512 réponses à ce sujet

[KBomb]

AlanC9 wrote...


You could submit the DLC later and still make Day 1, since you don't have the manufacturing and shipment delays for a DLC. Whether they did do that.... beats me.

Indeed, but if the DLC isn’t made until after the main game is sent in for certification, it wouldn’t leave much time to make the entire DLC and get it certified as well. Which was my point that it has to be worked on in conjunction with the main game and not completely after the completion of it.

Fisto The Sexbot wrote...

JaegerBane wrote...

Upsettingshorts is absolutely correct - the 'full game' is what the developers define it as. It may not match your view of what it is but, as a consumer, your place is to decide whether to buy the product on offer, not decide what the product is.

JaegerBane wrote...

your own arbitrary definition of a full product

Thanks for making our place clear.

Modifié par KBomb, 19 août 2012 - 05:46 .

[Siran]

KBomb wrote...
‘From Ashes’ was not created after the game went gold. That would only allow a month or so to make the entire DLC. Javik has extensive party banter and dialogue, whether you find it significant or not. He has a pretty extensive cut scene with Liara after Thessia, too.

DLC still has to undergo certification for Sony and Microsoft that can sometimes take up to two weeks, which would leave even less time after the game went gold.

You can say that Bioware planned for Javik to be day one DLC all along, that they worked on it in conjunction with the main game for the sole purpose of being released as day one DLC, but you cannot say that ‘From Ashes’ wasn’t made until after the game went gold. If it were planned as day one, it would need to be ready to go at the same time the game was released, most likely it’s submitted for certification around the same time as the main game.

Even with “hooks” present in the game disc, I don’t see DLC being made with a window of a month or less. Not as substantial as ‘From Ashes’ or the Sebastian DLC for DA2.

Please, before jumping to conclusions, at least make the effort to read what has already been stated and is fact in the dozens of threads concerning From Ashes. Most notably this. ME3 went into certification around mid January, from where the content team worked on most of From Ashes, giving them almost 2 month to complete the DLC. Wether you believe Michael, who has been the lead producer of said DLC or your own imagination, is up to you.

Modifié par Siran, 19 août 2012 - 05:55 .

[Atakuma]

Siran wrote...

KBomb wrote...
‘From Ashes’ was not created after the game went gold. That would only allow a month or so to make the entire DLC. Javik has extensive party banter and dialogue, whether you find it significant or not. He has a pretty extensive cut scene with Liara after Thessia, too.

DLC still has to undergo certification for Sony and Microsoft that can sometimes take up to two weeks, which would leave even less time after the game went gold.

You can say that Bioware planned for Javik to be day one DLC all along, that they worked on it in conjunction with the main game for the sole purpose of being released as day one DLC, but you cannot say that ‘From Ashes’ wasn’t made until after the game went gold. If it were planned as day one, it would need to be ready to go at the same time the game was released, most likely it’s submitted for certification around the same time as the main game.

Even with “hooks” present in the game disc, I don’t see DLC being made with a window of a month or less. Not as substantial as ‘From Ashes’ or the Sebastian DLC for DA2.

Please, before jumping to conclusions, at least make the effort to read what has already been stated and is fact in the dozens of threads concerning From Ashes. Most notably this. ME3 went into certification around mid January, from where the content team worked on most of From Ashes, giving them almost 2 month to complete the DLC. Either you believe Michael, who has been the lead producer of said DLC or your own imagination, is up to you.

Given that he has practically lied about the game's ending long after he had any excuse to do so, you'll have to excuse people for not taking his word at face value.

[Siran]

Atakuma wrote...

Given that he has practically lied about the game's ending long after he had any excuse to do so, you'll have to excuse people for not taking his word at face value.

Not if people use this as an excuse to make up their own fairy tales without having any kind of knowlege about game development...

Modifié par Siran, 19 août 2012 - 06:02 .

[Fredvdp]

svenus97 wrote...

