432 réponses à ce sujet

[xSNPx ZoDiaC]

Tyrannus00 wrote...

ME3 isn't about morale, it's not light hearted and and there's only one rallying cry, one right at the end. The entire theme of the game is watching an amazing, developed world crumble utterly.

So then the whole story of Javik is pointless, as is everyone else's. There is no morale. The Galaxy just crumbles anyway in BioWare's ingenious, artistically marvelous ending?

[oO Stryfe Oo]

DullahansXMark wrote...

Because the only reason the Protheans exist within the Mass Effect series is to showcase what happens when you mess with the Reapers. That's it.

This. Even if they did do it in a way that wouldn't cheapen Javik's character, they'd still be cheapening both the Reapers as an enemy and the Protheans as the mysterious cycle before us.

Also, bit of a side note; they'd need to bring back more than 'a few' if they were going to be in MP. Why anyone thinks otherwise is beyond me. Think about it this way; every kit we play is from an organization/species with a large, unspecified population. Even Samarra's remark about the Justicars being 'so few' doesn't break this pattern (after all, we have no idea her definition of few; it could be 200,000, it could be a few million).

NT121784 wrote...

This wouldn't be any worse than the lore breaking that Bioware itself has done.
I think it would be cool to do.
I almost see multiplayer as a separate game now anyway, so who cares?
But they have to do Fem Protheans too, LOL!

*facepalm*

You're trolling, right? Right...?

[xSNPx ZoDiaC]

eduardogranja wrote...

xSNPx ZoDiaC wrote...

How so? I get what you are saying but I disagree. I think by giving the Protheans(a small amount of them I may add) a second chance, this would be a major morale boost. It proves that the Reapers are not Omnipotent, they make mistakes. And if the Protheans(even a just a dozen) can survive against all odds, I would be inspired and filled with hope.

Javik survived, and his mission can still be completed. Against impossible odds, a few breathe and opnly defy the Reapers! We can do this!

Comparing Protheans to a giant is a bit of an overstatement.. They are organic and small like us. We can relate to them.

Well, good enough that you understand what i said. Just as you disagree with my point of view, i disagree with yours. There is no point arguing when you already have a 13 pages long topic and it's up to BW to decide.

But i must say Protheans would be cool, I just don't think it'd work well with the SP plot

What if they were explained through a single-player dlc?

[Tyrannus00]

xSNPx ZoDiaC wrote...

Tyrannus00 wrote...

ME3 isn't about morale, it's not light hearted and and there's only one rallying cry, one right at the end. The entire theme of the game is watching an amazing, developed world crumble utterly.

So then the whole story of Javik is pointless, as is everyone else's. There is no morale. The Galaxy just crumbles anyway in BioWare's ingenious, artistically marvelous ending?

In a sense. The reapers draw from cosmic horror, like lovecraft's old ones. The old ones were so horriblely vast is scope and power that the human mind can't figure them out. They exist in colors out of our spectrum, they're so large we don't have the numbers to express it. 

While ME started as a much harder form of Sci-fi, it's an element they wanted to keep, it's why the reapers are almost completely indestructable, unfathomable in their intent, and without number.

[xSNPx ZoDiaC]

oO Stryfe Oo wrote...

DullahansXMark wrote...

Because the only reason the Protheans exist within the Mass Effect series is to showcase what happens when you mess with the Reapers. That's it.

This. Even if they did do it in a way that wouldn't cheapen Javik's character, they'd still be cheapening both the Reapers as an enemy and the Protheans as the mysterious cycle before us.

Also, bit of a side note; they'd need to bring back more than 'a few' if they were going to be in MP. Why anyone thinks otherwise is beyond me. Think about it this way; every kit we play is from an organization/species with a large, unspecified population. Even Samarra's remark about the Justicars being 'so few' doesn't break this pattern (after all, we have no idea her definition of few; it could be 200,000, it could be a few million).

Why you think otherwise is also beyond me. Unless you have an actual source that I'm unaware of? N7 operations are clearly not front-line operations. They are covert, hence we only see 1-4 operatives at a time.

Protheans can get their supplies and "kits" from the Alliance. What's the problem exactly?

Modifié par xSNPx ZoDiaC, 19 janvier 2013 - 05:14 .

[eduardogranja]

xSNPx ZoDiaC wrote...

What if they were explained through a single-player dlc?

I have mixed feelings about it. Adding a character out of coolness or comedy (Volus) with a poor explanation is one thing. Forcing that explanation on the story is something even harder to accept. Even worse when you consider we would have to pay for it.

Protheans would be cool the same way Volus are funny on MP: I don't accept either as really lore-friendly (as i said, i consider the Protheans as an ideal), but have no problem actually playing with them

Modifié par eduardogranja, 19 janvier 2013 - 05:19 .

