing nothing is bad, but it's not as bad as Shepard personally shooting everyone

If you want to minimize casualties, why not pick Control? Sure people say the Shepard AI might go insane after a while but that's just speculation. You can just headcannon that Shep AI does things right. 

Ah yes headcanon, the simple fix to all the ending issues

Well if you want the truth, there's a horrible downside to every ending. In Destroy, Edi and Geth die. Control, the reapers are alive and Shepard AI could go nuts, Synthesis, reapers are alive and everyone has been permanently altered into what the Reapers find suitable, and in Refuse everyone dies. Saying Refuse is the best is like finding the pile of crap that doesn't smell as bad as the others. 

Anyone who feels I am trying to argue why refuse is "the best" option has completely and utterly missed the point.

[Cobalt2113]

You don't need to believe anything the catalyst tells you. The logic is so simple.

Catalyst is lying; Don't fire the crucible: Everybody dies
Catalyst is lying; Fire the crucible: Everybody dies

Catalyst is telling the truth: Don't fire the crucible: Everybody dies
Catalyst is telling the truth: Fire the crucible: Everybody lives

[Isichar]

Cobalt2113 wrote...

You don't need to believe anything the catalyst tells you. The logic is so simple.

Catalyst is lying; Don't fire the crucible: Everybody dies
Catalyst is lying; Fire the crucible: Everybody dies

Catalyst is telling the truth: Don't fire the crucible: Everybody dies
Catalyst is telling the truth: Fire the crucible: Everybody lives

I notice a lot of people are answering based on the fact they know not everyone dies and not based off the PoV that firing the crucible is just as risky as not firing it. The top PoV you listed is one that will be completely ignored by a lot of people who will mindlessly type "But your killing everyone..." over and over again without realizing that at the time, you have every bit of reason not to believe the catalyst.

[Cobalt2113]

Isichar wrote...

Cobalt2113 wrote...

You don't need to believe anything the catalyst tells you. The logic is so simple.

Catalyst is lying; Don't fire the crucible: Everybody dies
Catalyst is lying; Fire the crucible: Everybody dies

Catalyst is telling the truth: Don't fire the crucible: Everybody dies
Catalyst is telling the truth: Fire the crucible: Everybody lives

I notice a lot of people are answering based on the fact they know not everyone dies and not based off the PoV that firing the crucible is just as risky as not firing it. The top PoV you listed is one that will be completely ignored by a lot of people who will mindlessly type "But your killing everyone..." over and over again without realizing that at the time, you have every bit of reason not to believe the catalyst.

No. My logic requires zero knowledge of the future.

If the catalyst is lying to you, you're screwed either way.

But IF the catalyst is telling the truth then what he just told you is obviously TRUE. Your only hope is to go for it. Otherwise everyone definitely dies.

[SeptimusMagistos]

Isichar wrote...

I notice a lot of people are answering based on the fact they know not everyone dies and not based off the PoV that firing the crucible is just as risky as not firing it. The top PoV you listed is one that will be completely ignored by a lot of people who will mindlessly type "But your killing everyone..." over and over again without realizing that at the time, you have every bit of reason not to believe the catalyst.

Fine, you belive the Crucible to be a Reaper trap or something. Based on the in-game information available to me I never did and in fact the idea never even occured to me. I also trusted the Catalyst to not have enough motivation to lie to me. I guess my judgment call worked out.

Now are you alleging that making that judgment call in the first place was an immoral decision? Because if not then it's not exactly relevant.

[JBPBRC]

Isichar wrote...

By using the crucible you are justifying that all trillions of deaths were worth it just to save your one cycle. It is selfish and ignores those who died to actually stop the reapers, not submit to them.

Refusal is the worst of all the choices.

--All the lives lost by refusing the Crucible, Shepard could've prevented by picking one of the three ending choices
--It doesn't even stop the Reapers or slow them down
--A new cycle starts, you refusing lets the Reapers reap who knows how many thousands of lives from that cycle
--The next cycle wins using the Crucible anyway, despite Liara telling them the thing doesn't work
--Refusal doesn't even let you complete the game, its a fancy game over screen/snub to fans who disagree with the Crucible

Sure it *sounds* noble, especially with Shepard and his big speech, but in reality it does nothing but cause the maximum amount of death and destruction for everyone involved.

[Isichar]

SeptimusMagistos wrote...

Isichar wrote...

I notice a lot of people are answering based on the fact they know not everyone dies and not based off the PoV that firing the crucible is just as risky as not firing it. The top PoV you listed is one that will be completely ignored by a lot of people who will mindlessly type "But your killing everyone..." over and over again without realizing that at the time, you have every bit of reason not to believe the catalyst.

Fine, you belive the Crucible to be a Reaper trap or something. Based on the in-game information available to me I never did and in fact the idea never even occured to me. I also trusted the Catalyst to not have enough motivation to lie to me. I guess my judgment call worked out.

Now are you alleging that making that judgment call in the first place was an immoral decision? Because if not then it's not exactly relevant.

Actually I am stating that from the PoV that you just admitted you never considered, that the player has every bit of reasoning to feel that the crucible been fired would cause just as much harm as good. And I have heard many others who feel the same way both on these forums and off it.

