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Bioware, you cannot justify day 1 DLC


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#251
billy the squid

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SP2219 wrote...

Bioware, I hate to break this to you, but your business model, as it stands, is just plain wrong.

Let me start with a quote from an article you and your friends at IGN recently put together, then I can explain to you WHY you are wrong.

"While Electronic Arts and BioWare were a little slow in taking up the free-to-play model in Star Wars: The Old Republic, BioWare has been experimenting with distribution models for its single-player role-playing games for a while. BioWare has used online passes, day one DLC and significant story additions to build revenue outside of the traditional one-time purchase price. According to Fernando Melo, director of online development at BioWare, having a post-ship plan is “absolutely fundamental to what your team needs to be doing.”
He directly answers questions about why BioWare offers day one DLC at a talk at GDC Europe, showing how despite the displeasure for such an offering, the sales numbers justify the business practice."

What worries me the most is the final paragraph, where the words "displeasure" and "justify" appear in the same sentence.  Though this is somewhat an inferal on Charles Onyett's part, it doesn't matter.  The two words are there in the same sentence.  This is not good.

Bioware, in business, there is no justification for causing your customers any degree of displeasure.  In business, you should be pursuing the opposite.  Displeasing your customers is something you should avoid at all costs.  When 90% of your customers are practically screaming at you NOT to engage in the day 1 DLC practice, it's a good idea to do exactly that.  Why?  Because they are your customers.  They are your sole source of income.  It doesn't matter what YOU think.  If your customers are not happy, you lose.  It really is that simple.

You seem to think this is justified because your sales numbers are low in relation to your production cost.  That's because your games are not of sufficient quality to boost sales numbers to where you want them to be.  The solution is to make your games better, and not release them when they are full of programming bugs, writing inconsistencies and lack of depth.  It is definitely NOT the solution to charge the customers more money for an already below par product.

It really is so simple.  If your game is good, people will buy it.  If your game is bad, people won't buy it.  The game is a single product.  Not a product that's purposefully broken into lots of little bits you have to buy seperately.  Just a single game, on a single disc.  That is all you should be concerned about.

Take a look at games like Zelda, the Metroid Prime series, the Half Life series.  Did they rely on this business practice?  The answer is a resounding no.  This is because the development teams took the time to ensure their games were of the highest quality.  Thus more people bought the game, these games produced greater profits, the money they made on sales eclipsed their production costs.

Take a look at your previous games.  Knights of the Old Republic, Jade Empire, Mass Effect 1.  These games did not have day 1 DLC.  The first two had no DLC at all, and they were better games for it.

There is writing on the wall here.  Your customers don't care about sales numbers, profit margins, or any other reason you might have for participating in the day 1 DLC practice.  Your customers simply do not want it.  Threfore you should not give it to them.

For the millionth time, it is that simple.


 


Epic fail.

Know your market, not do what the customer says. The customer is seldom right. And most of them don't have a clue what they actually want, they just know they want something (insert desire or need to be fullfilled here) Hence overblown marketing budget EA is currenty trying to reign in.

EA has relied on impulse buying and trading on reputation of IPs that have been built up over a number of years. So it has got away with it. Day 1 DLC is a business model which combines with lower production costs at the base product level to provide extra revenue, thus the ratio of cost : income increases over the life period of the game, suplimented by additional DLC. It's a clever model, but a short sighted one. At the moment the ME IP seems spent, DA I'm not sure it depends on their future showing.

However, it's apparant that EA has attempted to shift market segment. Not sure that doing so in the middle of the IP was a good idea, but still. The casual gaming segment is proportionally larger than that of the "RPG" gaming segment, for want of a better word. The view that both segments are mutually exclusive is rubbish as there will always be  significant peripheral overlap betweeen the two segments, based on customer desires. Hence it was a calculated risk to make the move to open a potential larger revenue base and risk loosing a portion of the original base. Which they have, but you'd have to see if the numbers justify the shift to a casual base, which in terms of units sold I think they have in this instance, but I don't think they can rely on the boost from the previous segment before.

Thank you and good bye

#252
AngryFrozenWater

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Cutlass Jack wrote...