[Midnite Ryu]

I think protheans in MP would be great and for lore doesn't Javik mention that there were other stasis bunkers throughout the galaxy so there already is a slight lore tie in IMO.

[RasenRebirth]

Midnite Ryu wrote...

I think protheans in MP would be great and for lore doesn't Javik mention that there were other stasis bunkers throughout the galaxy so there already is a slight lore tie in IMO.

Yeah but people want a SP tie in I guess which im all for I'd love to see them added.

[Bwnci]

Protheans in the multiplayer has never been an issue of lore. As the OP correctly states, lore is "whatever its writer intends it to be".

The issue is in good and bad storytelling. To introduce any number of Protheans that could help fight a galactic war would instantaneously trivialise the "From Ashes" DLC and its character Javik. There would be no point to this tale; the sad situation it weaves and the major revelations it introduces, snuffed out almost completely by "lol there's actually plenty more of them".

-SPOILER ALERT-
On Earth, dependant on your actions, Javik will come to the decision of what to do with himself after the war. To join his conrads or live amoung the Hanar. Are you seriously suggesting they edit this DLC or completely ignore this addition that turns the story on its head? Frankly this makes Prothean in the MP impractical, although I will admit I do not know the limitations Bioware face, I believe it's fair to assume that there are some at this point.

There is so much damage control that you are ingnoring in this argument, that I can only strongly suggest that they don't do it.

[Tonymac]

The reason why this not so bad idea fails is because of the writing in ME3. (Read - really bad writing).

Had enough Protheans survived to carry on the species, they would have ruled this cycle (in most likelihood). Also, they would have provided far more assistance against the Reapers, ensuring a win, and not needing this 'Crucible'. It would have and should have been a weapon, not a battery that let the Reapers either kill, control, or assimilate everyone.

Bad writing has boxed us in. It boxed Bioware in as well.

It would have been amazing if the Protheans had hid a few fleets on some far away world - not using the Relays to tip off their existence to the Reapers. They could have honed their technologies,built theor numbers back, had everything ready to go for total war with the Reapers. If Vigil had programs that can control the Citadel, imagine what they could have learned and accomplished in the next 50,000+ years. The Reapers would not have had the advantage - and the fight would not have been in their favor.

Instead, we get Javik. *smirks*

[DullahansXMark]

I'm reserving this space for a response I write the other night but got banned before I could publish it.

[oO Stryfe Oo]

xSNPx ZoDiaC wrote...

Why you think otherwise is also beyond me. Unless you have an actual source that I'm unaware of? N7 operations are clearly not front-line operations. They are covert, hence we only see 1-4 operatives at a time.

Protheans can get their supplies and "kits" from the Alliance. What's the problem exactly?

Ok, think of it this way;

Each and every single kit we can currently play is an unimportant individual from a large group whose number we don't know. Were they to die, not much would change. The group they come from would simply be one short, which isn't saying much when that group could number in the millions. The same cannot be said of story relevant characters.

Were we only to get four Prothean kits, they'd instantly become story-relevant, as long as MP retains its connection to SP's lore. Besides, what if multiple players wanted to play the same Prothean? What if there were a female Prothean (people have asked) and all four wanted to use her? How would you explain her being cloned four times? With the current kits, this isn't a problem; again, they are extremely unimportant.

tl;dr - Were we to ever get Protheans, we'd definitely need a lot more than 4. It'd be best if we didn't know the exact number. Otherwise, there'd be problems similar to why we can't use characters like Samarra, Grunt, or Zaeed.

[Dark Tlaloc]

I played through each Mass Effect multiple times, and at the end of 3, was rewarded with an ending in which my actions didn’t really matter.

If my personal actions/choices throughout SP over the course of 100s of hours (in a game in which the entire draw was playing through a story you meaningfully impact) don’t influence the war with the Reapers particularly, why should I be constrained in MP the same way? I’d rather have fun playing whatever alien race I wish (Protheans being one of my first choices) and worry about “lore” in ME3 second.

I don’t want this to devolve into an argument about the ending; I’m simply pointing out that at this point lore (especially endgame lore) is pretty pointless.

[oO Stryfe Oo]

But...whether or not lore is pointless is kind of your opinion. Personally, I don't think so. More importantly, neither does BW.

[Clayless]

Dark Tlaloc wrote...

I played through each Mass Effect multiple times, and at the end of 3, was rewarded with an ending in which my actions didn’t really matter.

If my personal actions/choices throughout SP over the course of 100s of hours (in a game in which the entire draw was playing through a story you meaningfully impact) don’t influence the war with the Reapers particularly, why should I be constrained in MP the same way? I’d rather have fun playing whatever alien race I wish (Protheans being one of my first choices) and worry about “lore” in ME3 second.

