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Bioware, you cannot justify day 1 DLC


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#151
hoorayforicecream

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Mdoggy1214 wrote...

And exactly how does that justify nickle and diming the consumer? It's one thing to have cosmetic type dlc on day 1, or an extra side mission that doesn't effect the story at all. But to charge people extra for something that's very important to the lore of the franchise, that was also obviously developed before the release, is going too far. Your argument is "Well if it's important that's a good thing cause then people will buy it", but you're not truly thinking in the consumers best interest.


It doesn't. At no point are the consumers ever deprived the choice of purchasing DLC. If you don't feel that it is worth the money, then you don't purchase it. Clearly, there are plenty of others who disagree with that. ~40% of the people who bought ME3 also bought From Ashes. If they did not feel it was worth the money, they would not have done so.

The consumer will always want more. If I asked you if you wanted more DLC for free, I think nearly 100% of the consumers would say "yes". But there's a difference between looking out for the consumer and acting in a way that is simply financially unsustainable.

This is a post I wrote in a similar thread about the same topic.

Fewer people are buying console games year over year. It's a noted trend. Saying that people still buy games is true, but they are buying fewer games than they used to, and that ultimately hurts the company's revenue and thus profitability.

The traditional retail model for games is starting to break down. The costs of development, distribution, and marketing is outpacing the revenues, and it's becoming too risky. This is why there's such a sudden push for things like digital distribution, paid DLC, and microtransactions. The publishers are desperately searching for new ways to provide service/product for money, because the current model isn't sustainable in the long run. The most successful companies right now are sustaining themselves with these sorts of revenue streams (Valve, for example, publishes 90% of the digital games on PC, *and* makes millions from microtransactions).

Returning to the old model won't really work. There's no more room for a 2-million selling game to be called a huge success, unless they reduce the costs (CDPR is located in a nation where software engineers are paid $15-20k USD annually) or the development time (DA2), unless they find alternate revenue streams where players are willing to pay for more efficient-to-develop content like DLC.


I know it sucks. I know that you feel that you're being denied things that you feel should be in the game, and you long to return to the olden times when you could. But honestly, those days are gone because people just aren't buying enough games for developers to do it that way any more.

Do you honestly think that the publishers would be doing this if they didn't have to? EA's financials are in shambles because they can't get enough people to buy their games. And if it was just EA doing it, they'd probably stop if they really weren't making money from it. But it isn't just EA. THQ is considered by many to be a doomed company, because it had to do a reverse stock split to avoid delisting from the NASDAQ because of how low their stock was trading. Nintendo posted its first loss in 50 years. Funcom's stock lost 40% of its value because of lousy sales. Even with paid DLC, microtransactions, etc. they still aren't profitable. If it was really just greedy publishers trying to squeeze every last drop out of you, wouldn't they be making money hand over fist?

Right now, the publishers are scrambling to find ways to survive because the old business model isn't working any more. I know that you'd like it if they were, but people just aren't buying their games, so they are forced to look for other ways of getting money from their customers. And so we see things like paid services (Call of Duty Elite, Battlefield Premium), microtransactions (the aforementioned Valve hat sales), and paid DLC.

Want things to go back to the way they were? Get people to stop buying DLC, and buy more games.

Modifié par hoorayforicecream, 14 août 2012 - 10:28 .


#152
XqctaX

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DeathScepter wrote...

Listen to Ninja Stan, he has good points.

I am listening, but i also severly dissagree.
I think im just going to have to agree with stan to dissagree on this.

sadly for me this is more than i can handle, its a "gamebreaker" meening i feel like not beeing an customer atm.
im prolly going to buy the SP DLC you release for me3 becouse honestly i cant help it, if its story i want it, i really do.
and that becouse im heavily emotionally  invested in this franshise so i want the complete story.


but this kind of stuff together with the hole free to play, i cant support this.
i love you guys games but its to much about the fast buck rather than the perfect game.
i think i will not by the next game no matter how good it is out of principle.
and that not a good thing for either you or me.

anyways, thanks for talking with us stan, even thu its not a pleasant convo allways

#153
NKKKK

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I remember when companies used to release whole games

#154
XyleJKH

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:ph34r:[And the name-calling is still inappropriate. Fancy that.]:ph34r:

Modifié par Ninja Stan, 15 août 2012 - 12:06 .