SP2219 wrote...

For the millionth time, it is that simple.

Its actually simpler than that. They don't have to justify it. And you don't have to buy it.

If you dont buy it, then its exactly the same as if they did not create it. Because either way you don't get it.

Refusing to buy it can have the added advantage that when enough people refuse then they may stop using that practice. It doesn't mean that it will succeed, though. But you have to start somewhere when you don't agree.

Modifié par AngryFrozenWater, 15 août 2012 - 01:46 .


#253
Guest_DuckSoup_*

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So, because you don't want it, you think others shouldn't have the opportunity? :/

I wonder what life must be like for you beyond gaming. It must be HELL.

If you don't want it, DON'T BUY IT. It's that simple. I'm sick to death of all this complaining from people about a goddamn game. Get over yourselves.

#254
Gingeraids

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DuckSoup wrote...

So, because you don't want it, you think others shouldn't have the opportunity? :/

I wonder what life must be like for you beyond gaming. It must be HELL.

If you don't want it, DON'T BUY IT. It's that simple. I'm sick to death of all this complaining from people about a goddamn game. Get over yourselves.


This. A million times. This. 

#255
LinksOcarina

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DuckSoup wrote...

So, because you don't want it, you think others shouldn't have the opportunity? :/

I wonder what life must be like for you beyond gaming. It must be HELL.

If you don't want it, DON'T BUY IT. It's that simple. I'm sick to death of all this complaining from people about a goddamn game. Get over yourselves.


they can't, they have to be nerds.

Like I said earlier though, people knew what they were getting into since they announced a DLC character when pre-orders were on. Most of the hate comes from the character being Javik, because they find the Protheans to be on a pedastal, when realistically (as we saw in the DLC) there is little, if at all Javik contributes to the main plot. He is another gun helping you in the thick of battle, providing insight to a long since dead culture and a moment of pathos that makes him a tragic warrior poet over anything else. His otherworldlyness is what makes him interesting, but he is like Tom Bombadil in that regard, you can cut Javik out and no one would notice. 

#256
Wulfram

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DuckSoup wrote...

So, because you don't want it, you think others shouldn't have the opportunity? :/

I wonder what life must be like for you beyond gaming. It must be HELL.

If you don't want it, DON'T BUY IT. It's that simple. I'm sick to death of all this complaining from people about a goddamn game. Get over yourselves.


I don't buy it.

What I also do is not buy the game at all until the price reflects that I'm recieving an incomplete product, and leaves me with the margin to purchase that Day 1 DLC without being out of pocket if I decide I wish to.

Which ultimately results it Bioware getting less of my money.

#257
Guest_DuckSoup_*

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Wulfram wrote...

DuckSoup wrote...

So, because you don't want it, you think others shouldn't have the opportunity? :/

I wonder what life must be like for you beyond gaming. It must be HELL.

If you don't want it, DON'T BUY IT. It's that simple. I'm sick to death of all this complaining from people about a goddamn game. Get over yourselves.


I don't buy it.

What I also do is not buy the game at all until the price reflects that I'm recieving an incomplete product, and leaves me with the margin to purchase that Day 1 DLC without being out of pocket if I decide I wish to.

Which ultimately results it Bioware getting less of my money.


Sensible. 

#258
Zuzu Mumu

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SP2219 wrote...

Bioware, I hate to break this to you, but your business model, as it stands, is just plain wrong.

Let me start with a quote from an article you and your friends at IGN recently put together, then I can explain to you WHY you are wrong.

"While Electronic Arts and BioWare were a little slow in taking up the free-to-play model in Star Wars: The Old Republic, BioWare has been experimenting with distribution models for its single-player role-playing games for a while. BioWare has used online passes, day one DLC and significant story additions to build revenue outside of the traditional one-time purchase price. According to Fernando Melo, director of online development at BioWare, having a post-ship plan is “absolutely fundamental to what your team needs to be doing.”
He directly answers questions about why BioWare offers day one DLC at a talk at GDC Europe, showing how despite the displeasure for such an offering, the sales numbers justify the business practice."