Let me educate you a bit. There is this thing called "gone gold". As in, "the game has gone gold". It's a period of around a month or so before the release date in which the finished product is being evaluated by Sony and Microsoft for the console release. During that month (or so) the devs have nothing to do, so they make DLC. Now, no publisher in their right mind would allow this for free, so, of course, the DLC costs money. Not to mention that DLC sales go down significantly the longer the game is out.

Javik is on the disc. Change two variables in your config file, and you have Javik and all his dialog.

[Atakuma]

Siran wrote...

Atakuma wrote...

Given that he has practically lied about the game's ending long after he had any excuse to do so, you'll have to excuse people for not taking his word at face value.

Not if people use this as an excuse to make up their own fairy tales without having any kind of knowlege about game development...

He did no such thing though. The fact is that a large portion of the DLC had been completed before the game went gold. The only thing that wasn't already on the disc was the mission itself. The argument that the dlc was done entirely after the game had gone gold is bupkis.

[Tipsyfresh]

Complete game is complete.

How would you classify dragon age 2? Future dlc( beyond mark of assassin)  seemed to at least be planned or hinted at or mentioned. But those were thrown out (as well as the rest of the game) so those Leads and execs can determine what's complete and what's not but those decicisions seem no different then the moving target we have already described as "complete" in this thread.  Need more help with this- see mass effect EC.

More to the point:
Why buy dlc if you haven't played the game yet(on day 1)? 

Sounds like impulse buying or blind-brand buying, if we don't have any reason to think it affects the base game in any way besides that it's listed as "extra content" dlc for whatever game. But as illustrated with Javik dlc, this stuff doesn't always happen in a vacuum (unlike dragon age 2 legacy or witchhunt:DAO -where the Add ons did just that, add on).

This is why most people here are going in circles. When it comes to ethics, agency, money - nothing is going to be straightforward. But Here are some things to note:

There is an underlying sense of disappointment from some people in regards to purchasing dlc (aka horse armor). Your video game company wants to create more content for your product? Go for it. But it should be worth it. Yea worth is subjective but that is why unsatisfaction exists. It's ok to ask for better things.

There is also a point about fairness in regards to business practices and the "willing consumer" and whether this "subscription service" should replace a generation of gaming history (see capcoms asura wrath "real endin"g). No one is against change but you can have a say in it.

Business is business. But that doesn't mean it's set in stone. Business industries have lobbyists that get paid to try and make business a certain way. To imply that it just falls out the woodwork is ignorant (for lack of a better term) at the least

Can I play games now?

Modifié par Tipsyfresh, 19 août 2012 - 06:27 .

[KBomb]

Siran wrote...

Not if people use this as an excuse to make up their own fairy tales without having any kind of knowlege about game development...

It isn’t fairy tale, it’s common sense that a DLC which has to have a very specific release date, considering it’s day one, would take more than a month to six weeks to make.
Not only are you up against extremely tight deadline, but scheduling of voice actors, Q&A, etc. I’m not arguing the semantics of ethics here, just the impossibility that it wasn’t touched until after the game went gold.

[Siran]

Atakuma wrote...


He did no such thing though. The fact is that a large portion of the DLC had been completed before the game went gold. The only thing that wasn't already on the disc was the mission itself. The argument that the dlc was done entirely after the game had gone gold is bupkis.

Neither I nor Mike Gamble said so. Please read the already mentioned statements. One of it has already been linked by me...

[JaegerBane]

Siran wrote...

Atakuma wrote...


He did no such thing though. The fact is that a large portion of the DLC had been completed before the game went gold. The only thing that wasn't already on the disc was the mission itself. The argument that the dlc was done entirely after the game had gone gold is bupkis.

Neither I nor Mike Gamble said so. Please read the already mentioned statements. One of it has already been linked by me...

Do you honestly expect that to matter to these people? The entire argument they're putting forward is half strawman and half complete guesswork - shouting about how a DLC could not possibly be written in a month (which is absolutely true, but completely irrelevant since no-one is actually claiming that) gives them a chance to vent some spleen.

[TAlTAl]

wow op, its their game they can sell it however they want to, if you dont like it just dont buy it and beside bioware gave us so much free content to please all the butthurt and your still hang up on such petty matter, grow up. lol

[KENNY4753]

the only way Bioware can justify it is by saying "EA made us do it"

[JaegerBane]

Tipsyfresh wrote...