#155
ManUnderMask

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XqctaX wrote...
thus forcing them to pay more to get that and for the full experience*


Wait, FORCING you? Really? Did I miss the news reports about EA reps busting into the houses of people who bought the game, putting a gun to their heads and forcing them to buy From Ashes? 

I bought From Ashes and I don't remember being FORCED.

Perhaps you should tone down the hyperbole.

#156
XqctaX

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hoorayforicecream wrote...

*snip*

Want things to go back to the way they were? Get people to stop buying DLC, and buy more games.

i accually think you right about....... pretty much your hole post.
i cut it down a bit becouse i wanted to add my thought without a huge post :)

i agree that i buy less abd less games these days,
not that i lack time to play. or money to buy games

what i lack is good games worth buying. so when one comes along ofc im going to buy DLC to make the game as good as possible when looking at the complete game with dlc.

problem is developers seem to slim games down/ throw some paint on a previous game
and add a number after the title, instead of taking the time to make a game that accually 
good enought to inspire purchases amongst the consumers...

i think thats a part fo the problem too, games are becomming lesser in quality and content in the sold version
and that makes even more customers turn away.

#157
oldag07

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I can sympathize with the people who feel cheated with day one DLC. And I would like game content for a cheaper price, but what isn't being mentioned on this board, is the fact that EA isn't making a net profit at the moment.
http://www.vgchartz....r-2011-quarter/

Obviously some of you are going to respond, "well if EA was better to its fans then it would make more money". I will ask you the question, how many of you who are complaining about this DLC coming out day one actually bought it anyways.

Of the bad practices out there, like child labor, strip mining, sweatshops, and the millions of unethical accounting tricks out there, this is probably on the bottom of that list of evils out there.

#158
XqctaX

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ManUnderMask wrote...

XqctaX wrote...
thus forcing them to pay more to get that and for the full experience*


Wait, FORCING you? Really? Did I miss the news reports about EA reps busting into the houses of people who bought the game, putting a gun to their heads and forcing them to buy From Ashes? 

I bought From Ashes and I don't remember being FORCED.

Perhaps you should tone down the hyperbole.

perhaps you should tone down the strawman and out of context arguing aswell.
forcing isnt confined to strong-armed. there is something as a psycological/emotional
pressure that in the end forces a reaction to an action that can be in the guise of a carot rather than a whip aswell.

want to argue about the use of a single word??? instead of the point i was making..
that is kinda meeningless. im pretty sure you understood my opinion about the subject.

Modifié par XqctaX, 14 août 2012 - 10:48 .


#159
BluRay

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oh c'mmon stop complaining this,the dlc went out free for collector's edition owners,for who doesn't purchased it,they uploated the dlc,very simply,they have to make money -.-

#160
Shadow Storm

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The slow release of DLC over time is mearly an attempt to draw back players that have become bored of the game and thus have left. If it is all released in one go then it would become boring very quickly...the less players left in the game the lower the quality and enjoyment of multiplayer and potential for extra money. As for single well it is a great way to make money on the side. lol ;)

#161
Guest_Guest12345_*

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XqctaX wrote...
there is something as a psycological/emotional 
pressure that in the end forces a reaction to an action that can be in the guise of a carot rather than a whip aswell.


No offense, but this isn't a reasonable response. Anyone saying that they are obligated or compelled to satiate their own desire to be entertained are not being reasonable. Its okay to enjoy a game or movie or franchise, it is not reasonable to act like you are addicted to entertainment and blame the developer for doing their job of making and selling entertaining content. Every human being is responsible for their actions, every consumer is expected to have at least enough self control to make reasonable and rational purchasing descisions.

#162
SP2219

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samurai crusade wrote...

You cannot justify this thread.

Bioware can do whatever they want. They have every right to make From Ashes a dlc the same way Zaeed and Kasumi were. The game is just fine without Javik, it was just a fan service to those wanting a prothean.

You are in the wrong era of video gaming if you want to preach about day 1 dlcs.
Personally, I hate day 1 updates and patches


Well that's interesting....  Game companies have infinite money appearing from nowhere so they can do whatever they want.  Seems reasonable.