What worries me the most is the final paragraph, where the words "displeasure" and "justify" appear in the same sentence.  Though this is somewhat an inferal on Charles Onyett's part, it doesn't matter.  The two words are there in the same sentence.  This is not good.

Bioware, in business, there is no justification for causing your customers any degree of displeasure.  In business, you should be pursuing the opposite.  Displeasing your customers is something you should avoid at all costs.  When 90% of your customers are practically screaming at you NOT to engage in the day 1 DLC practice, it's a good idea to do exactly that.  Why?  Because they are your customers.  They are your sole source of income.  It doesn't matter what YOU think.  If your customers are not happy, you lose.  It really is that simple.

You seem to think this is justified because your sales numbers are low in relation to your production cost.  That's because your games are not of sufficient quality to boost sales numbers to where you want them to be.  The solution is to make your games better, and not release them when they are full of programming bugs, writing inconsistencies and lack of depth.  It is definitely NOT the solution to charge the customers more money for an already below par product.

It really is so simple.  If your game is good, people will buy it.  If your game is bad, people won't buy it.  The game is a single product.  Not a product that's purposefully broken into lots of little bits you have to buy seperately.  Just a single game, on a single disc.  That is all you should be concerned about.

Take a look at games like Zelda, the Metroid Prime series, the Half Life series.  Did they rely on this business practice?  The answer is a resounding no.  This is because the development teams took the time to ensure their games were of the highest quality.  Thus more people bought the game, these games produced greater profits, the money they made on sales eclipsed their production costs.

Take a look at your previous games.  Knights of the Old Republic, Jade Empire, Mass Effect 1.  These games did not have day 1 DLC.  The first two had no DLC at all, and they were better games for it.

There is writing on the wall here.  Your customers don't care about sales numbers, profit margins, or any other reason you might have for participating in the day 1 DLC practice.  Your customers simply do not want it.  Threfore you should not give it to them.

For the millionth time, it is that simple.

 

 


hey aren't you bored of talking about this? coz i sure am bored to see people say the same thing over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over ..

#259
Kungfu Nando

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stonbw1 wrote...

Day one DLC burns me up when it is clear that the content was removed from the base game. An example I encountered recently was Arkham City where there was significant characters AND map areas that were evident, but you couldn't access without paying more. That's a bit much. Additional stuff, though, (Javik, Omega), I understand.


What day one DLC was that? Robin and catwoman? Catwoman can free if bought new and robin in a "limited" edition that was the same price?
(well at GAME in the UK)

#260
psrz

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Zuzu Mumu wrote...

hey aren't you bored of talking about this? coz i sure am bored to see people say the same thing over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over ..


yeah, who in their right mind will purposely read something they find boring if they don't need to ? 

oh wait... lmao... oh, well...

Modifié par psrz, 15 août 2012 - 05:16 .


#261
demondioma

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If Bioware hadn't released Javik as a Day 1 DLC they would have released him as a Day 100 DLC. Hardly a difference.
In the end Bioware can do whatever they want to do, they're breaking their backs too much already.

#262
Shepardtheshepard

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Kungfu Nando wrote...

stonbw1 wrote...

Day one DLC burns me up when it is clear that the content was removed from the base game. An example I encountered recently was Arkham City where there was significant characters AND map areas that were evident, but you couldn't access without paying more. That's a bit much. Additional stuff, though, (Javik, Omega), I understand.


What day one DLC was that? Robin and catwoman? Catwoman can free if bought new and robin in a "limited" edition that was the same price?
(well at GAME in the UK)


game-preorders.com/batman-arkham-city-preorder-bonus-list

 Which is why I'm waiting to get the game of the year edition.

#263
Gemini1179

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Chris Priestly wrote...

Perhaps you should read this.



:devil:


Sales numbers drop for the original retail product after launch because you aren't releasing a complete, high-quality game.

I understand that it is good 'business'- at least in the short term, but how long do you think it will be before consumers are sick and tired of games that are increasingly thin on release so content can be sold to them later?

Food for thought.

#264
oldag07

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Gemini1179 wrote...

Chris Priestly wrote...

Perhaps you should read this.



:devil:


Sales numbers drop for the original retail product after launch because you aren't releasing a complete, high-quality game.

