512 réponses à ce sujet

[Tipsyfresh]

scyphozoa wrote...

I wonder what it would take for people to believe content that is made with separate finances and by separate teams are in fact, separate projects. Would EA have to publish their financial records and timelines to prove to people that they are separate projects? Would that even be enough or would people just dismiss those records as lies?

People will believe or refuse to believe whatever they want. Never mind the fact that numerous developers who work with numerous publishers have gone on record describing how and why DLC works. People who don't want to believe what they have to say will simply dismiss them as "corporate shills."

If people aren't willing to be convinced then no amount of evidence will ever be enough. And if the evidence you require is a corporation's private financial records, then you should get used to being unconvinced, because corporate private records aren't released to customers in any industry, under any circumstances.

If your response to not having hard facts and evidence is to aggressively assume the worst and then blame companies for your theorized offenses, then you are probably out of luck.

...
Ok I'll bite. It's called coordination. Yea different teams work on different things. Cool, but these teams still communicate enough to finish the product. I think that's how they get the games made. Also I'm so overwhelmed by your hard facts right now.........

Modifié par Tipsyfresh, 21 août 2012 - 08:32 .

[Siran]

Tipsyfresh wrote...

@Siran
I just got a few things:

About A) to each their own. But you do say " because of its nature and scope". If by scope you mean importance or integration to the base game's plot, then I think not having it will "vastly diminish your experience". But still that's very subjective.

Sry, I wasn't as clear as I should have been on this: By scope I meant the integration into the main game, that Javik was so seemlessly tailored into ME3. That's why the model (and VO / script) were on the main disc, at least in parts. But I don't think, not having him would have diminished my experience. He had some good lines, but Kasumi and Zaeed had those, too. But that's my opinion.

About all ill say is IF the "script, content and voice work" were done and and no one had the foresight to plan ahead to have it as part of the base, that would seem a bit underhanded to say the least.

But don't you think part of a development plan is to look ahead and make preparations accordingly? Especially for the very first DLC you'd have to have a plan while working on the main game - I don't know, how much of the voice work was already done, but at least the script and the general extent of the content should have been finished at the time ME3 went into certification. That doesn't mean, that the work is done. It's part of many businesses to already have plans and designs etc. for "the next thing" even when working on "the current thing" - like a TV or car, most of the times there are aleady concepts of the next model in planning and pre-production when the current model has just been release. But I'm drifting, sry.

Also the comparison to cut scenes from movies- they were cut out(probably not for technical/deadline reasons either) and not added to the movie version later and sold as a different version...oh wait:( . But I still kinda see what you mean.

The movie example maybe wasn't the best one, but there are examples of stuff that was filmed but couldn't be done at the time (due to either time, technology or budget). For example the Jabba the Hutt scene with Han Solo in Episode IV, that was added in the Special Editions (maybe we'll someday see DLCs for Blu-Rays as well, given the right technology something like this could be later added to a film). Of course there are many examples of stuff that was cut due to pacing and story reasons, which should normally not apply to games, which is where the comparison falls short.

Modifié par Siran, 21 août 2012 - 08:22 .

[Tipsyfresh]

scyphozoa wrote...

If your response to not having hard facts and evidence is to aggressively assume the worst and then blame companies for your theorized offenses, then you are probably out of luck.

What does this mean? My response to you not having hard facts or my response to myself for not having hard facts? Also what's a hard fact? Do you really need to keep doing this?

Modified my earlier post best as I could for you. If your being serious then give me something I can respond to.

Modifié par Tipsyfresh, 21 août 2012 - 08:34 .

[Snypy]

JaegerBane wrote...

Snypy wrote...

Anyway, I don't understand what you're trying to say exactly. I mean, you obviously don't mind paying for the content. So, what troubles you about the Day One DLC? I personally think that it's much better to give players the choice to decide for themselves if the content is worth their money, than to increase the box price.

And I'd wager that was what the marketing people at EA thought too, that it was a risk to try and add it into the game and push its price up beyond the normal baseline price for a new AAA game.