Bioware cannot do whatever they want.  They are dependent on people buying their games if they want to continue to exist.  And this goes for every business in existence.  Yes, while there are indeed people who are fine with this sort of practice, I personally am not, and I think I might be speaking for several others, or this debate would not be occuring.

I can justify this thread, because it's my opinion.  Take it or leave it.
   

#163
XqctaX

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oldag07 wrote...

I can sympathize with the people who feel cheated with day one DLC. And I would like game content for a cheaper price, but what isn't being mentioned on this board, is the fact that EA isn't making a net profit at the moment.
http://www.vgchartz....r-2011-quarter/

Obviously some of you are going to respond, "well if EA was better to its fans then it would make more money". I will ask you the question, how many of you who are complaining about this DLC coming out day one actually bought it anyways.

Of the bad practices out there, like child labor, strip mining, sweatshops, and the millions of unethical accounting tricks out there, this is probably on the bottom of that list of evils out there.


 I bought the CE edition, pre-ordered. becouse i was an "shut up and take my money" fan.
seriously promoted BW to anyone and everyone that would listen. well pre me3..
got loads of Me merch aswell.

but it also kinda besides the hole argument, its like saying if you bought the DLC you cant complain
but me bying a product does not in anyway change in what way it was sold/made.

the other part kinda add up to. since there are far worse "wrongs" beeing made this one should be 
overlooked. or even more short ill say it like this. "2 wrongs dont make 1 right"

other worldly problems isnt what this forum is about to disscuss, so dont. adds nothing to this topic.

#164
XqctaX

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scyphozoa wrote...

XqctaX wrote...
there is something as a psycological/emotional 
pressure that in the end forces a reaction to an action that can be in the guise of a carot rather than a whip aswell.


No offense, but this isn't a reasonable response. Anyone saying that they are obligated or compelled to satiate their own desire to be entertained are not being reasonable. Its okay to enjoy a game or movie or franchise, it is not reasonable to act like you are addicted to entertainment and blame the developer for doing their job of making and selling entertaining content. Every human being is responsible for their actions, every consumer is expected to have at least enough self control to make reasonable and rational purchasing descisions.

im not blaming them for my actions. nor am i claming to be addictive.I think you missunderstod what i ment.
what im saying is that they are taking advantige of human nature to explore immoral business practises.

so im critisicing these business practises. not blaiming them for my actions. that something compleatly
different and i feel like you putting meening to my words that isnt there and then attacking that missrepresentation
of what i said. 

its very reasonable to want more of something you like, that is human nature in its very essens,
but its not about addiction its basic psycology and human behaviour.

#165
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Ok, but just to be clear, these are your words, so you're not confused as to how I drew the conclusion of my above post,

XqctaX wrote...
there is something as a psycological/emotional 
pressure that in the end forces a reaction to an action that can be in the guise of a carot rather than a whip aswell.


Nothing is forcing you but yourself and your own desire to be entertained. Like I said, there is nothing wrong with wanting to be entertained. There is something wrong with wanting to be entertained so much that you feel "forced" to buy something. 

If you make yourself that vulnerable to a company, then you are showing that company how you are willing to be treated.

Modifié par scyphozoa, 14 août 2012 - 11:10 .


#166
Spanishcat

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I'm fairly sure - this many pages in - all that can be said, has been said.

So I'll agree with everyone who said: it's the consumers choice to buy or ignore day1 DLC - but, it *was* also a bit cheeky of whoever decided to go with From Ashes on day1. Personally, I've loved the ME franchise (ditto DA), and so I'm fine with paying for more content. Other games which had DLC very close to launch (such as L.A. Noire)? I've ignored additional content.

No harm, no foul.

#167
XyleJKH

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I call em add as I see them Stan.
Just saying...
Name calling.... Get over yourself
The fact is everybody BioWare thinks day 1dlc that you pay for is the way to go. What would happen if they did day 1 dlc for ME1? ME2?? They did but you needed an online pass... Which was.. alright, if you bought the game new
Keep up the gouging BioWare. You can sprinkle the hell out of it all you want, it's a bad move. It doesn't matter much to me, I got the CE, also I am somewhat well off. Some members, fans etc are not that well off. But keep on squeezing...

#168
SnakeEyes

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Felis Menari wrote...

ZombieGambit wrote...