I understand that it is good 'business'- at least in the short term, but how long do you think it will be before consumers are sick and tired of games that are increasingly thin on release so content can be sold to them later?

Food for thought.


Do you have access to Bioware's books?  How do you know this?  I can't blame a company that is losing money trying to balance its books.

#265
Errationatus

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 Dear Bioware:

You are damned if you do, and you are damned if you don't.

Enjoy.

#266
oldag07

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Some say that negative advertising hurts a politicians. Research shows that is a false assumption.
Some say, that if a company is socially responsible, that in itself will increase sales. Research shows that being irresponsible hurts sales, but going above and beyond and advertising social responsibility really doesn't increase sales.

That is life. Day 1 DLC sells.

#267
Cainne Chapel

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Gemini1179 wrote...

Chris Priestly wrote...

Perhaps you should read this.



:devil:


Sales numbers drop for the original retail product after launch because you aren't releasing a complete, high-quality game.

I understand that it is good 'business'- at least in the short term, but how long do you think it will be before consumers are sick and tired of games that are increasingly thin on release so content can be sold to them later?

Food for thought.


Examples?

For all intents and purposes, judging by the numbers I've seen, out of the gate ME3 did better than both ME1 and ME2.  and the Day One DLC sold exceptionally well as well.  So how is that a BAD thing? The game was Complete from Jump, all javik added was another character that was "MENTIONED" before hand to be a CE exclusive character and then released for the masses at launch,s o how is that not releasing a complete high quality game?

So was ME2 not high quality either because you didn't get Overlord or LOTSB or Kasumi (or Zaeed if you didnt purchase new?).

Is Skyrim not high quality because of Dawnguard now? and so forth.

bottom line is DLC is part of the industry now (and really has been since the advent of expansion packs).  To get MORE stuff, you pay more.  Simple really.  Only problem I see here is the timing of said releases, which really can go both ways

#268
Snypy

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If you understand how development cycle works nowadays (and it has been mentioned several times throughout this topic), then you shouldn't have any problems with Javik as Day One DLC.

While it enhances the experience of ME3, it doesn't really affect how the game unfolds. In other words, you can get to the very same ending regardless of whether or not you bought the DLC. An analogy: do you mind paying for a tub of popcorn at the cinema or should it be covered in the price of your ticket?

After all, why not give the people who are willing to pay an opportunity to improve their gaming experience a little bit?

Modifié par Snypy, 15 août 2012 - 08:06 .


#269
Gemini1179

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oldag07 wrote...

Gemini1179 wrote...

Chris Priestly wrote...

Perhaps you should read this.



:devil:


Sales numbers drop for the original retail product after launch because you aren't releasing a complete, high-quality game.

I understand that it is good 'business'- at least in the short term, but how long do you think it will be before consumers are sick and tired of games that are increasingly thin on release so content can be sold to them later?

Food for thought.


Do you have access to Bioware's books?  How do you know this?  I can't blame a company that is losing money trying to balance its books.


The second paragraph or so of the linked article has Fernando Melo saying that sales numbers dropped for the original retail product launch. In a market example, one can't BLAME a company for trying to balance it's books. As a consumer though, is this ok with you? Will you jus give BioWare money JUST BECAUSE they ask for it? Or do you want a quality product for what you pay?

It's like Apple people, everytime Apple releases an *iProduct, they only put it out in one colour- white- and people buy it like crazy. Then, magically, three months later, they've figured out how to release it in a Black version- and the same people buy it.

Hell, if I was one of these companies, I'd be doing the same thing. If consumers are going to allow themselves to be milked, I'd milk them. That's what day one DLC is.

#270
Zanallen

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Gemini1179 wrote...

The second paragraph or so of the linked article has Fernando Melo saying that sales numbers dropped for the original retail product launch. In a market example, one can't BLAME a company for trying to balance it's books. As a consumer though, is this ok with you? Will you jus give BioWare money JUST BECAUSE they ask for it? Or do you want a quality product for what you pay?

It's like Apple people, everytime Apple releases an *iProduct, they only put it out in one colour- white- and people buy it like crazy. Then, magically, three months later, they've figured out how to release it in a Black version- and the same people buy it.