I don’t want this to devolve into an argument about the ending; I’m simply pointing out that at this point lore (especially endgame lore) is pretty pointless.

In other words:

I don't care about the story anymore, therefore it should be broken more.

[Dark Tlaloc]

oO Stryfe Oo wrote...

But...whether or not lore is pointless is kind of your opinion. Personally, I don't think so. More importantly, neither does BW.

Well sure, I’m just giving my opinion
like everyone else in this thread. I have no issue with people who think
Protheans aren’t lore friendly-I simply completely disagree, on the same
grounds as the reason they may not make it into MP: If Bioware decides they’re
lore-friendly, they can quickly write them into lore, and suddenly everyone who
says they’re not lore-friendly becomes incorrect. Whether or not Bioware
decides this isn’t my issue; I’m just pointing out that it wouldn’t be the
first time they disregard what many consider “lore.”

[Dark Tlaloc]

Robosexual wrote...

Dark Tlaloc wrote...

I played through each Mass Effect multiple times, and at the end of 3, was rewarded with an ending in which my actions didn’t really matter.

If my personal actions/choices throughout SP over the course of 100s of hours (in a game in which the entire draw was playing through a story you meaningfully impact) don’t influence the war with the Reapers particularly, why should I be constrained in MP the same way? I’d rather have fun playing whatever alien race I wish (Protheans being one of my first choices) and worry about “lore” in ME3 second.

I don’t want this to devolve into an argument about the ending; I’m simply pointing out that at this point lore (especially endgame lore) is pretty pointless.

In other words:

I don't care about the story anymore, therefore it should be broken more.

So are you saying the story is broken? Because if you are, that’s kind of the point of what I wrote.
 



With that being said, no, that’s not how I feel; that was just one point I was making about prothean inclusion in MP.
 

 

I’ll be perfectly honest; I personally don’t equate MP with SP very much, because I’ve already completed SP many times, and MP had absolutely no bearing on it. If Bioware were to come out tomorrow and say that what happens in MP will be written into lore for MP4, then I’d feel a little more like it matters, but at the moment I don’t. I think it’s a really cool edition to Mass Effect, but it doesn’t really affect single player at all.

 

Aside from that, the reason that I’m fine with Protheans being in MP (and I’ve stated this before in this and other threads) is simply because Bioware can change lore any time they want by writing more lore.

Modifié par Dark Tlaloc, 22 janvier 2013 - 08:27 .

[Clayless]

Dark Tlaloc wrote...

oO Stryfe Oo wrote...

But...whether or not lore is pointless is kind of your opinion. Personally, I don't think so. More importantly, neither does BW.

Well sure, I’m just giving my opinion
like everyone else in this thread. I have no issue with people who think
Protheans aren’t lore friendly-I simply completely disagree, on the same
grounds as the reason they may not make it into MP: If Bioware decides they’re
lore-friendly, they can quickly write them into lore, and suddenly everyone who
says they’re not lore-friendly becomes incorrect. Whether or not Bioware
decides this isn’t my issue; I’m just pointing out that it wouldn’t be the
first time they disregard what many consider “lore.”

People have a problem with the way it nullifies a lot of the game and Javik.

There's no way hundreds or thousands of Protheans fighting all over the galaxy wouldn't be mentioned during the war, and it'd be equally as stupid to suggest that none of them were scientists capable of working on the Crucible.

[DJ Airsurfer]

Protheans2013

[Dark Tlaloc]

Robosexual wrote...

Dark Tlaloc wrote...

oO Stryfe Oo wrote...

But...whether or not lore is pointless is kind of your opinion. Personally, I don't think so. More importantly, neither does BW.

Well sure, I’m just giving my opinion
like everyone else in this thread. I have no issue with people who think
Protheans aren’t lore friendly-I simply completely disagree, on the same
grounds as the reason they may not make it into MP: If Bioware decides they’re
lore-friendly, they can quickly write them into lore, and suddenly everyone who
says they’re not lore-friendly becomes incorrect. Whether or not Bioware
decides this isn’t my issue; I’m just pointing out that it wouldn’t be the
first time they disregard what many consider “lore.”

People have a problem with the way it nullifies a lot of the game and Javik.

There's no way hundreds or thousands of Protheans fighting all over the galaxy wouldn't be mentioned during the war, and it'd be equally as stupid to suggest that none of them were scientists capable of working on the Crucible.

I understand the arguments against' have Protheans in the game, I'm just saying that if Bioware decided to put them in, something as simple as “the few protheans left in the galaxy been in hiding until
now, but when word reached them of Javik’s survival, they sent word to the
Citadel/Alliance/Shepard/whatever that they would fight with the puny
primatives to end the Reaper threat.”
 