More to the point:
Why buy dlc if you haven't played the game yet(on day 1)? 

Sounds like impulse buying or blind-brand buying, if we don't have any reason to think it affects the base game in any way besides that it's listed as "extra content" dlc for whatever game. But as illustrated with Javik dlc, this stuff doesn't always happen in a vacuum (unlike dragon age 2 legacy or witchhunt:DAO -where the Add ons did just that, add on).

Ironically this is the root of the whole issue - the developers still want to actually sell the DLC, so while its never made as a vital part of the game, it has to be suitably interesting to convince players to buy it much earlier than they'd normally buy DLCs and/or expansion packs.

The problem is that if they do well enough in drawing the player in, it creats a scenario where someone arbitrarily decides its interesting enough to 'qualify' as part of the base game. Add a bunch of people who's grasp of software development is inversely proportional to their entitlement issues (seriously, they describe thse DLCs as 'stripping content out to sell later' as if it was a freakin' apple pie that they've taken a slice of) and you have what we see here.

I mean, to be honest, I'm still chuckling about the guy who was claiming the devs were 'violating his rights' - these people don't seem to have a grasp on reality.

[Atakuma]

Modifié par Atakuma, 19 août 2012 - 07:21 .

[Snypy]

Fredvdp wrote...

Javik is on the disc. Change two variables in your config file, and you have Javik and all his dialog.

What variables in what config file are you talking about? And what do you exactly mean by 'all his dialog'? If you wish to make such claims, you should give us some proof.

Tipsyfresh wrote...

...

More to the point:
Why buy dlc if you haven't played the game yet(on day 1)? 

Sounds like impulse buying or blind-brand buying, if we don't have any reason to think it affects the base game in any way besides that it's listed as "extra content" dlc for whatever game. But as illustrated with Javik dlc, this stuff doesn't always happen in a vacuum (unlike dragon age 2 legacy or witchhunt:DAO -where the Add ons did just that, add on).

...

Actually, you're missing the point right now. It's not like you were forced to buy the Day One DLC before you had played ME3. It was made available to everyone on day one, but if you didn't trust BioWare that they would deliver, you shouldn't have bought it. It's as simple as that. Why didn't you happily finish the game without the additional content? Then, if you felt that something was missing, you could've read several reviews to help you make up your mind whether or not it's worth your money. After all, you had multiple playthroughs of ME3, right?

Modifié par Snypy, 19 août 2012 - 07:30 .

[Atakuma]

JaegerBane wrote...

Tipsyfresh wrote...

More to the point:
Why buy dlc if you haven't played the game yet(on day 1)? 

Sounds like impulse buying or blind-brand buying, if we don't have any reason to think it affects the base game in any way besides that it's listed as "extra content" dlc for whatever game. But as illustrated with Javik dlc, this stuff doesn't always happen in a vacuum (unlike dragon age 2 legacy or witchhunt:DAO -where the Add ons did just that, add on).

Ironically this is the root of the whole issue - the developers still want to actually sell the DLC, so while its never made as a vital part of the game, it has to be suitably interesting to convince players to buy it much earlier than they'd normally buy DLCs and/or expansion packs.

The problem is that if they do well enough in drawing the player in, it creats a scenario where someone arbitrarily decides its interesting enough to 'qualify' as part of the base game. Add a bunch of people who's grasp of software development is inversely proportional to their entitlement issues (seriously, they describe thse DLCs as 'stripping content out to sell later' as if it was a freakin' apple pie that they've taken a slice of) and you have what we see here.

I mean, to be honest, I'm still chuckling about the guy who was claiming the devs were 'violating his rights' - these people don't seem to have a grasp on reality.

You don't seem to have much of a grasp on the whole opinion thing. You don't have a problem with this practice and that is all fine and dandy, but some people do and they are not wrong for having that belief. 

Modifié par Atakuma, 19 août 2012 - 07:27 .

[macrocarl]

Why is this goofy thread still open?