Hell, if I was one of these companies, I'd be doing the same thing. If consumers are going to allow themselves to be milked, I'd milk them. That's what day one DLC is.


ME3 is not an incomplete game without Javik. He really adds nothing to the game. Just like ME2 wasn't incomplete without Zaeed.

#271
Cainne Chapel

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Thing is though Gemini, sales numbers always drop the second, third, fourth week. It happens to a majority of games, usually launch week is the bst overall week by average.

So I'm not getting the correlation here. Not to mention as a whole the industry is down year over year, there's a lot more that comes into play other than if Day one DLC is associated with the title.

As for the Apple reference, I see nothing wrong with what apple does, they know their market and they use it well. Its not apples fault people always need to buy the latest thing even if they dont need/use it. Apple isn't forcing them to buy both editions of the Ipod/Iphone/Ipad. They just know how to exploit their market well and there is nothing inherently wrong with it. If you're going to blame someone,b lame the ignorant consumers who always have to buy the latest and greatest.

#272
oldag07

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Gemini1179 wrote...


The second paragraph or so of the linked article has Fernando Melo saying that sales numbers dropped for the original retail product launch. In a market example, one can't BLAME a company for trying to balance it's books. As a consumer though, is this ok with you? Will you jus give BioWare money JUST BECAUSE they ask for it? Or do you want a quality product for what you pay?


Quality is subjective.  You bought it.  Clearly it was good enough for you, or else why would you be on this forum.  Clearly it was good enough for the several perfect scores the game got from review sites.  I didn't give money to Bioware.  I paid for a product.

#273
oldag07

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I have refused to give Bioware my money several times. Actually I do it most of the time. I haven't played a bioware series except for the Mass Effect series. Maybe they are really good games. I just don't really have the time to invest in a new series. But I will buy all of the story DLC for mass effect. I didn't buy the Alternate appearance pack because I didn't want them. I voted, with my money.

This might hit close to home. TOR isn't the quality that people wanted. Bioware had to make the game free to play and had to layoff people. People voted with their money. It isn't unethical. It is business.

#274
Kungfu Nando

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Shepardtheshepard wrote...

Kungfu Nando wrote...

stonbw1 wrote...

Day one DLC burns me up when it is clear that the content was removed from the base game. An example I encountered recently was Arkham City where there was significant characters AND map areas that were evident, but you couldn't access without paying more. That's a bit much. Additional stuff, though, (Javik, Omega), I understand.


What day one DLC was that? Robin and catwoman? Catwoman can free if bought new and robin in a "limited" edition that was the same price?
(well at GAME in the UK)


game-preorders.com/batman-arkham-city-preorder-bonus-list

 Which is why I'm waiting to get the game of the year edition.


AAA I could see why it would be worse in the states. In the UK we really only have GAME and Gamestation (owned by game) so We pretty much got robin and the maps no matter where we bought it (Bar supermarkets and online).

From ashes doesn't really bug me as a day one DLC, as I expected it wasn't important to the plot and I got the Collector's Edition. Althought didn't they do the same thing with Sebastion from DA2? The only thing that bugged me is that if it was a collectors edition add-on they could have held it off for a week so it atleast felt special...

#275
EpicBoot2daFace

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I always felt that any sort of online pas that includes "free" content for anyone who purahsed a new game over used was really just content withheld from the disc. I never gained any satisfaction from having to enter a code and "redeem" my special bonus for buying new.

If anything, it was an inconvenience. It was just one more thing in the way of me and my new game. I view Day-1 DLC in sort of the same way. The difference is, you have to actually pay extra for it even if you bought the game new.

I don't like this new business model. But I don't blame EA or BioWare. :ph34r:[platform elitism removed]:ph34r:

I think it's this sort of attitude that allows Day-1 DLC and online passes to persist, and it's easy for everyone to blame EA or BioWare. They aren't entirely guiltless, though. They are afterall, using these tactics knowing full well that the consumer objects. But in the end, they have an excuse: they're a business intrested in the bottom line.

Modifié par Ninja Stan, 16 août 2012 - 08:35 .