Of course, that logic isn't going to fly with a lot of the complainers, as they've made the a priori judgement that they're entitled to everything and anything that was made in the development process - their argument would be that there should be no cost - either on top of the game or sold seperately. We aren't dealing with people who've thought this through, here.

As you say, the idea it was 'chopped out' is downright silly, but unfortunately a lot of the people who are most vocal about this stuff simply haven't got any idea as to how unlikely such an event would have been.

Yes. I completely understand that players want to buy a full game. Me too. The problem is the majority of players themselves don't actually know what a full game is. Javik definitely has an interesting supporting role in the story, but that doesn't make him a pivotal character. The prothean doesn't really affect how the game unfolds. He simply provides more insight and understanding. None of which is vital to an average player. Of course, average players don't usually use the BSN.

Additionally, many players don't have any programming knowledge or they don't know how the industry works nowadays, and that's okay. But then they read an article on the Internet where a wannabe expert on video games says that Javik is already on the retail disc. This guy shows a few lines of code, maybe a screenshot of the prothean. However, there is no information in the article about the fact that Javik can't speak, has no story to tell, and players can't get past Thessia mission. Logically, the conclusion of many is that BioWare just cut the character out of the main game to get more revenue. And whatever proof you show at this point won't change their minds.

Overall, I personally think BioWare marketing dept. did a bad job promoting the Day One DLC. They shloud've said (and maybe they did but I couldn't find it; edit: apparently, BW did say so on BNS) that the DLC doesn't affect the story in any major way, that it only provides more background information about the Mass Effect universe.

Modifié par Snypy, 21 août 2012 - 09:07 .

[Siran]

Snypy wrote...

They shloud've said (and maybe they did but I couldn't find it) that the DLC doesn't affect the story in any major way, that it only provides more background information about the Mass Effect universe.

Which Mike did:

"- The Collectors Edition has been advertised from the beginning as containing a bonus character/mission, but we were not at liberty to provide the details. The Prothean is optional content that is certainly designed to appeal to long-time fans, which is why he is part of the CE offering (the version many fans would be likely to purchase).  Mass Effect 3 is a complete – and a huge game - right out of the box."

Also notable:

"- The content in “From Ashes” was developed by a separate team (after the core game was finished) and not completed until well after the main game went into certification."

Modifié par Siran, 21 août 2012 - 08:52 .

[Tipsyfresh]

@ snyps
I'm on board with most if not all of what you just said. Mostly becaus it's at least consistent with what u and some other previously brought up -like if they'd had better PR, people would be better suited to know what they are buying instead ofbeing like omg the history of the galaxy only cost ten dollarslolz ( that was me).

[Snypy]

Siran wrote...

Snypy wrote...
...

Which Mike did:

"- The Collectors Edition has been advertised from the beginning as containing a bonus character/mission, but we were not at liberty to provide the details. The Prothean is optional content that is certainly designed to appeal to long-time fans, which is why he is part of the CE offering (the version many fans would be likely to purchase).  Mass Effect 3 is a complete – and a huge game - right out of the box."

Also notable:

"- The content in “From Ashes” was developed by a separate team (after the core game was finished) and not completed until well after the main game went into certification."

Thanks, Siran. But I think that they should've displayed this information on ME3 official page. Not many players visit BSN. I hadn't registered my ME3 here until I needed tech support.

Modifié par Snypy, 21 août 2012 - 09:03 .

[Siran]

Snypy wrote...

Thanks, Siran. But I think that they should've displayed this information on ME3 official page. Not many players visit BSN. I hadn't registered my ME3 here until I needed tech support.

It was picked up by several online magazines as well. But you're certainly right, it should have gotten a more prominent spot, especially since it was such a hot topic.

Modifié par Siran, 21 août 2012 - 09:07 .

[Tipsyfresh]

@Siran
Wow that link you posted seems to have foreshadowed this thread.


Check out the censored/edited post by Dionkey near the top of the first page, someone (msmp) a few comments down posted the original.  