Let's say the actual development cycle for a game is 1 year and 10 months, but it has another 2-3 months before release, which is mostly bug testing etc. Instead of sending all those programmers home, they are instead tasked with creating extra content that will not be on the disc, because the game is already finished, it's just not "golden" yet.

That is how Day 1 DLC is created and instead of waiting 1 or 2 months before releasing it to keep up appearances, they released is as soon as possible, as both a show of continued game support to the fans and to the fans and it makes good business sense because release is when the game is most hyped up and popular.

It's not a perfect system, but it's also not an evil money grubbing one that most ignorant people think it is either.


How so many people don't understand this is astounding.

Yup. Some people just complain without knowing how the development cycle works for game production. It's amazing how ignorant people are, when they start complaining.

#169
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Day 1 DLC is smart because when people buy a game they'd rather buy it complete, not incomplete.

More than half the buyers don't finish the game. They play it for a while and lose interest because not everybody becomes a fan. And people who lost interest are very unlikely to buy DLC two months after they stopped playing.

By having it available from the beginning they sell it not only to fans but also to the parents buying the game as a present for the kid and to the casual buyer who takes the game off the shelf because the cover is nice.

Modifié par Nyoka, 15 août 2012 - 01:48 .


#170
Lime The Dragon

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Day 1 DLC is justified because they have a specific team that develops and creates the main game. The game is priced to pay this team, and the resources for this game.

There is a separate team that created single player DLCs, and as any smart company will do, they planned ahead, and created their first DLC, via this separate team, with separate resources. This is why the DLC also costs money. Separate team, separate resources, separate sales, separate price.

Just because a large number of people are narrowminded, and cheap, that think all additional content released for a game is taken away from the original game.. does not make the company wrong.

Simply put, 8 years ago, you would've gotten Mass Effect 3 with no DLC. No extra content. No extended ending. No multiplayer expansions. No Javik. Just because you want to use a twisted variation of the truth, that a game is incomplete without DLC, does not make it true.

#171
Tipsyfresh

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Haha @ lime...

#172
psrz

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Spanishcat wrote...

I'm fairly sure - this many pages in - all that can be said, has been said.

So I'll agree with everyone who said: it's the consumers choice to buy or ignore day1 DLC - but, it *was* also a bit cheeky of whoever decided to go with From Ashes on day1. Personally, I've loved the ME franchise (ditto DA), and so I'm fine with paying for more content. Other games which had DLC very close to launch (such as L.A. Noire)? I've ignored additional content.

No harm, no foul.


Overlord for ME2 is optional content in every sense of the word. 
From the Ashes for ME3 ? hmmm.... you can say it's optional because it was cut from the game and sold separately so you can choose if you buy it or not. But the thing is, it has really important content about the Protheans and also the Reapers, which are a big part of ME lore, Technically is optional content, but dishonest to say it is IMO

#173
Tipsyfresh

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 Yea if I'd paid for overlord...:unsure:

#174
Tacoking85

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I thought From Ashes DLC was semi-important to the lore of the ME universe; so much so that it should have been included in the main game.

There could have been any number of missions, guns, skins and even characters that could work as stand alone 'extra' DLC, while not making it feel like the main game is missing out. Then again, people would be less likely to buy it.

ugh

#175
X-JIDE

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To be honest here Day 1 DLC in general isn’t a problem it’s the way they do it which is the issue.
It was done right in Mass Effect 2.

I liked that Zaeed was free with every new copy of ME2, and if you bought a used copy you have to pay extra to unlock Zaeed plus other DLC with the Cerberus Network. That seems right and justified to Bioware.

Thankfully for Mass Effect 3 I bought the Collector’s Edition and didn’t have to pay anything extra.
But that’s not the point. The fact you have to pay a high price like $10 is what bothers me the most.
Why $10? Why not the same price as Kasumi? Kasumi has basically the same amount of material as From Ashes.

If anything it was the price tag which would stop me from buying this.
The amount of Content in From Ashes (storywise) doesn’t justify the price tag.

I’m not too sure how Bioware decide what the price tag is but surely it was a bit too much to ask for.
But it mainly depends whether to the consumer it’s worth the purchase or not. It’s all about choice, you can choose to buy it or not that’s the beauty of DLC.

Modifié par X-JIDE, 15 août 2012 - 02:55 .