[Pee Jae]

5 months later and... really? So, we've had let's see... 3 free multiplayer add-ons, and a weapon add-on for a measly 2 bucks and... people are still complaining about From Ashes.

Really? I think you need to go post on Capcom's forums.

[Atakuma]

t_skwerl wrote...

5 months later and... really? So, we've had let's see... 3 free multiplayer add-ons, and a weapon add-on for a measly 2 bucks and... people are still complaining about From Ashes.

Really? I think you need to go post on Capcom's forums.

What exactly do those things have to do with anything? 

[JaegerBane]

Atakuma wrote...

You don't seem to have much of a grasp on the whole opinion thing. You don't have a problem with this practice and that is all fine and dandy, but some people do and they are not wrong for having that belief. 

If a person's opinion is that pixies live at the bottom of his garden or that he's Jesus, that's his right to think that way, but he can't expect to be taken seriously.

In the same way, someone who's opinion is that they have a 'right' to all content just because, or that making DLC is a question of 'cutting' sections out of a game as if they were carving up a turkey equally can't expect to be taken seriously.

Everyone is entitled to an opinion, but that doesn't mean that their opinion actually makes sense.

Modifié par JaegerBane, 19 août 2012 - 07:36 .

[Pee Jae]

Atakuma wrote...

t_skwerl wrote...

5 months later and... really? So, we've had let's see... 3 free multiplayer add-ons, and a weapon add-on for a measly 2 bucks and... people are still complaining about From Ashes.

Really? I think you need to go post on Capcom's forums.

What exactly do those things have to do with anything? 

You'd think they'd have moved on to complaining about.. I don't know, the EC?

[Atakuma]

JaegerBane wrote...

Atakuma wrote...

You don't seem to have much of a grasp on the whole opinion thing. You don't have a problem with this practice and that is all fine and dandy, but some people do and they are not wrong for having that belief. 

If a person's opinion is that pixies live at the bottom of his garden or that he's Jesus, that's his right to think that way, but he can't expect to be taken seriously.

In the same way, someone who's opinion is that they have a 'right' to all content just because, or that making DLC is a question of 'cutting' sections out of a game as if they were carving up a turkey equally can't expect to be taken seriously.

Everyone is entitled to an opinion, but that doesn't mean that their opinion actually makes sense.

I don't have any issue with DLC in general and I don't believe From Ashes is an essential peice of content. I do believe that once you start developing dlc along with the main gameyou've crossed the line between providing additional content and simply exploiting the consumer. Sure, there's no law or anything that goes against this sort of practice and Bioware can pretty much do whatever it wants, however that doesn't mean that I have to accept it.

[Tipsyfresh]

JaegerBane wrote...

Atakuma wrote...

You don't seem to have much of a grasp on the whole opinion thing. You don't have a problem with this practice and that is all fine and dandy, but some people do and they are not wrong for having that belief. 

If a person's opinion is that pixies live at the bottom of his garden or that he's Jesus, that's his right to think that way, but he can't expect to be taken seriously.

In the same way, someone who's opinion is that they have a 'right' to all content just because, or that making DLC is a question of 'cutting' sections out of a game as if they were carving up a turkey equally can't expect to be taken seriously.

Everyone is entitled to an opinion, but that doesn't mean that their opinion actually makes sense.


If all youre going to talk about is pixies, go ahead. But this thread seems to be about something else.

[Tipsyfresh]

And jaeger, you're talking about fairies but you're perplexed when other people use hyperbole.

Reveals a lot about u.

[Siran]

Atakuma wrote...


I don't have any issue with DLC in general and I don't believe From Ashes is an essential peice of content. I do believe that once you start developing dlc along with the main gameyou've crossed the line between providing additional content and simply exploiting the consumer. Sure, there's no law or anything that goes against this sort of practice and Bioware can pretty much do whatever it wants, however that doesn't mean that I have to accept it.

Of course you plan ahead and think about what comes next - it's called a business model. Just because game development has several different milestones, that allow for parallelization of certain aspects of a game (like recording voice dialogues and writing a story before the actual programming and certification takes place) does not change that fact.