Modifié par Tipsyfresh, 21 août 2012 - 09:14 .

[Siran]

Tipsyfresh wrote...


@Siran
Wow that link you posted seems to have foreshadowed this thread.

It's not like we're discussing something profoundly new here The 500+ pages that followed Mike's statement are proof of that. And it would have gone on far longer, had it not been closed by Chris as Mike made an update which sported several pages as well IIRC.

Modifié par Siran, 21 août 2012 - 09:20 .

[Tipsyfresh]

I know, but they released the article so back to the races ha.

[Snypy]

Siran wrote...
It was picked up by several online magazines as well. But you're certainly right, it should have gotten a more prominent spot, especially since it was such a hot topic.

Sure. I mean, I personally wasn't even looking for any information about the DLC back then. I trusted BioWare that From Ashes would be worth my money, and it was. It's just that some players (such as Tipsyfresh) would've liked to read the post by Michael Gamle before they had purchased the DLC.

Modifié par Snypy, 21 août 2012 - 09:20 .

[JaegerBane]

Tipsyfresh wrote...

There's no need to try and bully people into talking to you

I think you need to grow a thicker skin, Tipsy - you've thrown in cheap shots every time you've replied to my posts, and while I don't necessarily mind that, it is a bit rich to start playing the 'poor little me' act when you've responded to me in kind.

And it looks like you definitely tried to insult people that disagree with you (see pixies etc).

Then I'm afraid you've misunderstood me - I wasn't saying anyone believed in pixies, my point was that having an opinion doesn inherently have any value to an argument - since he'd tried to bring everyone's right to an opinion into an argument about the nature of DLC.

One reason I am unimpressed by what your saying is because its not interesting or new. The size of data bits and text? Yes technology gets better and we can put bigger things in smaller packages, ok.

This was in direct response to your assertion that DLC now is much smaller than old expansion packs. I was pointing out that wasn't true and backing that up with facts, not really sure how you'd justifiably take offence to that.

I don't care to know how video games are made, but I can purchase them, so I can comment on my satisfaction or dissatisfaction with a product and services. For the people that are making stuff up that they don't understand, yea stop please. But you don't need to dive into techspeak to join in on a discussion about the merits of dlc and day one dlc, you just don't.

You don't need to care about how video games are made, no. But when you start advocating an argument that conflicts with the established facts of game development, it becomes meaningless - blaming someone for pointing that out is silly.

Side note, i hope you didn't really dont think that I insulted you. You've done nothing but repeat other people's statements or misconstrue comments that don't agree with you. You've insulted the OP and you constantly claim that people aren't thinking logically, or that they are in fantasy land, or whatever.

I've called his argument into question. If you disagree with me, you're entirely free to debate it - but you can't expect to be taken seriously just saying 'NO YOU'RE WRONG' and then hide behind the claims you're being bullied.

It strikes me that you aren't really comfortable debating, so a piece of friendly advice - if you aren't comfortable with it, don't get involved.

[RebelTitan428]

lets face it, Javik was a dumb character that contradicts almost everything we know about the protheans. and that "return trip" to Eden Prime was a joke.

never once did i get the feeling " this is where all began"

[Cainne Chapel]

Why Rebel because it was different section? Eden Prime was pretty large.

Also what did Javik actually contradict about the protheans? He was merely a single prothean and a solider at that.

Do you know everything there is to know about other Humans simply based on yourself?. Besides we knew blessed little about the protheans really

[crypticcat 2o2p]

Whatever -- Any day1 DLC gives people the idea that they don't have the basic game-experience with the game on disk. It's an insidious idea that festers.

A selling tactic that should be as forbidden as sublimal advertizing.

[Tipsyfresh]

@ jaeger

I don't kow where you are coming from. There's no need to talk about learning how to debate. Also why do I need to grow thicker skin? I can't help but not be interested in what you have to say. And this is because I Know I haven't been saying, "no you're wrong". Actually that's what you've been saying, and then maybe providing some evidence that I don't care about. ( none of my points have been about data being cut out of the game) I don't care if there's proof or not, this discussion can go on without that kind of talk.