And no, this isn’t my argument for how it should be handled
necessarily; I’m just saying if Bioware wanted to, they could, so I won’t
instantly rule it out.

[Grundle47]

Let me start by saying I don't really object to "lore-breaking" to add in Protheans.

With that said, the OP argument unfortunately doesn't work because of one fact. MP takes place (timeline-wise) at the same time as SP. So you can't really add in any drastic story points in MP without having to explain it in SP. While you're totally right about all those ways that Protheans could exist in the ME universe, none of it could happen till AFTER the conclusion of the SP story (otherwise someone would have mentioned all those new Protheans running around).

Unfortunately I don't really see a way around this lore-wise. There's not really a war to fight after the SP ends, and I don't see how they could be inserted into the timeline of the War and still explain away why Shepard, the Council, or anyone else would never have mentioned them.....
....
....But I still wouldn't complain if they tossed Protheans at us in MP anyway.

[STRANGE10VE]

Javik: I am the last of my race, the avatar of vengeance and I'm pissed off.

Shepherd: Relax buddy, we just found a bunch of Protheans(insert stupid space magic explanation)

Javik: Oh, seems like I'm not as important as I thought. The load has been lifted.

Shepherd: So, we got this big final battle going on down on earth, you in?

Javik: Nah. I think I'll hook up with the last of my people. You know, catch up, talk about the empire to come, have a few drinks and enjoy the ladies. It has been 50,000 years after all.

Shepherd: But I thought you and your people would want some righteous payback.

Javik: Well, if a few thousand of us survived the reapers once, we can do it again. You're on your own human.

Shepherd: Well, if we survive, drop me a line sometime. We'll bang ok.

Modifié par STRANGE10VE, 22 janvier 2013 - 09:18 .

[DullahansXMark]

Dark Tlaloc wrote...

I played through each Mass Effect multiple times, and at the end of 3, was rewarded with an ending in which my actions didn’t really matter.

If my personal actions/choices throughout SP over the course of 100s of hours (in a game in which the entire draw was playing through a story you meaningfully impact) don’t influence the war with the Reapers particularly, why should I be constrained in MP the same way? I’d rather have fun playing whatever alien race I wish (Protheans being one of my first choices) and worry about “lore” in ME3 second.

I don’t want this to devolve into an argument about the ending; I’m simply pointing out that at this point lore (especially endgame lore) is pretty pointless.

Here's a nice subversion for you: It's a video game. None of your choices mattered anyway. Honestly, it's like you people thought your choices would affect your real lives.

[Dark Tlaloc]

DullahansXMark wrote...

Dark Tlaloc wrote...

I played through each Mass Effect multiple times, and at the end of 3, was rewarded with an ending in which my actions didn’t really matter.

If my personal actions/choices throughout SP over the course of 100s of hours (in a game in which the entire draw was playing through a story you meaningfully impact) don’t influence the war with the Reapers particularly, why should I be constrained in MP the same way? I’d rather have fun playing whatever alien race I wish (Protheans being one of my first choices) and worry about “lore” in ME3 second.

I don’t want this to devolve into an argument about the ending; I’m simply pointing out that at this point lore (especially endgame lore) is pretty pointless.

Here's a nice subversion for you: It's a video game. None of your choices mattered anyway. Honestly, it's like you people thought your choices would affect your real lives.

First off, I’m assuming by “you people,” you mean people
disenfranchised by the ending, which, while I don’t think it was fitting of the
game before it, I’m not. Secondly, the argument that it’s a videogame and thus
my choices in the game mean nothing is taking the argument farther than its
logical conclusion. This specific series of games was based on the premise that
yes, your choices did matter. Again, I’m not one of the people who think the
game, and series were ruined by the ending; I was disappointed by it, just like
I was disappointed by the 3rd Matrix movie. Last week I purchased
Leviathan, and I plan on purchasing Omega soon (still playing too much Halo 4
and ME3 mp to justify it at the moment), so it’s not like I’m sitting here
telling you the ending on ME3 ruined my life (which actually goes on pretty
well without Mass Effect ) I’m simply saying the ending didn’t hold up to the
open-ended standards that were promised, and that the rest of the 3 games
fulfilled.

 

…Which is distracting from my original point, which was that
people arguing that everything up to this point in Mass Effect has been
perfectly lore-friendly are picking and choosing their evidence.

[mrcanada]

Skullheart wrote...

Javik, the last prothean.

That he knows of. He's a soldier that admittedly lost all contact with the empire. Each Prothean world had almost no knowledge of what the other was doing due to the nature of the Reaper attack. It is highly likely there are more pods in existence just like Javik.