[Isichar]

Cobalt2113 wrote...

Isichar wrote...

Cobalt2113 wrote...

You don't need to believe anything the catalyst tells you. The logic is so simple.

Catalyst is lying; Don't fire the crucible: Everybody dies
Catalyst is lying; Fire the crucible: Everybody dies

Catalyst is telling the truth: Don't fire the crucible: Everybody dies
Catalyst is telling the truth: Fire the crucible: Everybody lives

I notice a lot of people are answering based on the fact they know not everyone dies and not based off the PoV that firing the crucible is just as risky as not firing it. The top PoV you listed is one that will be completely ignored by a lot of people who will mindlessly type "But your killing everyone..." over and over again without realizing that at the time, you have every bit of reason not to believe the catalyst.

No. My logic requires zero knowledge of the future.

If the catalyst is lying to you, you're screwed either way.

But IF the catalyst is telling the truth then what he just told you is obviously TRUE. Your only hope is to go for it. Otherwise everyone definitely dies.

Thats a pretty big IF considering IF he is lying your doing more harm then good.

[AlanC9]

Isichar wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...
They'll continue to kill only if you're stupid crazy enough to let them

Yes I suppose you would have to be crazy to question a magic spacegun fusing all life and machines together in the galaxy by jumping in a beam as been the solution to ending the reaper threat.

You have a bad habit of equating using the Crucible with Synthesis.

I am not letting them do anything, I am refusing to fire the crucible, you see that as been the direct choice to let everyone die, its not.

It's not the same thing? Why not? Shepard's got no reason to think that anything other than the total destruction of his cycle will happen if the Crucible doesn't work.

[AlanC9]

Isichar wrote...

Cobalt2113 wrote...

Isichar wrote...

Cobalt2113 wrote...

You don't need to believe anything the catalyst tells you. The logic is so simple.

Catalyst is lying; Don't fire the crucible: Everybody dies
Catalyst is lying; Fire the crucible: Everybody dies

Catalyst is telling the truth: Don't fire the crucible: Everybody dies
Catalyst is telling the truth: Fire the crucible: Everybody lives

I notice a lot of people are answering based on the fact they know not everyone dies and not based off the PoV that firing the crucible is just as risky as not firing it. The top PoV you listed is one that will be completely ignored by a lot of people who will mindlessly type "But your killing everyone..." over and over again without realizing that at the time, you have every bit of reason not to believe the catalyst.

No. My logic requires zero knowledge of the future.

If the catalyst is lying to you, you're screwed either way.

But IF the catalyst is telling the truth then what he just told you is obviously TRUE. Your only hope is to go for it. Otherwise everyone definitely dies.

Thats a pretty big IF considering IF he is lying your doing more harm then good.

Um.... how so? Cobalt2113 had it right. If the Catalyst is lying it does not matter what you do. You can't make things worse than total extermination.

[Isichar]

AlanC9 wrote...

Isichar wrote...

Cobalt2113 wrote...

Isichar wrote...

Cobalt2113 wrote...

You don't need to believe anything the catalyst tells you. The logic is so simple.

Catalyst is lying; Don't fire the crucible: Everybody dies
Catalyst is lying; Fire the crucible: Everybody dies

Catalyst is telling the truth: Don't fire the crucible: Everybody dies
Catalyst is telling the truth: Fire the crucible: Everybody lives

I notice a lot of people are answering based on the fact they know not everyone dies and not based off the PoV that firing the crucible is just as risky as not firing it. The top PoV you listed is one that will be completely ignored by a lot of people who will mindlessly type "But your killing everyone..." over and over again without realizing that at the time, you have every bit of reason not to believe the catalyst.

No. My logic requires zero knowledge of the future.

If the catalyst is lying to you, you're screwed either way.

But IF the catalyst is telling the truth then what he just told you is obviously TRUE. Your only hope is to go for it. Otherwise everyone definitely dies.

Thats a pretty big IF considering IF he is lying your doing more harm then good.

Um.... how so? Cobalt2113 had it right. If the Catalyst is lying it does not matter what you do. You can't make things worse than total extermination.

This is pretty simple. What if firing the crucible turned everyone into husks? Something which most IT theorists believed would happen. You have no reason to believe it wouldnt until it is actually fired. At least if its not fired you can try and fight to the death.

Why wouldnt the catalyst have done this before?

For the same reason he claims synthesis was not possible beforehand as well.

[JBPBRC]

For the same reason he claims synthesis was not possible beforehand as well.

Space magic didn't exist before the Crucible was completed and attached, so it really WAS impossible before. He spoke the truth, at least in that regard.

[Isichar]

JBPBRC wrote...

For the same reason he claims synthesis was not possible beforehand as well.

Space magic didn't exist before the Crucible was completed and attached, so it really WAS impossible before. He spoke the truth, at least in that regard.

So it makes sense that a group of organics created a device capable of altering DNA in the entire galaxy without realizing it, when a group of advanced AI's who have been around for millions if not billions of years could not create despite harvesting the cycles of the ones who made the gun? How does that seem more logical to you?