The reason I probably originally commented on one of your post is because it stuck out as rude and You probably used phrases that bug me, ( like saying you are incorrect on so many levels but then not really providing any substance). Its like you just want to have the last word. Even your most recent post Is suspect, "established facts of game development" what does that even mean? The only thing I'm advocating is discussion, no one is blaming you for anything.

I haven't thrown anything that wasn't tossed at me first. You say fantasy land, to me that's a disrespectful comment about how someone else thinks they deserve to be treated. Leave it at that, even if you don't agree. This is a forum not a self help seminar. And to say anything Like that about  them is to only be looking for attention or acceptance from other people viewing this thread. No need for that, but I can't stop you.



My apologies about the dlc/expansion, I was referring to the size of the expansion pack in comparison to the base game. And also referring to impact or connection to the base plot (i.e. DAOAwakening), but really even if I said "you're right," the point is still more about subjective experience, ethics and agency so it wouldn't hinder me.

So...I don't know.

Modifié par Tipsyfresh, 21 août 2012 - 06:46 .

[Tipsyfresh]

RebelTitan428 wrote...

lets face it, Javik was a dumb character that contradicts almost everything we know about the protheans. and that "return trip" to Eden Prime was a joke.

never once did i get the feeling " this is where all began"

Just a question?:

How would this be good for "long time fans"?

Like seriously? If we take m.gambles description of the dlc seriously (provided by siran or snyps, sry).

[JaegerBane]

RebelTitan428 wrote...

lets face it, Javik was a dumb character that contradicts almost everything we know about the protheans. and that "return trip" to Eden Prime was a joke.

never once did i get the feeling " this is where all began"

In your opinion - personally I felt Javik was a great character, his beam rifle ranks as my fave gun in the ME series and I really enjoyed the chance to see Prothean civilisation as it actually was, albeit briefly.

I'd agree the actual level was a little basic and definitely didn't live up to the general standard of level design in the game, but frankly, i didn't buy it for that (or more accurately, I wouldn't have - the DLC code came with my game).

[JaegerBane]

Tipsyfresh wrote...

@ jaeger

I don't kow where you are coming from. There's no need to talk about learning how to debate.<snip>

Ordinarily not, but when you start taking offence at someone simply stating facts, it implies that you don't really want to get involved in a debate, hence the comment. *I* don't really want to get into a debate about this but you appear to taking offence at a *lot* of stuff, and there comes a point when you have to question whether you're simply being too sensitive.

Coming on a public forum and challenging someone's viewpoint is inviting debate, so if you find that offensive or whatever then you've only got yourself to blame.

Regardless, we're going off topic here, so I'll leave it at that - if you disagree with any specific viewpoints of mine, or any facts I mention, you're perfectly entitled to challenge them, but just saying you don't accept them and trying to make the debate personal really isn't going to lead anywhere good.

[Tipsyfresh]

Sure jaeger, I made the debate personal and I took offense at facts./sarcasm

On topic: your facts aren't the problem, it's just that at least for my discussion, they don't apply in any significant way. 

Modifié par Tipsyfresh, 21 août 2012 - 08:01 .

[Snypy]

Guys, JaegerBane and Tipsyfresh, just let it go... agree to disagree.

[Grubas]

JaegerBane wrote...

RebelTitan428 wrote...

lets face it, Javik was a dumb character that contradicts almost everything we know about the protheans. and that "return trip" to Eden Prime was a joke.

never once did i get the feeling " this is where all began"

In your opinion - personally I felt Javik was a great character, his beam rifle ranks as my fave gun in the ME series and I really enjoyed the chance to see Prothean civilisation as it actually was, albeit briefly.

I'd agree the actual level was a little basic and definitely didn't live up to the general standard of level design in the game, but frankly, i didn't buy it for that (or more accurately, I wouldn't have - the DLC code came with my game).

The level was generic, nothing special. Not even a statue for the savior of Eden prime. I would argue that Zaeeds loyalty mission had more depth.